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New member Username: HoopPost Number: 1 Registered: Mar-06 | Hello All, I am long time audio enthusiast who hasn't upgraded his audio equipment since 1990. I've been reading all over this forum, trying to figure out how to put together a great but cost effective musicly oriented system. I'm a closet rock star guitar player, and like to jam along with my CD's and Concert DVD's. Sometimes I just drop the guitar and just enjoy the music. I like all music styles. The biggest problem I have is that the room I'm working with is really small. 10' x 11'. (My wife has given me free reign with our smallest unused bedroom, so a Computer/Guitar Practice/Music room it is!) This will be 90/10 Music/HT. I will probably start out with a 2.1 system, and expand it into 5.1 later. Sound quality is way more important to me than pure volume. I'd like to shy away from the whole Sat/Sub scene - Seems like I might do well going the bookshelf route, with a sub to cover the low end. I'm prepared to spend a reasonable amount of money (what I consider reasonable at least). Front 2 Speakers 500-600. Sub 300.00 Also note, that I've never auditioned a lot of this gear, and am not very knowledgable as to which components compliment which speakers. I'd like to use your experience to limit the audition playing field. Anyway, here's what I'm considering so far: Receiver: 1) NAD T743 - Heard it's very musical, and can be had for about 500-600 ? 2) Marantz SR4600 - Have heard the SR7500 and was impressed. (389.00 @ accessories4less). Seems like a really solid value. Not too interested in Panasonic, Pioneer, Onkyo, HK or Yamaha. Speakers: Here's where I'm unsure. I'm actually listing some of these based strictly on reviews and specifications. I've read so many reviews, I'm now lost in them, and have no idea what to get... Please help... 1) Energy Reference Connoisseur RC-10 2) Axiom M3Ti 3) PSB Image B25 4) Polk Audio RTi6 (Mass market Circuit City stuff I know, but I like it's full sound) 5) B&W 600 S3 6) Wharfedale Diamond 9.2 I've heard good things about Ascends, but although Sound quality is the most important thing, looks play a small factor too, and I just don't like the boring black box. Sub: Although the room is small, I'll probably still need a sub to fill in the lows: 1) HSU STF-1 Any advice you experts can give would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if I've overlooked anything obvious, and I'd appreciate any feed back on the choices I've listed above. Thanks alot! Hoop |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 144 Registered: Nov-05 | The only thing you've overlooked is that no matter what recommendations you get here, you will still need to audition your choices. You are probably about to be bombarded w/ personal preferences. I suggest you get out and listen. Only then will the members here even have an idea what type of sound you are looking for. JMO |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7904 Registered: May-04 | At all costs, avoid audio stores. They will only confuse you. Go to Audiogon (http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl) to look for some used equipment. Find someone who is trying to sell their entire system. Give them a call and they will tell you how absolutely wonderful their system is and how everything works so well together. This will be an honest, unbiased opinion. They will tell you the only thing better than what they are selling is what they intend to buy next. Ask them what they are looking to buy. Then hang up the phone and go buy that system. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1239 Registered: Sep-04 | Jan You are a cruel man... Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1240 Registered: Sep-04 | Hoop, If you're really interested in music first by a margin of 90/10, then you really want to concentrate on that as a solution. A decent stereo amp will usually outperform a surround sound receiver. Decent stereo speakers will usually sound better than a sub/bookshelf solution. You also mention nothing about sources. A rubbish CD player will still sound like rubbish, no matter how good the amp and speakers... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3704 Registered: Mar-05 | Hoop, from your list I'd pick the NAD + Wharfedale, that would make for a very musical combo. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7908 Registered: May-04 | Cruel, Frank? Maybe. But how many of the recommendations on this forum are merely what someone owns or what they would prefer to own? My advice to Hoop would be to go listen to some live music before he heads to the audio salons. Refresh your memory for live music and what makes it sound different than most audio systems and then make some decisions. Your speaker selection particularly is all over the map. This would indicate soemone who is merely going off specs and some vague idea of what kind of hifi system they want. Get to the music and buy something that sounds as close to music as possible. Actually, I would suggest you blow off the mainstream stuff and get something weird off the internet. NAD, Denon, Marantz, they all have compromises made to sell to the masses. Get on the internet and find something peculiar. By a Creek amplifier or put together a Bottlehead design. Try some single driver loudspeakers. Just do something other than what everyone else is doing. Does the world really need another NAD owner? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7909 Registered: May-04 | Hey, here's an idea. Buy something that hasn't been designed by three committees. Get an amplifier that was designed by one person. One person who you can call and talk to about their product. Someone who can tell you what they think their stuff sounds like. Then ask them what speakers they like. Make sure the speakers were designed by one guy (or gal). Two at the most 'cause sometimes the guy who designs the speaker systems has someone else do the cabinet. Just don't buy anything that will be replaced in nine months for nothing more than a new model number. Get something that when you walk into an audio salon and tell them what you own, you get funny looks like the salespeople have never heard of this stuff before. I'm willing to bet that gets you a better system than something from the "big" audio companies. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7910 Registered: May-04 | Yeah, that's the ticket! If you call and the person who answers the phone asks what department you need, hang up. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1609 Registered: Dec-04 | Basement bionics for Audio Weirdo's. Has a nice ring to it. Then youy can hang out in your favorite room and fiddle with knobs and dials, switches and wires and possibly never be heard from again. At a nice comfortable pace, alone and secluded in your own personal Nirvana. When people seem startled at your appearance, they might say 'Oh, I thought you were Hoop, but he was never so pasty white.And cover your legs. Funky one-off or rare stuff is pretty cool, but purchase non-perishables in advance. Jan has a survivalist friend who wholesales, I think. wink. |
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New member Username: HoopPost Number: 2 Registered: Mar-06 | "You also mention nothing about sources. A rubbish CD player will still sound like rubbish, no matter how good the amp and speakers..." True - never mentiond that - Since I'll be buying everything new, i figured I'd get match the CD player with the Amp, NAD with NAD, Marantz with Marantz. Basically most of the music will be from CD and DVD. I gravitate towards Classic Rock... I will probably stick with a 5.1 system, because I will want to do some HT. Any specific comments on the speaker choices I listed? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7911 Registered: May-04 | Hey, Nuck, I don't think Hoop's paying any attention to us anymore. Just because I've got a power amp that runs off a battery you don't have to bring up my cousin whose on the run from the law. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1624 Registered: Dec-04 | Vinnie stopped by..he says 'hi'. Hoop, Start with a unit that delivers good stereo and a nice pair of speakers. The Marantz 7500 is not bad at all(havn't heard it) and the B25's are very good(have heard). Be warned that all Psb's have mood swings, and the amp/receiver must be low impedence capable. I have seen the Nad ad with 2ohm values, and I don't buy it. The H/K line will serve the purpose well, perhaps a 1070 avr to start. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 847 Registered: May-05 | OK, I almost stayed out of this fray because what Jan says is somewhat true, I guess. I own Ascend CBM 170s, purchased primarily for HT/2 channel use and found them to be excellent for the former and lacking on the latter. I've listened to the following speakers that you mentioned above, Axiom M3Ti and Polk Audio RTi6 and they are inferior to the Ascends, IMHO. If T-Man were here, he would recommend the Wharfdales and others will recomemd the B&W 600 S3s. I can't remember for sure but I believe that it was Ziggy that always recommended the Energys. So, you'll get different opinions and especially at this price point. However, if I were leaning towards 2 channel mostly, I wouldn't even try to go with a 5.1 set-up in your room size. I'd either stretch the budget now and buy a slightly better set of fronts and match them with a good sub, the HSU is a good choice in your price range, to handle the interesting dynamics that you get in HT. If it were my money, I take a listen to Alegria Audio's Emmas, which I just recently had in my home and reviewed, see also Jan's excellent review of these speakers. They aren't perfect but at $600 a pair, they're incredibly good and they'd do great for music and admirably for HT. In the cherry wood, they are incredibly good looking and you've got a speaker that most people will never had heard but they'll be impressed when they hear it and wonder where you got it and you can tell them you spent $2000/pair and they'll believe you. Again, IMHO If you don't like them, it will cost you about $40 to ship them back to Tim at Alegria. But, I'll be amazed if you don't like them. As for the source, I bought a used CDP off Audiogon for $550 that cost $1800 new a few years ago and it's in incredible condition. Buy a Denon Universal or NAD Universal or Arcam Universal off audiogon if you can find one and match it with a decent 2.1 channel amp or integrated. Good luck, Dave. |
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New member Username: HoopPost Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | Awesome. Thanks a lot for the input gents..... I guess it's time to go do a little listening. Hey Jan, I'm in Dallas as well. Where are the best places to go audition? If I remember correctly, most high end shops are down near Preston and LBJ? Any suggestions? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1628 Registered: Dec-04 | The shops there are up past six flags, and pretty shops up by plano |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7918 Registered: May-04 | There are no high end shops in Dallas. There are shops which specialize in home theater and a few shops which carry predominantly two channel stuff and are forced to cater to the ht crowd to stay in business. But, as the seventh largest city in the US, Dallas is not too hot on high end audio. Hoop, it's kind of hard to tell you much more at this point than check the Yellow Pages. You don't seem to have a clear focus on what you want. 90/10 music wouldn't suggest buying a 5.1 receiver to me. If music is the most important aspect of the system's performance, then going to a shop which specializes in ht is only going to allow you to listen to some explosions through a ht system. A shop like The Home Theater Store will have an very good selection of ht gear but they don't really display anything that can't play more than two channels at a time. That's not their market; and their speaker displays leave a lot to be desired if you're after imaging, soundstaging and timbral accuracy. A shop like Audio Concepts will have mostly two channel gear and will only display some high priced ht gear since that's not their market. You would probably have to set up an appointment to have them connect a $500 ht receiver. In DFW, you either have stores which keep single speaker dem rooms (and virtually no ht) or stores which line up twenty pairs on three walls and only display two channel when a client brings in a Redbook CD, which you'll hear played through a DVD player and there will be a large TV in between all the speakers. Without knowing what products you are truly interested in, I find it hard to suggest you go anyhwere in particular. If you want to start at The Home Theater Store, ask for Bill and tell him you met me on the forum. He's the manager and will set you up with a salesperson who can spend some time with you. But, The HT Store doesn't carry Marantz or NAD. As far as I know, no shop in Dallas or Fort Worth stocks both lines. The speakers you've expressed an interest in are all at various shops, if at all, in DFW. Mostly not at all. When you are this wide open in your decision making process, the best I can tell you is to stop by a few stores on a quiet day in the middle of the week and listen to a few things. As I said above, I think you should go listen to some music first and call a few manufacturers who are passionate about their designs. But that leaves out all the ht receiver manufacturers. They are passionate about buttons and remotes. Have at it, Hoop. |
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New member Username: HoopPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks a lot Jan. I appreciate the feedback. I'll take your advice and go talk to Bill, and see if he can steer me in a good direction. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1655 Registered: Dec-04 | So when does Jan open the audio boutique in DFW, with Nuck as an investing partner? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1656 Registered: Dec-04 | No, really? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1657 Registered: Dec-04 | That market is underserved and needs the product and support. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7919 Registered: May-04 | And we need the cash! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1675 Registered: Dec-04 | Show me the market, I show the green. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1676 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, haul your pasty white legs into the sunshine and find the people we need to service. It means dragging your retired butt out from the Audio Havin of home and rousting the other audiophiles from their rockers as well. A bit harsh, I concede, but marketing with attitude starts at square one. That is here. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1025 Registered: May-05 | Can I get in on this? I think I'd make a good salesman. Anyone remember the Jerky Boys a while back? That would be my approach... "A customer comes in, he doesn't know of he wants to buy. I take his face and shove it right in the f&%kin' hood... You see this car? You buy this car... I break your f&%kin'head... I had problems down there Paul..." I can see it now... Jan would be correcting everyone's wrong assumptions Nuck would be laughing at them and getting Jan even more worked up while it was happening And if they tried to leave empty handed, I'd cut them off at the door All in all, a very successful operation IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1678 Registered: Dec-04 | Pretty much the business plan I would bring to the board, Stu. You got a problem wit dat? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 854 Registered: May-05 | Nuck, I was planning on having Jan move his pasty white legs to Spokane to open a "high end audio shop" here to serve other audiophiles in town. Oh wait, we have no one here that really cares qualifies as an "audiophile," myself included, AND we have very few people that want "high end" anything and I FORGOT, I live in the audio desert. So, where do I send my money for this the upscale audio store in D/FW. I can drawl if need be. LOL Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 145 Registered: Nov-05 | No one has offered to manage the money. I volunteer. I could also serve as the financial advisor. I advise to start sending me the cash! Since I have no use for the extra money after we travel to hawaii, or any other exotic location that the collected funds would allow, I would be the perfect guy for this venture. Of course the money would be used to purchase only the finest.........hotel rooms, 1st class dining,and site seeing is a must. After all this is a huge responsiblity, and I promise to audition gear at every stop, after all, you do want to know what the people are buying. And it wouldnt hurt to purchase some gear for myself so I have plenty of experience w/ each piece. Really, we could work something out? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1679 Registered: Dec-04 | Holy heck, y'all want some worms just bang the log. Sleaze-ball lawyers and accountants smell the money! No offence intended guys. We would ride Jan's good name and my money, I see a discrepancy here. Then, of course, Jan would retire for good, and I would be left with a lawyer and a councillor, neither of whom have a buck to share. I do think however, that we have an opportuity here, perhaps we can market the entire prospectus as something inside the big red prohibitive sign with the great red swath across it(Enter Berny). The potential for disaster looms large, boys! (Like that ever stopped me before). Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead! Right, then. Pip, pip. |
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Bronze Member Username: BasicaudioChula vista, Ca US Post Number: 11 Registered: Mar-06 | I agree with mr vigne..go to www.audiogon.com I go there all the time just to buy or view. I have bought some things there and people are class acts. Many of them are upgrading or just have too much excess. I can't believe the pricing of the some of the well to do, because they would sell a $95k or 50k loudspeaker system for 1/3 or less of the price and some only have it for a year or two just because something else caught their senses. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1838 Registered: Dec-04 | Buy the f$%&$(* thing, Watson! Don't make me send Stu! |
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Bronze Member Username: BasicaudioChula vista, Ca US Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-06 | early last year, there was a wealthy audiophile who was selling excess CUSTOM made loudspeakers of two different design and models for about $500-600 that would cost $3k-6k as far as i can remember. I think many here would like the design. he just had 20 extra pairs made by a personal friend and custom manufacturer that he thought of selling to a limited few but decided to share it with the public at an amazing price, the speaker weighed over 150lbs each. He told me that he was tired of auditioning all the many high end stores with their marketing and bias preferences instead of catering to his needs. so he just decided he's had it with them and have someone else custom design what he wanted out of a loudspeakers. He sold half to audiogon, the other half at ebay. Just the cabinets alone are worth in the thousands, hand made not those cheap MDF, viny plaster boards. the material used were those esoteric and exotic parts used by quality manufacturers like B&W and the like. too bad, they all sold within two weeks, and by the time i got paid, they were all gone. all the customers were happy they got an exotic design that you will never see again. The point is, sometimes there are things made from the ground up that is not necessarily intended for mass production for the public but custom made! I had a chance to buy one but blew it. There are so many interesting designs and materials being made by so many people. MAGICO is one, using aircraft grade aluminum. Transmission audio is another using a pure ribbon according to them. |
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Bronze Member Username: BasicaudioChula vista, Ca US Post Number: 13 Registered: Mar-06 | nuck is funny! i think he shoud start his own audio chain like mr vigne there...anyway the crew here knows there stuff. i'm just a wanna be customer with blue collar pockets. WE should all go union just in case some loudspeakers turn out to be crap and we all go on STRIKE. Hey wait a minute? we go on strike now, there's this company we should PICKET and boycott. it's called BOSE or theater research, what's the difference? i'm sorry for the bose bashing. I'm sure nuck,rantz and stu would agree with me here considering their taste for real loudspeakers! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1841 Registered: Dec-04 | http://greatwhitena.blogspot.com/ You may wish to reconsider the business arrangements, Jim. |