Suggestions for matching new receiver to klipsch speakers...
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New member Username: BigpoppaphileSAINT CLOUD, MN United States Post Number: 1 Registered: Mar-06 | First off I would like to say that I have been browsing these forums for the last few weeks on and off and have found them to be quite helpful and offer mature and useful info compared to the random epinions-esque reviews that have suggestions like "get a sony man, my bro has one and it slams!" You guys are running a valuable resource for info here and it has helped get me started shopping wisely. With that said, here are my questions. I'm currently in the search for a new receiver to replace my dying kenwood vr705. I was hoping it would last longer, but for under $200 at a best buy, I can't realistically hold anything against it. I've been looking around in the $500 dollar range at yamaha, denon, h/k, and marantz. I also noticed some mention of nad receivers being a good match with klipsch in these forums, but also saw some complaining of a weird "hiss" problem with the nads. Any truth to that? What would people that currently have klipsch speakers recommend for a good match? I'm most concerned about musical quality even though I watch a lot of movies. I think if a receiver sounds good to me with music I will enjoy movies with it as well. Thanks in advance for any help, Eric |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 868 Registered: Oct-04 | At your price range I'd recommend the Pioneer 1015Tx, it will give the best performance at your price point IMO. If you can buy used I'd look for a Pioneer Elite , Harman Kardon AVR3xx-6xx, NAD, or Marantz. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekboyTampa, FL United States Post Number: 402 Registered: Dec-03 | Eric: Kano brings up good suggestions. I had my Klispch CF-2s paired with Kenwood before and then Harman Kardon. You need a mellow (warm) receiver since the Klipsch tend to be very efficient (> 95dB) and sharp in the high ranges. Klipsch and (Onkyo) Integra didn't sound too bad either. Exactly what model of Klipsch do you have? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3685 Registered: Mar-05 | Eric, look at accessories4less.com for some great deals on authorized refurbs and new Marantz receivers. if you go for HK, Harman Audio on eBay sells authorized refurbs with full HK warranty, for $500 you should be able to land an HK435 or 635. Marantz is a tad bit warmer than HK and therefore would probably balance out your Klipsch better. |
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New member Username: BigpoppaphileSAINT CLOUD, MN United States Post Number: 2 Registered: Mar-06 | I currently have the klipsch rb-25 bookshelfs as my main two channel speakers. My initial plan 2 years ago when I got started in audophile/hi-fi listening was to get these bookshelfs as my main speakers since I really liked the klipsh horn sound, and then add matching reference series floor standers (rf-7s?)once I moved out of my apartment and had more money. Right now, even with the under-powered kenwood, I can get it plenty loud for what I like and what my neighbors probably hate. But since my receiver is on the fritz and didn't cost enough to warrent a repair I'm now needing a new one before I was planning on it. With that in my mind and having learned my lesson on skimping on electronics, I want to by a quality receiver that will at least last long enough for when I can match all my speakers once I buy new klipsch floorstanders. Another thing I forget to ask when I first posted was a question about listening to the amps. Being from st. cloud the only two audio stores in my town are best buy and circuit city. Needless to say I'm not thrilled about anything those big boxes could sell me, circuit city carries the H/K's, but I still wouldn't buy it from them even if that is what I wanted. I found a guy that has a tv shop and he is a denon dealer, but all he had for speakers was one brand, Jamo, and I wasn't impressed with the sound that match was making. Is there anyone from minneapolis, mn in this forum that could recommend a good shop to go check out some marantz or nad? It's only about an hour drive to the cities which I would be willing to take to find out some more info before buying. Thanks for the quick responses and input, I checked out the web links posted and those sites look great, I'm still just a little shy of buying something I have never heard before. |
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New member Username: BigpoppaphileSAINT CLOUD, MN United States Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | well, here's an update on my shopping. In an effort to hear as many possible brands in person before making my decision I went on a fantastic and pointless receiver goose chase today. I went to both the marantz and klipsch manufacturer web sites in an effort to find authorized dealers in minneapolis. My hope was to find someone that sold both marantz receivers and klipsch speakers and use them to test some equipment. After driving an hour and locating Stereoland in minneapolis I was hoping to hear some marantz receivers. I ended up finding a less than enthusiastic salesperson even though it was a quiet afternoon in the store. The guy at stereoland basically told me in as few words that he was not a fan of the "horn loaded sound" (I use quotes as he cupped his hands around his mouth to emphasize the effect while he said the words) of klipsch. This kind of pissed me off a little. I view myself as a rather open minded guy and see the wide range of choices and opinions part of the fun of shopping and finding audio equipment that suits a certain person's taste part of the fun of the whole process. To me, a certain amount of respect for each others opinions goes along with this. I realize that my speaker choice is very forward and bright for most people's taste, but that is what I like. The only speakers this store had was paradigm(nothing against them, I know nothing of that brand, just found it odd that was the only loudspeaker sold there). Even further, after explaining to this guy that I had basically made a special trip and was not from downtown, and would like to listen to marantz, he said he couldn't really "hook one up for me" to audition since all his models were on clearance. Then he tried to sell me on a rotel system 1000 dollars out of my price range using the explanation that unless I spent more than a grand on a "separates receiver/amp combo" it didn't matter what I hooked up to my speakers. I'm sorry for rambling off a complaint that means nothing to you guys, I guess I'm just looking for an understanding nod from fellow people that care what their music sounds like even if they aren't willing to spend half of their salary on technology. Maybe I'm making a bigger deal about this purchase than I need to and should just order a h/k or marantz from the above mentioned online dealers and be happy with the sound which will hopefully be better than my cheap, dying kenwood receiver. Oh, I also went to ultimate electronics in an effort to make my drive worthwhile and auditioned some yamy's and denons. The denons seemed clean, but lackluster, while the yamaha's were more open and had better bass, but seemed too grating on my ears for lack of a better term. At least this store had the same speakers I have, so that helped in shopping, but ultimately I wanted the cleaness of the denon sound with more punch, but not more highs. Thanks again for your help on this forum. I just read a link explaining the design and layout of the innards of receivers. http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/blowing/index-j.html very interesting, check it out if you haven't all ready |
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New member Username: Kevin_h_wallenWoodbury, MN Post Number: 1 Registered: Mar-06 | That is too bad about the person at stereoland in MPLS. I think I know who you are refferring to though. I go there very often and they can be very helpful and offer good specials and demos. The person that you should talk to there is Ron, he will work with you and let you audition some stuff. I am sorry about your experience at stereoland, but it is a good store. There is just one crabby guy who doesnt want to talk to you unless you are willing to spend $2000+ on Rotel. Like edster said before, the ebay hk store is great. You can get some very nice recievers for much cheaper and with a warranty. Check it out. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3689 Registered: Mar-05 | Eric, yep, Yamaha + Klipsch = disaster. sorry about your Stereoland experience, I hate salespeople like that. If you're still checking out dealers based on manufacturers' website "dealer locaters" make sure you call ahead first to confirm that they actually have the stuff available to listen to before you drive out there. Often you can get a good feel for the store from talking to someone on the phone. |
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Silver Member Username: TwebbzAnn Arbor, Michigan USA Post Number: 372 Registered: Apr-04 | I have both a Marantz stereo 80Wpc receiver and a Nad stereo 120Wpc integrated amp. I think the NAD is in a league above the Marantz. The Marantz seems a bit muddy while the NAD is very clear and detailed. Both are warm souding. My Rotel RX-1052 is cooler, more neutral but at the same level as the NAD in sound performance. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7860 Registered: May-04 | I'll go out on a limb here: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/193312.html |
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New member Username: BigpoppaphileSAINT CLOUD, MN United States Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | reading the above link I'm both intrigued and confused at the same time. My first impression is that I have to buy one. But then I logically think that there is no way something such as this T-amp can be seriously considered as sounding as good as everyone says. Plus, how would 15 watts split between my klipsch even compare to something giving more power? I always thought the physics of sound meant more power to the speaker equals more air moved? |
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New member Username: BigpoppaphileSAINT CLOUD, MN United States Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | just went to sonic impact's web site in an effort to understand more about this. My questions are, what is the definition of class AB, D, and T amplifiers? |
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Silver Member Username: GeekboyTampa, FL United States Post Number: 417 Registered: Dec-03 | Eric: I don't know if I can do this any justice as I'm not very versed. So here it goes, without looking anything up. From what I can understand... I think of Class A amplifiers as low power (in wattage) but high wasted usage of power. Most Class A amplifiers are like 50W or less! Class A tends to have the purest signal because there's less things changing in the amplification stage, because there's constant current (power) going through the cicruits. Class B amplifiers tend to be a little more efficient, using less power when not doing anything, but suffer from some distortion due to the design. Class AB amplifiers try to get the best of both the Class A and Class B amplifiers. I haven't heard of Class T amplifiers. I had only heard of the Class D (quasi digital) amplifier before. (Class D amplification is used in H/K's DPR series.) So, I did have to look it up and really can't understand "Class T". Maybe as it gets more press and usage, it will actually have serious products available. While I read some of what Jan's link to the other thread contained... I thought... hmmm... batteries. In any event, I saw one review of "Class T" amplification and it read that the downsides were that it was harsh in the highs, that it wasn't particulary good in certain musical passages and that the bass didn't seem controlled when pushed... I gotta wonder. But, for your outdoor speakers, whole house audio, and non-critical listening, it could be fun to use. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekboyTampa, FL United States Post Number: 418 Registered: Dec-03 | Eric: I wanted to write to you about the 15W thing. In most normal rooms and at reasonable listening volumes, most people use less than 40W of power powering their speakers! I would say that under most normal conditions, with relatively efficient speakers (greater than 91dB), then 15W is more than adequate to get 100dB SPL in a 12'x12'x10' room (note that is not an exact measurement, but pretty close). Klipsh are super efficient (usually greater than 96dB efficient) and are "easy" to power. In any event, as a benchmark, my H/K AVR-525 is 70W. At 0dB on the dial, I'm at half-power. I listen to most movies at about -18dB. I'm not going to do the real math, but that's like 1W! Yes... 1W! Cranking it to -15dB would put me about 2.2W and -12dB (defeaning in my 17' x 17' x 20' (ceiling) room, would be at 4.4W. Like we write often on this board, 40W -- OF REAL POWER -- is more than enough for most home theater rooms. There are some caveats we add to that. Some of which are speaker efficiency, amplifier design (can it really do 40W of PURE power!!!) and the echoic chamber qualities of the room. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7866 Registered: May-04 | This could turn into a real lesson in audio which I'm not certain I want to jump into. First, half way up on the volume dial has no reference to what percentage of the amplifier's wattage you are using. The numbers and position of the dial are only relative to that volume control and don't really mean anything. Actually, on many volume controls, half way up (12 O'Clock) is close to full power on musical peaks. Next, music is transient in nature and therefore there are no steady state (RMS) wattage considerations when you play music. Even a long sustained organ pedal note will not require absolutely constant power. Classes of operation are fairly simple to understand but more difficult to explain on the forum due to the limitations of the graphics I can include. The best idea is to learn for yourself by reading for yourself. Put "class a operation audio amplifiers" in a search engine or click on this link; http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=class%20a%20operation%20audio%20amplifiers There are many classes of operation and, for the most part, they deal with the efficiency of the circuit. Class A1 is the most inefficient type of operation because the signal does not switch between gain devices as the sinwave passes from postive going to negative going. A single ended amplifier will always be class A operation. Class D is a fairly recent addition and is known for its very high efficiency but is generally considered usable in only a few consumer audio applications. Most subwoofer plate amps and a growing number of car audio amplifiers are running in class D since the problems of class D will either not be present (high frequency harshness) or the problems will be masked by road noise. Class T is peculiar to the Tripath chip amplifiers which includes the Sonic Impact amplifiers and its various cousins out in the field. Class T has received excellent reviews for its sound. In both the class D and class T amplifiers, the "digital" portion of the design is referring to the switching rate of the amplifier's power supply and not to how the amplifier actually passes a signal through its circuitry, which is still completely in the analog domain. As you'll see from the link, I own two of the class T amplifiers and have found them to be very good in all things audio. They are not perfect, but they will undoubtedly out perform any $500 receiver you might look at. This, of course, assumes you are trying to get to a high end system. Not everyone wants the same thing for their audio system; and what the class T amplifiers do extremely well might not be of importance to you if your music runs to volume oriented rock. However, if timbral accuracy, pace and timing, three dimensional stages and musically important detail are what you consider desireable, then the class T amps are difficult to beat. They excell at classical, jazz, blues and acoustic music of all types. They fall short of ear ringing volume oriented music with 3dB of dynamic range. How much volume you can achieve in your room is a function of several factors. The most important in determining SPL potential is the sensitivity, or efficiency, of your speakers. I'm going to gloss over somethings here for the sake of some type of brevity. You can find the information elsewhere on the forum or you can ask specific questions that I will answer at a later time. However, if your speakers are rated at 96dB w/ 1 watt in measured @ 1 meter, your speakers will play (nominally) twice as loud for the same wattage input than a speaker which measures only 86dB with the same stipulations. Twice as loud is what most people actually want when they say, "my system doesn't play loud enough." Twice as loud is considered the equivalent of ten times the amount of "watts" from your amplifier. Therefore, a speaker at 96dB yadyada using a 50 watt amplifier will play "as loud" as an 86dB speaker with a 500 watt amplifier. (There's a lot more to this, but that's the gist of the idea.) The Klipsch are high efficiency speakers. They will play louder with 5 watts than many speakers will with 50 watts. Additionally, many receivers have what would be considered "not very good" watts and can't deliver them to a real world speaker anyway. Whether the amount of wattage the class T amps provide is enough for you will be something that is determined by too many things to suggest you should just buy the amplifier. However, at $29 the Sonic Impact amp is well worth a listen and, as I suggest in the linked thread, is worth having as a spare amplifier for another room or to use if your amplifier needs to go in for service. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekboyTampa, FL United States Post Number: 424 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan: I don't know if you were referring to my reference of 0dB on the H/K line being "half-power"? On the H/K... 0dB is half power according to their technical support. So it is "relative" to half power on the H/K. I agree that on most volume control knobs, you really don't know what you're getting. I wish they were all standardized! I may have to experiment with the Class T amps. I won't in my home theater room, but probably for some other applications. Seems like a fun experiment, but not with my Paradigms.  |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1494 Registered: Feb-04 | Eric, I also own Klipsch speakers and bought a refurb harmon/kardon AVR-325 receiver from ecost.com two years ago. I like it and its features (including decent bass management if you have a sub). The h/k ebay store is a good deal, but wasn't available to me in Canada. I'm surprised that the little class-T amps have finally caught on here, since nobody here believed in them a year ago ("Ain't so such thing as a free lunch" and all that jazz). But that's certainly something to try. You might also browse, search and perhaps even ask on the Klipsch forums at http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/. Many people there will own the same model speakers as you do (I don't). As for power, I agree with others that 15W is plenty, 99% of the time. Most people don't realise how far they are from using all of the available power. I usually listen to trio Jazz at -40 to -30 on the volume dial, which translates to 0.01% to 0.1% of total available power. I only ever crank it to the max for very short times (say for a 1-minute drum solo) and then SPL exceeds 110 dB continous. Your speakers have 10 dB less sensitivity then mine, so you'd be setting the volume dial from -30 to -20 in my room and my receiver to get the same sound pressure level (SPL) as I get listening to trio jazz. Dropping to a 15W amp would cost you another 5dB. There's still some headroom there, but maybe not enough for hard rock. Depends on what you listen to. Also consider that the RF-7 drops to around 3 ohms at some low frequency, so it's not an easy speaker to drive should you upgrade to it. If you buy a receiver, consider on with pre-outs such that you can add an external stereo amplifier to drive the RF-7. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1495 Registered: Feb-04 | On the H/K... 0dB is half power according to their technical support. I have always assumed it would be full power. My manual doesn't mention it. Do you have a reference for that? Thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekboyTampa, FL United States Post Number: 429 Registered: Dec-03 | Peter asked: I have always assumed it would be full power. My manual doesn't mention it. Do you have a reference for that? It was an e-mail from Harman Kardon technical support. I don't have it anymore. If you'd like to send them an e-mail and post it here, please feel free to do so. If you don't have the time... I can send them one. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1498 Registered: Feb-04 | That's okay. I was just curious. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7871 Registered: May-04 | Please keep in mind that output voltage is realative to input voltage. To say 0dB on the vc is full power or half power, you must know the input voltage needed to drive the amplifier to that level and the output voltage of the source you are using. A higher or lower output voltage from the source would change the vc position where the amplifier reached full power. Most manufacturers would prefer to make their OdB position lower than full power with "X" volts in to provide a bit of headroom for the ocassional sojourn above 0dB. 3dB headroom would then translate to half power at 0dB when the incoming voltage is matched to spec. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekboyTampa, FL United States Post Number: 431 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan: agreed. I re-asked H/K about the 0dB being reference to half power and they were evasive -- this time -- in their answer. But... they were VERY PROMPT in responding! less than 30 minutes! Take that Yamaha, Sony, and all the others! From H/K Tech Support: "0dB in our amplifiers represents the amplifier in it's natural state. So, if the amplifier is set to 0dB that means that the level of sound that is coming from whatever source you're listening to (for example, a DVD or the radio) is not having the signal lowered or boosted by the volume control." So, I guess that's sorta in line with what you're writing Jan. However, it's different from the response I received 2 years ago. The tech seems to be referrring to the offsets?? |
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New member Username: BigpoppaphileSAINT CLOUD, MN United States Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks peter for the klipsch forum link, I'll check that out. Also good to know that the rf-7's are power hungry for future expansion of my system. Of course I'm liable to change my mind on that too, but good to know nonetheless. Which speakers do you own? And have you ever listened to a marantz receiver with them? |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 867 Registered: Apr-05 | Eric I have heard the Klipsch, and I own a Marantz. I can't tell you how they will sound together, but if you like the Klipsch being bright, Marantz can be generally described as warm in nature, but it really has great clarity, sometimes to its detriment when listening to audio that isn't recorded very well. I don't think you will go wrong with this combination. BTW has everyone noticed that the site does not allow annonymous posters any more? Sure cleared up a lot of clutter. |
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