Archive through March 26, 2006
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 120 Registered: Dec-05 | I've been considering dipping a toe into the waters of hi-res digital for awhile now, but have hesitated for the reasons many do - the competing formats and, especially, the new ones on the horizon. My opinion is that SACD is *probably* here to stay at this point, but I think this would be a good discussion. Last time I really looked at things, about 6 months ago, most people did think that Sony will NOT abandon SACD for blu-ray - is that still the common wisdom? There are more and more new releases, it seems. But, if I buy a player it's going to be a good one and not cheap. A high-end redbook CDP stomps a cheaper SACDP every time. So, if I make a real investment in a player and the new software I want to be able to feel like it's going to be good for, say, 5+ years at least. Or, I'll just want for the dust to settle on it all. Thoughts? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 369 Registered: Nov-05 | Paul Are you interested in stereo only SACD or Surround as well? |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 121 Registered: Dec-05 | Very little interest in multi-channel. I do have center and surrounds but they (and the amp that powers them) are far below the quality of the main speakers. (The HT is basically built on top of my dedicated 2 channel audio system.) In addition, I've always been mostly in the "multi-channel audio is gimmecky" camp. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 371 Registered: Nov-05 | I enjoy multi-channel hi-rez music immensely. Sure there was a certain "wow" factor to begin with, but there is a certain dynamic to the sound that is not quite evident in stereo. And while it's true some titles do have "over the top" surround effects, usually, if the speakers are set up and arranged correctly, the soundstage is not as false as many would have you believe with most quality titles. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy hi-res stereo titles either. For surround, 5 full range speakers are recommended (which I would agree with) however, my set up (see my details) works extremely well. If you are keen on just 2 channel SACD then I would be looking at the best higher end player your money could buy: Shanling, Marantz, Denon to name a few. With a good universal player, DVD-A is an added benefit as it also provides stunning sound, as well as DVD-A on some dualdiscs (providing the player is compatible). See http://www.sa-cd.net for all sacd titles. Cheers |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2853 Registered: Feb-05 | Even if Sony dumps SACD there is enough interest to keep it going for quite sometime. I do all of my SACD listening in 2 channel and enjoy it very much. Some of Sony's early inexpensive multichannel SACD players had very impressive performance and outperformed most CD players up to the high end, but only with respect to their SACD sound vs the redbook sound of the cd players. The redbook performance of the those Sony players was dismal. The SACD sound of my Denon DVD2910 is very impressive, the redbook performance is less so. As a stand alone SACD player I think it's a very good buy. Can't say about DVD-A I never bought one or listened to one in my own system. |
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Bronze Member Username: WavelengthPost Number: 17 Registered: Aug-04 | If you are going to buy a player for the high-res formats I would recommend a universal player so that you can play sacd and dvd-audio. That way you will have more titles to choose from. But I wouldn't say that either of these formats are here to stay. DualDisc (a mix of cd and dvd-audio) is probably the format receiving the most attention from the record companies right now. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 372 Registered: Nov-05 | Trouble is DualDisc isn't always DVD-Audio, sometimes they only contain DD soundtracks or just some video clips on the DVD side. And forget ordering them on-line unless you have read what the discs contain beforehand because all the relevent audio information is rarely shown on the shopping websites. The choice of audiophiles seems to be SACD and will most likely remain a niche market for this reason. But who knows? |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1168 Registered: Oct-04 | I think a lot depends on the kind of music you listen to, especially for SACD. Classical and opera are getting most of the SACD attention - and likely to be the focus of SACD in the foreseeable future. Just look at the play lists Online. . . As to players - it's one of those dice-rolling situations. If possible - give a listen to the new Harman Kardon DVD-47 - just on the market, and getting a lot of attention from my audiophile friends on the West Coast. Art Kyle has invested a lot of time, energy and a fair amount of money in his rig(s) - so I'd put some stock in what he says. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that for classical and opera - SACD will be around for a long time. For pop-rock - I doubt it. Jan Vigne, My Rantz and John A - on this forum - have extensive experience, and all are worthy posters on this forum. Don't look for Blu-ray to take over the audio world anytime soon - they'll be pushing video for some years to come, if my guess is correct. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 122 Registered: Dec-05 | I've checked out what's available on SACD and I'm very impressed. I listen to mostly acoustical jazz and flamenco guitar, with classical being 3rd. There is a LOT of jazz avaialable - AND most are hybrid CDs that I could still play in my 2ndary redbook player. I have just never been interested in DVD-A as a format. Seems that it's been largely ignored by audiophiles and there's not much out there. Thus, I'm not too concerned about DVD-A playback. If I buy a SACD player it would probably be a Shanling T200 but I'd not buy a new one at that price. I certainly agree about Blu-ray... however, it's kind of an annoying thought to consider SACD and DVD-A being eclipsed in even as little as 5 years. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1169 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul: Well, sir - consider that the "average" life of a CD player is 5 years - and do your own math! Most of the SACDs I buy are the hybrid variety - though frankly it doesn't make much difference to me - I look for the performance first, the format second. Right now I have an order on its way from Amazon - one SACD and five "regular" CDs - and all bearing good reviews for sound quality. The Shanling certainly is a great-LOOKING player, and probably sonically superior, as well. As to 2 or 4-channel listening - my wife doesn't like the surround sound, so I kick down the rear speakers by 5 db or so - except for movies. And think on this - within five or six years, I'd look for music on chips instead of discs. Makes sense. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 123 Registered: Dec-05 | A f---ing hate the Shanling player for being so %#@! beautiful. It is begging me to buy it. It knows I must. I fear my power to resist! Seriously, the sonics are absolutely top-notch from all the reviews as well (especially with WE NOS tubes). |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1172 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul: Good grief! Such a "love-hate" relationship! (grin) But I know what you mean, sir. If I had the money, I might be tempted as well - but right now, the new HK for just under $400 USD calls to me. I think it's pretty good-looking, too, BTW! I hear enough about the glories of "tube sound" from a lot of people on the Old Dogs forum - but have yet to dip into it. Maybe it's too bad I don't still have some of the tube amps I built way, way back in my college days (the 50s). Hmm. . . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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New member Username: MilpaiPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Paul, I don't think that you should doubt about SACD being killed by any new hi-rez format. Infact I look at the new format as boosting SACD sales in the audiophile world. Ofcourse, it will be a niche market. I don't hate any formats - that's not what audiophiles do - they promote music. But what I think is - the new formats will be mainly focusing on VIDEO. If at all any sales are going to go down, then it will be the DVD. SACD is the only pure DSD format. And think of it - Sony was thinking of letting go this format last year. But all of a sudden we are seeing so many Sony SACD releases. Besides Sony there are other labels that are releaseing a lot of music on SACD. If you want to wait and watch, then here is my suggestion. Subscribe to elusivedisc.com and acousticsounds.com newsletters. You will be amazed by the number of SACD releases in a week. Yes, don't skimp on the SACD player. I initially wanted to go for a do-it-all player. But a careful listen to a universal and SACD only player for an entire day (home demo) made me realize the potential of such machines. You can check my system at audiogon.com under the moniker "milpai". I use the same moniker at every site and I luv SACD :-) |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 124 Registered: Dec-05 | Milind, After my recent research, I agree with you about the future of SACD. I bought a used Shanling T200 on eBay. Much cheaper than new. Tolerable (barely). It doesn't do DVD-A (don't care) and it doesn't do multichannel (don't care) and it is supposed to be stellar with redbook (care a lot about that). Also, IT IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PEICE OF AUDIO EQUIPMENT IN THE WORLD OH GOD I WANT TO RUN MY HANDS ALL OVER IT, I WANT TO CARESS IT AND STARE AT IT FOR HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS!!!!! 'Night, Paul |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 125 Registered: Dec-05 | So... anyway... my Xindak player in my 2nd system gets sold, my (excellent) MiniMax moves in there, and the Shanling takes center stage in the main system. I'm also selling my never-used paintball gun to help finance this. That makes sense, right? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 378 Registered: Nov-05 | Gee whizz Paul, the T200 is sure nice, but a beautiful curvaceous female it ain't. And there's more to a good source than its ability to be ogled at Paul [grin] Anyway congratulations, it hope it's in A1 condition. I know there is already, and most likely will continue to be, a much larger library of SACD's than DVD-A, but as I said, some of them are really quite stunning also soundwise. In fact I have just ordered another 4 DVD-A's and 1 new SACD - included in the DVD-A's (if like his previous albums there will be no SACD) is Donald Fagan's "Morph The Cat" and it also comes with a CD version. My SACD/DVD-A collection is now about 4:1 in favour of SACD. Having said all that and expressing my liking of hi-res multi-channel, I am still jealous of your new toy. Excellent! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1173 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul: Uh, keep a clean cloth and some cleaner handy. You'll need it to keep those awful fingerprints from showing up on the Shanling! Running your hands over it might improve the sound even more - sorta like an exorcism of CD-screech? (grin) My Rantz: Grief, sir, I didn't realize that you were acquiring that many discs! After all of your listening, do you notice any sonic diff-runce between the DVD-A and SACD - or does it go simply by performance and production quality? In my humble system, the SACDs in nearly every case eclipse the CDs - however - so many of my favorite performers are bringing out new albums only in RedBook, not SACD, format. Sigh. Maybe they know something we don't? Or do they just realize that most people have CD players - few people have SACD gear?? I still await some definitive reviews of the new Harman Kardon DVD-47 - but it's too new for that. Meanwhile, I'm hoping the Yammie doesn't die before I can figger out what to replace it with! Jan V. - awaiting your reviews of the two Evans discs, and your take on whether the SACD gives better quality reproduction. I think it does. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 379 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry Yes my friend, I am beginning to gather quite a hi-res collection. I must do a count, though I would guess it would be somewhere around a hundred titles. I believe there is very little difference between the two hi-res formats. Overall, I would give the winning edge to SACD, but putting the best of both head to head is really a photo finish imho. I know your anxious to upgrade your player Larry, but please try to audition a few before passing judgement. Apart from a few exceptions (and the HKDVD-47 may well be one) you really do get what you pay for, I believe. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 126 Registered: Dec-05 | Of course I will not actually touch it. I'll sit near it and stare for hours. Might turn it on once in awhile. (Actually, if I feel my MiniMax bests it in redbook playback I may well sell it. This is why I love buying used gear - such limited risk, really. Audition, sell for what you bought for.) I do agree bout the HK-47. Mows down rebels with finesse. |
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New member Username: MilpaiPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Wow ...Paul..be careful. The "others" might be jealous :-)) |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1174 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul: You've actually heard the DVD-47? If so, you're one of the few - I can't find any here - and my Online dealer, OneCall, doesn't even have any in stock yet. I'm very anxious to hear it. The Yammie tonight suddenly put up color bars while playing "Good Night and Good Luck." Strange, waving patterns of light - then went to black. Sigh. Finally started playing again. MR: Hmmm - yes, sir, I'll be taking my time in trying to select a new player - but in my price range, there isn't much that I haven't already tried out - and rejected for one reason or another. I'm only working toward the HK because of friend Verne in LA - and he says it's a knockdown player - in his opinion. I'm rather troubled by my inability to actually hear the differences between the so-called "good" players. Sigh. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 382 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, I think Paul's reference to the HK-47 may have been toungue-in-cheek - as in AK-47 - but I may wrong too of course! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1176 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - uh, thanks. See? We grow too soon old und too late schmart! (grin) AK-47, hmm. . .maybe. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7934 Registered: May-04 | http://cgi.stereophile.com/cgi-bin/displayvote.cgi Scroll down for another (couple dozen) opinion(s) of the various Hi-rez formats future and how many people are looking forward to replacing The White Album one more time. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1180 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan: Thanks for the link. SACD and DVD-A are "dead?" Well - every week I look Online - and lo and behold, there are more SACDs being released. Now I'm the first to realize that most of these are Classical - not pop/rock, which, I guess, the majority of people listen to on their rigs. Blu-ray - sigh. Let me put it this way: I will be 70 years old in May - and the last thing I want to do in my "declining years" is to spend my dear wife's art income on yet another format - just to replace all the "tunes" I now have. Won't/can't do dat. Right now I'm more interested in what many of the Old Dogs have barked about - getting more accurate sound out of the CDs we all have. Will the "exact audio copy" turn out to be some sort of sonic savior? Well - even that would mean hours upon hours of copy-down time - but if it gave me sound quality that was "very much better" I'd do it. . . I think that Jan, Art, Paul, Rantz and others are getting more accurate sound from their players/amps than I am from mine. But how much "better?" And at what extra cost? A good, if moot, point, for I have no way of measuring. . . I'm betting that my friend Verne has it right - that Blu-ray will be centered on video, not audio alone, for the first few years. By that time, Jan, I hate to even hint at it, but we may all be going to solid-state chips for our music, and using the good old discs for target practice. Rick B could help us out with some good pointers here. . .(grin) On a parallel course of thought: I'm with Rick - I'm too old to fight. There are better things for me to do. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 127 Registered: Dec-05 | Larry, Yes, the -47 comment was just a (lame) joke - I have not heard the player in question. I am indeed very happy with redbook CD playback on my system. This is my only format - I don't do vinyl - so it's always been where all the effort has gone. The MiniMax CDP is a terrific unit at almost any price, I believe - it is very, very analog-sounding machine - that's what it's all about IMO. I do hope the Shanling player it at least it's equal with redbook. If not, I doubt I'll be able to live with it. Or, maybe I'll have to break down and have two sources. I have impressed several vinyl diehards with the sound of my system - which was good before I got into tube amps and is now, IMO, far better. (I think the tubed output stage of a CDP is indeed critical - having tubes at the first point of amplification is quite important. But even with that, tubes farther down the line smooths out the sound and gives bloom and presensce.) I personally have a hard time dealing with the weaknesses of vinyl, though there's no doubt that in several areas vinyl rules for the last word in musicality - with the possible exception of hi-res digital which I am just getting into! Paul |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4004 Registered: Dec-03 | SACD is still growing in the classical market, where it is touted primarily as a format for surround sound. People seem to have forgotten about the "hi-res" angle - SACD's original selling point. DVD-A was there first, on both counts, but I think most audio people and music listeners regard DVD-A as derived from a video format, and steer clear. I have enjoyed so much music on CD in the last year or so, as I have improved my two-channel stereo system. Thinking back to the LP -> CD transition, I am going to wait and see. No-one in their right mind is going to replace their investment in collections of recorded music just because some of it is now available in a different format. I have never heard from anyone who was pleased to get rid of their LPs; not after all the hype for digital had died down. When there are things one cannot get on CD, that will be the time to get serious about adopting the format that replaces CD. I, for one, have no idea what that will be. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 385 Registered: Nov-05 | Well - no, the hi-res formats are not dead yet. SACD is still hi-res (if you read the specs and equipment used for some titles) and even DVD-A is still breathing. SACD releases are primarily classical and jazz - one only needs to see sa-cd.net or acousticsounds.com to know that what people read in 'Stereophile' is subject to dubious opinion (imho) much of the time. No one says these formats are setting the earth on fire in sales but new releases seem to be popping up enough to dispel some of these myths pervading the audio world. There are many discs on offer now, we have sacd, dvd-a, hdcd, gold cd, xrcd, xrcd2, dualdisc, on so forth - so the little plastic disc is alive and well, even if it is subject to Darwin's theory. Mark knopflers recent albums have been released on both hi-res formats and the DVD-A versions, just like the latest Donald Fagen DVD-A (I have recently ordered) come with a redbook cd - in Knopfler's case the rbcd is hdcd encoded. So, the formats aren't dead yet - even in popular music titles. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7937 Registered: May-04 | "I think that Jan, Art, Paul, Rantz and others are getting more accurate sound from their players/amps than I am from mine. But how much 'better?'" Possibly our expectations are slightly lower than yours, Larry. It's not easy cramming all those tenors, sopranos and baritones onto that little 5" disc. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4006 Registered: Dec-03 | "SACD is still hi-res" Agreed, MR. But the music reviewers and independent record labels all imply, now, that the major difference from CD is surround. I was a great enthusiast for DVD-A, two years ago, but have to admit the discs are getting fewer, and it does look as if DVD-A has not got long to live. SACDs are in the stores, in the racks, in the same sized cases as CDs, and are now mostly hybrids - the casual CD buyer may not even notice his new disc will play SACD, too. When he does, he might just be tempted to get a CD/SACD player, next time. He doesn't even need to have a surround sound receiver and mutiple speakers. Whether SACD really sounds better in just two channel, I don't know. Some say "yes", but no-one seems to say it is a whole new hi-res experience. I'll get my multi-channel system back, eventually, and see how things stand. All the best. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 128 Registered: Dec-05 | John, I believe many say yes (SACD bests CD at 2-ch). The weaknesses of the redbook format are undeniable. SACD certainly addresses them. Whether it succeeds or not in practice... enough audiophiles certainly seem to think so. I could be wrong, but I *don't* think most SACD-bent audiophiles are doing surround. I still just don't get it, myself. 2 channels can create a perfect soundstage and precise imaging. Live performances consist of music played IN FRONT of you, not around you - and, if we're going to talk about reflections, well, you get that with 2 channels as well. Yes, I have heard it, and was not impressed, other than the initial "wow, that sounds pretty neat" reaction. It sounds neat... it doesn't sound any more like a live jazz performance than well-done 2 ch. For me, hi-res digital is about just that - HI RES, overcoming the redbook's data limitations - not more channels. Just MHO. (I suppose the old dogs thread, which I haven't read, says lots about this.) |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 388 Registered: Nov-05 | John I more or less agree, but just when I DO think DVD-A is on its last breath, up pop new releases. With SACD's I still think the sonics in multi-channel are better than 2 channel, but of course, that could well be different on other equipment. Also, some HDCD's played on our NAD 542, sound a little better to me then good sacd 2 channel played on the 2900 - or at least similar. Of course, the sonics still depend on the engineering/recording efforts with various titles other than just the format used. It must be remembered that DVD-A is also a format on dualdisc, though not on all of them, and not always including the multi-channel layer. Talking Heads have recently re-released all their albums on dualdisc and include both the 2 and multi channel hi-res mixes which reviewers are currently lauding. Many of the Moody Blues albums have just been re-released on hybrid SACD's. So with these and other releases, the activity continues. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1182 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul: You are forgiven for your (lame) joke, sir - but I should not be forgiven for failing to see it as such! (grin) MR - looking around carefully before jumping to another player, but I've pretty well gone through everything in my price range - except the new HK. Perhaps my price range is too low for expectations of musical greatness? Hmm. .. Just can't see spending more than a thousand buckaroos - and Mer tends to frown on spurious spending! (grin) Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4008 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, Paul and My Rantz; I accept that SACD and DVD-A give higher resolution than CD - "a finer grain". Whether this amounts to greatly improved sound quality, I am not sure. I have bought a couple of SACD/CD hybrids, but the CD layer is poor, and I have not had an opportunity to make a lengthy comparison. The dealers I have been to respond with "How many CDs do you own?"; "There are no discs in these formats" and so on. My intended point is that most of the recording companies that release SACD now say that the benefit it brings is surround sound. Also the reviewers - there was another example on BBC CD Review, yesterday, where the presenter played a clip and then said he couldn't wait to get the hybrid disc home to try the surround. All these people seem to have gone quiet on the "hi-res" aspect of SACD. Example 1. Chandos http://www.chandos.net/ChandosIntro.asp Chandos is universally acclaimed for the excellence of its sound quality and has always been at the forefront of technical innovation. In 1978 Chandos was one of the first to record in 16bit/44.1Khz PCM digital. One of the first to edit a digital recording (Holst: Planets - SNO/Gibson) completely in the digital domain and in 1983 one of the first to produce Classical CDs into the market place. Today Chandos has kept up with technology by recording mostly in 24bit/96Khz PCM but now also in DSD for producing 'surround sound' SACD's. Chandos is also into selling downloaded MP3 files, by the way. Example 2. Linn http://www.linnrecords.com/about_us/about_us.asp?AboutUsSection=music_formats No downloads, by the way. FAQs about SA-CD Q. What is Multichannel SA-CD? A. Multichannel SA-CD sound can contain as many as six separate channels, which with a surround sound system, can faithfully reproduce the original performance space. In practice this means that the geographical layout of an orchestra can be replicated in your home, bringing you closer to the live performance. An example of this can be heard on Linn CKD 180 Poulenc Organ Concerto", which exploits the rear channels to place the organ in its geographically correct position behind the listener. Multichannel SA-CD can also create a 360° sound environment which seems to envelop you in the music. Example 3. LSO Live. http://www.lso.co.uk/recordings/lsolive/news.asp?id=212 This is an interesting page, and sets out two-channel advantages, too. LSO Live also sells recordings as Apple iTunes files. What are the benefits of SACD? The DSD process used for producing SACDs captures more of the nuances from a performance and reproduces them with a clarity and transparency not possible with CD. This pure and natural sound also has a much greater dynamic range than CD, allowing you to experience the full range of emotions and energy only previously possible in a live performance. Going back to points made before, on Old Dogs. 1. SACD was introduced by Sony and Philips in 1999 as a two channel format with better sound than CD - which they forgot they had described as "perfect" in 1983. They then demonstrated by releasing popular analogue recordings in SACD format (having forgotten that CD was better than analogue) which had been surreptitiously remixed to make then sound different from both the CD and original analogue versions. 2. The first SACDs were two-channel SACD only, and S&P said there would be no hybrids. 3. The first players were SACD only. 4. SACD has very strong encryption build in, to prevent copying, an increasing worry for S&P in the 1990s - they manufacture and sell both discs and players. 5. The business pitch for SACD (I sometimes read financial pages, too!) was that people would go out and replace their entire CD collections, as they had done with LP. It would be a money-spinner. It wasn't. They had to change tack. Meanwhile, the market is enthusiastically moving over to downloads. SACD will never be downloadable, because anything that can be downloaded can be copied. It is possible that, in, say, 10 years' time, pretty well everyone will have their recorded music stored digitally on computers and/or on iPod-type devices. (MP3 will go for serious listening; there are already much better compression systems). If we have any sense we will keep our CD collections - the files can easily be copied to computer/iPod. At that time, some diehards may still be listening to their SACD collections on "legacy" players, but they will not be able to move the files directly to the new systems, so they will be incompatible. A few total dinosaurs (like me) will have a few dozen DVD-As but probably no means of playing them, unless they had the foresight to copy them to magnetic disc before encryption ("copy protection") became added to DVD-A, too. One audiophile prospect is hi-res linear PCM, say 24/96. Storage devices are getting cheaper - at work I just got a 250 GB drive for about £100. If and when iTunes moves up in resolution, it will become an attractive proposition. I do not have a crystal ball - this could all be wrong. But the question also arises, how long does anyone want their new purchase to be good for? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7943 Registered: May-04 | I bought my new turntable in 1982. It still works. "Perfectly" as far as I can tell. I can't remember how many CD players I've junked since then. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1183 Registered: Oct-04 | John A - good posting, sir! At least most of my SACDs are of the hybrid variety, so even if SACD "dies," I'll have the CD layer to play - assuming that plain old CD players still exist! (grin) Jan - "yep" - a chap at my Online dealer recently posted me that the "average" life of a CD player is three years. After that, they apparently self-destruct or are junked for trade-up by their owners. Though your turntable may still give you "perfect" sound - how many cartridges and needles have you gone through? Eh? Quite a few, I'll wager. . . unless, of course, you don't listen to LPs very often, in which case your turntable amounts to a nice museum piece. (grin) Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2865 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul, I agree with you about SACD and 2 channel vs multi channel. John, that was an exhaustive review and well done I might add. I agree with you about where we will be in ten years. As I've stated many times the music/movie server will likely be where we get our electronic entertainment sooner than later. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7945 Registered: May-04 | I've replaced the cartidge and "needle" on my tonearm a few times. I've also replaced the tubes in my amplifiers several times. I have replaced the spark plugs and oil in my car's engine a few times. I have nothing against maintaining what I own, Larry. I have a problem being put in a position where I have to throw something out because the manufacturer no longer supports a product they made less than five years ago. I have a problem when the cost of repair doesn't make it worth maintaining an item when taken against replacement costs. I guess I don't understand your logic here, Larry. My turntable and tonearm sit essentially as they were the day I bought them. They have not worn out nor required upgrading due to defective parts. I knew the stlyus of my cartridge would wear out when I made that purchase just as I know the tires on my car will need replacement if I drive the car. Just as I know my house needs painting every now and again. I don't burn down my home because a window breaks or junk my car because the taillight burns out. I think it wiser to keep the car and replace the CD player that has failed - again. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 391 Registered: Nov-05 | John A As most sacd's are now hybrid, the cd layer can be copied - this is directly from the pamphlet blurb. I don't know why this subject seems to hit such a niggling nerve with you, no one is telling you that you must go hi-res (stereo or surround), it is simply a matter of choice. We all know we cannot control recording companies or influence market forces, nor can we predict the future. We purchased a semi-large screen Pioneer rear projection TV a couple years prior to our plasma purchase because the "guns" burnt and left us looking at blobs of color. Replacing the guns (tubes) costs more than the set itself. It's bad luck and it comes with the territory - no use starting a revolutionary front over it. As far as your comment regarding the cd layer on your hybrid sacds sounding poor goes, most of those in our collection sound much better than standard cds - obviously some recording companies aren't doing what some others are. C'est le vie my friend. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1184 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan: OK - good lecture. I wasn't trying to challenge you, but merely to "needle" you jest a bit. (grin) MR - I have to split my support between you and John A. on the CD-layer issue on SACDs. All depends on the recording, and the recording company. I have some SACDs whose CD layer is, frankly, mediocre. Others I find better than stand-alone CDs. As you all know, I consider Deutsche Grammophone a disaster sound-wise. Harmonia Mundi, Naxos, Audita, etc., on the other hand, often produce great sonics. However - unless I intend to copy-down the discs, I pay no attention to the CD layers, anyway. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4010 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, guys. Descriptions like the LSO Live one made me interested in SACD. I asked in this forum, several times, if anyone could say two-channel SACD was a significant improvement over CD for two channel. I read faint praise, at best. Again, my point is that SACD is now touted as the audiophile's surround format. My Rantz, Friend, we have argued over this sort of issue before. "I don't know why this subject seems to hit such a niggling nerve with you". I don't think I have a niggling nerve on this. In 1982-83 I was happy with LP and FM stereo; read all the blurb about CD; took it very seriously, and eventually moved over, I think in 1988. There were CD ads everywhere in the early 80s that were just as beguiling as the iPod ads today. I did not get rid of my LPs. BTW my turntable was bought in 1979, and still functions perfectly, as far as I can tell. I am three years up on Jan! A few replacement styli; but original cartridge. My FM tuner I bought in 1978, and it blows digital radio out of the water, if not vaporizes it. Both of those items (TT and FM tuner) can still be serviced by the original makers. There is a sort of built-in dissatisfaction in audio, which I think the big companies understand. Take a look at this forum - people apologize for not having already replaced CD players, or speakers, purchased a mere five years ago. What, really, is the benefit? So, as regards digital audio, my intention, now, is to wait and see. And go on enjoying and learning about music. If SACD really get going and I can hear a difference, that will be the time to move. But it could well be that a decent optical-input DAC device to feed wireless, streamed digital into my tube amp is going to be cheap, and a better long-term upgrade. Except that I still like owning discs, with their notes and cover artwork. All the best. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 393 Registered: Nov-05 | John, sorry! I thought you had made your move to the Apollo and have given up on the idea of SACD. I'm not really in a position to say whether SACD is a significant improvement over CD in 2 channel as I have not experienced it with a high end player - which I believe is what it really takes. You have had my thoughts on my experience with the Denon 2900 and at present, I only consider SACD surround as a 'significant' improvement. Sure sometimes this format in 2 channel sounds great and beats redbook, but other times redbook can sound just as good to me - which is why I took my player to the dealer for his appraisal (which I posted somewhere). Jeez it's late - cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7946 Registered: May-04 | Yeah, well, I've got a Dual 1009 that I use for record cleaning since it has a rim driver platter that could pull stumps. It has a cheap Shure SM57 cartridge that probably still works even if the rubber parts have dried out a bit. It was built about the same time as my Mac amplifiers. Your turn, JA. Then I'll tell you about my General Electric console with only AM tuning, tubes for everything (single ended triodes to be exact) and 78 RPM speed on the table. It, however, at the present time is not "perfect forever". One of my dogs ate the speaker cone. " ... my point is that SACD is now touted as the audiophile's surround format." And why not, John? SACD has the potential for better reproduction. Audiophiles will always adopt the potential for better sound. We keep grasping at straws hoping for the best. That the individual representatives of any format do or do not live up to that potential is not the issue for the audiophile community. Audiophiles have, in large numbers, appointed the LP as the format of choice for sound quality, not SACD. Audiophiles, if you read carefully, have annointed SACD as being more like analog. That so many LP's sounded horrible due to improper attention in their manufacture hasn't changed that view for many listeners. If the format has the potential to bring you closer to the reality of the musical performance, audiophiles will normally embrace the idea if not the reality. When I first began listening to "hifi", open reel master tapes were the king of kings when it came to fidelity and transfers from those tapes were the finest signal quality an audiophile could possess. Anyone who has heard the difference between a well recorded half track tape at even 7 1/2 i.p.s. and a direct to disc LP would immediately reject the LP as the superior format. None of which has influenced the music industry one wit. By all accounts, a well set up and balanced multi channel system with an excellent SACD source has the potential for taking the listener a step closer to the real event. That most "surround sound" systems and discs fail at this is no excuse to reject the better format. It merely suggests you reject the system which is inneffective. However, without support that system will never grow and will eventually die. Of course, with support for an inferior product, the music industry and audio manufacturers have no incentives to imporve the quality of the poorly performing system. Instead they have all the more incentive to make more junk and cover it up with more gee-gaws. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4012 Registered: Dec-03 | I have read and appreciate all the recent posts. "Your turn, JA". Well, er, I still own a Boosey and Hawkes "Emperor" B flat trumpet, bought for me by my father, in about 1964. I like the musical instrument ads that say "better than an iPod". Yes, SACD is supposed to be "more like analogue". That's what they say about the Rega Apollo, too. I am still very pleased with that player. But recommending something by saying "more like analogue" is a total change of outlook, don't you think, from the 80s and 90s? An admission that "digital" is not the bees' knees, the non plus ultra, etc., of sound reproduction. I remember, just before CD, when digitally-recorded LPs had the critics drooling; "like a veil has been lifted from between the listener and the players" etc. I never understood that. Are critics just as neurotic and influenced by fads as everyone else, or are they actually bribed? It pays to remember. Ah, well. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1185 Registered: Oct-04 | John A. - critics are neurotic - and influenced by many, many things. . . Jan - so - do you still have the dog? (that ate the speaker cone?) Must have been a "woofer?" (ouch) LR |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 129 Registered: Dec-05 | "Are critics just as neurotic and influenced by fads as everyone else, or are they actually bribed?" BOTH! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1186 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul, Jan et al: "Yep." |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 395 Registered: Nov-05 | Here you go Larry - forget the Camry :-) http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?prodid=1119&product=M CD201 |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4013 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks for the link, My Rantz. McIntosh MCD201 SACD/CD Player Plays CDs, CD-R, CD-RW, SACD and MP3. Now, that is an argument for SACD... |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 736 Registered: Feb-04 | Another nail in the coffin? http://www.musicangle.com/shownews.php?id=100 The "SACD ghetto". Interesting phrase considering it's supposed to be the superior format. It must be referring to the poverty of titles and public interest. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7951 Registered: May-04 | Where do I order flowers? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4015 Registered: Dec-03 | Ah, so we have a future collectors' item. Mrs A bought the "Early Stones" set, completely unaware that they were CD/SACD hybids. I only found out by reading the small print. I would not put them down as great recordings of the century, exactly. Not sonically speaking. I can think of better SACD test programme material. BTW Heard Chick Corea on radio yesterday, great show and selection of music. He talked about listening to jazz and classical when very young, on his father's collection of "78 rpm vinyl". Please don't all raise your hands at once.... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4016 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry, I thought I was on "Old Dogs".... Will paste that last remark there.  |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 130 Registered: Dec-05 | Hey there John - off topic, but - I'm going to London on biz in a couple weeks - any hifi shops you could recommend I visit (just to listen). (And if I have time - will be very busy.) Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4018 Registered: Dec-03 | Paul, Yes. If you wish to drop in on them, on spec, I can send a few suggestions, depending on exactly where you are. Some of the best-stocked showrooms I have seen are in the West End. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 397 Registered: Nov-05 | "ABKCO Removes Hybrid SACD Stones Albums From Catalog" That's old news, They're still trying to get rid of them in a few stores here. As a Stones fan from way back, I purchased one of these and swore never again. The sound was terrible - I think ABKCO never quite learnt how to make SACD's. I certainly wouldn't class this old news as 'another nail in the coffin' for SACD. In fact, these titles could only be bad publicity for the format. ABKCO did the format a big favour by ceasing production afaic. Now if only they'd get rid of all the old Dylan SACD's as well and replace them with a decent selection. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 399 Registered: Nov-05 | Naxos to cease SACD production? Another Stereophile 'old news' scoop! http://www.stereophile.com/news/032006naxos/ For comments: http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/12198//y?page=first |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 737 Registered: Feb-04 | Rantz, Which Stones SACD did you buy? The Stones SACDs have generally received excellent reviews among audiophiles in the US, but some of their albums were poorly recorded to start with. They sound bad in any format. I don't understand why you're glad that the SACD catalog is shrinking, especially titles that are popular and lasting. As has been pointed out ad infinitum, the paucity of SACD and DVD-A titles is a major problem with the formats. BTW it's good to read that you're out of harms way. Let's hope your fellow Aussies up north are able to weather the storm. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 400 Registered: Nov-05 | 2C - I bought "Let it Bleed" - and it was gawd awful! I had read the same about many of the others. Yes I had read similar 'good reviews' also - I think by the same people who raved about T-Rex and Bowie's . . . Spiders from Mars SACDs. Very average at best imho. I think its good for the format not have titles that don't do it any favours. I realise that Blu-Ray and HDDVD are on the horizon and I while I don't obssess over whether or not the current hi-res formats last, I certainly hope they do. Yet, I do believe at least SACD will be around for some time if not DVD-A - though it may be reborn with the advent of Dolby TrueHD. I just have fears for a future of downloaded music - the look, the feel, the art, the info etc will be lost and music will become part of the hermatically sealed world we are beginning to experience. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 401 Registered: Nov-05 | Oh and thanks for your kind thoughts 2C. Yes, thank goodness lives were spared. Most of the damage was to crops and buildings etc. Good thing it wasn't a heavilly populated area. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 739 Registered: Feb-04 | Rantz, A lot of the classic rock albums from the 60's and 70's were poorly recorded. I'm not sure if the fault is in the source material or the format. I haven't heard any good recordings of "Let It Bleed" in any format, whereas there are very good recordings of "Beggars Banquet". Go figure. IMHO SACD may stay around as an audiophile format, sharing the same obscure fate as reel-to-reel tape. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1187 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - first you, then us. We just got word by TV News tonight that we should expect an "extraordinarily hot and violent storm season" this season. Oh, good - just when the plants blown away by Wilma last year are beginning to bloom. . .sigh. Mer is making very pointed suggestions that we move - but the house-sale market here is dead in the water. People who put their homes up for sale last September still have no buyers. Soooo - we're getting out the emergency equipment (again) and checking everyting twice. Hmm. . . add to theat, our governor just announced that he expects bird flu here by late summer - at which time he'll close the shipping ports and airports. Oh, good. Another piece of great news! Rantz - you and from what you post, your relatives, escaped the wrath of the ill-named storm, "Larry." Good news from you - which we hope continues. And now I have to worry about Blu-ray? Rriiiiiiiiiiiiighttt. . . . . . . . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 405 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Larry From what I hear (or have read) global warming seems to be the culprit for these weather conditions, but then, as far back as I can remember, we have always had these weather conditions - every few years a bit more intense than others perhaps. 2C You may well be correct as I have not heard all the ABKCO 'sacds' - although some are are only dsd remastered and are not true sacd's (as stickered by some shops here). Deep Purple's 'Machine Head' and the Dan's Gaucho are very good SACD examples of 70's music - so with the right people at the helm, it can be done. Of course, as you say, the original recordings do need to be well engineered. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4021 Registered: Dec-03 | I have number of Naxos DVD-As. The emphasis is definitely surround sound. None has high-res two-channel. From their web site. DVD-Audio is an exciting, flexible format which, through its enhanced storage capability and advanced compression technology, allows listeners to experience music like never before. The Naxos DVD-A includes: Original Advanced-Resolution Surround Recording 5.1 Dolby Digital AC-3 DTS Surround Sound The Naxos DVD-Audio can be played on all existing DVD-Audio and DVD-Video machines. The Naxos SACD is a multi-format hybrid mastered in direct-stream digital technology, with the capability to reproduce the original recorded sounds at a high resolution rate. The Naxos SACD includes: A CD Stereo layer 2-Channel Stereo Mastered in DSD 5.1 multichannel surround mastered in DSD The Naxos SACD can be played on all existing SACD and CD players, although 5.1 reproduction will not be realised on CD player playback. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 406 Registered: Nov-05 | I am expecting a Naxos DVD-A with my latest hi-res order (Holst:Planets etc) so I'll give my appraisal of their sq then, John. Btw - I think you recommended this to me eons ago :-) What riles me in this hi-res business is that many seem to be going out of their way to ensure its demise. There is a new Aussie on-line music store selling hi-res titles. And I can still buy them from the states (acousticsounds.com & cduniverse.com) reasonably cheaper then buying from this new local business (australiansacd.com). Even with smaller overheads (than fancy stores), they still want to charge the earth! I shall continue to buy my hi-res titles from overseas, because so far, the prices are very good to okay, and the service (with both companies) has been top notch. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4024 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, My Rantz, "The Planets" is a good one. Make sure you can hear the beginning of "Mars" at a nice. audible level, and then prepare for awesomeness. Only wimps run and hide. Think tanks. As above, there is no two-channel on that disc. I never got into the filler, "The Mystic Trumpter". |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 134 Registered: Dec-05 | John, Re: the shops - I'll be in the financial district. If you've recommendations you can mail me at paul.folbrecht at veribox.net. Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4025 Registered: Dec-03 | Paul, Done. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 873 Registered: Dec-03 | I sense that DVD-A and SACD will be supplanted by Hi-Rez HD and Blu-Ray recordings with the new DTS and Dolby multichannel codecs and maybe some other lossless codecs. With the added bandwidth the music business will be able to put scrolling pics and lyrics on while the music plays. Could have interviews and other things. Lord knows that the music industry needs to find a compelling format to bring in more music listeners into purchasing discs, rather than just downloading. Ultimately it will be up to them how much extra value they add in the new discs. That said, I won't hold my breath waiting and will still play DVD-A's and SACD's. I certainly don't plan on being an early adopter on Blu-Ray or HD. Particularly until I see what shakes out and if anything interesting becomes extensively available. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 137 Registered: Dec-05 | I'd upgrade players and buy new media for scrolling lyrics and interviews for sure. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 414 Registered: Nov-05 | I'd like the music formats to be for music and the movie formats to be for movies - with the exception of concert/clips DVD's. My only gripe with DVD-A is those times when having to use the OS menu to select the mlp stereo track. When listening to music I think video displays are distracting. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1731 Registered: Dec-04 | Paul, doesn't kareoke do that now, and subtitles for hearing impaired do that now? |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 138 Registered: Dec-05 | Nuck, You knew I was exuding sarcasm with that last comment, right? :-} The Shanling player has arrived. It sounds great with redbook and even better with SACD. Listening to Chesky's Area 31 now - does indeed sound like vinyl without the pops and hissing. I like. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1751 Registered: Dec-04 | Paul, we need a little smiley for sarcasm. Of course I knew you were being sarcastic!(Doh)! Please continue to give your opinion of the player, I be listening. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1193 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul: Sooooo - is it the tubes, the DACs, the quality components - or all of the above - that make the Shanling "sound like vinyl?" Do you actually hear measurable differences between this player and your former one(s)? I only ask these because I have a devil of a time hearing any differences between hi-end players. El-cheapo ones, yeah, but the "good" ones - not with my ears! (grin) Very happy for you - and I hope that the Shanling exceeds all your expectations, sir. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1194 Registered: Oct-04 | Rantz: Video displays are only good if they're BLUE! (big grin) I'd just like a player whose front-end display I could actually read - the Yammie has dot-based orange (cringe) display that is nearly unreadable. I want very much to see what the new HK display looks like. But now I'm told that the latest "release date" is April 6. 2C - please note - I just got the SACD version of the Vivaldi "Vespri per l'Assunzione di Maria Vergine" - after playing your so-kindly-sent RedBook version. The sound quality on the SACD far surpasses the CD, as expected. Thanks for leading me to this inspired and inspiring work, sir! Just one problem: the SACD does not contain all that the 2-CD version does - BUT - there's enough there to satisfy me, for sure! THANKS AGAIN, 2C. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 141 Registered: Dec-05 | I meant more like analog on SACD. Redbook, it is indeed very much like the MiniMax - it has the airiness, smoothness, and extended treble that I've loved about the MNM. The SACD benefits are subtle (heard them before, but not in my system, in a controlled environement), yet almost unmistakable after a few seconds of listening. Is this the ultimate format? The noise floor, dynamic range, and detail of digital with the analog smoothness of vinyl? I don't know... I probably prefer it to most every vinyl rig I've heard, though. Believe it or not, the tube vs. SS outputs make *little* difference. I have them both connected to two inputs on my preamp and can switch back and forth in .5s. I need a good deal of time listening to notice any change - although the output levels are not the same which is annoying. Of course, my pre and power stages are tube; if all the gain was SS, I'd probably hear a lot more out of the tubed CDP output than I am. Paul |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1195 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul: Sounds like you are pretty sure of your abilities to hear differences - I envy you that. Whenever I go into one of what passes for "hi-end" audio emporiums of lost hope here in Swampville I know I'm in for a fall. First, the mopes in the store pretty much know they're not going to make a buck on me - second, they really don't like geezers in their stores, unless they step out of Rolls Royces, that is! (grin) Even so - I have a major problem in dealing with nuances in sound. give me a 20 db volume change, and I'm OK - but differences in "sound stage, detail and smoothness" somehow go in one ear, then get stuck in the "trying to figger it out" portion of my aging brain. In matters of SACD vs. CD, however, both Mer and I pretty much agree that the differences are large enough to be able to pinpoint them easily. In most cases, anyway. We've bought a few SACDs that had sound qualities lower than that of CDs. Sigh. I think I'll leave this threat to youze guyze who have better brain-tuning! Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1196 Registered: Oct-04 | Hmmm . . .think I meant "leave this THREAD" - no threat intended! (grin) LR |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 143 Registered: Dec-05 | I don't have golden ears. Differences in high-quality interconnects, for example, I find to be very subtle. I need to listen long and hard to both to discern between WW Polaris and Nordost Blue Heaven, for example (both of which I auditioned and kept the WW because of, I thought, very slightly fuller bass). But what I've heard on the SACDs I own so far is subtle, but unmistakable. An additional element of liquidity and soundstage layering I really don't hear from CDs. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4035 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks for stating your contrasting views and experiences, Paul and Larry. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1197 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul, John, et al: Know what you mean re SACD - tonight, as I was listening to the new SACD of Vivaldi, I realized that I had not done my usual "cleaning routine" on the disc. I awayed to the den, where I did the two-step polishing and green-lining. Went back to living room and put on disc. About five minutes later, Mer came out of her studio and asked if I'd changed the stereo controls, as the music sounded more "precise." Nope, I said - just cleaned the disc. Hmm. . .we both heard more precise attack and much clearer delineation of instruments - as we usually do. OK - monsters in the bushes, or actual hearing differences? (grin) Your choice. . .our pleasure. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1796 Registered: Dec-04 | Thank-you for your posts, Larry. Although for different reasons, we both seem to have been robbed of the finer points of audio stimulation. Although being non-the-finer of audio tunists, I think we still share the pleasure of the music, the pride of ownership and the pleasentry of the forum here. I tilt one to you, Larry. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4037 Registered: Dec-03 | Well put, sir. I'll drink to that. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 429 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, please explain to Nuck about your cd enhancing process again - and to refresh my memory also :-) I'll may as well have a drink too - since I have so few these days :-( Bottoms up! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1198 Registered: Oct-04 | Rantz: Sir - at the risk of boring most of the Dogs, I'll keep my "instructions" brief-as-possible. Going WAY back, I started using Walker's "Vivid" CD cleaning solution. Worked VERY well - brought out clarity and improved sound overall. Controversial. . . To save money, I did a LOT of research, and settled on two products by the (seriously) Zaino Bros. Car Care company. Called them, talked with the boss, who uses the products himself on both show cars and his big CD collection. Now - first - I LIGHTLY sand the inner and outer rims of the CDs. Then I lay on either black marking pen or a product guaranteed NOT to damage the plastic: Staedtler Lumocolor 317 green permanent marker. This "supposedly" stops laser-scatter. I think it does, but others don't. then - I put each disc in my home-made cleaning stand, which simply is an old CD jewel box with a thin cork pad. this keeps the CD in place, and cushioned. then - I dab on a liddle spot of Zaino Z-14 "plastic magic." NOTE: Use "ONLY" Kleenex Viva paper towels for this - others will scratch. Anyway - put on a dab, and very gently wipe it on to cover in a thin layer. Keep it thin!!! Let dry - then use more Viva towels to carefully remove the gunk. Wipe mainly inside to outside, though frankly I do circular motion with no problems. THEN - I spray one small spritz of the second product - Zaino Z-6 Ultra Clean gloss enhancer" on another paper towel. I gently wipe this onto the CD - and turn over the towel to wipe dry - I do not let this liquid dry on the disc. When I'm through, the difference in the "look" of the CD is amazing - and when I used a super-strong magnifying glass, the surface was, indeed, smoother. Zaino products claim 100% optically perfect coating, and I believe it - but then, many people think I'm just plain NUTZ. Right, Jan?? Now - both Mer and I have made rather extensive tests - and have determined to our personal satisfaction, that this stuff works. Really. . . OK, Rantz, et al - there you have it. Hope it helps you decide whether to take such steps. Ask Jan V. for his opinion - which I value, BTW. If you think Zaino is zany, go Online and order up some of Walker's Vivid - at about $50. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1199 Registered: Oct-04 | Rantz/Nuck, et al - forgot to add - - the Zaino Z-6 has anti-static qualities, as well as giving a "transparent" look to the CDs. I like it. LR |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 433 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Larry - I once tried to find the Zaino Z-14 here but with no luck. I'll try to find these products again as I'm interested in your tweak. The "Vivid" would work out to about $85 here - a bit too much for the experiment. Not that I doubt what you say - I don't - just wondering about the benfit/cost ratio. Cheers. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 434 Registered: Nov-05 | Well - seems Zaino has a website here downunder - this stuff ain't too cheap either. http://www.zainobros.com.au |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1822 Registered: Dec-04 | Larry, I have no doubt that your prodedure produces the cleanest cd's in town. Nor Do I doubt the your procedure is painsakingly procedural, reboubled by polishing in a second phase. I also have no doubt that my wife would beat me over the head and shoulders with a 2x4 if I ever tried your proven method. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7998 Registered: May-04 | Nuck - How many things do you do when your wife isn't looking? I can add my testimony to the CD cleaning procedure. It works. I don't bother sanding the edges of the disc since the marking pen should do the same task (minimize laser scatter) in a different manner. Sanding and shaving the disc's edges seems less effective to me since the method didn't block the laser travelling through the CD's substrate, but instead just diffused it some more. 'Sides one slip of the 4" wide Craftsman belt sander and there goes any trace of Elvis. This topic was discussed on Old Dogs quite a ways back. I use Anti-Static Pledge "Clean and Dust" spray as my first cleaner and an everyday cleaner. I have an old container of Final CD cleaner that provides the felt pad for wiping and the rubber pad to fit under the upside down CD in the jewel case. The felt pad is designed so there can only be side to side movement when wiping the disc. Larry sent me some of the Walker product and it was a slight bit better than the Pledge though at several dozen times the cost. He also sent me some of the Zaino which is an improvement over the Walker and at a much more reasonable cost per disc though not as cheap as the Pledge. So the Zaino is reserved for any disc that is outstanding enough on its own merits to warrant a really good cleaning. One cleaning lasts for several plays as a rule. But the Pledge is super cheap and does a credible job of cleaning away the crud between the laser and the 1's and 0's. I've asked non-audiophile friends to listen as I work my way up from new, untreated disc through Pledge to Zaino and they have claimed to hear an improvement despite not knowing what I was doing to the disc or why they were listening. My only question to them was whether they felt the second and third plays were identical to the first time through. There's is no going back to double check the results so they may have been influenced by the question, but they are not that interested in how my system sounds otherwise. The remarks were consistent and always about the same improvements I was hearing. I suggested to the Old Dogs that they try the Pledge to begin with. It's extremely cheap and will make an audible improvement in the playback quality - or not. If you can't hear a difference with the Pledge treatment, don't spend your money on the other treatments. Use either a cosmetic sponge or the Viva towels to spread and wipe clean the disc after applying a very small amount of Pledge. A felt pad works well if you clean it between every dozen or so cleanings. Probably a micro fiber cloth would work also. Use the least amount that allows you to spread the material over the entire disc; then listen. As a rule this is an improvement which is easy enough to hear and is more than the magnitude of doing a very good cleaning of connections in your system. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1201 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan et al: Yep - you've obviously gone the second mile in trying out the cleaning thangs. . .I applaud you for this. Now, I, too, will try the Pledge. the Zaino products (in the US) seem to me to be a viable and affordable solution to a nagging problem with "sound grunge" on the CDs. One point MUST be made: IF you are going to use paper towels - use ONLY Kleenex "Viva." Nothing else will give you scratch-free rubbing. Trust me on this, please! Nuck: if your wife is as inflexible as you make her out to be - well, there's always desertion! (grin) Hey, talk to the lady! She'll probably appreciate some interchange of ideas. Mer and I talk constantly, and work out minor diff-runces before they become timbers instead of slivers. Words of wisdom from an ole Dog who's been arounde for a long, long, long time. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1202 Registered: Oct-04 | Rantz: after looking at the Aussie web site - you are right, the stuff ain' cheap. But please consider that the cost of one botle of Z-14 and one bottle of Z-6 will clean every single CD you own at least three times, and it breaks down to an irritant, rather than a bankruptcy issue. Really. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1837 Registered: Dec-04 | Not to interrupt, but I think my projection of my wife may have been misunderstood. The picture of my wife whacking me over the head and shoulders would be one of forcing me out a neuroces of cleanliness. This is not meant to be a knock against anyone who cleans discs regularly. May I make clear that H is a lovely woman, a great fit for a nuck, and does not impedede my nuckness in any way. I am a fortunate man. Please understand that any comments may be made in jest, and I am in no way unappapreciative of my partner. Further, my local charity is the Shelter for Women, and no form of physical, verbal or mental abuse is withstood in this home. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4047 Registered: Dec-03 | From Old Dogs circa late 2004, I still have two CD disc images, on a web location. One image was made from a Vivid-treated disc; the other was made from a Vivid-non-treated disc, otherwise identical to the first. I do not know which is which. The person who kindly did the treatment, whom we know, does not know which is which. However, there is a key to find out, when the double-blind trial is done. I have my half of the key, at least. We should need a reasonable sample size. Any volunteers? The questions will be "Is there an audible difference - Y/N" and "If Y, which sounds better - A or B?" It does not matter if people have preconceived ideas, or what they are. It cannot affect the result. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1203 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan: Just had an epiphany today, when casting about for new and better cleaning ideas. There is a product on the market called Pledge for Electronics. Do you know it? It's designed specifically for TVs and computers and electronics equipment - but NOT for wood. Anti-static and from what I read a very good cleaner. I'll away to a store today to buy some and try it out on the CDs. It SHOULD do a great job - but I have no idea of its safety on the polycarbonate. IF it does a fine job, it will be a very cheap alternative to all of my other cleaning recommendations - I believe it costs about $7 USD per container. So why haven't I heard of this before? Hmm. . . .anyway, I loved your comment on the belt sander! (grin) As for my probably-idiotic rim-sanding, I just read that it may help stop light-reflection. I know it seems to help put an even ink-coat on the rims. And BTW, I use a "green scrubbie" and not sandpaper! John: Not quite sure what you're asking, sir. What form of testing do you have in mind? But I'm game, if I am able to do it. But if it involves fancy computer footwork, I may fall down! (grin) For all - I must repeat - IF you do any of this disc-cleaning - either use the products that Jan does, or ONLY Viva paper towels. Believe me when I say that all others will scratch - I tried this on some old CD-Rs - and Viva is THE one to use. Or you'll be sorry. . . One final note - the Zaino product I use for part one is NOT a car wax - it is designed to clean and clear plastic windows, such as race-car windows or airplane windows. No wax in it, nor should there be. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 744 Registered: Feb-04 | "The remarks were consistent and always about the same improvements I was hearing." Jan and Larry, What are the improvements you're hearing? How often do you apply the Pledge/Zaino? Once? Before each play? |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1205 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - good to hear from you again, sir! I know Jan will respond, but let me say that the "improvements" I hear are - tighter bass, smoother highs, and an overall "clarification" of the instruments being played. In other words - I can pick out individual instruments better, and their placement is more pronounced. On some CDs/SACDs, I must admit that the difference is nearly impossible to spot - on others, the clarity jumps out at me. Also - the VIDEO on DVDs is much, much clearer with the Zaino products - or Vivid, which I no longer use for budget reasons. I apply the Zaino only one time - but every so often I'll re-apply if the disc has been in-and-out of the box a lot. The discs I treated over a year ago still maintain their shine - and have not either dulled or yellowed or anything. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 435 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry and Jan Thanks a lot for retelling the cd enhancement story. I did try a quick search throught the archives but ran out of time. Now I remember :-) Last time I looked for the pledge product, I only came across a lemon scented one and was afraid that ingredient may ultimately do something to the plastic. I'll try to find the correct one again and try that before paying for the more expensive Zaino products. And of course Kleenex Viva paper towels. I am interested to find if I hear the difference. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1206 Registered: Oct-04 | Rantz: see if you can find that Pledge for Electronics, maybe at a home office-type store? I'm very interested in trying that one! You were right in rejecting the lemon-scent Pledge - and Jan uses a specific formula - anti-static "Clean and Dust.. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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