What exactly IS "reference level?"
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3752 Registered: Mar-05 | Did a Google search but nothing. When someone says "these speakers sound really good at reference levels"---for some reason I always thought they were talking about 100db with an SPL meter, which is way too loud for me. |
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Bronze Member Username: MofoknowsPost Number: 37 Registered: Mar-06 | http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=37023 "Soundhound SoundandVisionary Total Posts: 1,828 Last Post: 10/10/2005 Member Since: 7/5/2004 Date: 12/18/2004 3:27:56 PM Author: AndyBogard What is reference level? I keep hearing the term, but no explanation. "Reference" level is that setting on your receiver or preamp that will play back movies on your system at the same volume level the film was originally mixed at. Some receivers and preamps have the reference setting as "0", with plus and minus numbers above and below this point. Others have "0" at full clockwise rotation of the volume control, with the "reference" setting somewhere below that, such as -10dB. This varies between receivers/preamps and the best source of information on where exactly the "reference" setting on your receiver is would be the owner's manual. You should ideally set your receiver's volume control at this setting and set the trim controls so that the speakers are outputting 75 or 85dB (in the case of the Avia disk) for each speaker." I make no claims as to the accuracy of the quoted info, but it is at least a start. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1892 Registered: Dec-04 | Something you read, Wiley? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8049 Registered: May-04 | In the context of your quotation, the term "reference level" means nothing in particular. A reference level is typically used to set up equipment to a standardized input or output voltage. In a recording or broadcast studio, it might mean referencing all equipment to a consistent -3, 0 or +3dB level. Any tape or other data can then be set to a level which matches all the other equipment in the studio. "Reference level" in this case will suggest a voltage level into a piece of equipment that will result in a fixed level of voltage from the outputs of the equipment. Tape equipment must be set to a reference level, for which there will be a tone provided at the front of the tape, in order to establish levels which will drive the system to full input/output voltage without distortion or overdriving the tape/electronics and yet maintain a consistently high noise floor. In an amplified concert, the sound check provides the reference level for the mixing board. THX equipment must meet standardized "reference levels" which are stated SPL levels at certain frequencies for determined time periods in order to qualify for certification. For the quotation you have suggested, this is most likely the meaning of the term. However, without any further clarification, it is not a truly useful concept. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1894 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, I am looking for the last time we all did this thread to link, but i canna. Rats! The one with the Gino's pizza. |
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Bronze Member Username: MofoknowsPost Number: 40 Registered: Mar-06 | You figured that one out all by yourself Nuck? What a brain!!! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1898 Registered: Dec-04 | What is that Wiley, how to ask a question? You might try. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4053 Registered: Dec-03 | Isn't "Reference level" the sound pressure level experienced at the performance ...? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8051 Registered: May-04 | "Isn't "Reference level" the sound pressure level experienced at the performance ...?" Which would be what? And it would be taken from what row? Yes, this goes to the idea of setting levels before an amplified performance, but I think your suggestion still leaves much to be desired, John. Nuck - Gino's? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 464 Registered: Nov-05 | To add to John's comment - would not individual venues have their own 'reference levels' metered from some 'reference' point by those who have experienced that venue previously? Also, can't reference levels be a personal thing? We have our own 'reference' recordings to audition speakers etc. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1901 Registered: Dec-04 | Reference level are considered to be benchmarks as produced by the manufacturers. Automobiles are often produced and introduced as 'the benchmark', being the one against all others are measured. Audio manufacturers often use this term to purport 'this is the benchmark' but only to their own standards. All 'reference pieces should be held in context to the makers own products. I should say that the perfect pizza comes from Gino's, and all other pies should be compared to this particular pie. However, you may prefer anchovies, which would salt the reference pie to my liking, so now you call the said pie to be the reference pie, aqs far as anchovie pizza's go. But my pie is still the best, benchmark, and therefore the pie to be reckoned with. Thus, the 'reference'. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 844 Registered: Dec-03 | What exactly IS "reference level?" 11 |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1905 Registered: Dec-04 | Spinal tap, 11? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1906 Registered: Dec-04 | Eveybody else's amplifiers go to '10' Look Ours go to Eleven. Eleven, Eleven, Eleven |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8054 Registered: May-04 | Nuck - You are referring to "reference products" not "reference levels". Two different things verging on becoming three. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1912 Registered: Dec-04 | Miss Emily Latella says 'never mind'. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1913 Registered: Dec-04 | But reference levels vary so much from maker to maker, film to film, and studio to studio, a fixed reference, except by definition, seems a bit broad based for comparison. How can a 0Db reference be used when comparing so many differing input and recording levels of electric guitars, already sent through mixers, amps and soaks? |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 131 Registered: Dec-05 | Don't forget air density and temperature, Nuck.  |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8056 Registered: May-04 | "How can a 0Db reference be used when comparing so many differing input and recording levels of electric guitars, already sent through mixers, amps and soaks?" Ok, if we're talking about professional studio equipment (not consumer audio) and reference levels, we have a few things to consider. If you are trying to establish a "reference level" for an electric guitar to either record or distribute through an amplification system, you are trying to establish the highest voltage which will not overdrive the electronics. This is merely an adjustment of either the guitar's own output or the input level to the mixer/pre amp by adjusting the sliders. After we have up to 136 tracks of various instruments, each track is mixed down to the prevailing number of channels and the levels are established to allow the highest input voltage without distortion and providing the lowest noise floor. Each track will have a "reference level tone" which will establish its correct level as the tapes travel between production studios. The actual level/voltage may vary slightly but this would be notated and agreed upon by each studio. Each piece of equipment that is likely to be used in this process will either have a level set adjustment or will expect a "reference level" to be coming from whatever piece of equipment feeds it a signal. So even though a signal might arrive at a studio with a level that reads minus 1.5dB, the level set adjustment can bring it up or down to the agreed upon "reference level". If that level is agreeed to be 0dB, then that is the "reference level". I'm sure you know some emgineers prefer to let the levels run high or low depending on the application. Analog recording techniques can withstand the instantaneous burst above 0dB while digital is more sensitive to levels never reaching above 0dB. In essence, there are no "reference" levels since everything can be raised or lowered. The only reference voltage is when calibrating a piece of equipment for intial set up. At that point a standard voltage input is typically, if I remember correctly, 2 volts into the tape deck/mixer/pre amp/flanger, etc. and the power amplifier will have a sensitivity of 0.75 volts to develop full power. But without some form of aggreeement as to what is "reference level" tapes couldn't travel between studios and expect accurate reproduction. While somewhat interesting, I doubt this is what ed's comment refers to. My guess would be it is a reference to the levels required to meet THX certification. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 437 Registered: Jul-05 | In HT speak, its 85 decibels. So -3 DB below reference is 82 etc. I use 75db as my own reference when recalibrating...whatever |
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Silver Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 111 Registered: May-05 | The nature of the answer to this question is wholly dependant on the context in which the phrase was used. Before you can define a level, you need to extablish what "reference" implies. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 22 Registered: Nov-04 | Reference level is Mc Donald's. It's everywhere, it's all crap and it can seriously damage you in you are exposed to in constantly. To my knowledge there are two "reference levels" one is the one Jan described for recording. 0dBFS, or 0dBV. This is for recording only and not live music, you tell me if the reference level at a Rap gig and a Symphony performance are the same. By the way they both use amplification, most of the time. Unless it's Carrot top rapping! And "reference level" in HT speak which is becoming it's own terminology and clic, mostly because of forums like these. Is 85db. Which is totally incorrect. Remember that this all started in '82, and this is what has become the standard because it started it all. Take a read. Before we start talking about the pieces and parts, we first need to take a quick refresher on the concept of "Reference Level", as you are going to be hearing that term quite a bit in the coming paragraphs. Simply stated, Reference Level is a standard, known, predictable and reproducible playback volume level. When movie sound tracks are crafted, they are done so on systems which are locked at this level. The sound artist does not play around with a big volume knob when doing his/her work. If the sound artist wants something to be loud, they make that sound loud within the sound track. When they want something to be soft, they make that element soft within the sound track. Movie theaters set their playback level by the exact same rules, so when the movie is shown, you hear EXACTLY what the sound artist heard when they were making the piece. Loud, soft, in-between, it's all there, and no one touches the master volume knob over the course of a two-hour movie. To achieve THX certification, components must play at this reference level without breaking, distorting, buzzing, rattling or any other distracting effects. Reference level is by any definition, objective or subjective, quite loud. It basically mirrors the dynamic range of the studio system, which in the case of all movie sound tracks, is 105 dB. Any single channel of the system is calibrated to play 0 dB FSD (the loudest sound the sound track can contain) at 105 dB (115 dB for the LFE channel). While that is really, REALLY loud, its important to remember that there is 105 dB of dynamic range and the artist can put a sound at any level they want. So while a system's volume may be set to reference level, dialogue within the sound track can, and most often is, at a normal, natural level. Reference level, with the dynamic range available, permits a movie to have that normal, natural dialogue, and then suddenly a spectacular, loud car chase without anyone touching the volume control. Every element in the sound track comes out as it should. Now, having said all that, watching a movie at reference level in a home theater is almost never done. It can be extremely loud to begin with, but the close spaces typical of home theaters make it perceptibly even more so. Reference level is still very important in home theater though for several reasons. Because it is the absolute loudest a sound track should ever be played, its fairly intuitive that its a good idea to have a system that can competently go that loud. It gives you a sort of "safe maximum" volume level, even though you may never push it that high. Even more important though is knowing what volume you are at RELATIVE to reference level because if we go too low, we literally lose the quietest sounds since they are pushed below the audible threshold, surrounds lose their presence, the perceived spectral distribution of the track is altered, and dialogue intelligibility suffers. Not my words. Could be Jan's what do you think. Find the source. It's just a test. |
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Bronze Member Username: MofoknowsPost Number: 51 Registered: Mar-06 | "In the context of your quotation, the term "reference level" means nothing in particular." Jan Vigne Very helpful huh, Edster. I now know a lot more on the subject. Glad others chimed in on this tread. I learned a lot. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8058 Registered: May-04 | Plain language escapes plain thinkers. Don't start, Wiley. |
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New member Username: Beastie1Frisco, TX United States Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | The Mortal One, thank you very much for such a nice post and answer. There are many "know it alls" on this forum with too many smarty pants responses. I really appreciate you taking the time to post it. |
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Bronze Member Username: MofoknowsPost Number: 53 Registered: Mar-06 | Hey man, I'm chillin' like Nuck suggested. You should do the same. Merely trying to figure out how helpful you are to us all. |
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Bronze Member Username: MofoknowsPost Number: 54 Registered: Mar-06 | Yeah Mortal One, thanks. Learned a lot more from your post than my original bare bones submission. For some reason, you used a lot more words to say essentially the same thing. Undertanding is a wonderful thing. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8061 Registered: May-04 | Harrassment has been reported to the administrator. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/suggestions/212811.html |
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Bronze Member Username: MofoknowsPost Number: 56 Registered: Mar-06 | Great job. Keep up the good work. Make sure you report yours as well. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8065 Registered: May-04 | I assume you cannot get me out of your mind, Wiley. Might I ask; my what? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 861 Registered: May-05 | Well, I appreciated Mortal One's input and it made sense. Jan, as always, appreciated the post and understood about 80%, give or take 10%, so I know more than I did and am left knowing that I don't know enough. Dale, I don't think you said what you thought you said but you said something and I understood that much. Now, you and Jan place nice, if possible. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8066 Registered: May-04 | To the other members, I apologize for the continued interruption perpetrated by Dale Wiley to any discussions on this forum. He seems to have an unnatural obssession with derailing a thread in order to confront me personally. At the moment the administrator is allowing this to happen. This will eventually lead us back to the same position in which the forum found itself back in the summer and fall of last year. No business was conducted at that time due to the constant and incipient harrassment of some members of the forum. Since the administrator is the only person who can put an end to this conduct, I invite you all to voice any opinions you have, in whom so ever's favor they might be, on the following thread; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/suggestions/212811.html If you would prefer to have any thread where I comment hijacked by nonsensical comments toward my character, then you can let this matter go unnoticed. If you would, on the other hand, prefer to keep the forum as peaceful as it has been since Wiley's initial ban from the forum, please, voice your opinion not only on the administrator's thread but on ever thread where you feel the conversation is being derailed for the benefit of one person. I have no problem with logical debate of any statement which I make on this forum. I do resent personal disparagement for its own sake. It's your forum, you decide how it will continue. |
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Bronze Member Username: MofoknowsPost Number: 58 Registered: Mar-06 | Jan, if you haven't figured this out yet, you need a lot more help than I can possibly provide. It's simple. Just take a long, hard and honest look at your self. I know-reported for harassment. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8068 Registered: May-04 | Wiley - I know I promised to ignore you but you've endeavored to make that impossible. Wiley, the forum is about audio and is not about my personality traits. If you dislike those traits, avoid them. Do not come running head long into the breach. You have control over this, Wiley, and it is your decision how this will be resolved. Think for once instead of reflexively regurgitating your bile. I suggest this ends right now. Your choice. |
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Bronze Member Username: MofoknowsPost Number: 59 Registered: Mar-06 | "...reflexively regurgitating your bile." Nice imagery. I like it. "You have control over this, Wiley, and it is your decision how this will be resolved." For once, I am inclined to agree with you. Thank you, thank you very much. Now let's move on. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4058 Registered: Dec-03 | Take an SPL meter and switch it on in a nice location at the original performance. Then take it home and switch it on in your preferred location. Then adjust the volume until the meter records the same SPL as before. That is "reference level". You can do it by ear, but it is not as reliable. The meter is not distracted by the cat, does not know about a tough day at the office, and does not measure sound quality; only quantity. If the system sounds like the original, in quality, at reference level, then it is a good system. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 443 Registered: Jul-05 | I understand that reference level means a variety of things. In HT speak, when someone says 3 db below reference, they peg the reference at 85 DB. I have no opinion or care as to whether this is meaningful or not. Its just the language thats passed back and forth as far as HT and speakers every day. 85 db. |
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New member Username: Beastie1Frisco, TX United States Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Ah, same ole Jan and Nuck crap, different thread. Wiley you are not alone here. Others see how you are being attacked by Jan and Nuck and yes some of us see what is happening to you. I think I am finished with this forum as you have to read 80% of rubbish from Jan and Nuck to get 20% of actually relative feedback to an actual post. So let's just recap this shall we? 1. Wiley enters thread in attempt to share information with the OP. 2. Nuck enters on time as always, hijacks the thread and posts something totally off topic taking a jab at Wiley to pick the fight. "Something you read, Wiley?" 3. Jan enters thread to make offer a very geeky answer but fails to strike accord with the forum and answer the applicable question about how "Reference level" relates to HT. 4. Nuck - here comes good ole Nuck on time again to make another jab. "What is that Wiley, how to ask a question? You might try." 5. John A. enters the thread to offer a different perspective on how the actual wording of "Reference level" applies to the subject. "Isn't "Reference level" the sound pressure level experienced at the performance ...?" 6. Jan retorts and attempts to belittle John A "I think your suggestion still leaves much to be desired, John." 7. The Mortal One enters (thankfully) and offers an actual real world explanation of how the term applies to HT and everyone is enlightened. 8. Jan comes in to take another jab at Wiley. "Plain language escapes plain thinkers. Don't start, Wiley." 9. Wiley attempts to defend himself. "Hey man, I'm chillin' like Nuck suggested. You should do the same. Merely trying to figure out how helpful you are to us all." 10. Jan reports Wiley to the admin in attempt to get rid of him. "Harrassment has been reported to the administrator." I am sick of having to waste valuable minutes of my life in effort to learn from many of you about your vast knowledge about HT by having to read such egotistically motivated attacks in the majority of the threads on the forum my Jan and Nuck. This could be such a nice community but it will never be with these two left to run amuck on everyone's thread acting as Internet HT overlords. Take care all, |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 472 Registered: Nov-05 | How many valuable minutes did waste typing out that crap Parker? You know nothing about the people here nor do you understand their humour. Good riddance! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1919 Registered: Dec-04 | Yep, Parker, just another case of 'Nuck Amok'. However did you see the spillover from 'Wattage Outdated'? No? Buh bye. I'm gonna stand away from this furball as well(I hope Parker does, as he says), and re-evaluate my whole value to the community here. I have stated my expectations of the forum many times, recognized my limitations, and put forth my contributions unabashadly. Every so often it goes to Keif, and I do not seem to help much. I'll just e-mail for a couple of weeks till the dust clears. On the upside, Parker figgurs me and Jan are in Cahoots(poor fool). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8074 Registered: May-04 | How foolish that is! I'm in Dallas and you're in Ontario. Neither of us are in Cahoots! Which is in Mew Mexico, by the way. Or, Arizona. Or, Utah. If I wasn't in such a benevolent mood lately, this would have been my reply to Parker's post. "I believe my life will forever have a tiny, (very, very, very tiny - microscopic actually) hole for having never known someone who didn't care for me in the first place. Parker, contact Wiley, he has an aluminum foil hat he'll share with you. You poor down trodden soul, you. Life is tough; isn't it, Parker? Wasting time trying to learn something. However, that's a very astute perception of how the forum works for only five previous posts. Where were those five by the way? I must have missed them. Damn, and I had something geeky to contribute. Never the mind! Since you haven't been around for more than ... what, three days? ... you must have missed my suggestion that anyone who doesn't care for my posts should not read them. My name is always on the front of the post. So please, Parker, should you decide you lied about leaving, and we'll all be waiting to find out, look before you read. Learning is a dangerous activity. Otherwise, if you would, Parker, stay in touch. Let us know what forum you'll move to so we can come over and hope to annoy you there too." However, that just doesn't sound right with the current tenor on the forum. How about, "Parker, sorry to hear you'll be leaving. We were just about to have some fun. Your friend, Geeky." |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8075 Registered: May-04 | Edster - Do you have your answer or shall this thread continue on? |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 23 Registered: Nov-04 | Marcy Marc, you are right and so, so wrong. More words from people who are smarter than me. Theory The purpose of calibration is to adjust the overall electro-acoustic system gain so that 0dBVU of electrical signal level equals a certain acoustic level at the listening position. Since most recording media is now digital, the reference electrical signal level is usually --20dBFS with 20dB of headroom. The reference SPL level however can vary based on the delivery media and speaker type. The common calibration levels are listed below Stated in the following order L C R LS RS SUB* Movie Theatrical release - 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB/ 82dB/ 82dB/ 85dB Movie DVD release - 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB Broadcast - 85dBC or 78dB/ 78dB/ 78dB/ 78dB/ 78dB/ 78dB Music( Stereo) - 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB Music ( 5.1) - 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB/ 85dB All test signals are recorded at --20dBFS including the 1 kHz sine wave tone. The sine wave tone is used to set the electrical output level throughout the signal path, right up to the point you get to the speakers. While the various pink noise signals are used for acoustic measurements and calibration. The following procedure assumes you are calibrating the system to 85dBC SPL. If you are calibrating to TV, etc. substitute the appropriate level from the above chart. Given my previous post. The 85dB is derived from the fact that 105dB is the "Reference Level" and the tones used to calibrate are set at -20dBFS for home use. So we can say the "Reference Level" for the professionals in the Movie game is at 105dB and those with low end home theatre systems are only able to calibrate to 85dB. We have to give the pros some reason to exist, don't we? So the consumer uses 85dB, because our little ears and stereos cannot take too much volume and the pro's crank it till their ears bleed! Rock Hard!! That's my two bits for this one. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 24 Registered: Nov-04 | Damn, with all this mud slinging all my work will be missed. DAMN YOU CRUEL WORLD! I am going to kill myself now. I have no reason to live. Bye |
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Silver Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 112 Registered: May-05 | What if a reviewer likes to critique speakers at a particular volume, one that is reasonably loud, yet not offensively so...for all the speakers he tests? If this level was around 90dB, would this not be a level that we could realistically call his reference level? O.T. for a sec, Nuck I appreciate your posts, do not re-evaluate for too long ;) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8080 Registered: May-04 | Frosty - Please refer to the first and last sentences of my first post in this thread. Yes, without any further explanation of what reference level is being used, "the term "reference level" has no meaning. TMO - There's no point in deciding to kill yourself. Stick around, sooner or later someone will tell you they wish you were dead. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3753 Registered: Mar-05 | Hmmmm, I ask a very simple question and WWIII breaks out around here...LOL! At the very least an Ecoustics thread like this can't help but hone one's skim-reading skills. Makes me glad I bought a mouse with a scroll-wheel too. If that sounds like complaining it's not, I honestly get a kick out of the periodical verbal strafing...this place is like machine gun alley, hee hee! Anyways, aside from the strafing, thank you for the on-topic replies: Dale, Jan, Marc, TMO, John A. and even Nuck! To answer your question Jan, yes I guess I kind of do have an answer: that in absolute terms "reference level" doesn't really exist in any concrete or universally applicable way but in practice a lot of people esp. non-professionals (which would certainly include yours truly) seem to go by 85db, right or wrong. Which is fine by me, the only time I ever go above 90db is when I want to test the outer limits of my gear and eardrums. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 25 Registered: Nov-04 | Now have we established anything yet? I found out that "reference level" does have an actual meaning and not some useless point in an otherwise useless review in a magazine that I will not buy! Damn this jealousy! If no one tells you what "reference level" is, is it really a reference point? Re-established the fact that forum's can go down hill quick. |
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Silver Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 113 Registered: May-05 | "Re-established the fact that forum's can go down hill quick" It's still no reason to take a bath with a toaster. Chicks, cars, and the third world war...that's what you've gotta focus on. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8082 Registered: May-04 | TMO - I hope you don't misinterpret my last post. When I said someone would wish you dead, I was only speaking from my personal experience. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4060 Registered: Dec-03 | The Mortal One;- "Find the source." It is also quoted in THX-Certification: What It Means and How to Use It in "Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity:" That does not cite the original source, either. We are in "Home Audio > Speakers". I still offer my definition of "Reference level" in that context. If we were in "Home Theater" then I agree there is no reference. I have been to movie theaters and the SPL is different in each one. A philosophical comment. We can ask "What is meant by 'reference level'?" and there can be an answer. In contrast, "What exactly IS reference level?" has no meaning, and no answer. Not unless it is a way of asking "What has been chosen as 'reference level' in this particular case?" Is that uphill, even just a bit? Glad you changed your mind, BTW. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1925 Registered: Dec-04 | April fools! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1926 Registered: Dec-04 | Why not use 1W/1M as the reference level of a speaker, for consistancy? The graphs and charts are there already. Then increase the Watt/ 1M till something blows up? The 2nd part is Nuck reference,if you will. Then plug that Wattage value, squared, into the Price/quality/longevity theorum currently under development. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4062 Registered: Dec-03 | Surely "level" would be in units W/m-2? "Reference level" could then be the value recorded from the top of a pile of encyclopaedias. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4064 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry, make those units either W m-2 or W/m2 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8086 Registered: May-04 | "April fools!" You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Well, ... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1930 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, you knew I wouldn't shut up that easily. Loud mouthed Schnook.  |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4067 Registered: Dec-03 | "It all depends on what you mean by 'IS'". What's that Nuck, someone doing Tai Chi...? |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 26 Registered: Nov-04 | Jan you got Dale M. Wiley kicked out! Know what Mofoknows? How many will die before you are satisfied Jan, HOW MANY! Let the killing stop! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8098 Registered: May-04 | TMO - Not knowing whether your comments are with a tongue planted in the side of your cheek, let me answer you this way. I hate to sound like a well known politician, but, no, I did not get anyone removed from the forum. Whoever the administrator removes has managed to break enough of the forum rules to get themself removed. When you register as a member of the forum, you accept certain rules of decorum. If you consistently violate those rules, the adminsitrator is within his rights to remove you from the forum. What steps are taken before banishment is not anything I've encountered. If anyone feels like reporting any individual to the administrator for perceived violations, the thread can be started on a different section of the forum. In this case I reported a member who had already been banned back in the fall of last year and who had chosen to return. Once he did he resumed the same activity which got him banned intially. So,TMO, who got whom "kill't"? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8101 Registered: May-04 | I would also add I find it disturbing that someone would throw away a second chance. Obviously, I see the entire Wiley affair differently than how I would guess the rest of the forum member's will. And, my perception of the issues between Wiley and myself are, at this point, of no interest to anyone else. I think it deeply regrettable that Wiley chose the course he pursued. None of his posts in response to me were anything other than libel. Even when I asked for facts to back up an audio point, he chose instead to make personal comments only. I have no problem with give and take and understand the debate can get somewhat heated at times. However, my impression of Wiley, and those who formed the group who were banned last fall, are that he, and they, most likely have some problems which an audio forum cannot address. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8102 Registered: May-04 | I'm sorry to take up anyone's time with this matter. I would hope the issue is closed and we can get back to discussing audio. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 474 Registered: Nov-05 | Can you just give us reminder - what is "audio" again? |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 27 Registered: Nov-04 | Yes Jan my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek. Like it is most of the time. And yes I know it was not your call to have him kicked out. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8103 Registered: May-04 | Rantz - Audio is hi-fi! Though many on this forum are far too young to remember when that was the prevailing terminology and goal. Audio is enjoyable and encompasses everything that goes with the experience from DVD players to stylus pressure guages and even "magic dots". While audio is seldom something a group of people will agree about, it is what has (supposedly) drawn us together on this forum. We are here to discuss and, hopefully, learn a bit more what goes in making "audio" enjoyable. Audio is one (my current favorite), two, three, four, or more channels and, I must say for myself, audio, regrettably, includes home theater. You know I hope that helps; right, Rantz? |
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New member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Mar-06 | "audio, regrettably, includes home theater." |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8105 Registered: May-04 | TMO - I wanted to make sure we were not experiencing a "South Park" moment of realization at having killed "Kenny". I shall make note of your predilection towards humor and shall, from this point forward, assume all of your replies to be a joke unless otherwise noted. Ciao. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4072 Registered: Dec-03 | "audio, regrettably, includes home theater." These new-fangled talkies have really messed things up. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 475 Registered: Nov-05 | So, it's a sound thang. Now I remember. Okay thanks Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1960 Registered: Dec-04 | Stay with the tour, folks. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 28 Registered: Nov-04 | There is a tour? Damn. Who's the guide? Now I will have a saying when anybody gets banned from the forum. "Who killed Kenny?!" I remember a time when the "reference level" for audio was only two channel vinyl. CD's were distained and car audio was only for weed smoking head bangers! I want those days back! Iron Maiden rules! A child of the eighties I was! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1966 Registered: Dec-04 | TMO, The 80's called....They want the mullett back. And the 'Ratt'tape as well. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 477 Registered: Nov-05 | It's good to see some youngsters on the forum TMO :-) |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1967 Registered: Dec-04 | Youngster, TMO, let that one sink in. Next thing you know, you will be 'kid' or 'tiger' or something. Good luck, 'young buck'. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8109 Registered: May-04 | Yo! Chipper! How 'bout getting the old pharts some BenGay? We been too long liftin' them tube amps. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 878 Registered: May-05 | Hey, did I get banned in my absence? TMO, welcome aboard, how do you like your humor served, I prefer mine chilled. Audio, we don't need no stinkin' audio. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 1970 Registered: Dec-04 | TMO, the subject matter is usually much more serious here, just a loose thread. Mondays are serious, as you have seen. Now back to business people. How do I spell Plbbbthccch!!! ? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 1971 Registered: Dec-04 | Did a Google search but nothing. When someone says "these speakers sound really good at reference levels"--- I didn't think those speakers sounded good at reference levels, meself. Go figgur. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8112 Registered: May-04 | "How do I spell Plbbbthccch!!! ? In French or English? |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 165 Registered: Nov-05 | Isnt reference level the point right before the wife says its too loud? Nuck, you forgot one explanation point, otherwise correct! |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 167 Registered: Nov-05 | just tryin to get the posts numbers up. didnt mean to kill the thread! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8122 Registered: May-04 | Then, sir, you should have put one word per post. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 29 Registered: Nov-04 | Thank you boys, I have enjoyed the indoctrination! It is fun, and I will stick around. Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 168 Registered: Nov-05 | Im |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 169 Registered: Nov-05 | not |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 170 Registered: Nov-05 | that |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 171 Registered: Nov-05 | smart! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8127 Registered: May-04 | N |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8128 Registered: May-04 | O |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8129 Registered: May-04 | T |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8130 Registered: May-04 | Y |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8132 Registered: May-04 | E |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8133 Registered: May-04 | T |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8134 Registered: May-04 | ! |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 173 Registered: Nov-05 | Its a learning curve I suppose! But I catch on quick. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 847 Registered: Dec-03 | time to turn off e-mail notification again |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 881 Registered: May-05 | Smart move, Tim. Am I going to have a good week this week? Supposedly, I am getting the cosmetically revised Emmas for a listen. Yeah, Emma, got her groove fixed, so I'm about to hear, is that correct, Tim? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 848 Registered: Dec-03 | You are correct sir. Should be tomorrow. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 487 Registered: Nov-05 | "Supposedly, I am getting the cosmetically revised Emmas for a listen." Cone implants Tim? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 885 Registered: May-05 | You betcha MR, The bigger the cones, the better the need for a well-focused driver, I'm told anyway. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 491 Registered: Nov-05 | Yes, I understand: the bigger the cones, the greater difficulty there is keeping one's eyes on the road (well focused driver). And one's hands on the wheel. LOL! |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 850 Registered: Dec-03 | You guys realize no one other than the participants (and few of those) will ever read this thread. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 493 Registered: Nov-05 | Well, I should hope not, Tim! :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8140 Registered: May-04 | Actually the energy required to send these messages through the internet will never cease to exist. At this moment it is winging its way into outer space. Somewhere, sometime, in a galaxy far, far away someone will flip over from a rerun of Green Acres to read this thread. To them I say, Howdy doody! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4083 Registered: Dec-03 | Yep. Welcome, aliens! We're on the third one out from the Sun, as we call our star, somewhere in Andromeda. You can see from the news media how far we've got in 4.5 billion years. Any tips with global problems greatly appreciated. Wonder if, by any chance, we're related...? RSVP. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 1980 Registered: Dec-04 | They stopped by a while ago, seeking intelligent life. They looked at our planet and our social abilities...and left. But do not worry, as soon as we render ourselves extinct, the aliens will be back to plant a nice garden. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 1981 Registered: Dec-04 | That day will become 'reference day'. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8145 Registered: May-04 | We could possibly give a message to the bleeder and ask him to deliver it next time he speaks to them. Nuck - Aren't you forgetting about the apes taking over the planet? And the robots? And the gentically mutated beings exposed to gamma rays? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 851 Registered: Dec-03 | Dave, You've got boxes. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4088 Registered: Dec-03 | "That day will become 'reference day'" Love it. Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum will surely return. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 1985 Registered: Dec-04 | John, actually that becomes co-dependants day day. Taxes and all. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 1986 Registered: Dec-04 | I think Tim was right, who would read...this..........drivle. Never mind. |
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