Compensating for hearing loss in one ear
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 109 Registered: Jun-05 | didnt know whether to put this under amps or acoustics, but here's the story. i've self-diagnosed a loss of upper freqency hearing in my right ear, about 8db from 8khz and up. can hear it in music, mainly with cymbals being shifted left of where they should be, and a sort of 'closed in' feeling on my right side. (can be alleviated by cupping my hand behind the ear) so i'm thinking of ways to offset this hearing loss. obviously i need to boose the freqency in the 8khz and up range. i though if i use my amps(arcam A85) tone controlls and booste the treble(7-10khz according to arcam) and then put up some sound absorbing materials on the left side of the room it might help. (not sure what materials would only absorb above 7khz?) but then i thought i could use my amp, well two amps actually. as far as i know there are no amps with seperate tone controlls for left and right channels, so i would use one integrated amp for the left channel, and the other (with trebel boosed) for the right channel. would this work? would it have any unwanted side effects re imaging or anything else? this would leave one channel in each amp spare, so i thought i could use these to run surrounds. but i'm wondering if running two very different signals through the same amp might effect the front speakers. i'm thinking here of something like channel bleed-though/cross-talk, though i dont know exactly what this is.(it might effect multichannel, but i'm guessing that in two-channel mode there should be even less of the cross-talk than if i was using a regular, single integrated setup, i.e i would see the same benefits as monoblocking?) any opinion on my rather unusual setup would be appreciated, b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8163 Registered: May-04 | In the past some pre amps and integarted amps have employed separate tone controls for left and right channel. McIntosh, Mrarantz, Sansui and Yamaha all come to mind. There are probably still a few that have the same arrangement, but I don't know off hand which to suggest. Most stereo equalizers will provide individual adjustments for each channel. There should be little problem of bleed through or cross talk between the channels of a well built stereo amplifier. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 110 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks as always jan. what do you mean by stereo equalizers? external parrametric equalizer? i have a $100 behringer parrametric eq but wouldnt want to use it on anything other than a bub. i just had a look at the MA6100 and it says: Dual concentric tone controls +16dB to -16dB. LF filter 50Hz at 12dB/oct. HF filter 7k at 12dB/oct. Presence boost 4dB at 1.5k. does 'dual concentric' mean sperate for each channel? interestingly i see the MA6200 has "Program equalizer: 30, 150, 500, 1500 and 10,000Hz boost or cut 12dB" 10khz might fit the bill even better. What you think about pairing one of these old macs with dynaudio focus 140's? any idea? cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2030 Registered: Dec-04 | Bvan, I feel your pain, although(luckily?) in both ears. The program eq in the MA6200 is not what you are seeking, although any time the Mac is in the room, things get better. A high quality EQ seems to be in order, acompromise, yes, but one of necessity. That is what EQ's are made for, to facilitate room incongruities, or listener position. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8170 Registered: May-04 | Dual concentric is the ticket! That should give you left/right independent tone controls. The 6200 has the same arrangement for its bass and treble controls but the (graphic) program equalizer is set to equally affect both channels. Its purpose was meant for just what Mac implies with the name, it should be used to balance program material where both channels are likely to benefit from the same amount of compensation. Decent graphic eq's are out there in the professional market for not many dollars. Parametrics cost more but do a better overall job. You'll just have to try one to hear for your self if the benefits outweigh the possible phase problems the EQ might introduce. With a mild boost in the upper frequencies on one channel only an EQ should be fairly benign in a system. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8171 Registered: May-04 | An alternative might be to do some surgery on your speakers and bring the frequencies up through passive networks. Since most mid and high frequency drivers are more efficient than a woofer, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 112 Registered: Jun-05 | many options it seems. i even wonder about surgery to the amp, modifying or replacing the tone contol filter thingy. not myself, but if i run across a diy'er i'll see what they think. not in any hurry. or what about a second tweeter sitting on top of the speaker cabnet like a super tweeter, with a crossover designed to only high pass the frequencies i'm lacking? i could even possition the tweeter on the side so there is less of its signal going into my good ear. would it be easy for someone with skills to design me a custom filter? at least this way i dont tinker with the signal to my mains. i'm determined to somehow get my hearing back to how it was. surrender is not an option. cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8178 Registered: May-04 | You could modify the amp though that is going to take far more surgery and have more harmful effects overall than altering the crossover to the speaker. And, you'll probably need the EQ to establish just how much boost you require in the first place. Adding another tweeter is not the route I would take when the tweeter you already have can probably be brought up in level. Adding another tweeter will not change the level of the signal by any appreciable margin but will screw with the crossover's operation. Adding another tweeter will probably also not be beneficial to the soundstage/imaging department of your system. The same problem exists with treating only one side of your room. Soundstaging and so forth rely on symetry in the manner in which you perceive both the direct and refelcted signals. Anything which alters this relationship between channels will harm what the speaker designer achieved. "Super" tweeters are meant to be just that, a driver which handles the frequencies "superior" (higher order) to the upper range of your existsing tweeter, not play the same frequencies. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 117 Registered: Jun-05 | o.k scratch the amp surgery. yeah, i had worries about loosing symetry in the room. even achieving my goal of identical subjective freq responses from both speaker by using some very light, HF absorbtion, it might introduce uneven levels of defracted vs direct sound heard by each ear, and would have a deleterious effect on the soundstage that would not show up in any measurements. if i'm imagining it correctly? i realize that having two tweeters playing at say 80db doesnt increase the sound level to more than 83db(is that right?), but if one is playing at 80 and the other 88, would i then acieve my goal of boosting the net level by 8db? i dont listen too loud so this should be achievable. i have a spare dynaudio tweeter at home in south africa from an old pair of audience 50's i used to have. might give it a try. i'l build a small external cabnet for it and move it around and see if i can minimise any unwanted phase and soundstaging problems. how did you mean it would screw with the crossover's operation, you mean the crossover of the focus speakers? cause i was thinking of having a seperate external crossover for the extra tweeter so that i would not be modifying the main speakers or the signal they receive in any way. you still think its not a good idea? i'll probably give it a try in a few months when i get home as i got nothing to loose. infact i'll probably learn a bit and should be fun. my first d.i.y speaker project  cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8188 Registered: May-04 | I still think it's not a good idea. Like I said, I would simply try to raise the level of the existing tweeter before I did anything that altered the physical design of the speaker. That should be much simpler and, in my opinion, more effective. You might send a message to Tim to ask his opinion. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 865 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi there. I'm reluctant to suggest adding a top mount tweeter to one speaker also. Typically, those are used to fill in missing frequencies above where the main system rolls off. "Doubling up" may cause cancellation issues in which case the cure would be worse than the disease. A more likely solution is a parametric equalizer that can boost a band of frequencies. That doesn't have to be expensive and many people buy the affordable Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro just to use the EQ that's built in to it. If you would still prefer to try the extra tweeter route there is an inexpensive one available from HiVi for about $15. http://www.madisound.com/pdf/hivi/tn28.pdf Not too much to risk just to find out if it's what you want. Quality top mounts run in excess of $140 and up. You'll have to come up with a suitable filter, generally just a single cap and resistor will get you started. Most people don't have a handful of those laying around to experiment with. Perhaps starting with a 1uF cap between the positive terminal and your input would be enough. The HiVi is rated at 90db/w so a small (2 ohm?) 10-15w resistor may be needed. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8199 Registered: May-04 | Except the idea would be to have the "new" tweeter playing at a slightly high level anyway; no? |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 120 Registered: Jun-05 | took your advice jan and sent tim a p.m. seems you were right. "Except the idea would be to have the "new" tweeter playing at a slightly high level anyway; no?" you referring to tims last sentence? i still need to decipher what it means, but if youre both talking about achieving the correct volume on the new tweeter, i was going to drive it with its own integtrated amp so i can control gain. back to your original suggestion of passive networks jan, could i use one externally, upstream of the speakers binding posts? something to attenuate frequencies bellow 8khz, then i just fiddle with the ballance controll on the amp. i dont want to have to hack open my speakers. cheers b. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 121 Registered: Jun-05 | one other question, if i were to go the route of using one integrated amp for the left channel and one for the right, would engaging the tone controls of just one amp delay the signal passing through that amp and case phase or timing problems? b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8201 Registered: May-04 | When you say you're going to use a separate integrated amplifier for the new tweeter, I assume you mean to drive the one channel not just the super tweeter. Would the tone controls affect the phasing of the system? Probably not as much as two different amplifiers, one on each channel. Tone controls have the worst effects on phasing when they are asked to alter the singal by significant amounts and most particularly in the low frequenices. But tone controls are not all equal so there is no simple answer to the question. Tim should add some comments here also, but I would not try to attentuate the signals beneath 8kHz. It will be difficult to evenly attentuate several octaves of the speaker's response. Raising the tweeter level up to where it naturally operates would seem the better option. You will have to get into the enclosure to adjust the level on the tweeter if you use the original driver. Adding a super tweeter can be no more than the cap and resistor Tim mentioned, depending on the results you want to achieve. This can be tacked on to the external binding posts of the speaker. The cap will filter the low frequencies and the resistor will drop the voltage going to the driver. I would guess an L-pad would be a good idea to start until you establish a level you feel is correct and then you can solder in the appropriate value resistor by measuring the value of the L-pad's setting. Since this is a "suck it and see" type of operation, you are probably going to have to experiment with a few options. Removing either the woofer or the terminal cup is probably the easiest way to gain access to the crossover. Adjusting the level of the existing tweeter is likely to be not much more than removing the padding resistor from the current crossover. That should raise the level of the tweeter from the point where it crosses over from the lower frequency driver. (If that's at 2kHz and you don't need the rise to begin until 8kHz, you will need to adjust some other levels. Though, what there is to be "heard" by raisng the frequency level above 8kHz is questionable to begin with. You are dealing with upper harmonics at that frequency and above.) After that, you will merely have to play with the components since all this is based on a self diagnosed frequency point and level for your hearing loss. In essence, you are making this up as you go along. If you are unsure of how to manipulate the crossover to get the results you desire, and it is easy to destroy the benefits of a good crossover, an external EQ or tone control in the amplification path would probably be the easiest route to success. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 868 Registered: Dec-03 | Agreed. Changing the existing crossover is scary territory to be entering if you're tuning by ear. Plus, I'm guessing that the designer of the 140s spent some fair amount of time getting them to sound good. While someone could change them to suit a particular preference most changes would cause more harm than good. Resistors don't change phase but they can shift the crossover point. The suggestion of an adjustable L-pad is very good. Unless you really want to get into redesigning the crossover it may be best to just attach a top-mount tweeter to the speakers binding posts with a cap and L-pad in between adjusting the L-pad to suit your taste. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 122 Registered: Jun-05 | "When you say you're going to use a separate integrated amplifier for the new tweeter, I assume you mean to drive the one channel not just the super tweeter." i was actually thinking of having an amp entirely for the extra tweeter, so that i can easily get the tweeter level matched. last night i hooked up a behringer bfd to the right channel. unfortunatly i didnt have enough interconnects to run both channels through the bfd, so there are big phase problems obviously. it sounded pretty shitty. but with a simple 8db booste centred at 10khz it dd sound much more ballanced in the high frequencies. i dont want to use the bfd on the main speakers, so i'm thinking now that the best bet might be to have the external tweeter driven by its own amp and using the bfd as a high-pass filter. i know the bfd does delay the signal somewhat(says so in the manual) so there will be phase problems but at least i'll be able to move the tweeter around a bit to see if i can minimise this(if i had a receiver with channel delay that might be the trick). and i wont have to buy any new components or mess with my speaker this way. thanks again for the help. b. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4100 Registered: Dec-03 | Bvan, First, let me say I have a similar loss of high-frequency sensitivity, also in the right ear. I have had it for years, and it does not seem to progress, which is good. Let me assume it is not such a problem that one needs hearing aid; typically people need these, eventually, when the hearing loss has progressed, and the loss becomes so serious that one cannot follow a conversation, for example. Please consider that your brain has already learned to compensate for the loss. If the objective of HiFi is to deliver the actual sound, then there is not much point in increasing the gain in the right channel over the attenuated frequency range: what you will hear, then, will not be what you would hear at the performance. The other point to make is that direction of a sound source if perceived entirely throught phase differences, not through amplitude, or volume differences. To demonstrate this, try covering one ear completely: it will not produce the effect of everything moving to one side. Rather, you lose the ability to tell direction at all. Probably this will be more obvious if you cover the good ear than if you cover the "bad" one. But again, the direction, all around, is either there, or it isn't. I think you will find that the sound stage in music is not at all skewed by half-covering one ear, deceasing the amplitude at the ear-drum. If I am right, then then there is no skewing caused by partial frequency loss in one ear, either. All the frequency loss might do is raise the threshold of perception of direction. And it is not just one direction; it is all directions. So it doesn't matter which ear is "bad" ;- the overall effect of the is sort of hearing loss is just to increasing the volume threshold of directionality. In my opinion, the best thing to do is simply to make sure the volume is high enough to create a realistic sound stage. This volume setting might be a tad higher for you and me than for people with perfect hearing, but probably not much, and, anyway, one usually listens at levels comfortably above that. I say all this because for years I tipped the amplifier balance control a bit to the right. It really didn't do anything except make me feel I had done something. Then I thought about it, remembered that phase, not amplitude, gives direction, and decided it didn't make sense, in the first place. I am now quite happy with an amp with no balance control at all. Cupping one ear doesn't make much difference, to music, in my experience, except to create the impression of listening with my ear cupped. I find cupping the "bad" ear (or even the "good" one) can help me hear faint sounds, say a quiet voice, in a room with background air conditioning or a noisy projector fan. But you would get rid of those, first, at a musical concert - don't you think? There would be no benefit, only cost, from getting right-stage performers to play louder. So;- enjoy the music. If it is difficult to hear, first try to eliminate background noise. When that is done the best level practical, just turn up the music until it sounds good. There is just as much pleasure in music for us as for anyone else. Hope that helps. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8207 Registered: May-04 | Since the issue og cupping your ear has been addressed twice in this thread, let me state the obvious. If that approach works to mitigate the effects of your problem, that is the simplest and most benign way to approach the problem. There will be no phase problems and no question of surgically altering any component. There were "tweaks" sold in the 1990's which involved placing a leather ear piece shaped roughly like a cupped hand over and behind your ear. I still have a pair and use them on occasion when auditioning a new product or recording. Such a product could easily be fashioned by any competent crafter. It might look funny to anyone observing your listening habits but would be effective and would not alter the perception of the system for any other listener. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 123 Registered: Jun-05 | LOL yeah, i thought of making a one-eared hat of sorts but then thought about what my fiancee would say. but i'm reconcidering it. maybe i'll hide it under the couch for when she's not there. i've been canvassing opinions elsewhere and most people are agreeing with john that i should learn to live with it. and youre right john, images dont shift as much as i'd though. the soundstage does feel unballanced though, like theres not as much there on the right side somehow. maybe my brain needs more time to adjust. and hopefully its not progressive. i'll wait the three months till i get my hands on my old tweeters and see if i can do just that. its a strance thing my ear problems, all started a year ago after a night out clubbing. tinnitus(which has largely gone- thankfully), mild hyperaccusis in my left ear, and now some hearing loss in my right ear. i also have a feeling of 'fullness' in the right ear which has been off and on the last year. i think this makes the slight hearing loss a bit more noticable as i 'feel' deaf in the ear even in a totally quiet environment. i went to an ent specialist in the last year and did a hearing test. they said i had the hearing of a 10 year old. but i found out just recently that they only measured me to 6khz. i think ears are possible the most neglected 'component' in most peoples systems. something you often only realize when its too late. i'm counting myself lucky though, when reading up on ear problems i read too many accounts of people with severe cases of tinnitus and hyperaccusis. in utter seriousness, there is nothing i fear more, its right up there with motor neuron disease as something you dont even wish on your worst enemies. my frineds now all get etymotic audiophile earplugs for birthdays and christmass. ($10, check em out at etymotic.com) enough worrying my side, its sunday evening and i'm going to pour meself a glass of red and put on my latest aquistion: mingus's black saint and lady sinner. evenin' all b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8215 Registered: May-04 | Dealing with tinnitus has been a twenty year plus ordeal for me. At times it can be quite distracting though I have largely learned to listen through the signal. I have nowhere near the worst case scenario however. With a fullness in the ear, I would suggest you see an ENT specialist. You might have severe wax or fluid build up or a low grade infection going on in there. There could be worse problems such as some nerve damage from the clubbing. But a thorough work up would be worth your while to avoid further porblems. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4105 Registered: Dec-03 | I had another thought, and make a brief point. If you listen on headphones, I can see some point in tweaking the channels, perhaps some sort of graphic equalizer would do it. But, when you listen to sound from two loudspeakers, then both ears detect sound from both speakers. The sounds arrive at slightly different times at each ear, of course, which contributes mostly to the phase difference that is the cue to the direction of the source. That is why covering one ear seems make the sound directionless instead of skewed; there is no longer a phase difference for the brain to process. It is also why there is no directionality in low frequencies, and it does not matter so much where you put a sub;- the wavelength becomes too long, many times the distance between your ears, for there to be any difference in their response. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 124 Registered: Jun-05 | sympathies jan. i've wondered if tinnitus effects what i'm hearing from the speakers. in theory there should be a slight loss of perceived low-level detail, especially in the frequenct range that coincides with the tinnitus, but i'm not sure it actually does effect my listning, at least my enjoyment. granted, i have a mild case, and maybe some detail is being obscured, but i've realized that it is impossible to hear both the music and the tinnitus at the same time. if i'm paying attention to the music then i'm not hearing the tinnitus, and visa vera. unfortunalely there is a masochistic tendancy to deliberately listen to the tinitus every now and then, just to see if its still there and how bad it is that day. so i find it does require a bit extra concentration on/absorbtion in the music not to let the tinnitus bother me. cheer, b. thanks for the thoughts john |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 127 Registered: Jun-05 | one more thought, two actually. how about toeing in only the right speaker for a brighter right channel? will this cause any unwanted side effects? and what about keeping the grill covers on the left speaker to damp it down? what frequencies does grill cover cloth usually attenuate? cheers b. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 886 Registered: Dec-03 | Off axis listening generally attenuates the upper frequencies and may have an effect on the frequencies near the crossover point. Grill cloth has minimal effects, mildly attenuating only the highest frequencies. This is why it can be helpful for simbilance in some situations. It's the grill frame that creates the most interference on the front baffle. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8256 Registered: May-04 | You can try toe in on one speaker only, but it will probably affect the soundstaging to some extent while only making minor differences in frequency balance. Proper speaker set up suggests you have as much symetry as possible so all direct and indirect sounds arrive at your ears at exactly the same time. Otherwise phase relationships between shared signals are distorted and the ability of the system to focus the sound is lessened. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4124 Registered: Dec-03 | Bvan; you have high quality feedback from Tim and Jan. Whatever one's hearing, the best place to be, for stereo, is equidistant from the two speakers, and on their axes. With most speakers, the stereo sound field is better if you listen from a position where you are not closer to the speakers than the point where their axes intersect. If I may restate my opinion: Deafness and tinnitus are not conditions the HiFi system can compensate for, except if you find come nice, involving music, and play it comfortably loud. The effect will be psychological, but that's OK, that's what music is for. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2198 Registered: Dec-04 | Bvan, as the thread has wandered along, I have gathered some thought and opinions myself, as the hearing comes and goes. At the end of the road, if you can still molify your musical needs, satisfy your inner musicality enough to wave an 'air baton' and enjoy the blast that music can deliver, even in slightly uneven doses, then take all of the proffers of the music, roll them up in a big old bag, and use the notes the harmonies and the love of music as a pillow. And let the music play in perfection in your dreams, just like people with perfect hearing.However they may have less appreciation than someone like yourself. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 128 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks for the thoughts all. i've come to some sort of acceptance now. and i dont think its anything too severe that i'm accepting as my hearing is still very good on the whole. if i ever get to miss 20/20 hearing i'll spend my efforts in aquiring a good set of headphones and an equalizer. apparently that can fix most hearing problems. cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1360 Registered: Sep-04 | Bvan, I find it very odd that your ENT specialist only tested you to 6khz. You should really have a proper test to check the rest of the frequency range in bth ears. Jan pointed out something else could be going on such as low grade infection and/or wax build-up. If it's something as simple as this (very possible), then you really can resolve the problem and have a far better HiFi solution by not having the filters, messing the room around (something I'm sure you wouldn't want to do to the fiancee) or any other skewing solution you come up with! Get a proper test first! Then you can look at solving the problem. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 167 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks for your concern. i have come the conclusion(self diagnosis again) that is is something called 'glue ear', a chronic infection of the middle ear. it can have no other symptoms other than reduced hearing loss and a feeling of fullness i.e no pain or discomfort. glue ear can also last up to a year or more, which is the case for me. i arived at this conclusion as i ocasionally have some days where my ear doesnt feel blocked, and doing an online hearing test(up to 20k) showed identical hearing in both ears on these days.(these diy tests are not good for showing absolute hearing loss but can easily show relitive differences between ears) apparently theres not much to do but wait it out. none the less i'll get a profesional opinion when i'm back in s.a in july(cheaper there) thanks again, b p.s after much phoning around here in copenhagen i was unable to find anyone able to test over 8k. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1367 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm... Ah well, I hope it all works out in the end. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: NoutPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | i have come the conclusion(self diagnosis again) that is is something called 'glue ear', a chronic infection of the middle ear. How old are you then Bvan if I may ask? "Glue ear rarely persists in children over the age of eight" http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/23068746/ I was curious because ocasionally I have trouble too with my hearing (left ear), the same trouble you describe, but I don't think it is "Glue ear" (although the symptoms described are identical to the symptoms I'm having) I would see a doctor if I were you, I'm going to see one too. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 171 Registered: Jun-05 | i'm certainly over the age of 8 31 to be exact. i did read that too, but i'm guessing i might be one of the rarer cases. hoping anyway. all the googling i did and i couldnt find any other likely causes. but i will see a doc. i'm a little concerned because i read often that a rapid onset of hearing loss can be sometimes caused by viral infections, which are degenerative if not treated to immediately. let me know if you get to the bottom of your problem. i'll wait mine out another 7 weeks till i'm on more familiar turf i think. cheers for that b |
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