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New member Username: TcwjonnyPost Number: 1 Registered: Mar-06 | Hey everyone. I recently purchased a house and am looking to finally build a HT system. I was hoping I could get some advice from the gallery about a few things. I need the full setup so let me start with the parameters I know so far. I'm probably looking to spend about 800-1200 on the receiver. $500 for the sub seems to be the going rate, and $350-$450 per speaker. That is roughly my price range. I would say the primary use of the system will be for tv and movies but we do listen to music as well (iPod linkage and PC connection would be cool). I would like HDMI port switching but other than that I just want a great sounding system. I tend to like accuracy over loud. The family room is pretty small (sorry I wish I had the measurements...I'll repost them when I can), rectangular and has hardwood flooring. The builder prewired the celing with speaker wire (sorry guys don't know the guage) so I was thinking about going with flush mounted speakers in the rear. I don't know what to do in the front either. The wiring is in the ceiling, so I think I could convince the wife to have some white ceiling mounted speakers as long as they weren't too big. I do have an entertainment center but the wife doesn't want the front speakers in there so I can't use regular bookshelf speakers unless I put them on stands on either side of the entertainment center. That's where I'm at now. First can you recommend a good receiver for me? Second, what do you guys recommend for my speaker situation? Are there any good flush mount speakers or is that not a good way to go? What do I do in the front? Also, I'm located in Sothern California, can you guys recommend some good places to go to hear this stuff? The places I've been just don't have good selection or not everything works etc...Any places that specialize in home audio? I was thinking about doing this myself but should I have a pro handle this install? Your help is appreciated. If this isn't enough information let me know and I'll get back to you. Thanks in advance, Marcus |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1918 Registered: Dec-04 | As for the install, Marcus, that depends on you. Just a quick aside, Women are usually more pleased when spoken of as MY wife, as opposed to THE wife, but I digress. The in ceiling speakers may not be pleasing at all, whereas the stand mounted speakers are a sure bet.Being able to move and toe arounf the speakers will give you a chance to customize and perfect the sound like no designer can. As to your Q about a dealer..YES! Visit several, there must be loads where you are. Don't start with the hardware questions right away, just feel the place out. Visit on a Tuesday and a Saturday, if possible.Have a coffee. You do not need to rush, these guys can deliver in days. You have a chance to do it right, listen a LOT! What kind of music do you listen to, at what level and let us know the room dim's asap. Don't buy in a hurry, Marcus, get ot right! And your lovely wife must agree, because this is a one time, new house purchase(ok I just tossed that one in). Congrats and Enjoy! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3756 Registered: Mar-05 | Jon, If your primary use of this system is "tv and movies" then your budget seems overly generous IMHO. Before I give you some concrete recs, a few questions: 1. How big is your room? Upstairs or downstairs? 2. Just to be more precise, what % of your usage would you estimate is music vs. HT? 3. What kind of movies do you usually watch? Specifically, are you into big-budget action flicks? 4. Is this going to be your only do-it-all system, or do you have another one in a different room? |
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New member Username: TcwjonnyPost Number: 2 Registered: Mar-06 | Sorry I haven't responded in a bit... Nuck: The wife is fine with "the" wife. She also gets refered to as "the girl", so I think the wife is actually an upgrade in her eyes. :-) The room is 13'x11' approximately. I listen to a wide variety of music including: rock (Coldplay/White Stripes), folk (Jack Johnson), girlie music for the wife, hip-hop/rap, classic rock...pretty much anything but country (I just gaged typing that). I have netflix so I watch a lot of movies. I like all sorts of movies but my favorites are adventure movies like Lord of the Rings, war movies like Blackhawk Down and Saving Private Ryan. So big sound is important to me. I also just purchased a 50" Pioneer plasma so I need to match some good sound to my incredible TV. Thirdly I have an Xbox 360 and I like to play video games on the TV so that is something to consider as well. Edster: 1. See Above. 2. Movies/TV 85%. Music 15%. 3. See Above. 4. Yes. I have a sound dock for the iPod in the Kitchen. I'm not wired for outside yet. And the bedroom is going to be a different system. The family room is downstairs btw. Thanks guys, Marcus |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3873 Registered: Mar-05 | 13x11 isn't real big so you'll be fine with bookshelves, and a receiver that puts out at least 50 REAL watts per channel (not fantasy land "100wpc" like most mass-market receivers). 85% HT means you don't need more expensive high-finesse speakers, just accurate and detailed ones coupled with a muscular subwoofer...put the savings into your bedroom system and make that one music-oriented. So what I'd recommend looking at: 2 pairs of Athena AS-B1.2s + one C1.2 center from audioadvisor.com ($400) paired with a warm receiver like a Marantz 5400/5500 from audioadvisor.com ($400) + SVS PB10 subwoofer from svsubwoofers.com, ($480 shipped) If you want to step up to speakers that will be equally good for music as well as HT, you can get 2 pairs of CBM-170SEs + one CMT-340SE center from ascendacoustics.com ($960 shipped) and either get the SVS sub or a Hsu STF-2 for an additional $400 shipped (rolled into the package from Ascend). You can also look at the Ascend HTM-200s which will be slightly easier to position since they are sealed instead of being rear-ported like the 170s, are a bit more compact and a bit easier to wall or ceiling mount. Personally I think that having a music-only system separate from your HT system is the way to go, esp. factoring in different speaker placement factors and the fact that an integrated 2-channel amp or stereo receiver usually produces better 2-channel music results than most surround receivers at the same pricepoint. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3874 Registered: Mar-05 | oh, another option for HT speakers with sub: http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sbs.cfm And also: http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=82.1 |
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New member Username: TcwjonnyPost Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks Edster. I have some HDMI components and was thinking about going with HDMI port switching instead of component. I didn't see that the Marantz had that. Do you think that I should go with the Marantz anyway and switch over to component plus optical, or do you think it's worth it to get the HDMI port switching? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2234 Registered: Dec-04 | Marcus, the Marantz is a good one, and switching to comp + optical might be a good move. HDMI is not written in stone yet, and flexibility might be more prudent until the dust settles. |
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New member Username: TcwjonnyPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | What's the difference between rear-ported and sealed? Do you think the wall mounts on the Ascend speakers will work for mounting them on the celing as well? I think I'm going to have a hard time selling the speaker stands so I want to try and do ceiling mounted if possible. Nuck: Good to know. The single cable of HDMI is pretty nice though. Are there any sub $1000 quality receivers that have HDMI port switching? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 815 Registered: Dec-03 | Jon: Wow, you have a lot of questions. May take some time to answer, so bear with me. First, are you going to insist on HDMI switching? This is important because it has been my expeience that HDMI switching and "great sound" are mutually exclusive. Seems the mass market brands have gone to HDMI switching rather than install a decent power supply into their receivers. But there is one other problem you should be aware of: HDMI has NOT been standardized, so there are a lot of incompatible units out there (some wags have suggested this is to encourage consumers to buy whole systems within a single brand, but I wouldn't know). Outlaw has stated this was the reason they stuck with DVI ports instead of HDMI on there new line of pre/pros and receivers. Now, getting to your system, I think you must keep in mind you have a very small room. 13 x 11 is a typical bedroom size, but a common room size in SoCal (I used to live there). BTW, where in SoCal do you live? Nonetheless, you will not need a large, powerful system. Additionally, with hardwood floors, you are going to have a very lively room. Hardwood floors are very reflective of sound, so I would stay away from any speaker with a metal dome tweeter. A fabric dome tweeter will sound smoother in your room. I would further encourage you to think about either front ported speakers or even on-wall mounted speakers for your fronts to save floorspace. I would stay away from any rear ported speakers as they really need to be about 3 feet from a wall to operate properly. You just don't have that kind of space. Now, In-walls are good, but there are issues with them because their sound will vary somewhat because the space behind the wall will often vary, giving the woofer more or less back pressure--hence variations between the left and right. Addiionally, if you mount them into an interior wall, they create a lot of noise into the room behind them and they have no damping in the wall to control spurious vibrations. If you use them, you need to mount them into an exterior wall, but this can also be problematic as the insulation in the wall may not provide sufficient space. Nevertheless, some manufactureres (Triad, Monitor Audio) have learned to solve the problem by including an integrated back box to control these problems. Given your situation, for rears, I would highly recommend some Monitor Audio CP In-Ceiling speakers (see them here: http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/products/home_cinema/custom/index.htm ). They are really good and are very easy to mount into the ceiling. The Bronze model will be plenty good and run about $200 each. Now, obviously, they can be professionally installed and it will be easy, but if you can handle a pencil, a drill and a compass saw, you can easily install them yourself (hey, even an idiot like me did it, so you know it has to be easy!). In-wall/In-ceiling speakers come with a template so you can draw the hole you need to have right on the wallboard. Then, just drill a starter hole on one edge and use the compass saw to cut along the line you drew. Just be sure you are cutting where the wiring is! Receivers: There are six brands that are honest and provide real power, so they are the only ones I recommend (I do not include high dollar receivers brands in this list as they are well outside your price range, but for the rcord, a B&K or MacIntosh are awesome priducts). Many mass market receiver brands simply rate their power at the minimum required by law, that is, they rate two channels driven into an 8 ohm short to come up with their power rating, but if you are driving five channels in either a movie or SACD, they generally will clip at a mere 1/3 to 1/2 of their rated power (one 100 wpc receiver was bench tested and found to clip at a mere 27 wpc!), and even then the sound will be "thin" and sound like the amp is straining (because it is!). So stick with one of these brands: Harman/Kardon, Marantz, NAD, Outlaw, Pioneer Elite (but not Pioneer!!!), and Rotel. Each of these brands contain a very good power supply capable of providing rich sound worthy of your budget. So here are a few recommendations for systems that will work in your price range: Receivers: frankly, an NAD T743 is all you really need, and you can get it for about $550. Check out the T753 if you go with some very inefficient speakers (such as Dynaudios) which will run about $795. Also consider the Outlaw 1070 (available directly from Outlaw for $899), or a Marantz SR5600 ($600). If you want to stretch your budget here, also consider the Rotel RSX-1057. Front Speakers: a lot of very good choices here, but your small space I think limits you quite a bit. As I think about it, there is one speaker choice that is absolutely perfect for your situation--for your fronts you should seriously look at the Dynaudio Audience 42Ws mounted on the wall for your mains with a 42C for the center installed in the entertainment center with your TV. The 42Ws run about $750/pair and the 42C is about $450. They image beautifully and are very dynamic--these speakers are legends (see a review here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/dynaudio42_e.html ). Their only downside is that they are 4 ohm speakers, so you will need to stick with the NAD receivers as the NAD is the only brand stable enough to drive low impedence speakers. They are also low efficinecy speakers (84db), so I would suggest you get the NAD T753. Here is the list of dealers in California for Dynaudio speakers where you can find a dealer close to you: http://www.dynaudiousa.com/company/dlrpgs/CA.htm Now, another on-wall speaker you can use is the NHT L-5s (http://www.nhthifi.com/products/l5.html ), which are meant to match the looks of a plasma or LCD flat panel and come with a wall mounting bracket. They are also a low efficiency speakers, but they have a higher 6 ohm impedence, meaning you could go with either the NAD, the Marantz or perhaps the Outlaw. Great sound and they generally run about $375 per speaker. With either Dyanudios or NHTs across the front and Monitor Audio Bronze CPs in the ceiling for the rears, you only need a sub. Here I would highly recommend either the Hsu Research STF-1 or the Outlaw LFM-2, either will cost only $299 directly from the Manufacturer. Do Not Be Fooled by their low price! These subs have consistantly outperformed even $1K subs according to many reviews and my own experience. Here are the links to see them: http://www.hsustore.com/stf1.html http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm2.html The true beauty of these subs is that they are tuned to go very low (can't go both low and loud, so most subs are tuned for loud). But with your small room, you don't need loud, you need to go low, so I think one of these will make you very happy. Anyways, those are my thoughts. Let us know how it goes. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2239 Registered: Dec-04 | Marcus, for one, Outlaw uses straight dvi switching, which is convertable to any number of formats, with a box and cable, leaving the choice up to you. The Outlaw line have dvi on some (1070) Im not sure about the lineup. Check the hideout for more detail as Hawk already posted. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 818 Registered: Dec-03 | Marcus: A ported speaker uses the back pressure created by the speakers vibrations to reinforce the bass through a hole in the box. Some speakers port out the front, some port out the back. A sealed speaker (e.g., NHT) does not have a port. They have a sealed box where the rear vibrations are contained within the speaker box to maintain a higher pressure. It is harder to get good bass out of a sealed box, but it can be done very well and sound every bit as good--some think even better. There is no right answer here, merely choices. Ultimately, you should simply avoid a speaker that vents out the back because the sound vented is going to bounce off the back wall and if it is too close to the wall, these reflections are going to introduce a distortion in the soundfield. Since you have such a small room, it will lkely be a problem. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3877 Registered: Mar-05 | > Since you have such a small room, it will lkely be a problem. Hawk makes an excellent point. Accordingly, I would recommend the Ascend HTM-200s over the CBM-170s for your room, with the possible exception of the center channel for which I think the CMT-340SE is worth the bulk and extra placement troubles. You'll have a hard time finding a better sealed design at $300/pair, and a Hsu STF-2 or possibly even the STF-1 will take care of your bass needs. I also concur with the other posters' remarks about HDMI. |
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New member Username: TcwjonnyPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Wow, lot's of good advise guys. It's going to take me a couple of days to dig through all those sites. Sounds like I should stick with DVI or Component with optical then. No problem. The rear speakers are going in the ceiling and there is just dead space above it (attic space) so I'm good on that. The front speakers I was hoping I could mount on the celing as well (since that's where the wiring is) but not flush. I was thinking of a celing bracket type situation, where the speaker would be pointed toward the couch. I could do a wall mount but then I'd have to run a cable to the wall from the celing. Anyway, I'm going to check out all those receivers and all the speakers you guys have recommened and get back to you guys. Also, I live in Torrance so if anyone knows of any good stores to check out that have these high end receivers (I haven't seen this type of stuff at Best Buy etc...) let me know. Thanks again for all your help. I'll be back with an update in a couple of days. Marcus |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3895 Registered: Mar-05 | hmm...so you live in SoCal!!! The good news, Ascend is just down the road from you in Gardenia so you can just pop over there and listen to their speakers in-store and tour their factory if you like. The bad news is, you'll have to pay CA sales tax if you order the Ascends... You can also contact a fella on the Ascend forum named Curtis Chang, I think he lives in Newport Beach and is usually very happy to let people come listen to his Ascends. |