I have an old stereo receiver, Kenwood KLH127 w/ no sub out. I looking to hook up 4 Polk Monitor 50's. I like the clarity of the speakers, the bi amp feature and I have space issues. The only problem is not much bass. I'm going to use them with my yamaha surround amp as surround but also want to bi amp them to my kenwood using the same powered sub. (Polk Psw120)I figured on using the sub out only on the Yamaha and hooking the sub up to the kenwood using the speaker level imputs. Since I have no sub out on the kenwood I'd like to know if I can double wire the speakers from the kenwood to the sub prior to hooking up the speakers? Will the built in sub crossover work if I double wire? I know some people will probably say just use the yamaha for music as well as movies but the yamaha sounds awful for music and I like the old fashioned stereo sound w/equalization for music rather than using 5.1 and DSP's which is mostly reverb. Any answers/advice would be appreciated.
That Kenwood will not have enough power to do anything for the sub.
The sub has line inputs (filtered), so you can hook it up to the left/right pre-outs of the Kenwood, or the left/right pre-outs of the Yamaha. In this config you have to set the high pass of the sub so it doesn't get the full signal (80 Hz).
Whatever you do, don't run speaker wire from either amp to the sub.
Daniel - I think you have some very misconceived ideas regarding "bi-amp" and "pre out". Bi-amp does not mean running two amplifiers on the same driver/speaker. To correctly bi-amp is to use a separate amplifier for two sections of a speaker system. One amplifier would be used for the low frequencies - the woofer, while another amplifier would be used to drive the upper frequencies - the tweeter. Crossovers are (typically) placed before the amplifiers and there are no common paths between the two amplifiers.
Connecting your (one) amplifier to the Monitor 50's and using the powered subwoofer's amplifier for the low frequencies is, in essence, bi-amping.
What you are suggesting, if I read your post correctly, is not bi-amping. It is running two amplifiers in opposition to one another. You will have serious problems with the way this system will operate. The crossover in the sub will not allow this to easily be performed and, as I indicated in my post on another section of the forum, you are risking damage to one or both amplifiers and the crossover for the sub. This doesn't even touch on the way the crossover in the sub would react to your proposed connection. That portion of the equation is equally poorly thought out.
You cannot run speaker level connections from a pre amp output and hope to get decent, or more likely any, sound. Pre amp outputs are line level only. They operate in the one to two volt output range. Not enough to drive your speakers. Power amplifiers operate in the ten's and twenty's volt range which is accomplished after the pre amp's signal has been adequately stepped up in wattage. (For all intents and purposes, a pre amp has no "watts".) Additionally, the output impedance is not matched to the load of a loudspeaker in order to adequately drive any pair of speakers from the pre amp outputs.
You apparently either haven't thought this connection through entirely or you haven't thought to post how you intend to run all four Polk Monitor 50's between the two amplifiers. How do you intend to make the connection to the Polks so they will not be hooked to both amplifiers at the same time?
Part of your post seems to indicate your preference for two channel reproduction without DSP processing when listening to music. Are you unaware you can turn off the additional channels and the DSP crud when listening to a stereo CD?
I would suggest you make a decision as to which is most important to your listening pleasure. Stereo music or DSP movies. Make the appropriate connection to whichever amplifier suits those needs, live with the limitations of the other and forgo the jerry-rigging of these two amplifiers lest you end up with no amplifiers working and the smell of burning semi-conductors filling your small space.
Thanks for the info. Seriously. I'm not trying to pound anyone into telling me I'm right. I,m also not obtuse to your information. I appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions and adressing my issue. However, and I might be that dense but I still don't fully understand how I would damage the system if I were to hook up the speakers to both amps bypassing the sub w/the Kenwood.
Let's forget pre amp. I don't know much about it. If I mentioned it before I meant the actual amp output I didn't even think I could separate power from pre amp with my receivers. (I've been playing guitar and using amplification for years and still don't fully understand the concept of pre amp and line levels vs power amps and impedence) If I came off like I knew a-lot about the subject I apologize. I did do some research about bi amping prior to posting my situation but did not realize that bi amping is using two amps for different frequencies. Thank you for clarifing that.
After I received your last post I researched bi amping even more to try and find out about the binding posts on the the speakers. I couldn't find the info I was looking for. Question- Are the separate +/- binding posts on bi ampable spekers identical as far as frequency? i.e. does one set handle low and one set handle high? (I checked the monitor 50 manual .PDF but no info)Now here's where you'll probably think by replying to this you're beating a dead horse.
If the separate posts are identical, why can't I hook up both amps to the speakers? You asked how I would hook them up and my answer is hook the a channel l/r/of the Yamaha to the polks l/r (using one set of binding posts of the speakers), hook the surround rear l/r to the other set of polks. Hook the Kenwood to the second set of binding posts a channel l/r/ and the b channel l/r to the second set of posts on the rears that have been hooked up to the Yamaha as rear surrounds. Also hooking up the Yamaha to the sub either speaker level imputs or lfe cable. When watching movies I would either unplug the Kenwood or turn off the speakers and when listening to music vise versa. I discussed this w/ someone who is knowledgable w/ electricity and he didn't know how it would affect the system. Is the fact that even though the speakers are still hooked up to the other amp even w/no power to the amp make the hookup dangerous? Is it that that the speakers' 2 separate binding posts are connected and current may flow to the dormant amp? Or will something inherent in the the bi amping feature of the speakers make the hookup weak or inaudible? Or is it a a matter of crossovers? Like I said I still don't fully understand that if there is no power how can it be dangerous?
Also if what I suggested is still unattainable I'm reluctantly willing to use only the Yamaha for everything. I'd use the Polks as a/b stereo speakers and use two satellites for rear surround. I have tried the amp w/ out dsp's but still sounds flat to me. With that said, are there still descent graphic equalizers available to expand the sound? I could hook one up to the Yamaha through the tape/monitor imput. Bass and Treble knobs to me just don't do it. I still listen to cassettes on occasion and I need more flexibility. Thanks for you help and attention to my dilemma.
Let's start with the Polks. I don't know whether the dual binding posts on your speakers make the speakers capable of being bi-wired or bi-amped. These are two different concepts and cannot always be mixed together in one speaker. If the speakers are only capable of being bi-wired, you will have two amplifiers in opposition to one another. The chances you will sooner or later blow one or both up are rather high. If the speakers can be bi-amped, connecting one amplifier to each set of binding posts will only drive one section of the speaker when that amp is in use. You will be missing half the speaker's output no matter which amp you are using.
It is a matter of the two amps being in opposition that is the problem. Even with one amplifier powered down, the current from the working amplifier will still flow to the output terminals of that amplifier. This will present a load to the working amplifier which is powering the speakers. While neither amp is likely to be severly harmed by this arrangement, both amps will be unhappy that you are trying to drive the circuitry of one amp with the other and the sound is probably going to suffer. That's the best case scenario. Depending on the output connections in the non-working amplifier, you will probably blow out some resistors and/or diodes used as protection devices. If the amplifier is capacitor coupled, you can kiss that cap good bye with this connection scheme. That either puts at least one amplifier in the service department or permanently solves your problem of how to hook up two amplifiers.
Finally, at the sub you will have to choose which crossover frequency you wish to use. When you take the signal from the LFE outputs, you are letting the receiver/processor do the work and the signal will begin to roll off at 80Hz (or wherever you set the crossover). For this type of LFE connection the sub's crossover should be advanced to its highest frequency. This will allow the LFE to do the crossover work and not have the sub's internal crossover also affect the roll off at a lower frequency. When switching to the stereo/speaker level connection you will have to rely on the sub's crossover to do the work. If it is set at, say, 150Hz for the LFE connection, the sub will be brought into the stereo system at too high a frequency and the sound will suffer. This would require resetting the sub's crossover control back and forth each time you switch between amplifiers. The same problems arise at the subwoofer crossover as I discussed above with the main speakers and one working amplifier.
All this plus the all too likely opportunity to turn your amplifiers into roman candles would keep me from attempting this connection. As I said, I would either make a decision which system I wanted to use or I would buy an amplifier which does both video and music properly. I would not attempt the connection you have proposed.
Jan, My wife's Dutch and wants to know if you are because you have a Dutch name (and you're quick to chew people out.) ( It's a Dutch thing and after 11 years I still don't get it) I think I'll go w/ the Yamaha and look into eq's. Ebay if I can't find a newer one. Can you suggest some small satellites I can use as rear surrounds? I have some cheesy KLH's but need something to match the Polks. Thanks again.
No, my name is Northern Italian. And in the mind of an Italian I am not "chewing anyone out". I am merely engaging in a discussion about which you will come to see my point of view. Italians discuss things differently than the rest of the world. There are no hard feelings after the discussion is resolved and we move on to the next topic that you require me to clarify.
Polk makes the R15 which Fry's sells for about $40 each. It will match the Polks as a surround speaker. If you require a small speaker with better quality, but not that close in matching the Polks you presently own, I would suggest NSM speakers. The 5 is a very good value in my opinion.
Further, with Jan responding with an Italian flair, you really cannot imagine all that typing going on, while flailing, pointing and gesturing at the same time.
Jan, I'm going with the yamaha bi amped w/ the kenwood. (truly bi amped)I'm gonna nix the EQ for now. If I need it later I'll add it. The Yamaha is old enough to add one to the tape monitor.
I looked up the R15's, they got great reviews but I'm going to use the KLH's as rear surrounds for now. Once again if they sound like crap, I'll add the R15's. It's the space issue again. The KLH's are tiny and I have to put them on top of the 50's. (My wife has to put her friggin' Knick-Knacks on top of my speakers.)(it's a compromise)
Question- How should I hook up the 50's to the sub? speaker level or LFE cable? I've heard two different opinions and would appreciate a third as tie breaker.
Thanks again from one ginny to another (check my last name, Napolitan/Sicilian)
P.s. How do you get good Italian food in Texas? I lived in Arizona and for the most part it was awful. I don't even want to mention the pizza. After moving there from New York I needed couch time.
P.P.s Hey Nuck, what the hell do you know aboot (yeah, aboot) hand gestures, eh? And what's with the Curling? Finally a sport that makes want to watch the Lifetime channel. ( If you don't get that channel in the Great White North it's women's television)Seriously though, I actually got hooked on the ice bowling during the olympics. I'd like to try it but would probably fall on my (the message board won't let me say it.) I think I'd get the weird screaming down pretty quickly. Long live Bob and Doug (is it macKenzie or McKenzie?)and Alex Trebek!
I've been trying to wrap my mind around what you want to do from the thread's start... it all doesn't add up for me.
Are you trying to get the sub integrated with the 4 speakers or are you trying to bi-amp the Polks with the Kenwood and the sub's amp, and not use the sub?
The Polks aren't too hard to drive, are you presently running them just off the Kenwood and there's not enough juice to get them going?
I will outline what I would do provided the Kenwood has pre-outs for the front left/right and surround left/right.
Connect the Polks directly from the Kenwood. Connect 2 interconnects from the front left/right pre-outs of the Kenwood to the line level inputs of the subwoofer, set the sub's crossover to 80 Hz. Connect 2 interconnects from the Kenwood to the Yamaha from the surround left/right pre-outs. Wire the KLHs to the Yamaha amp.
I'm going to hook the Yamaha to the Kenwood and bi amp them to the Montor 50's. Then use the sub out from the Yamaha to the sub. I'm then gonna use two small satellite speakers as rear surrounds.
Try both the LFE and line level connection. The LFE connection provides on the fly adjustment from your remote if you are someone who likes to adjust levels for each disc. However, the adjustments on most LFE's for the hi/low pass filter are usually in 10Hz increments and can be too broad for some speakers. I prefer the speaker level connections in those cases due to the finer adjustments that can be dialed into the crossover. This removes the on the fly adjustemts but can result in better sound. Listen to both and decide for yourself. You might also want to try running your front speakers full range and merely bringing in the sub as a supplement to the lowest octaves.
Texas is not the place to find Italian food. So, I make my own. There is one decent Italian deli in Dallas where I can get San Marzano tomatoes, real Italian meats and cheeses and most other items I need. I grew up in a small town that was across the river from St. Louis and The Hill. My hometown was 85% Italian when I was a kid, so I was used to a plate of pasta for $3 that would get you through the day. When I got to Dallas I found a 3 oz. portion of spaghetti with bad marinara getting $11. In that environment you either make your own or eat Tex-Mex.
Jan, I'll give them both a try. I'm ordering everything tomorrrow, speakers, cables, Plasma T.V. so I'm gonna be busy hooking up, installing, hanging the T.V. and tweaking evrything for awhile. I'll let you know how it turned out.
I didn't know there were large Italian communities in that part of the country. The only Italian I heard of from St. Louis is Yogi Berra. Not to gloat but I have a deli in walking distance. Sausage rings made to order. Imported everything. Also we have a couple of really good pastry shops. And countless family owned pizzerias. My wife grows tomatoes and basil and you really notice the difference in the red gravy. Poughkeepsie has a big Italian community and a-lot of good restaurants. Most of them make their own pasta so the food is pretty good. A-lot of Italians moved up here from the N.Y.C. We're only about an hour and a half north which is also a bonus.
St. Louis, at least during the first half of the 20th c/ was a melting pot of French, Italian, some Irish and many German immigrants, mostly. As a major port city along the Mississippi River, there was more than enough "dumb diego" work for everyone and the city pulled people up from the New Orleans basin and down from Chicago. St. Louis and Kansas City were the first locations where Chicago style jazz musicans could find extra work in the late 1920's. Of, course, neither city had the pull of New York, however.
Illinois had, and still does have, a quite different feel and attitude toward life and people than Missouri so many immigrants settled in Illinois and there are communities which became suburbs of St. Louis though they were across the river. How my family came from Susa in Piemonte, at the foot of the Alps, to the MidWest USofA is an interesting story and involves large sums of money literally going down the toilet. There was work in the area my family settled in and, though different than the Napa Valley area where they were headed, they became part of the Italian community that did the hard work and eventually built their small fortunes.
The upscale restaraunts in Dallas make fresh pasta, or more correctly have someone make it for them. Unfortunately, I cannot afford to eat at those restaraunts so I make my own. I have to be in the mood to be in the kitchen all day to make pastries. There is a fairly large Greek community here and that provides something akin to the food I knew as a kid. But nothing comes close to having the real thing close at hand.