Receiver Upgrade - Denon vs. Onkyo vs. Marantz
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New member Username: NemesjPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-06 | I'm looking to upgrade my 10 year old Onkyo surround receiver and was hoping someone could provide insight into what receiver would pair well with my Paradigm Studio 60's v1 and Studio CC. My use is about 65% music / 35% HT. I was considering one of the three models: Denon AVR-3805 Onkyo TX-SR803 Marantz SR-7500 Any thoughts on these three receivers? And what about the manufacturers does any one have a better reputation than the others? Thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 960 Registered: Nov-04 | onkyo sucks balls im afraid to say. scratch that one out. i would personally take the marantz since you are more into music than HT. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3765 Registered: Mar-05 | I'd also vote for the Marantz 7500 of those 3, but with its +$1k pricetag I think the better option would be to pick up a cheaper AVR with amp pre-outs and add an external 2-channel amp to power those Studio 60s. http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/item/MARSR5400BLKA with this http://www.yawaonline.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=YO&Product_Co de=NAD_C272&Category_Code=NADAMP |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2002 Registered: Dec-04 | I'm with Ed. A couple of Outlaw m200 mono's should do it. |
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New member Username: StevoMargate, FL. USA Post Number: 10 Registered: Apr-04 | I'm for Marantz. I just got my Marantz SR8500, Paradigm 60, Paradigm 20, cc570 and SVS 20-39+ today and have not had time to calibrate yet. But right out of the boxes and I'm VERY HAPPY with the setup. If you like music the marantz is the way to go. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 963 Registered: Nov-04 | that is also a good idea edster. you dont really need that much wattage for rears unless you want massive movie experience. you would be much better off with a cheaper AVR with similar bells and whistles and a high quality amp for fronts. even a nice stereo reciever from like parasound would do really well let alone mono blocks. |
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Bronze Member Username: IcebergCalgary, AB Canada Post Number: 60 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi jon, AVR 3805 will get my Vote. I love denon products. These guy's been in business for a long time and know how to build receivers. With your Paradigms if your watching mostly HT than would recommend the Denon out of those selections. I would also look into outlaw products. They are great for the budget and highly recommended. Good luck, |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 891 Registered: Dec-03 | I've seen the new Denon AVR2807 online at under $850. It is a much more sophisticated model than the 3805 and has HDMI switching and transcoding properly employed, unlike the 3805. It also has the Audyssey acoustic balancing system and is XM-radio-ready. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 457 Registered: Jul-05 | The Denon AVR2807 is the best choice for the HT part of your percentage. The software is upgradable when HDMI v1.3 comes around you will be able to fully decode the Hi Rez DTS and Dolby audio which you cant do with the other choices. For 2 channel redbook CD/vinyl music however, the outlaw monos choice wins in an easy contest |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 762 Registered: Dec-03 | Jon: As a former owner of a Denon 3803, I do not recommend the Denon. Nor can I recommend the Onkyo, as it will not produce anywhere near its rated power in HT applications. Now, that leaves the Marantz, but as much as I like that receiver, I think it is far from the best choice with paradigm speakers. Paradigms have a very laid back, warm sound, and that also applies to the Marantz. Combined, I find the sound to be somewhat less than involving. I would only buy the Marantz if I could try it out for a week or two with my speakers. If it works for you, then great. If not, I would highly recommend the Outlaw 1070 as a good choice. This can be obtained from Outlaw where they give you a 30 day home trial. Here is the link: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/1070.html Not only is it a very fine receiver, its sound is tailored in a way to work very well with those lovely Paradigm speakers you have. |
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New member Username: NemesjPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-06 | Ok you guys have definitely convinced me to eliminate Onkyo from the running. I never realized how bad their products were viewed. As for separates, I'm not ready to head in that direction, so I'm going to focus on auditioning more a/v surround receivers. Seems as if the Denon & Marantz are favored by the masses so I think I'm going to have to audition them again. But it sounds as if the Marantz beats the Denon hands down on two channel audio? & I guess the Denon is the better way to go on HT? Hawk, regarding the Denon's what turned you off them? & do you think the Outlaw 1070 has enough juice to do the Studio 60's justice? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 770 Registered: Dec-03 | Jon: 1. Denon turned me off even though it worked fine for HT, it absolutely sucks when using it for music. The soundstage is flat, with no depth to it--like listening to a wall. I also found the sound to be rather dry and sterile. I just couldn't justify keeping a $1K receiver that gave me no joy when listening to my music. 2. Another reason why I didn't like my Denon revolves around why the Outlaw has the juice to drive your system. Now, the Denon was rated at 110wpc, as I recall, but when tested, it turns out that Denon, like most mass brands, has an underpowered power supply. It can generate its rated power, but only into two channels at the same time (per the 35 year old FTC standards). When powering 5 channels, it actually fell to about 65-70wpc (per testing by Sound & Vision). Well, the Outlaw is rated at 65wpc into seven channels and that is with all 7 channels driven! If you only drive five channels, you will likely get more than 70 or 75wpc. This is because the most important part of a receiver is the power supply and Outlaw (like NAD), uses a very large power supply that supplies some real dynamic headroom. The Insitute of High Fidelity issued a spec about 30 years ago now, for the amount of peak power an amp can generate for musical transients (sudden power surges caused by drum bangs or other high powered bursts like the cannon shots in the 1812 Overture). Denon doesn't have any headroom (japanese audio engineers do not like the IHF spec and their accountants like it even less as it means the power supply must have more reserves than the engineers think are necessary and that means more cost) since, as I explained, they can't even make their rated power. However, what it means for Outlaw is that the 65wpc x 7 of the receiver can actually generate more like 100wpc x 5 for short bursts (car wrecks, explosions, sudden crescendos in music, etc.). Outlaw does not publish a dynamic headroom spec (like NAD does), but it can be inferred somewhat from their spec on power draw of 885 watts when under full load (65wpc x 7). Conversely, never believe a spec of 100wpc published by a receiver when the total power draw is only 440 watts (Panasonic)! Now, I have actually heard your Studio 60s driven by an NAD T743, which is only about 50 wpc x 5, but it also has good dynamic headroom. The NAD had no trouble driving the 60s (as mains in a five speaker system) in a decent sized room (18 x 14 x 9). Into 5 channels, the Outlaw will have approximately 50% more power than this NAD, so I see no reason why it wouldn't work. 3. I further note that the Paradigms 60s have a sensitivity rating of 88db, which is pretty good. I currently drive Dynaudio Audience 42s with an NAD T753, which is only rated at 70 wpc x 6, and that is with a sensitivity of 84 db (less than half the sensitivity of the Studio 60s, being 4 db lower), and that is in a very large room (20 x 14x 18, not counting the open area to the kitchen). Given those facts, unless you also have a very large room (greater than 4000 cu ft.), I think the Outlaw has plenty of real power. 4. Finally, I note that the Outlaw has a 30 day home trial period. Check it out for yourself--you will never know until you do. In fact, I have had a friend who ordered the Outlaw and got another mass market receiver (rated at 100wpc) when it arrived--he tried both at home and ended up taking the store bought receiver back and keeping the Outlaw. You can always send it back with no questions asked if I am wrong. And, if you do want more power, the 1070 is the same as their 970 separate pre/pro--you would only need to a add a good amp and you have excellent setup of separates if and when you want to do that. 5. And as I stated before, the sound of the Outlaw is the best combo for your speakers, under $1K, IMHO. |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 141 Registered: Dec-05 | Jon, As Hawk already mentioned, the best thing to do is test your speakers with the receivers you want. This is the only way to really tell which receiver can really bring out the full potential of your Studio 60s. Can't really compare 4-ohms speaker and 8-ohms power requirement, unless we really want to go in depth. Sensitivity will not tell you how much power is required to run your speakers to full potential; sensitivity also varies with atmospheric temperature and air density. It's only a measurement at best of the efficiency of the speakers at one point in the performance curve. You will also have to look at the frequency range, max power handling capability, number and size of the drivers, as well as speaker impedance value to give you an "idea" of power requirement. The best gauge is to see how much potential work your speaker can do; this will be an indicator of how much power it will need. Remember that it takes just as much power to stop a driver as it does to push it. Also higher frequencies travel more in a cone shape, lower frequencies are more spherical, and sensitivity specification is measured at 1 m (a cubic meter on-axis), doesn't tell you much about off-axis pressure/performance (an indicator of low frequency response). Your Studio 60v3 goes all the way down to 30hz. This will require a beefy amp to see that low a frequency and have a decent dbA reading. In short, I think you need a good Amp with around 125-wpc rating in 8 ohms and test it in 2 channels and multi-channels and see how you like it. Like Hawk suggested, you can always add monoblocks in the future and along with a power sub, you will have all the bass you want similar to having multiple subs.  Good luck. |
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Bronze Member Username: CroozerRockford, IL United States Post Number: 52 Registered: Feb-06 | You can't go wrong with the Denon and its the only one mentioned that has HDMI switching, the other two are a little behind the times. |
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New member Username: BamaPost Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | You probably can't go wrong with any of them, but if the Onkyo is anything like my new Integra DTR-6.6 you'll be really happy with it. |
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New member Username: NemesjPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-06 | Hawk/Elderion, Thanks for the education on amplifier power. It's definitely helpful in understanding the pro's an con's of the different receivers I'm looking at and it has given me a better idea of what I need to consider in making my purchase. At your prompting I checked out the Outlaw website and think I'm going to take Outlaw up on the 30-day trial and audition the 1070. Although I must say you guys have also peaked my interest in separates. & Outlaw's 970 prepro + 7125 amp might be a fine choice as well. Regardless I'll definitely let you guys know how this goes. Thanks for all the insight. |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 147 Registered: Dec-05 | Jon, The 1070 processor is very good; I think you will be happy with the clarity and presentation. The 970/7125 combo is an excellenct choice if you decide to go with separates. One of my favorite combo. Please keep us updated on the 1070 performance with your Paradigms. Good luck and happy listening. |
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