Ok, I'm about to upgrade my old Aiwa AV-D55 surround sound receiver. I'm looking for specific model recommendations. Sales guys at Circuit City and 6th Ave were useless. I would use it for TV and DVD movies. Rarely music. I have a 5.1 6 ohm Jamo shelf speaker setup with a powered sub woofer in a 15x12 room. My online research brought me to the Panasonic SA-HE100 and the PIONEER VSX-D811S. Any recommendations on these or your own vote for the best surround sound for the buck would be appreciated.
Tim S
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I can't comment on sound yet since I haven't settled in on a system, but FYI...
Consumer Reports rated Pana 100 better than Pioneer 811 - top of list in fact, esp regarding bang for buck. Pana 100 is only 5.1, but their 200 unit is 6.1 and about 70% more $ at list as I recall (nicer remote, cleaner look).
I have seen them each of these. The 200 is clean and nice, remote seems awkward. 811 remote is learning capable (not just universal like 200), and the 100 is just for pana products. Cost wise 100 is less than 811 is less than 200 as far as list is concerned, but at circuit city you might get a good deal on the 200 at about $400.
Yamaha and Kenwood have some pieces to consider - the RXV630 and the VR6060 both are 6.1. SOny has the DE985 but it is odd about the audio assignments for video and they aren't separate selection from the remote. The bad part about having small speakers is the need to have a Sub of the effects on movies, and the crossovers on Yanmaha and Kenwood are at 90 and 100Hz respectively, no adjustments. That is poor planning. I don't recall if the 811 is adjustable, but I think the pana's are and Sony definitely is.
Sony, Yamaha, and I think panasonic have OSD for set-up, 811 and kenwood do not.
If you are looking to go beyond the 5.1 setup, the pana 100 will not do. 811 can down mix 7.1 to 6.1/5.1. The 811 rear channel is single but there are two post sets - they are jumpered internally (I asked Pioneer 2Bsure).
In the end, I took back an 811 because of the remote control feel and it's need to do any set-ups, and lack of OSD but no "mimic" on the display for which speakers are active. 811 has that awkward door too, but since the remote is needed for real set-up it might not be bad. I have not been down to CC to look at the Pana 200 again but that seems to be a decent compromise except for the remote - if enough bucks are saved, a real learning remote can be had at Radio Shack!
I understand HK AVR 320 and up series are nice but haven't seen them yet.
Probably little help for you, but maybe there's some info here....
Anonymous
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Don't forget Onkyo SR600 and Denon 1803--each about $500 MSRP. I have 6 Ohm speakers too and those were the 2 receivers that I narrowed down to. I ended up selecting the Onkyo and I'm very happy with it.
Porcdoc
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Mike, I've got the Panasonic sahe 100 and its great. Paid $228 for it and it has 6.1 + digital coax or optical inputs also DTS. It was consumer report low cost amp of 2002.It puts out great bass!
Great info everybody. I'm getting close. All things seem to keep pointing to the Panasonic SAHE100. To be honest it just seems to cheap to be that good.
The problem with Consumer Reports is tied into your Circuit City problem. They'll only review crap that's available at places like that. If you eant a TRULY high-end piece of gear look at the Outlaw 1050 A/V receiver. You WILL NOT find anything at that price-point to compare. outlawaudio.com
Ok, I Just got home 3 hours ago with the Panasonic SA-HE100 and so far I'm not impressed. I have the sub woofer maxed out in the setup as well as the subwoofer itself and I'm getting what I feel is minimum bass. I'm Very disappointed... I think it's going back. Looks like the Onkyo TX-SR600 might get a try. Hey how important is it that the Onkyo TX-SR600 does not have Dolby Pro Logic only Dolby Pro Logic II?
Greg Lee
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Mike, Dolby ProLogic II generally includes a Prologic mode. But in any case, PLII is much better.
You don't necessarily get more bass by maxing the sub volume control -- you may well get less. Your lack of bass may be a setup/calibration problem. The calibration tone for the sub will sound much softer than the tones for the other speakers when it is in balance with them, since ears are less sensitive to low frequencies.
I've tried the subwoofer setting both ways. Considering how much better it was with my old Aiwa I can only think it's setup/calibration but dammed if I can find any more settings in the book or the receiver.
Are your main speaker setting on the PANASONIC set to large or small? If set to large you will not get anything to your sub. They must be set to small. If you return that thing I'm telling you...CHECK OUT THE 1050 FROM OUTLAW AUDIO!!!
Porcdoc
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Ok Eric, Whats the price on the 1050. P.S.I run my Panasonic sahe-100 with 3 large front speakers(old 3 ways) bullets and bombs etc, make the viewers dive for cover even when I warn them. I don't run a sub on mine. Why bother when the old technology (large 3/4 way speakers) sound better!?
I can't believe that this thread got to 11 posts without a single person mentioning either the:
Denon 1803, or, HK AVR225, or Kenwood 6070
These are two (first two specifically) of the best reviewed, best featured, BEST sounding, and quality built units you can buy for under $500.
Panasonic makes a great DVD player, a decent TV, but they're not considered in the top 5 of AV receiver manufacturers anywhere. As another poster mentioned, the Outlaw receiver would dice a Panasonic anyday.
Value doesn't mean cheap...and cheap doesn't mean value.
My comments on setting the receiver's speaker settings are intended for Mike. If the receiver is set to "small" speakers then the bass will be routed to the sub output and not the main speakers. Even if you use "large" speakers you still wanna set them to small. If the receiver is set to large then it DOES NOT feed the sub anything because you're telling it that your main speakers can handle all the bass. SET IT TO SMALL. As far as the Outlaw 1050 goes you obviously did't take a look at their website since it's IMPOSSIBLE to not know the price by looking at their product line.
Anonymous
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I was interested in the outlaw audio 1050, but I decided not to get it for the following reasons:
First, I wanted to buy something that I could hear at the store--whether it be Circuit City or a specialty audio retailer. Hearing is what counts. I know that you can return it if you're not happy with it. But it is easier to go to a local store and check it out.
Plus, the 1050 is 6.1, but it is a proprietary 6.1. It says it is compatible with DD EX, but what about DTS-ES? I wanted 6.1 discrete. It also does ProLogic, not ProLogic II.
I ended up with the Onkyo SR600 (as I said earlier about the 6 Ohm speakers) because it had the capability to decode all the 6.1 formats (DD EX, DTS 6.1 Matrix and 6.1 discrete), DTS:Neo (which I like better than ProLogic...but I still usually use "All Channel Stereo" mostly), a set of B speaker terminals for another room (a bonus), and the on screen display--it makes changing stuff very, very easy. I didn't need a turntable input either.
When I looked for a receiver, I made sure that it can first drive my speakers. Then check the sound. And finally check the features. For me, that brought me to Denon or Onkyo. Harmon Kardon was a little too expensive for me with the features that I wanted. Integra is good too, but a little more than $500 or less budget that I was on also.
So assuming that the Outlaw Audio sounds just as good, it came down to features.
Great info guys. I am work today and I can't help thinking I missed something on the Panasonic. As an example: When I play the water hole trembeling from Jurassic Park I hear almost no bass at all. There is just no way the sub woofer should be putting out so little.
This morning I double checked that all my speakers were set to small and they were. There is not much to the setup of the Panasonic so I can only assume it's just the way it is.
I'm thinking after a couple more tries on the Panasonic tonight I'll try the Onkyo SR600 because it was in my top three, Circuit City has them so I can exchange and Mr. Anonymous has 6 ohm speakers like I do and liked it. They also have Kenwood so the 6070 is also on my list...stay tuned
Definitely a good list. Somewhere in there you'll find what you're looking for. What's nice is that you now have the Panasonic experience under your belt so you'll know a little bit more what to look/listen for.
Here's a dumb question. Does it matter that my subwoofer is powered? I just read that the Subwoofer jack sends a preamplified signal to a subwoofer for amplification.
Ok, I thought so. I was thinking maybe I was amplifing and already amplified signal or something. I guess I'm just grabbing at straws on this Panasonic. :-(
On last longshot. My powered subwoofer has two RCA jacks. One says "Left, Mono"(White) and the other says "Right" (Red) With my Aiwa I only used the Subwoofer out to the Left Mono in jack and it worked great.
Should I try something different with the Panasonic? It still only has one subwoofer out jack.
line-level out for a sub from any receiver will be a mono RCA jack. If I had to choose which to hook that cable into on your sub I would also choose the left "mono" connection.
That should do it...but then again, I've never seen a sub's line in as a stereo pair.
Also preferrably, your sub should have some type of direct line-in. Some sub companies call it direct, some call it bypass. You want this so that the receiver will do the filtering of the signal below the specified frequency--some receivers allow you to change this frequency such as 80, 100, or 120 Hz. This also makes sure the signal does not get filtered twice (once by the receiver and once by the sub).
If the sub doesn't have a bypass for the crossover, then you'll just have to turn the crossover as high a possible for the least effect on the signal.
Typically the left RCA jack is the one to use when you are using a sub-out/LFE from the receiver. I have a Velodyne and that is the side I use. You could put a splitter from the sub-out into both line-ins. That would make the sub's amplifier auto-detect wake up with less signal to the sub.
I believe that most subs have a left and right if you were to use it without a dedicated sub-out from your AV receiver and were using it to produce the lows for just stereo speakers.
Frequency range (Hz) 35-150 Cross-over frequency (Hz) Upper cutoff frequency (Hz) Adjustable 40 - 150
Maximum SPL (dB)
Phase (°) Adjustable 0 - 180
Impedance (Ohm) 22k
Mains voltage (V) 230
Anonymous
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Yes, with smaller speakers setting the crossover higher will be better (to cover the low frequencies that the smaller speakers can't hit as well as larger speakers).
I never really thought about the splitter for your sub problem. But that may just work. Don't quote me on that. But it is an interesting thought. Hypothetically, at worse, the right line-in won't be "direct" and hence, filtered by both the receiver and sub. That would give you more bass, but a corrupt (for lack of a better term) signal won't give you as good a sound. I'd have to defer to a professional on that.
Well after raising the frequency to 200 Hz for the speakers the Panasonic started coming around. On 6.1 with a DVD the bass sounds really good although I use a 5.1 setup. TV needs to be cranked then the bass sounds ok. Although better I still think I'm at the lower end of acceptable bass. I'm still going to try another receiver which brings me to yet another question...
If I get a receiver that supports Pro Logic II but not Pro Logic (Onkyo SR600) will that hurt my surround sound TV watching experience?
Ok, I got home with the Onkyo SR600 about 2 hours ago. Set it up quick and ...WOW! It's going to need some tweaking (What receiver wouldn't)but so far I'm very happy. It has great sound separation and lots of bass from the sub woofer (I needed to turn down the sub woofer till I find a nice balance). I think I can put away the empty box. This baby is going to be here a while.
Thanks again guys. In the coming days I'll be asking for tweaking tips I'm sure.
Congratulations! I'm glad that you are happy with your new receiver. There are many settings on that receiver to tweeak--and the on screen display makes it so easy to do. Remember that the OSD only goes out the composite video or the s-video, not the component video.
What's the benefit of running video through the receiver? Right now I use almost nothing but RCA cables for sound and all my video stuff goes more or less right to the TV.
My Setup (If it helps paint a picture): 56" Rear Projection Tv (4 sets of RCA and S-video Jacks) Camcast Digital Cable (Coax, s-video and 2 RCA Jacks) Tivo (1 set of Coax, RCA, S-Video) VCR (1 set of Coax, RCA and S-video) DVD Player (1 set of Optical, Coax and RCA Jacks{both 5.1 and stereo}) Playstation 2(RCA Jacks 2 stereo 1 video)
My picture and sound signal starts at the cable box then to the tivo via S-video and RCA Jacks from there the video signal goes to the tv and the sound goes to the receiver via RCA jacks.
The VCR also uses RCA cables. the 2 stereo cables go to the receiver and the video to the tv via RCA cable.
The DVD uses S-video and 5.1 surround RCA Jacks to the receiver.
Playstation 2 uses 3 RCA Cables. Sound to the receiver and video to the tv.
First thing on your "to do" list is to get rid of those analog connections from your dvd player to your receiver. You MUST use a digital connection to take advantage of the DTS option(which I'm sure your receiver supports). DTS is a souped up audio track with much higher bit-rate than a normal audio track and for the most part---ROCK. That's now the first thing I look for on a DVD box. Does it have a DTS soundtrack? As far as the advantage of going through the receiver(for video)...it's pretty much for convenience. Since your TV has so many inputs that's not really an issue. If your tv had fewer inputs you'd be able to switch from each video source via your receiver.
Just an update. I've spent about 7 hours watching movies, TV and goofing around with the Onkyo SR600. I am just thrilled with how much control I have. I must admit I'm still trying to figure out the best settings for TV and DVD Movies but it's going great.
Here's a question...
If I use an optical cable from my DVD player to my receiver do I still need the 5 RCA cables that make up the 5.1 system (I assume the subwoofer is always needed)
Anonymous
Posted on
If you use the optical cable from your DVD, you do not need any other audio cable from your DVD. You can also set/assocate any one of the digital ins to to any other input, ie optical 1 to video1, optical 2 to DVD, etc. even though optical 1 defaults to DVD...
I accidentily plugged the optical cable from my DVD to optical 2...took me a few minutes to realize that. I didn't want to have to plug the receiver back out again, so I just switched the association for the optical 2.
Greg Lee
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Mike: there is no benefit to running video through a receiver other than, possibly, the convenience of not having to press a extra button to change your TV's input mode.
Peter O
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This is a great thread - thanks!! I am returning the Pana 100 tomorrow for the same reason. Since there is no real benefit to running video through the receiver, is there a disadvantage (lesser quality?) to going through the receiver?
Anonymous
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There is a benefit of running video through a reciever. If you have a TV that does not have enough inputs for all your video sources (cable, vcr, dvd, game consoles, etc). You're still able to use that TV.
I'm sure that the audio purist cringes at the thought of video through a receiver. Some receivers do have modes that will turn off all circuits that don't deal with specifically the audio (ie video, front display, etc) in order to give the most pure sound possible. I believe the Onkyo SR600 and SR700 have that ability.
There can be a disadvantage with running video though a receiver. Some receivers don't have the necessary bandwidth if you are running HDTV through it. The Kenwood 6070 has a 10 MHz bandwidth. HDTV needs 20-something MHz to not degrade it. I think the SR600 has a 50 MHz bandwidth.
Anonymous
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I just got the onkyo 600, and I need to get speakers too. what speakers (up to $350) do you recommend for the onkyo 600 (mid sized room)?
I checked the onkyo SKS-HT500, and they just sound terrible. Im also thinking about the JBL SCS135 or 150 (with the monster sub) Are there any affordable alternatives from polk? infinity ? or any others?
Anonymous
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Anon, I got the AR HC5 hooked-up to an older Onkyo (TX-DS494)and it sounds pretty good. I'm using this in a bedroom and like the fact that these speakers are very easy to hide. I painted them to match the room decor and they are almost invicible.
Anonymous
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Quote:
"There can be a disadvantage with running video though a receiver. Some receivers don't have the necessary bandwidth if you are running HDTV through it. The Kenwood 6070 has a 10 MHz bandwidth. HDTV needs 20-something MHz to not degrade it. I think the SR600 has a 50 MHz bandwidth."
If you really want an uncorrupted HDTV (720p/1080i) signal, you should really get a switcher that has a bandwidth of 50-60mhz. While the high 20mhz range can suffice for progessive-scan DVD (480p), this range will soften any of the higher frequencies with 720 and 1080.
Anonymous
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If you really want to hear some awesome speakers at not a astronomical price check out the new Athenas at BestBuy large pair ~$550 (dual 8" and 1" tweeter) smaller pair ~$350 (single 8" and 1" tweeter). These new speakers have extremely good separation and clarity for the price.
Fox
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I would like to address the question about needing the analog 5.1 outputs with the optical link connected. If you are going to play SACD or DVD-A, YOU WILL ABSOLUTELY need to keep the 5.1 analog outputs hooked up to the receiver. Why you ask? Because the copy write protection on both of those formats will NOT ALLOW you to play anything through the digital link without downsampling the signal to 16bit/48KHz. Keeping them both connected and switching between them depending upon what you are playing would be the optimal solution or if can't do that, use the analog connection rather than the digital one assuming your DVD player has all the goodies built in DTS, Dolby etc. This will ensure you are getting the higher quality sound to the amplifier in the receiver, especially if you have the 24bit/192KHz DAC built into the DVD player. Remember even if you run a digital signal to the receiver, it still has to convert the signal to analog before it can amplify so you might as well do it with the DVD player and use the analog outputs.
Larry Bud
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Anaon, Looks like you are looking for a really good deal on a full 5.1 set of speakers. If you can go a few $ more checkout the "Special" on the JBL Northridge with PB10 sub at BHphoto. Almost bought it but I only needed a decent center and sub as I have an old JBL surround system and a pair of better bookshelves I'm going to use as fronts. It is way better than the 135/150 & I think it was less than $400.
Anonymous
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well overall i think that the sony str 995 is the best out so far in price and what it offers.its a 7.1 and has all the surround sound decodes execpt thx.100-110x7 watts, iseen going for 389.00 on a website,thats under 500.00 value
Anonymous
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Would love to hear more from the folks re the Panasonic SAHE 200. I assumed a sizeable jump up from the 100 that was raved on by consumers awhile back.
Well Fox it was good to hear someone that knows about hooking up a full option reciever. You are right about the DVD audio or SACD. I don't know what his player will decode but if you have it you may as well use it. One more suggestion for speakers is the Wharfdale line. I have a set that has great sound. My son is a bit jealous, seeing as he spent $2200 on a set of Boston's that don't sound much better (a bit though). The Wharfs are between $200 and $300 a pair for book shelves on wildwestelectronics.com I just found this sight and I am very glad I did. Lot's of good info.
Anonymous
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Still need to hear more on the Panasonic SAHE200; what's this about the TAKE and bamboo etc... that is supposed to cut down on distortion. And what about the gold connections? Want to hear from owneres of the 200 to see if it justifies buying the 200 over the 100.....
I just recently purchased the Panasonoc SA-HE200 in silver along with the JBL SCS-150 speakers.
IMO it sounds great!
Anonymous
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Considering all the information posted here concerning sub-woofer output, I am surprised that no one has discussed placement of the sub. It will make a huge difference in some rooms. One method used rather effectively is to place the sub in the location you plan to sit, and while playing the system, find the location where the sub-woofer performance is the most acceptable. If the place you find yourself in is one which practically and aesthetically allows you to make the permanenent location of the sub, put it there, and go to the pre-chosen spot for your listening seat. Check it out to see if it works for you. The number of corners in the proximity of the sub is very critical, as it can directionally focus the normally omnidirectional sound of the lows. While different designs favor different placement, height is sometimes also a factor.
Anonymous
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What's the difference between the HK AVR 225 and the 125?
Anonymous
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Fry's in Dallas/Ft. Worth area has the Onkyo TX-SR700 on sale today at $399 plus tax. I just got back from Circuit City and they price matched it. I like CC much better than Fry's for service and support. I had them add a 3 yr service policy for $39 since I've had good luck with those in the past. CC saleman told me the store cost on the SR700 was $420.
Anonymous
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TELL ME MORE ABOUT THE SAHE-200 PANASONIC RECEIVER THX JTMJ
Could anyone recommend which among marantz sr5300, onkyo tx-sr600 and denon avr1803 is best for my B&W DM601S3s? Please help.
anonomous
Posted on
hahaha
Anonymous
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Trying to set up the Panasonic SA-HE200 for 5.1 (and 6.1) with a progressive scan DVD and a set of AR HC6 surround sound speakers with little success. The manual is not very intuitive (or maybe it's me?) Can anyone recommend a good web site that covers this in detail? Sounds good but the back speakers are barely audible and sometimes not at all audible. I'm using optical connectors.
Just set up a Panasonic SA-HE200 and the volume is great with a CD or DVD but I am disappointed with the volume when watching the TV or VCR. In fact the TV puts out more volume than the receiver. Has any one else experienced this problem or is the something in the set up I am missing as the manual is not particularly good? This is my first experience with receiver on its own. I previously had a Magnavox 2 ch. package that was only 45 w/ch and it was louder watching the TV than the SA-HE200. Can anyone help.
Chris
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Mike, you might want to see if you can get an HK 325. Future Shop in Canada is clearing them out to make room for the new models, & you might be able to find a good deal. I saved $500 CAD on mine.
Karen S.
Unregistered guest
Posted on
I am yet another person wanting to know if the Panasonic SA-HE200 is much better than the 100 (Consumer Reports' "Best Buy"). Actually, I'm open to getting something else altogether if it's much better quality. I have Cambridge SoundWorks 108 Home Theater Speaker System. I'm anxious to get a good quality receiver. Thanks!
