Wharfedale Evo 40 vs. Opus 1 or 3 question
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 1 Registered: Mar-06 | I own a pair of Evo 40s and am pleased with the sound (Yamaha RXV2500 amp). I use an Opus Tri center channel because I read bad things about lobing with the Evo center and did not like the sound of the Diamond 9 CM center. The Opus Tri integrates well with the Evos, but now I have an opportunity to spend a few hundred more for a set of Opus 1s or 3s (2s not available). Is it worth it? I hate to go through the hassle of selling the Evos on e-bay if I don't have to. I have a good SVS sub, so I really don't need the lower end of the Opus 3, but it has more than lower end over the 1. Also, I cannot audition the Opus. Finally, I use the speakers mostly for HT, with some music thrown in. I find the Evos a tad warm on the upper end and midrange, and thought that the specialized midrange driver on the Opus might address this. Any opinions? |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 41 Registered: Aug-04 | First of all, how big is your HT/Music room? I own the Opus 2 (actually two pairs of them, one in my HT and one in my home office for a two channel system). I auditioned the Opus 3 for several hours. I have also had listening sessions with the Evo 30 and 40. The Opus series three inch dome midrange speaker is the same in all three of the Opus floorstanders. The tweeter in the Opus 1 is different from the the tweeter in the Opus 2 and 3 (which are the same in the 2 and 3). The Opus midrange is so very smooth with a nice touch of warmness, but it is much more detailed, dynamic and musical than the midrange in the Evo series. As is the upper bass. Also, the timbre or tonality of instruments sounds so wonderful in the Opus series. The Opus series is a major improvement over the Evo series. Don't get me wrong, 'cause I do like the Evo 30 and 40. If your room demensions are not large, then you would probably be better off with the Opus 1; taking into consideration that you have a nice subwoofer and that you use your system more for HT, than music. But if you have a large room, then, the Opus 3 would be your best bet. The Opus 3 need some space and room to breathe. They are big speakers, with big cabinets. With a high current....high power amp, the Opus 3 are amazing; they fill the room with a dynamic, musical, three demensional soundstage that seduces you. ( as do the Opus 2) I will also add that while the Opus 3 are fairly easy to drive and efficient, I would be cautious in trying to drive them with your Yamaha RXV2500 Receiver. It's likely that your RXV2500 could drive the Opus 3 with out a problem, but being that I am unfamiliar with it and unfamiliar with it's power source and driving abilities; I personally would be cautious. To get the best out of the Opus 3, I would go with a nice high current or higher powered amp, just to be sure. The Opus 1 are also nice speakers, but the bass is prominent and they are just a wee-bit less efficient than the 2 and 3. In a smaller room and if you don't need the extra bass, go with the Opus 1 or stay with the Evo 40 (which is probably would I would do...stay with the Evo 40) In a larger room and you would like the extra bass, go with the Opus 3. Well, I hope I've been of some help. |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 2 Registered: Mar-06 | Amazing feedback. Thank you so much. I guess you answered my question - while I like the Evo 40s, if there is a significant difference with the Opus line I will probably bite the bullet and go with 1s or 3s. I will let you know what I think. Thanks again! |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 42 Registered: Aug-04 | You're Welcome. I meant to say: The Opus 1 are also nice speakers, but the bass is LESS prominent and they are just a wee-bit less efficient than the 2 and 3. You'll have more bass with the Evo 40, rather than the Opus 1. Sorry about that. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 43 Registered: Aug-04 | I would still like to know th demensions of your room. That would go a long way to helping you determine what would be the best course of action. |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | The speakers are in my basement HT which is 12 by 34 feet. My seating position is about 11 feet from them with them in one of the narrow end of the room. The Evo 40s seem loud and efficient enough (though perhaps just barely) for HT use. |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | What concerned me, frankly, ia a post on these forums by Robert Anderson from April 11, 2004, in which he described the Opus 10s (which are the 1's I believe) as "RUTHLESSLY revealing of the source equipment" and described the sound from a Marantz receiver as "grainy, steely, cold, and fatiguing". I'm not ready to go to a high end amp due to dollar concerns, so if this is true with my Yammy I will have a problem. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 44 Registered: Aug-04 | Hmmmm....that is a rather long (depth)room, 34 ft. is a lot. But I don't think the Evo 40s are your problem as far as loudness and efficiency. If you feel they're barely loud enough, it's most likely your power source (your Receiver) that is short on power. Having said that, the Opus 3 would really breathe in that room. They would certainly fill the room up with sound, much more than the Evo 40 and do it loudly. Although, I don't agree with litening to audio or movies to loudly. I read Mr. Anderson's comments before I auditioned and bought my first pair of Opus 2. With all due respect to Mr. Anderson's comments, I will comment on what I believe are the shortcomings and weaknesses in the system he heard. First of all, as I'm sure you very well know, there are many elements or variables that can contribute to a system sounding badly.....as Mr. Anderson reported. Badly recorded source material, inferior components along the line, or bad, inferior power supplies or room acoustics; can all contribute to a fatiguing, harsh, distorted presentation. Is the mid-range of the Opus series revealing? Yes, to an extent. But if you stay away from bright sounding equipment, you will not have that problem. While it (the Opus dome midrange) is revealing of detail, it is also very smooth, musical, a little to the warm side and not harsh at all. After having auditioned and experimented with several different set ups with the Opus 2, I can only suspect that there was definately some problems in the chain of components, maybe source material or room acoustics, in order for them to sound that badly...as badly as he described. In speculation, I figure the Marantz receiver played a large role in causing much of the mess Mr. Anderson heard. No offense to any Marantz lovers, but the few Marantz receivers I have heard ( three of them) had horrible sound quality. Every Opus owner I have spoken to goes with components that are either closer to neutral, transparent or lean a little to the warm side. And they work well for them. Staying away from bright sounding or hyper-detailed equipment is a good rule of thumb, with the Opus series. As is staying away from inferior, poorly designed electronics. It takes some time, auditioning and experimenting to find the correct match of components. That goes with just about all gear and speakers out there. I can listen to AC/DC's Powerage or Highway To Hell albums, and then listen to some high quality recordings of Jazz, classical and so forth. The Opus 2 sound wonderful with just about anything. I find that my Opus 2 are not only detailed and musical, but that they can be forgiving of most badly recorded sources. Although, some recordings are simply so poor and shabby, that they sound horrible. The dome midrange will expose those horrific recordings. I have a very wide, eclectic.....diverse taste in music. I love and listen to many genras and styles. The Opus 2 simply continue to boogie along. If I were you, I would only buy the Opus 3 if I was commited to purchasing a better amp....some time in the near future. Or you can buy the Opus 3 and compare it with your Evo 40, in your room and using your Receiver. See what the difference is. See which ones suit your tastes the best. Then sell which ever one you decide not to keep. BTW, what finish is your Evo 40? |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Fantastic, NMT. You are truly the best. People like you make the Internet the resource it is. My Evos are Rosewood, which is a particularly nice color with the yellow Kevlar drivers. Makes you want to leave the grilles off. I will go look at some 3s and 1s tomorrow. If I can swing a good deal on a pair of 3's, I'll jump for it, otherwise I'll probably try out the 1s and do what you suggested - compare with the Evos and sell the pair I do not like. |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Well, I bought the Opus 3s this weekend. First thing, they are MONOLITHIC. I want to try to make it work with these monsters, if only to not have to move them again LOL. I watched Star Wars II last night with them, and then listened to some music- 6 different CDs of different genres, to make sure what I was hearing was not due to a poor recording. And... I was fatigued. Big time. I did not enjoy a single CD, nor the movie. First, the good- I found the sound to be crisp and precise. I heard details and nuances in the movie and the music I have never heard before. And the 3's worked perfectly with my Opus Tri Center (not surprising). But the sound was simply not enjoyable to me. I even went out and bought a new CD player, an Onkyo 390, and it made no difference. Now I am at a crossroads, which i hope you can help me with. I love my Yamaha receiver, so I'm not willing to give that up. Maybe I can use it as a preamp and get a different amp for the Opus 3s, and drive the other speakers with the Yammy. Or maybe I can try measuring the room acoustics and equalize some resonances out. Moving the Opus 3s I will alos try, but I don't have a lot of options with that. Maybe I can try a differnt wire set - am biwiring the 3s with Monster XP. Most likely, though, I will end up going back to the Evo 40s and sell the Opus 3s on e-Bay. It's a real shame, as they are truly impressive speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 830 Registered: Feb-05 | well, I wouldn't reccomend driving those speakers with a reciever, and that is what you did. most recievers simply won't have the power to drive big floorstanders to their full potential. can you try putting an actual amp in and seeing if that makes a difference? It could be night and day. Also, the CD player could be at fault. I don't have a ton of experience with onkyo CD players, but their recievers are not what I would call world class. On really revealing speakers they can come off as a tad bright and grainy. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 45 Registered: Aug-04 | I was afraid that would happen, Nick. Those receivers are simply incapable of driving speakers like Opus 2 and Opus 3 correctly, and that will cause all kinds of unpleasant, fatiguing sound. What CD Player do you have? I would also evaluate the room acoustics, even moreso because you are in a basement. Is there a carpet on the floor? Are there basement windows? Are these windows draped (heavy curtains are in order for any window in a music/HT room). Is there any metal or other glass objects in the room, which interact with the sound waves? How's the ceiling? What's it made off? Are there exposed cross beams, pipes and so forth? I can list a few different components that match very well with the Opus 2 and deliver smooth, non-fatiguing sound. Hope that helps. CD Players: Jolida J100 CDP Rega Jupitar Rega Apollo Arcam's CD Players Eastern Mininmax Tubed CDP (which allows you to change tubes ...ie; warmer, smoother tubes) BAT VK-D5 Cary 308T Pre Amps: Juicy Music Peach or Blueberry BAT VK-3i or VK-3ix Vincent SA-T1 Amps: Butler Audio TDB 2250 Odyssey Audio Stratos or Monoblocks Extreme Arcam amps There's more, but I'm running out of time. Be back later |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 46 Registered: Aug-04 | Another thing, are there exposed cement or cinder block walls? |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 835 Registered: Feb-05 | I believe he used an onkyo CD player. "But the sound was simply not enjoyable to me. I even went out and bought a new CD player, an Onkyo 390, and it made no difference. " |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 7 Registered: Mar-06 | Thank you both. NMT, you are very kind to try to help. I really do appreciate it and I continue to need your advice. The room is standard sheetrock over single stud walls, floating rubber over MDF subfloor under carpet with pad, and fabric (for now) ceiling. No windows to speak of. No wall hangings, some couchesand that's it. Some large heating/AC ducts sticking out near the sitting position but they are insulated. Nothing particularly hard or reflective Having read Dr. Toole's excellent white papers on Harman.com, I am conversant with room modes and setup, and I don't think there is a heck of a lot more I could do to the room to make it better. I even used the mode calculator and I was sitting near a first order length null previously. Anyway, I've done three things over the past two days which have helped: I moved the listening position about a foot forward to avoid the null I mentioned, I am playing music through the speakers nearly around the clock to break them in (different types, on random, at moderate volumes), and I used the automatic parametric EQ function of the receiver to set up the speakers. I understand you don't want to equalize like that - this was just to see what would happen, and I am definitely enjoying my speakers more now, although the sound is still a little too cold and clinical for my taste. I think what I will likely do is work with my setup as is, and then browse e-bay for the components you mentioned - when the price is right I will likely add them one at a time. To this end, if there are more reccomendations please post them. I did find a prior post of yours, NMT, in which you list the following amps in addition: Unison Research, Parasound Halo A21, Musical Design, Van Alstine and you mention some are better than others. If you have time, can you elaborate? Finally, I want to say that this has been an interesting but unpleasant and expensive learning experience for me, that others should heed. I would not have imagined that my new $1000 Yamaha amp could make any set of speakers sound bad, especially when much cheaper speakers sound "better". I thought I had done my homework, but boy was I wrong. In any case, thank you all for your help. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 838 Registered: Feb-05 | I would also throw in rotel components as well, they will offer great sound and won't cost you an arm and leg. also look on www.audiogon.com you will have better luck than on ebay, or at least I do. |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-06 | Wow. Rotel is much cheaper. Thanks, Gavin. NMT, any opinion? |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 9 Registered: Mar-06 | How about other Parasound amps (like the HCA 1200) - some on Audiogon at great prices right now... |
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New member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 10 Registered: Mar-06 | Also, how about Carver amps? NMT, you seem to be heading me toward tube products - in general I prefer solid state, even though I recognize the tubes are a little warmer and smoother. I don't need perfection - just pleasant listening. Thanks, Nick |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 47 Registered: Aug-04 | Have you tried setting your receiver to 'Natural Mode" ? From what I understand this mode is good for dealing with bright or harsh rooms. The reality of it all Nick, is that some equipment simply don't mate well together. I'm sure just about everyone here has gone through similar problems, at one time or another. That's not a knock on your receiver, and it doesn't diminsh your receiver in any way. Seems like that's a real nice Receiver. It's just a fact of this hobby. Combine that with the fact that most of these Receivers simply don't do a good job driving big speakers like the Opus 3, and there may lay the problems. Seperate power amps are likely to help the situation. You have to remember that the Opus 3 is a high quality speaker and it requires equally high quality electronics to make them sing. If the Opus 3 were made in the USA, they would without a doubt be a $5,000-$6,000 speaker. Rotel makes some real nice gear and from what I understand they mate well with the Opus. But be cautious of what models you consider. I would stay away from those classic line Parasound amps. The Halo A21 is a nice match with the Opus, but you will have to do something about your source. With the problems you're having I would consider one of the older Arcam models. You want a source that leans to the more polite, warm, musical side of things. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 48 Registered: Aug-04 | Nick, I tried to send you an e-mail. Let me know if you receive it. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 843 Registered: Feb-05 | I myself use rotel and have experience with it. They are properly neutral provided you don't get certain series of used gear. I forget the ones, but the newer rotel is better than the old. I would reccomend taking a look at a barely used model. They aren't very attractive (fins all over the outside) but are great for the price. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 845 Registered: Feb-05 | I would reccomend looking around however. NAD is also fine budget equipment as well. But, the older stuff doesn't hold up as well as the new equipment. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 49 Registered: Aug-04 | Nick, I'm not intentionally trying to lead to anything in particular. I am simply sharing with you the equipment that I have had first hand experience in matching with the Opus, or equipment that other Opus owners I know have had success with in matching with the Opus. I can't speak for gear that I have no experience with. And obviously I can't possibly have tried all gear....lol. I don't have THAT much time on my hands...LOL There are plenty of solidstate designs in my list, as well as tube designs. Some of them are hybrid designs. |
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Bronze Member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 11 Registered: Mar-06 | I had to remove the equalization - without it they are starting to sound really nice. Crisp, well-balanced, no longer fatiguing. Very detailed sound with excellent soundstage. I am experimenting with toeing them in - makes a very big difference. I think one of the big problems was that they simply were not broken in. Brand new speakers. I still only have maybe 20 hours of music on them now and can already tell a big difference. I'm sure glad I didn't throw the baby out with the bath water! |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 847 Registered: Feb-05 | some speakers can take up to 200 hours, or even longer to properly break in. keep that in mind. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 50 Registered: Aug-04 | I'm happy to see they are sounding better. They'll really start to sing some where between 50 and 100 hours. By the time you 200 hours, those babies will be sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet! I didn't realize you had so few hours on them. For some reason I thought you already had put a significant amount of hours on them. For the record, I still think the Opus will benefit greatly from a seperate amp. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 51 Registered: Aug-04 | How are they coming along, Nick? |
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Bronze Member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-06 | Sorry Tony. I was away for a week on vacation - just got back monday. They are no longer overly bright or fatiguing. But I am finally understanding some terms used on these forums - one is "revealing". I never before heard or appreciated the differences between CDs in terms of being well recorded. I knew that some CDs sounded better than others, but now there are some that sound superb(Clapton's live CD 'Unplugged', Donald Fagen's 'The Nightfly'), and others that sound absolutely awful. Unfortunately, the latter outnumber the former by 4:1. The other thing I discivered is that the Opus 3s are made to be biwired. Switching to single wiring, at least with the Yamaha receiver driving them, results in a nearly complete loss of imaging and a much flatter, forward soundstage. The difference is more uniformity, though - with biwiring I felt there were flat spots in the frequency response - for example the singer's voice would seem to be too soft in comparison to the instruments on some recordings. With single wire, this has gone away, though so has the pleasure of many recordings. Well, I am now a man on a mission. Thanks to Mastercard, I am now in debt a couple more grand but will soon be the proud owner of a Sunfire Cinema Grand x 5 amplifier, an Adcom DV89 DVD/CD player, and some Cobalt and Kimber Hero interconnects. They should be here by Thursday - I will let you know my impressions then. Cheers, and thanks for all your help, once again. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 53 Registered: Aug-04 | You're Welcome! I think you meant the Arcam DV89 DVD/CD Player ;) Well it sure looks like you bought yourself a powerhouse amp! From what I have heard, the Sunfire Cinema Grand packs more than enough power for the Opus 3! Although, I have never heard that amp, so I have no idea how it sounds. Did you buy it brand new? Or used? The Arcam DV89 has a real good reputation. This should really push your system to a new level. I think you'll find most of the issues you've encounter, will disappear with this new gear. |
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New member Username: AficionadozonePost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-06 | Hi Nick, Just sent you a pm. Thanks, Robert |
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Bronze Member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 13 Registered: Mar-06 | OK, the sound improved immensely with the Sunfire, but the real star of the show turned out to be the Arcam DIVA DV89 DVD player (pun intended). The sound, the picture, WOW. I can't get over it. Movies now sound spectacular, and CDs as good as I've heard on equipment costing less than $10,000. Now I'm experimenting with speaker cables and interconnects. For example, I'm hallucinating an improvement in sound with the Kimber Hero interconnects over high end Audioquest cables, and think that Monster XPHP speaker cable sounds clearer, brighter, and offers better imaging than Prosound 10 gage cable despite the fact that it looks to only be 14 gauge, at best. Fun stuff. Thanks for all your advice, guys! I now love my sound system (and my credit card company loves me!). BTW, Tony, sorry to see you are having to give away a pair of your Opus 2s. If I were in the market, I would snap these up pronto! Good luck. You may also want to try e-Bay... Nick |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 54 Registered: Aug-04 | Hi Nick. Good to see you're enjoying your system, now! I've heard a lot of good things about that Arcam DV89. Looks like they are all true. Yeah, I'm selling one of my two pairs of the Opus 2 (in Piano High Gloss Black). I bought the second pair for my home office (the other pair are in my HT room). I initially wanted the high gloss Rosewood for my office(since I have the gloss black in the HT room), but the gloss Rosewood was out of stock. Since I wanted to get a pair into my office quickly, I fugured I'd get the gloss Black and then when the gloss Rosewood comes back into stock, I would sell the Black and buy the Rosewood. But we're expecting our second child soon (third week of May) and the wife unexpectedly sprung a request on me, for a new crib and other furniture for the new babies room. As well a few other things. Initially, she wanted to go with our son's former crib and furniture. But she changed her mind several weeks ago. I hadn't figured a new crib and furniture into our budget. So I figuered since I was going to sell this pair of Opus 2, so I could get the Opus 2 in gloss Rosewood; I may as well sell them now and use the money towards the crib and furniture........and buy the Opus 2 in Rosewood gloss....when it finally becomes available. I assure you one thing, there will always be at least one pair of Opus 2 in this house !!!!  Women! Can't live with them.......can't trade 'em in for a nice amp! LOL! :D BTW Nick, what did you do with your Wharfedale Evolution 40? Still have them, or did you sell them? |
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Bronze Member Username: Dr_xNear Boston, MA Post Number: 14 Registered: Mar-06 | Congratulations, Tony! Enjoy your new baby!! At least you're responsible and live within a budget! I wish I did. I just said no more kids to my wife (I have 2 yunguns now). I want no more competition for toy money!! It's funny. One of my Opus surrounds is rosewood piano, the other just rosewood venner (like my Evos, which I'm planning to put on e-bay as soon as I get around to it). The piano finish rosewood is superb, and even though I think the rosewood veneer on the Evos is beautiful, it doesn't hold a candle to the piano rosewood finish. Then again, I think the black piano finish is much nicer than even the piano rosewood, so your opinion may vary... Anyway, I can't say enough good things about the Arcam DV89. I tried connecting it to the Yamaha using analog RCA interconnects (vs the coaxial digital connection) and WOW - the sound, especially the dialog, improved 100%, to the point that I now prefer 5.1 sound to the 7.1 setup the Yamaha allows. Foget prefer, I can't listen to the Yamaha anymore! It must be the D/A converters in the Arcam that are just that much better - goddam it. I really used to like my Yamaha receiver, when I was using inferior speakers. The only downside is that the volume dropped significantly with the analog connectors. So, I found myself a used Sunfire Signature Cinema Grand amp with 405 watts/ch X 5 on Audiogon that will be replacing the measly 200 watt/ch Sunfire I currently own. Woohoo, I'm on the upgrade warpath! What's next Krell? |
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