Rega RB250 and Moving Coil cartridges
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 20 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi, I have a(some) question(s) for y'all vinyl junkies out there. C'mon now don't be bashful.... I own a 1987 Linn LP12 Valhalla (pre-Cirkus), I am the original owner, and it has been well looked after, and it also spends a lot of time packed away in its original Linn packaging. Also I should mention at the moment I have a Akito (MK1) tonearm, and a Nagaoka-Stilton TS-12 Boron MM cartridge (1993 vintage, but hardly ever used). One other detail is that my LP12 is of the type that has reinforced plinth corner braces fitted from the factory. Now from my pre-CD days, I have a reasonable collection of LP records. In the medium term I would like to get back to listening to my vinyl. I would also perhaps like to buy some more used vinyl, if I can find it in reasonable quality. (In general I find vinyl much more engaging with older recordings, and also much more forgiving of poor recordings (like my Clash albums!!!)). Now I am more than happy to stick with the Linn LP12, I know its characteristics and although there are newer more advanced TTs out there, bottom line is that I feel I can live with the LP12 as a platform for my vinyl listening. Having said all of the above, I would like to upgrade my current vinyl setup, starting with the tonearm. Now since funds are limited I am thinking of a Origin Live modified Rega RB250, or a Mitchel Technoarm (also a RB250 variant). Of course I feel that the Ekos is a natural match, since it was engineered with the LP12 in mind, but just find that even a used Ekos is too costly for me. The seem to go for 8-900 pounds (GBP) on EBay that is. I will probably go for a fully modded RB250, so that means structural mod, interior and exterior wiring and slotted arm tube. First question, is the modded RB250 a good match for the LP12, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Second question. Now before I die I would like to have first hand experience of a decent MC cartridge. When it comes to phono carts, there seems to be cap on the performance of MM carts, with carts like the Shure V being an example of an ultimate MM. So when you venture above the foothills of the phono world, it seems to be MCs all the way. So my second question is, can a fully modded RB250 cope with a 'decent' MC? Now when I say decent MC, what I have in mind is something like the following: Shelter 501 MK-II, Benz Micro Ace, AT OC9-ML II, and Dynavcector Karat 17d MKII Any help will be gratefully received, kindest thanks in advance -Rav |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2017 Registered: Dec-04 | Rav, i bet you will get an answer or two here, just not from me. Say it with me 'I am an audiophiliac', and I am OK with that. Dude, you are Smokin'! Here comes Jan... Really good to have you here, Rav. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8164 Registered: May-04 | Thanks for the ... er, ... introduction there, Nuck. The RB250 will work on the Linn though I'm not sure what actual gains you'll make over your present arm. Better midrange I suppose and a slightly more controlled bass response. I would surely discuss this with a retailer before spending the money for a Rega arm, at least the RB250. Don't get me wrong, I think the Rega arm is the best value item in hifi and I've used a RB300 almost since the day it came out. It has very good but not great detail retrieval and lacks somewhat in extension and control in the lowest and highest octaves only when compared to the far more expensive options. It's midrange, like all Rega products, is beguilling. However, if you want a MC cartridge for its detail and smoothness, then why pair it with an arm that lacks the ability to extract the fine detail and ultimate smoothness? The RB250 will deal well with the cartridges you've mentioned, should you choose to go that route. I think I would recommend a better tonearm, even a better Rega tonearm*, and one of the better Grados. Being an induced magnet design, the Grados will give a sound very much like a MC but with more compatibility between arms. However, if your desire for a MC is similar to wanting an E type Jaguar roadster before they die, ... *I've not seen a mod on a Rega arm which addresses the bearings and this is where the RB250/300 still lacks when compared to the best arms. Without the finer bearing tolerances of at least the better Rega arms, you are fighting a bit of a loosing battle when trying to pull the most from the record groove. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 749 Registered: Feb-04 | Rav, You didn't mention what type of phono preamp you're using. If you're intent on trying a low output MC cartridge, you'll have to start thinking about getting a phono pre with sufficient gain (in the 60dB range). So that would be a third element to think about (cart, arm, pre). IMO there are better MM carts than the Shure V. The Sumiko Blackbird for one shares a lot of the characteristics of a LO MC cart, both good (excellent reproduction of details) and bad (sounds bright to my ears, but lots of people love its sound). Also, if you do decide to go with the Shelter or the Dynavector, get advice from the dealer on whether a headshell weight is required. Both are fairly lightweight carts and I believe the Rega is a low mass arm. You might need extra weight to avoid potential resonance problems. I've tried MM, high output MC and low output MC carts on my VPI table. I don't know if any one type is clearly superior to another. I think the characteristics of a particular model of cart make more of a difference than type (MM/MC), at least in the sub-grand price range. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 23 Registered: Mar-06 | Nuck: thanks dude, its good to be here. I think there are good helpful people in these forums. Much appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8172 Registered: May-04 | The Rega arms are all considered medium mass/medium high compliance and will work with the Shelter and the Dynavector. There are better matches but these will work. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 24 Registered: Mar-06 | Gentlemen, thanks for your responses, they certainly provide food for thought. I'll try to provide some more info based on your responses. On the question of technology, I guess I really don't care too much. Perhaps I have read too many hifi magazines down the years, and have become pre-programmed to think MC's are the way to go. Also perhaps I have read too much Origin Live hype, since they feel the RB250 is the best thing since sliced bread. They feel that the spring used for VTF in the RB300 is a weak spot for resonance, and they feel that the bearings are better supported on both sides in a RB250. I am sure that OL would recommend me to buy a OL Silver, but I hate the industrial look of this arm and the exposed bearings. What I really want to do is take my vinyl front end "to the next level". Since funds are limited I have not really considered junking the LP12, and starting again from scratch. Again I had been considering a fully modded RB250 or Mitchell Technoarm, since again based on what I have read, both are rated as great value tonearms that punch above their weight. Now based on the cartridges that I mentioned, I understand from your responses that perhaps the bearing friction in a lowly RB250 or variant is perhaps not good enough to do these cartridges justice. One of the major problems I face is that I don't think I have suitable retailers in Melbourne that are able to help me demo the type of stuff that interests me. The retail market in Melbourne, is a bit polarised, we have decent folks selling NAD, Rotel etc, and then it jumps to boutique style dealers selling Levinson, Burmeister etc for the nouveau riche or well healed connoisseurs (sp?). I know of one dealer that sells Cyrus, Musical Fidelity etc, but their stock in vinyl begins and ends with the Rega range of turntables. I have a numerous personal biases on the brands of cartrridge/tonearm that I am willing to live with. I like an even tonality, so in the past have been very happy with various MM Ortofons, and also the Goldring G1042. The Goldring is perhaps the best cartridge that I have owned. I have a budget of perhaps $6-800 USD for the arm, and a similar budget for cartridge, and there is probably a bit of elasticity if something really special turns up. Also when it comes to pre-amp, I did have in mind something like a Trichord Diablo. But a friend of mine also says he can source for me a VSE design for approx $800 AUD. Also, I may consider buying a kit from LC Audio or DACT. I guess what I am kind of hearing is that from a long term perspective for me perhaps it is worth my while waiting until such time I can afford a top flight arm like an Ekos. One last note back in the late eighties when I bought my LP12, I did listen at length to a LP12 Valhalla, Ittok LVIII, and a Koetsu Black, with Naim pre and power amplification driving Isobarik DMS speakers. This sounded great to me on pop/rock material. In terms of music, all my critical listening is done with good rock or pop music. I listen to classical, but mainly at low levels whilst working or reading, or just to have a pleasant ambience in the house. Thanks guys, look forward to hearing more from you.... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8194 Registered: May-04 | It is not the bearing friction but rather the play in the bearings which is the limiting factor in pairing the 250/300 with a MC carridge. While exceptionally tight by normal standards, the Rega arms have enough play in the low end designs that I would suggest staying with a cartridge which doesn't put excessive energy into the arm. This disallows most MC's due to their generally stiffer suspensions. A lower priced MC such as the AT or the Sumiko would work, but beyond that I would say call Rega for a recommendation. Which, of course, will be to buy their cartridge. But I think you will still learn something by talking with the arm manufacturer. Just take their advice with a grain of salt. The debate over the spring in the RB300 has been going on since the two arms were introduced over twenty years ago. There are arguments for both methods and both have advantages and disadvantages. The spring allows a lower effective mass by bringing the counterweight closer to the bearings. This allows for better tracking of all records but most importantly any disc that is not perfectly flat or centered. By doing away with the spring in the 250 the arm has a more consistent tracking force if the record is perfect or quite severely warped. I'm unaware of any differences between the two arms' bearings. I believe the arms share the same bearings and the same specifications for the bearing tolerances. You are in a bit of a spot since funds are tight. What you own will take a bit of change money wise to do more than just shift the balance a bit. I'd shop the pre-owned market as tonearms are a fairly safe bet for longevity of design and problem free operation. Beyond that, I'd make certain the LP12 was operating in top form and would consider a motor control device before changing tonearms. It's not as dramatic in its effect, certainly not on rock music, but it will add a level of silence and speed stability that will show through on any other type of music. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 25 Registered: Mar-06 | Jan, many thanks for your inputs. I think I will continue to save for a second hand Ekos. I think this will take me a while, but will pave the way for a good cartridge. I have listened to the Lingo a few times in the past, and have been quite impressed with the way the music emerges from a very quiet background. Okay, au revoir for the moment, I have spent the afternoon working on my A&R A60 "restoration" project. I replaced all the caps, with Nichicon Muse Kz, and replaced the diodes with FRED types, and replaced the LM317/LM337 regulators with AT-variants. Now my eyes are completely shot. I need a drink, and then a day of rest. cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1291 Registered: Sep-04 | Rav, Firstly and most importantly in my opinion - is there a dealer locally who can service your LP12? Alternatively, are you sure you have the wherewithal to service the LP12 yourself? If neither of these are true, then there is little point of sticking with the LP12. The LP12 is a fine deck but it needs regular fettling. Even the latest version with the newer lock nuts which don't loosen so quickly etc. still needs fettling every 18 months. If you think you can get the Linn bouncing right, then it'll be difficult to find another deck that as its swing and engagement for sensible money. Rega arms and LP12s don't mix all that well. They're not a bad combination, but I wonder how much benefit you would have by going to an RB250/300 arm. The RB1000 was developed with the LP12 in mind s that may be a different kettle of fish, but the 250/300 with LP12 have always sounded a bit like two combinations in contrast rather than a synergistic result. The TechnoArm addresses many of the problems in the arm, but it still has the RB250's basic character. I don't know the OL stuff. The original Akito was a bit of a basement product. Later Akitos (made in Scotland as opposed to Japan) are much better specified and better made. This would be a more natural solution. Another solution would be a Naim Aro which is the best arm on this deck in my view. The EKOS is a good arm (Ekos II much better than Ekos I) but all about frequency extremes and power. The Naim arm is all about fluidity and swing. You just need to cope with a unipivot with the Naim. I have used MCs on Rega arms before now quite successfully. I ahve played a 17D2 on a P3/RB300 with no problems and it's a nice combination. However, I realise that money's tight. A good combination for far less money is the Dynavector 10x5 or 20XH. These are high output MCs. Both give a glimpse of low ouput MC performance wihtout the drawback of the low output. Of course the 20XH isn't as good as its 20XL low output brother, but this solution (or the 10x5) would give you the chance to save up the dosh for a decent phono stage in future. The 10x5 is great value for money here and in Oz I'd expect it to be a right bargain. Put that in an Ekos/Ittok/Aro and you'll be pretty happy. But get the deck serviced first otherwise all will be for nought. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 26 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank, many thanks for your inputs, and to the others who have provided responses. I believe you can read hifi mags until you are blue in the face, but there is no substitute for actual experience of this equipment. So it's good to 'chat' with folks like yourself. So it is really good to read your inputs. Money is always an issue, but I think I will save for an Ekos-II. It will just take me a bit longer. It's easy to get caught up in some of the OL hype regarding their modified arms. I am in it for the long term, so I would rather do it right. I am intrigued that you say the RB1000 was designed with the LP12 in mind. I have a limited understanding since I am not a mechanical engineer, but I am curious to know what particular aspects of the Rega arms make them a poor match for the LP12, and how has this been addressed in the RB1000? When I was a teenager reading HiFi Answers, I vaguely recall that the accepted dogma was that the RB300 is not a good match for the Sondek. In terms of retailers, I think I know most of the retailers in Melbourne, and they all get on my nerves!!!!! (Nonetheless I think I will email Linn customer service, it will be interesting to see who they recommend in Melbourne!!!) The boutique ones, seem to want to get me out of the shop since I don't have 5 figures to spend on Levinson/Burmeister. And I am all too happy to leave. And the other guys, think the world of vinyl begins and ends with Rega, and just palm me off with a story that the LP12 is hopelessly out of date, and that I really need a P9 to achieve the results I want. I am more than happy to tackle setting up the LP12 myself. I have read the dealer setup manual and think that I can handle it. The only thing I am not so sure about not having a setup jig for the LP12, since I think this is a heck of a lot better than 4 beer cans. I may need to improvise something here. But I'll see how I go. I am a big boy, and I can live with my mistakes. One last note, everything hifi related seems to be expensive in Aus. Some Japanese brands like Sony-ES are sensibly priced in Aus, but that does not extend to Dynavector, even though Japan is a major trading partner with Aus. But I will chat to some friends who make trips to Japan for work, perhaps to check prices on Dynavector stuff. In any case I am determined to get a decent vinyl setup for older recordings, since the quality of CD mastering in its early days is apalling, and not all music is lucky enough to warrant a re-mastering project. So vinyl is the way to go. Also I must take things a step at a time, so I will be happy to live with the in-built phono stage in my AVi amp (which I have never, ever heard!!!), until such time as I can afford a dedicated phono stage. cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 27 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Frank, one final point, I forgot, on the retailer side, there is one Naim dealer in Melbourne, whom I have never visited. Since Naim's history was heavily linked to the LP12/Linn Products in the past, I wonder if the Naim dealer in Melbourne is also our local repository for LP12 expertise. Anyhows I will go check them out in any case. -cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1293 Registered: Sep-04 | Rav It's worth checking out. It's really quite difficult to setup an LP12 without a jig. I don't know how I'd go about it quite honestly - you can buy a jig for it from Linn if you like, by the way. Come to that, I know dealers who after 20 years experience still can't really get an LP12 bouncing right. It's not as easy as one would think, being more an art than a science. We charge £100 for a service (including new belt). This includes stripping down the deck COMPLETELY. We literally strip out everything from the deck so that all that's left is the plinth and subchassis, and then build it up from scratch with the new parts such as lock nuts, springs, etc. So before you scream at the dealer bear this in mind...  The LP12 polarises opinions on most things. It has huge loyalty here in the UK of course, but its influence elsewhere in the world is nowhere near as endemic. I am not a big fan of the LP12. I dislike the fact it goes 'off' every year and it has an obvious character to it which I think should not be present in a deck of that quality and price. However, I accept that I haven't heard another deck (except possibly one) that does rock and roll like an LP12. The LP12's feeling of 'swing' is both its strength and weakness. It imbues the music with an urgent sense of the timing of music and this is great with certain genres, if artificial with others. It's a great deck in its own way I guess. The original P9 was a one-trick pony. It timed like nothing else, but that was it. Small, flat soundstage with little resolution. The latest P9 addresses much of this and is an altogether more rounded and more capable machine. It's very much the grown-up brother to the original. I'm not sure what Rega did to make the RB1000 work with the LP12, and I haven't heard the combination myself. All I know is that Rega targetted the LP12 as a deck with which the RB1000 had to work synergistically. one of the main differences of the RB1000 and the RB600 is the 3-point mounting. These arms are screwed into the top of the deck's armboard using wood screws. They do not have the huge threaded bore and nut affair of the RB250/300. This is meant to have a significant effect on the sound of the arm and my guess is that this makes a big difference on the LP12. I didn't say the RB250/300 don't work on the LP12. It's just that they're not really the best synergistic match. The Ekos is a better match even though I'm not a fan, but it's a better blend of attributes, as is the Naim Aro (beautiful arm). Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 28 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank, thanks for the clarifications. I will contact Linn, and see how much it costs to buy the setup jig, and balance this against having the LP12 setup by a dealer, if a comptent dealer exists in Melbourne. I am not scared to tackle the work on the LP12, but yeah I agree it is best to have the right tools to do the job right. Also I am not at all likely to scream at a dealer, not my style. In the past, when I lived in the UK, I had my LP12 serviced numerous times by Hifi Experience in Leamington Spa. I was always happy with the service that I received and did not begrudge the cost. The deck always came back to me in immaculate condition, with small details like new headshell leads, and clean connectors taken care of. I am about to ring the Melbourne Naim dealer, to see if they have any expertise with the LP12, and to see if I can get to listen to an ARO. Although if I like it, it will take me time to save for the necessary dollars. I'll let you know, how I go. cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 90 Registered: Mar-06 | Just a quick update here. Had no luck with the Melbourne Naim dealers, they don't have LP12 expertise. But I did have a conversation with the propietor of one of Melbourne's few high end dealers. This person was friendly and helpful and listened!!! He recommended a person to me, for turntable set up work, whom has LP12 setup expertise. He gave this person his highest personal recommendation. I don't mind 'having a go' with the LP12, but if the necessary expertise is on-hand I may just pay for it. Since I will be on a learning curve, and won't have an instant body of expertise in LP12 setup. BTW my enquiries to Linn have shown that the LP12 setup jig is expensive to purchase, and I don't feel it is worth my while to buy this thing. So I am still saving up for a 2nd hand Ekos (II), when I have the cash I'll start looking in earnest. At the moment, my expanding waist-line and the pleasant results I got from my modded Sony XA-5ES, has made me put vinyl on the back burner. I have re-diredted some of my Ekos fund into buying bike parts to build a nice MTB bike. I really need to cut down on my pork-life! ciao Rav |
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New member Username: TaytehPost Number: 2 Registered: May-06 | could anyone suggest which is the best place to place LP turntable ? top of table? Wall mouldted? Hifi rack ? on the floor? or any other places to prevent humming ???? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8576 Registered: May-04 | You locate a turntable mostly to eliminate feedback. If your table is "humming", either you have a poor choice in cartridge for your table, bad wiring or lack of a ground cable or you have the table too close to a power transformer. |
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New member Username: TaytehPost Number: 3 Registered: May-06 | Hi Janvigne thanks for responding to my question. Here is my systems: 1 Sony direct drive PS 11 turntable 2. Yamaha AV reciever RX 596 (Former What 's hifi 5 star king)3. Pioneer Dvd audio/sacd DV 667A 4. Sansui stereo cassette deck D 100 5. Sanyo Hifi stereo Video cassette player VHP G8 6. Panasonic DVD 535 Player. 7. Audio phonar floor stander plus surround. 8. Psb Alpha B Bookshelf. Ok now my ori sony cartridge had already changed to Shure N 447 very long time ago.This turntable was wall mounted with iron bracket screwed to the wall besides the floor stander firmly and very secured. The base is made of thick plywood that where my turntable sits on it.The turntable ground loop is groundedto my AV yamaha phono ground and I made an additional ground by fixing a wire from the amp chassis to the wallplug earth ang thus making the complete prosedure right? Before the amp chassis was grounded or earthed I usually had a slight electric shock whenever I touch the body of the amp,and if you use a testpen to test the body the testpen will lighten! It seems the whole body is full of current. Now the probelm is when I play LP to the volume of 8.00 to 9.00 o clock it is ok but when I tune up to 10.00 above teh HUM is thre!The louder the volume the bass HUM is More terrible! When you tap the turntable body is like tapping a MIC. The chassis seems picking up wave of sound,the more you or object get closer to the turntable the HUM is more active!By then all my system is placed in a room of 10 feet X 12 feet rather a small room?. Shure cartridge N 447 is so so to me but I still enjoying the pure analog sounding especially the hitting of the cymbals it's so real and likewise to the kicking of the bass drum and the precaution sets. Even if I have DVD audio/sacd player and posses DVD audio sofeware but I still prefer the real sound of the LP analog!.The mellow guitar moods of the Los Indios Tabajaras is my Favourite the guitar sound so real where you can not get in DVD component!There is no more stock of phono cartridge in Malaysia as far as I know . I am thinking of upgrading my cartridge ? any suggestion Jan ? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8624 Registered: May-04 | Other than the phono gound cable, my original answer still applies. I suspect you have the table sited too close to the receiver's transformer. The Sony table will pick up any mechanical feedback present. I would site the table in another location if at all possible. |
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New member Username: TaytehPost Number: 4 Registered: May-06 | well,Jan I'am satisfied with your recommandation and that's the only way I've to do but my room is very small and has no free space to place the table. Anyway I shall try that if space is availble in future. Thanks! Jan, I hope you don't mind for me to ask you this silly question because it is out of the AV topic. Are you being paid For? I really appreciate the way you commited to HELP,Solve,take the trouble to share your proffesional AV knowledge among the audiophlies around the world ! Keep it UP, Jan ! I am learning bit by bit from you yeah ! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8659 Registered: May-04 | "Are you being paid For?" I would answer that question, but I'm not getting paid for that sort of query. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 149 Registered: Mar-06 | An update to my original thread: I exchanged emails with the designer of the origin live tonearms, also responsible for numerous Rega mods. I also had a phone conversation with the same person. I was surprised/perplexed/encouraged that as the MD of Origin Live this person was willing to provide so much of their time for customer support/advice. I did not understand all that was told to me, but the gist of it in non technical terms was as follows: -Rega tonearms with the structural mods, are a good match for a Linn Sondek LP12. This is not necessarily the case for a stock un-modded RB250/RB300 (he did not elaborate on the 2nd point). He has fitted and listened to this combo many many times (LP12 + modded RB250), and it is a great match. -Do not worry about using a mid-range MC in a fully modded RB250 tonearm. This arm works perfectly with low to mid-range MC's (eg. Goldring Elite, Shelter 501, Karat 17D, Benz ACE, Ortofon Rondo series etc), such catridges would be well utilised by the fully modded RB250. High end MC's (eg Koetsu Onyx, Lyra Titan etc) would obviously be a waste of the cartridge's potential. He said there are many other parameters relevant to tonearm performance over and above the bearings, eg resonance control. Basically he re-assured me that once the mechanical parameters are met, the modded RB250 is widely compatible with a broad range of cartridges both MC and MM. - He said that he always tells people who make enquiries about fully modded RB250 the same thing. A fully modded RB250 (int & ext rewire, structural mods, and slotted arm tube) costs 450GBP retail, he says that an OL Silver costs 600GBP retail. He told me that for the extra 150GBP the Silver is in a completely different and superior league in terms of its performance. In fact he was even so bold as to say that an OL Silver "will bury a Linn Ekos" in terms of performance. Those are his words not mine. Also he said that an OL Silver is a good match for the Linn LP12. He said that an OL Silver can do justice to all but the uppermost echelon of phono cartridges. He said the OL silver is "a real no-brainer", again his words not mine. Other than that I can only say that this gentleman was speaking from a great deal of personal experience when it came to the combo of the LP12 with OL and modded Rega tonearms. Also he had a lot of experience with the LP12 in terms of upgrades and mods to deck itself (DC motor kits and various levels of outboard PSU for the DC motor.). The advice offered me seemed simple and straightfoward, and was backed up both by referals to and customer testimony of LP12 owners. So for the cost of 550GBP (ex-vat) since I will export the tonearm, I think I am willing to give the OL Silver a try. I will start with a Goldring G1042, a cartridge that I have previous experience with, and gave me a very satisfying performance. I am willing to set aside my prejudices about the ugly, somewhat industrial look of the OL Silver tonearm, since this does sound to me to be one of the maximum bang per buck arms out there. I do think though that both the Linn Ittok, and Linn Ekos are superior in purely aesthetic terms to the OL Silver. This should free up some funds from my Linn Ekos fund, which I would have previously used for the cartridge, but will currently be used to buy a crankset for my bicycle. Since I am currently engaged in the battle of the bulge. When, and only when, my waisteline is back under proper control, I may then liberate some funds to buy a mid-range MC cart, and suitable phono stage. cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8811 Registered: May-04 | . Fewer cheeseburgers, more hifi! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4384 Registered: Dec-03 | more hifi > less biking > more waistline > fewer cheeseburgers > more hifi Interesting post, Rav. Chainsets are like hifi; Italian (Campagnolo) or Japanese (Shimano)...? Etc. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3263 Registered: Dec-04 | more hifi > less biking > more waistline > fewer cheeseburgers > more hifi We call that a self-eating watermelon. A puzzle for the ages, John. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 150 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks guys, very amusing responses. I am not sure that I am sharp enough to provide a suitable reply, so I won't go there. Maybe with the cycling more blood will get to my brain, and I may then make an attempt at humour. But yep, due to working long hours, I have certainly been hitting the cheese-burgers hard. This has to stop soon, for the sake of my sanity. Also my wife has been saying to me, when are you gonna loose that stomach? This made me laugh, since the way in which she asked was as if this task was something very straightforward, like "when are you going to mow that lawn?". But yes once I stopped laughing, I did get executive approval for the cap-ex spend on my bike!!! So all's well that ends well. On the bike, I am building a MTB, but with two sets of wheels, one for the road, the other for trails. Down the track, I want to build a road bike also. John: yep agree with the similarities between hifi and bikes. At the moment I am sticking with Japanese (Shimano XTR, from bow to stern) parts, if I was building a road bike I might think about Campag, but most custom parts are out of my league, so I am sticking to the usual stuff: Felt (easton tubing), Ritchie, Shimano, and Mavic wheels. all best wishes Rav PS: Nuck did you get to read my comments on the Classe DAC/Transport??? I am curious to know how it sounds. Also this sounds like a great contender for a clock upgrade, I would hazard a guess that this combo will really fly with a good quality clock....... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4387 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Nuck and Rav. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1506 Registered: Sep-04 | Rav, £550 is similar to the price of a modern Akito, which is a very different animal from your version (yours was built in Japan to Linn spec as an upgrade to the Basic+, the latest is built in Scotland). Personally I wouldn't touch OL, but that's me. regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 153 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Frank, can you expand on your reservations about Origin Live? Is it related to the issue of build quality / reliabilty? (Since the crude finish of the OL silver is one of my concerns, but I am willing to look past this if the OL Silver really sounds as good as the reviewers (and OL's customers) say it does.) I sure don't want another Akito, Clyde built or otherwise. For me the Akito-1 was inferior to the LVX-Plus I had before it. LVX-Plus and G1042 sounded very good to my low-rent ears. In fact I still have the G1042 (but I need to buy a new stylus). Another option is a Mitchell techno-arm, which is ostensibly similar to a fully modded OL RB250 (structural mod to counter-weight stub, slotted arm tube, internal and external re-wiring, and in the case of the Mitchell a low slung counter-weight). Problem is that I cannot listen to any of these options in Melbourne. I just need to buy them, point blank. I will be visting the UK at xmas, to see the folks and my new nephew who was born on my birthday a few weeks ago (this kid has great timing!!!). So I could hit the hifi stores then, but I'd rather be playing with my nephew, and my beautiful son. cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 155 Registered: Mar-06 | Of course, I forgot the two other contenders for my cash, a second hand Ittok LVII/LVIII or a secondhand Ekos I/II. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1511 Registered: Sep-04 | Rav, I have not had personal experience of OL, but my colleagues at the shop have, and their experience has been less than satisfactory, enough to put me off. The Michell Tecnoarm is a reworked Rega arm. the cable used in it is the Incognito which I had had put into my Mechanic. The difference it made was outstanding. The Michell arm is very good, the low-slung counterweight makes a remarkable difference as does the damping on the arm, but it's still basically a Rega arm. The latest Akito is closer to an Ittok than an Akito-1 which was an abortion. The Ittok is a very good arm indeed so long as it's been cared for! The EKOS I is not much different to an Ittok LVIII (same bearing). The Ekos II and above are very different, lots more power and less fluidity. The most fluid arm on the LP12 is the Naim ARO which is just gorgeous. Another arm which works well on the LP12 (surprisingly) is the SME V. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 191 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Frank, is it possible to expand on the experience of your colleagues, which was sufficiently negative to put you off OL arms? If you don't wish to berate OL publicly, you could send me a PM. I just ask since, being based in Melbourne, I don't have much option but to buy untested. Now I guess in that scenario the safest bets for me are the good old Ittok (which I am familiar with), or an Ekos (which I am beginning to think is too pricey for me). But the makers of the OL Silver claim that it can 'bury' an Ekos. That is a pretty bold claim, would you not say? I don't want to pass up the opportunity to buy an arm, that for a mere 550GBP has such an exalted level of performance. Also the hifi press seemed to have lavished plenty of purple prose on the OL silver, at the time of its launch, and likewise claim that it is a true slayer of super arms. Now, who is telling the truth here? cheers Rav |
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New member Username: JohnnyesoxGlasgow, Strathclyde Scotland Post Number: 9 Registered: Nov-05 | Go for the Ekos,Rav,then find someone to fine tune yer Linn,not even a dealer,some one in the locality that know's L.P 12's.Some good Trek's on the market just now by the way,save you all that faffin' wi' bits,Ultegra or Dura ace any day,Campag? been there got the wounds! Johnny |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 214 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi John, many thanks for your reply. In fact in some of my recent enquiries, I have found someone in Melbourne who has a lot of LP12 expertise, he works independantly and does TT setup work for more than one dealer here in Melbourne. So that aspect is covered off. Now, if I am to go for an Ekos, I had better start saving the pennies. Also on the bike front, I like faffin' around with all those bits, and for the moment I am building a mountain bike, so I am going Shimano XTR all the way. Now, also I see your address, what else would I exepect but an Ekos recommendation from Strathclyde Glasgow. You don't work for Linn do you ;-) ??? cheers, and all the best Rav |
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New member Username: RavbainsPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-07 | Quick update here, I finished all my bike build stuff, and did not use any Shimano parts at all, after talking to an excellent mechanic, he told me that Shimano product quality is in the dumpster these days, unlike 10 years ago. So following his advice, I build up 100% SRAM/Avid/Truvatic/Mavic/Ritchey-Logic top of the line parts on a Scott Scale-Concept Carbon-limited frame. Its an awesome bike, and boy am I glad that I went with SRAM and not Shimano. Now a quick update on my LP12, I have collected the following parts: Rega RB1000 tonearm, Ortofon Kontrapunkt-B MC cartridge, and a Hercules-II PSU will be on its way soon, along with an all acrylic base-board. So hopefully the build phase of this project can start soon. For a phono stage, I would like a Whest, but for the time being the built in stage in my Tri-Vista integrated amp will have to do! cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2081 Registered: Sep-04 | Good luck Rav! That's going to be fun...! Have you looked at the Funk Firm add-ons for the LP12 - they seem very interesting. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10292 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.stereophile.com/news/042307linn/ Sorry, did I read this correctly? Linn grossed $65m last year and they're letting people go to restructure and promote on "a more focused range of even higher quality products, specifically aimed at the premium end of the consumer market." "Premium end"?!!! 'Scuse me, just what the hell have they been selling for the past decade? Other than cables and a less expensive(?) cartridge, what is the cheapest Linn product right now? And IT wants to blame the government for this?!!!!!!!!! What am I missing other than two Pounds for one Dollar? How about blaming the government responsible for that dilema? . |
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New member Username: RavbainsPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-07 | Hi Jan, I saw the bad news about lay-offs at the Linn factory also. I guess it is their forays into the Home Theatre world, and the need to have a loudspeaker (both active and passive) and amplifier at every possible price point, has caused them to spread themselves too thin. In fact I would guess beyond the point where such diversity makes any economic sense. Cannot comment much further, but I hope that they don't go under. -Rav |
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New member Username: RavbainsPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-07 | Hi Frank, you are a wicked man. I just about got the money together to get my current set of parts, I took a look at the funk firm parts and they do look very interesting, in particular the Vector drive system. But, I need to clench my fists and grit mt teeth and just make the most of what I have for the time being..... cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2086 Registered: Sep-04 | Rav, Sorry...  Jan, although Linn posted $65M turnover, last year's profit margin was under $300k. What's worse is that 2005's figure was around $800k and their record profit of all time was the equivalent of $4M in 2000. The trend is definitely in the wrong direction. From what I've read (I'm not a Linn dealer so I'm not in the loop) the company feels it needs to focus on core competencies. Considering that its core products have always been far more expensive than most people would consider, and that Linn announced their new Majik system this year, I guess this means the end of the Classik line, but it may also mean a reduction in the lifestyle products such as the custom install and AV lines. Just guesswork of course, so we will have to see what happens. Regards, Frank. |
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