Amp selection for my HK AVR 630
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Bronze Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 99 Registered: Dec-05 | I am copying this thread from the amp section to here since it is the most oft visited: Hi guys, this is not necessarily a question of "needing" more power. While my receivers specs say 75 wpc, it still seems to be more than other 100wpc receivers I have owned and auditioned. From what I understand this is the way HK rates their power as opposed to the company's who "pad" their ratings with caveats. When the HK says 75 wpc, they mean it with all channels running at the same time! It is set up to do 7.1, but right now due to waf and content availability, I stick with 5.1. My fr, fl, rs, and ls are all "mains" however, and the front two especially can soak up the power (Polk RTi10s). More I think than what they are currently getting (although "not bad"). My wife will be away for a business trip soon, and I was going to use that time to sneak in one more component. I would prefer to keep it within 1k, if I can get "more power" than I have now. I also hear that it is possible to use the unused channels to bi-amp, and this might also be good (ie 150 watts going to fl and fr) but I do not know the proper settings. It cannot be as simple as just removing the bridge and hooking them up to the separated posts can it? I assume you have to set the channel powering the highs to "small" and the one going to the lows "large"? Cheers, and thanks in advance for any help! |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 245 Registered: Jun-05 | Outlaw Audio 7125 for $999 http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7125.html Or you can bump up to $1499 for the 5x200W 7500 http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7500.html Both are built like tanks, high-current, high-power, although I don't know about their policies for shipping to Canada. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7681 Registered: May-04 | " ... this is not necessarily a question of "needing" more power ... " " ... the front two especially can soak up the power (Polk RTi10s). More I think than what they are currently getting (although "not bad")." " ... I would prefer to keep it within 1k, if I can get "more power" than I have now." I see from the answers in the "Amps" section, no one has asked you to explain what you actually mean by these seemingly contradictory statements, MC. Surely for less than $1,000 you can but more power (?), wattage (?), whatever (?) than your HK receiver boasts. But, what's your point? What is it you really are trying to gain by swapping out amplifiers? I know; cleaner highs, clearer mids and tighter bass. Everybody says they want that, MC, but then they apparently buy something that doesn't provide that which they claim to want. It makes one think most people don't really have a clue as to how to obtain what they claim to want. What makes you believe the amplifier is at fault here? Have you considered other solutions? Can we asume you know that adding wattage is not necessarily the answer to all problems? Do you realize that, if all other qualities remain equal, doubling the wattage of the amplifier will only gain a slight increase in volume? And, considering the HK power amplifier has fairly high slew rates and reasonably high current delivery into difficult loads, the additional wattage may gain you nothing. Biwiring could provide better results for technical reasons with the Polks, but the tweeter only requires about 10-12 watts to do its job at maximum SPL's. (Which means it matters not how you set the Xo for the tweeter section of the biwire; the task's outcome is determined by the network within the Polks. The tweeter will not care if you set the high pass filter for 80Hz when it doesn't begin to operate until above 2kHz.) Not much need for 150 watts going into the biwired Polks. (And, besides, it's still 75 watts going into the speakers, it is merely distributed differently. The amplifier will clip when the lower section of the biwire demands more than the aproximately 75 watts the amplifier can manage. The woofer sucks up the most power depending on how the speaker's Xo is wired and the midrange, though requiring more voltage than the tweeter, still is well below the needs of the low frequency driver. It is, however, usually the Xo components themself [inductors, resistors and capacitors] which "suck power" and biwiring may have no beenfit at all to that situation in this speaker.) Finally, what sonic advantages do you believe will come from a different amplifier when it is still being fed its signal from the front end of the HK reciver? We are talking a "system" here, MC, not a collection of individual components. I understand your time constraints here; and I'm sorry if this reads as blunt. But, possibly telling us what you actually think you would like to improve in your sound quality other than that your speakers "soak up power" might let us lead you to a useful upgrade rather than just recommending the products we like. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7682 Registered: May-04 | If you aren't sure what you really want, could you possibly tell us what you think your present system does "less well" considering you claim its sound to be "not bad"? |
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Bronze Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 100 Registered: Dec-05 | I have no issues with bluntness, and thanks for responding Ziggy and Jan. I suppose what I am most worried about is not performance per se, but that I am "underpowering" my speakers. The specs read 20-300 watts as the "recomended amplification", but it seems to me that amping of even 75 wpc while still in that spread is obviously bottom third. My worry is that this is needlessly hard on a speaker that I want to last a long time. I think making that clear should answer the seeming contradictions. So when I say this may not be a question of needing more power I mean that I will happily keep the money in my bank acct and/or buy more CDs with it, but not at the expense of driving my speakers too hard. So, if you can tell me with relative confidece that 75w will not stress out my speakers, then I will put a smile on my face and buy some good congac, and put the rest in my Son's RESP... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7690 Registered: May-04 | "So, if you can tell me with relative confidece that 75w will not stress out my speakers ... " I spoke to my cousin Guido, who doesn't want this spread around, if you know what I mean, and I think you do, but he assures me you got nuttin' to worry about. MC, I learned long ago not to provide guarantees to anyone they could not blow up their system. They almost always seemed to take it as a challenge. But, as long as you can achieve the desired amount of volume without clipping the amplifier, you are more than likely in good shape. If the amplifier is driven into clipping on a long term basis, you will blow out a tweeter. It is not a matter of getting into the speaker's upper range of suggested power. You have enough if the sound remains clean and clear at any desired volume level. If you are not able to keep the amplifier clean and under its clipping point, it is more desireable to change out the speakers, in most cases, rather than the amplifier. The speakers place more demands on the amplifier than vice versa. Finding more amplifier friendly speakers is the best route if you are constantly driving the amplifier into clipping. Harder to sneak in on the wife, but more correct in what you will gain. |
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Serniter Unregistered guest | I'm not well versed with the terms here, but would 75 wpc be harder on speakers than 300 wpc? I thought the way to blow a tweeter would be by feeding it more power than it can handle. Is that a wrong assumption? Another thing I was curious about: My receiver says 100 wpc in 5.1 mode but 90 wpc in stereo mode!! |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 102 Registered: Dec-05 | Thanks Jan, I would have no way to sue you anyway! ;-) Can you define "clipping" for me? I understand "distortion" but clipping to me implies shutting down past a certain freq... yes/no/maybe? Sern: Actually it is harder on your speakers to underpower them than vice-versa, this may seem counter-intuitive, but as Jan already pointed out: "[i]t is, however, usually the Xo components themselves (/sp) [inductors, resistors and capacitors] which "suck power"." So I imagine this means it will only take what it needs as long as you remain within the speakers max tolerances. Bottom line: distortion is murder on your speakers. It does strike me as odd as well that you get more power in 5.1 than stereo, it makes absolutely no sense to ME, but maybe a more experienced 'phile can sort you out. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7695 Registered: May-04 | Here's some articles on clipping. http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=amplifier%20clipping Pay particular attention to the first referenced article. Click on "articles index" and you will find a wealth of information. It may be a bit technical for you right now, but bookmark this page and come back to it often. Remember when you read anything that appears to be someone's opinion, it is just that and nothing more. When you read something that is a technical explanation, it could possibly have some validity to it. Or, not. The power issue in 5.1 is a matter of a relatively poor power supply in the receiver which will not deliver full power to all channels when driven hard. It is of little importance other than for that fact alone as the difference between 90 and 100 watts is impossible to distinguish. You can also ignore speakers' "wattage ratings". Speakers have no watts and what it takes to drive them to full volume is a series of items too numerous to mention here. You can blow up a tweeter by feding it more power than it can handle. However, in actual use this is a rare occurence and destroying a tweeter because the amplifier was in serious overdrive (clipping) is the most common cause of tweeter failures. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 67 Registered: Dec-05 | Michael, I highly respect Jan advice and I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for or what your system sounds like now. Just wanted to chime in here a little based on personal experience. I would recommend you "borrow" a receiver/amp with higher wattage and see if your fronts will perform with more depth in stereo mode. In my younger days, I bought a H/K AVR55 (55 WPC) to replace my old Pioneer receiver (150 WPC) on Cerwin Vega D5 speakers. I gained clarity from H/K, but my bass totally disappeared, had to switch back to the Pioneer to drive the 12" bass with authority and have an even soundstage. Not sure what is going on, I guess it was the wattage that the bass needed or the H/K was just a puppy. Not sure if that helps any, but "borrow" a Rotel 1075 or similar amp/receiver and see if your soundfield improve, if that is what you are looking for. Good luck.  |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 849 Registered: Oct-04 | I own the Polk Rti8s with an HK430. To get decent bass response I have to push the volume too high to the point that the highs are overpowering. I've never had clipping and it really isn't an issue since I have a sub in my system. The Rti8s bass is much more accurate than the Polk sub though so being able to use them full range for music would be nice. Is bi-amping the solution to getting more out of these speakers? I don't like the idea because I'd like to have my system's set-up not change between mediums and it sounds like it would be easy to blow the tweeters during HT while bi-amping. Would getting a second amp to power the tweeters be a good option? Seems like a waste... Or would buying a power amp and running the Rti8s be the best solution? I really like the look of the Outlaw Monoblocks. I'm confused because it seems like I'm not running out of power, yet Elderion's post suggests a different receiver delivers more bass. Do I just need to reduce the treble or raise the bass in Eq.? I've always thought Eq. shouldn't be necessary in a quality system. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7698 Registered: May-04 | Hate to say it, Kano, but your post makes no sense. "To get decent bass response I have to push the volume too high to the point that the highs are overpowering." The first problem is I have no idea what you consider "decent bass response". Are we merely talking amount of bass in the room; or is there something else you're trying to achieve? Volume increases evenly over all frequencies, it is not selective in that the amplifier will increase the high frequencies before affecting the lows. If the highs seem to predominate in your system, I would look at either room problems or the speakers' response, or both. Your receiver is not known to be a "bright" sounding amplifier, so you might be hearing some of the sound of your source also. "Is bi-amping the solution to getting more out of these speakers? I don't like the idea because I'd like to have my system's set-up not change between mediums and it sounds like it would be easy to blow the tweeters during HT while bi-amping." No, bi-amping is probably not the solution to what you describe. I don't know why you think HT is any different than music regarding amplifier power distribution, but there is nothing to worry about there. In a bi-amped system, the crossover is placed before the amplifiers and it wil determine how much wattage is required for each section of the bi-amped speaker whether in music or HT mode. Once again, tweeters typically operate with about 10-12 watts when at full volume. Instantaneous peaks will be higher, therefore the amp should have sufficient headroom above those numbers. With a 50 watt amplifier, there should be plenty of power in reserve for most tweeters. "Would getting a second amp to power the tweeters be a good option? Seems like a waste... " Yes, it probably is a waste. The receiver will still be delivering its signal to the power amp and that will determine a substantial amount of the "quality" of sound you finally hear. A separate power amp is typically better built than a receiver, but whether the sound quality improves with the addition of a separate amplifier is another matter. I think you have to have a specific direction in mind for what you are trying to improve before you jump into spending money for a new power amp. Just thinking the sound quality could get better is pretty vague and could leave you wondering why you ditched the HK amplifier. "I'm confused because it seems like I'm not running out of power, yet Elderion's post suggests a different receiver delivers more bass." Connecting the speakers to the amplifier completes a circuit and thus is going to be a different circuit with each amp/speaker combination. How that circuit "sounds" is a matter of several factors. I cannot comment upon Elderion's results, there is no reason the HK couldn't driver a 12" woofer as well as a Pioneer receiver would. The physical size of the woofer has nothing to do with how dificult the speaker will be for an amplifier to drive; and shouldn't affect whether the soundstage is "even". Those comments actually lead me to think Elderion connected the HK out of phase. All amplifiers are not created equally, but just buying a power amp isn't necessarily the answer to all problems. "Do I just need to reduce the treble or raise the bass in Eq.? I've always thought Eq. shouldn't be necessary in a quality system." As I stated earlier, I cannot understand what your problem is from your desciption, so I can't answer this last querry. Your comments would suggest you have room problems and you are possibly hearing a different source and/or speaker sound than you thought you were buying. There is no reason not to include some equalization in a decent system. It just needs to be decent equalization. A $100, 12 band, graphic EQ is not what most people consider "decent". Decent EQ costs lots of money and is meant to do as little as possible. However, if you have room problems, they need to be dealt with using either a passive or active method. Active implies some equalization in most instances. Passive devices are more likely to give better results, if they are done correctly. But they are not as much fun to buy. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 69 Registered: Dec-05 | Kano, I know exactly what you are talking about the H/K not giving enough bass in your RTi8. H/K are just puppies. My best advise is to see if you can borrow a nice amp to run with your H/K preouts from a dealer or friend and see if you bass comes alive in the RTi8. One of my best friend is running his RTi8 on a technic receiver and there are more bass out of those babies than I think are possible for the speaker that size. Best thing to do is test it yourself and see if it makes a difference. I bet you it will. Just curious, but what is the wattage on your subwoofer alone? Good luck! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7701 Registered: May-04 | "H/K are just puppies." As you say, just curious; but what does that imply? |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 103 Registered: Dec-05 | The 8's don't have a woofer, I imagine that will affect how much low freq the can push out...? Yes/no/maybe? I know the specs say 30hz+, but they are asking two drivers to do a lot... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3671 Registered: Mar-05 | MC, what are you using for your sub? Another possible solution that comes to mind is getting a pair of high quality musical subs to handle the bass and running your RTi10s on "small" since bass is what sucks up power the most from any receiver/amp. The Onix UFW-10 is said to be very musical and a pair should run you right around $1K. Of course, this will be a lot harder to hide from the wife, lol. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 850 Registered: Oct-04 | The sub is 200W continuous, 375W peak. I have to have the receiver turned all the way up to start getting any bass from the Rti8s, at which point it's not too bright, just too loud. I think my room is too small to get the low freqs going in the Rti8s. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 71 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan, To answer your question, I was implying that our three H/K models had "puppy power," not enough juicy to drive the speaker's woofers to their potential. I still have my AVR55 driving the Polk R15s in my computer room, and it sounds great. Michael, RTi8's have (2) 6 1/2" mid/woofer combo. We will see if Kano notice a difference if he does try out a different power source. My friend RTi8 bass fills his 12'x16' room without a problem, and he doesn't have a sub. Most music doesn't go past 30hz. Let us know if you decide to try something else. Nothing to lose if you try, right? Well, maybe time and gas. I could be totally wrong, since I haven't heard you guys system, but since advice was asked, I'm giving mine freely. I'm trying out the T-amp and Panasonic SA-XR55 right now, and I can tell you that the bass response is not the same as the Outlaws. I'm planning to give Edster and Art an update in the receiver section when I have listened to them for a few weeks. Good luck and happy listening! |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 104 Registered: Dec-05 | I use the Velodyne DSP 12-B, which I really enjoy. Right now the Polks are set to large and sub/lfe is "both" (fronts and sub) but I will experiment with your idea tonight, Ed! Thanks for your input guys! Jan, thanks for that link, it has given me a great starting point. tell Guido thanks as well... Eld, I don't see how or where I could "borrow" an amp out here (Army can post you to very "BFN" towns... so I would probably have to travel quite the distance to do that! If the opportunity arises I may, but for now I think I will leave well enough alone. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3673 Registered: Mar-05 | MC, if you like the DSP12 then you might consider getting another one if the single one does not provide enough bass. I'd play around with sub positioning first though. Another great enhancer for sub performance is a BFD (Behringer Feedback Destroyer) from partsexpress.com Generally, most people find that their mains' midrange and treble performance opens up a lot when set on "small"---the key is having a good enough subwoofer (or two) that can keep up and fill in the missing bass well enough. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3674 Registered: Mar-05 | Elderion, I'm looking forward to reading your review. I would love to hear the Outlaw gear myself, where in Texas are you? |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 72 Registered: Dec-05 | Hey, Edster I'll drop you an email when I get home. I want to check out the Ascend too. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 73 Registered: Dec-05 | Kano, Regarding your room, my college room was 8' by 10' and the CVs with the Pioneer belch out enough bass that my walls vibrated (not hard to due with that small room). My AVR55 just couldn't get the 12s moving though, but clarity was noticably better. Like I suggested, see if you can borrow a true 125W or more power source to test the RTi8. I know how much bass the RTi8 can belch out under the correct amount of power. It sounds like you are not even close to that threshold. Your sub have plenty of juice driving it, why do you think the designers are doing that? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1486 Registered: Dec-04 | Eld, unless you are truly a 'bass head' I do not see how the avr55 could not drive those 8's. The speakers are the problem, or the listener. The 55 I have has driven 4ohm speakers of all sorts, as well as 4ohm car subs in a box. Maybe bad unit? |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 74 Registered: Dec-05 | Nuck, What is your point? Like I said, what does he have to lose? Well, his H/K and my H/K have the same problem. Maybe your AVR55 is something special. What speakers were you driving at 4 ohms? No protect mode is very interesting. Mine definitely can't do it. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1487 Registered: Dec-04 | I usually run Psb Silver Stratus at full volume. These dip to 2.9(or so), also ran car subs in a box(4ohm), no problems. It is a bit small for the loudest music or rap, but the amp never,ever shut down. I guess just a little hands up for H/K. Now, add the Rotel 985 amp, and whoaa, mama! |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 75 Registered: Dec-05 | Nuck, You are telling my AVR55 is defective for these last 9 years (I know it is not the listener)? Do you want to trade? So the 45 Watts extra in the Rotel made a noticable difference? Same thing I suggesting for the guys, especially if the receiver is defective. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1489 Registered: Dec-04 | Eld, if your 55 cannot drive a low impedence speaker, we must not be talking apples and similar fruit. As I said, my 55 was, and is now, running the Silvers in stereo, with a 4 ohm 200 Century ci in the middle, and Alpha(6ohm) in the back. I have added the Rotel just for fun, and man, what a difference! This cheap, used amp aded so much speed to the H/K at w/pc that the whole thing needed to be rethought. The H/K Rotel match is perfect for me, given the 'hard to drive' Psb's. The Rotel says 190w/ch @ 4ohms, it does more than that. |
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Bronze Member Username: Dan_the_manLondon, Ontario Canada Post Number: 72 Registered: Jun-04 | sounds awesome nuck..what rotel amp do you have? I never had a problem with my HK when i had it, it was only a avr125. Of course i never tried to make my ears bleed either. It drove my axiom m-60's at an ok level until i upgraded, no complaints with hk here. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1499 Registered: Dec-04 | Dan, I have the rb985, bought used from Target hi-fi on Dundas downtown. www.targethifi.com |
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Bronze Member Username: Dan_the_manLondon, Ontario Canada Post Number: 77 Registered: Jun-04 | you bugger you beat me to it! i was looking at it too! lol They have another one for sale in the used list on their website. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1502 Registered: Dec-04 | Dan thats the 976, I have the 985 5 channel, high power one. These guys are good, good store, drop by on a Tuesday, lots of time. Dave(?) owns it, he will find anything you want, and I ain't heard of no rip-offs at all. All the newest Nad too. |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 106 Registered: Dec-05 | Its been a long time since I have walked Dundas... |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 76 Registered: Dec-05 | Just to clarify. I like my H/K a lot, great sounding receiver that is why I still have it around after 9 years. Admittedly, I haven't tested the AVR55 on current 4 ohms speakers like the efficient PSB Stratus and Axiom. The 4 ohms I tested it on were in the 90's and the receiver went in protect mode when I crank the volume about half way on my roommate system. The dealer said this was usual; that most of his customers reported the same thing, and to let the receiver rest for an hour and stick to 8 ohms. It have only seen 8 ohms ever since. Not all 4 ohms are created equal, I guess. I'm not going to try it on the my new Dynaudio. Nuck and Dan, Remember with 4 ohms speakers, your receiver is actually delivering twice the rated power. Kano's and Michael's Polks and my old CVs 8 ohms don't have that luxury. So we are not comparing apples to apples. I did notice that you guys did or currently looking for better power source even on 4 ohms speakers, that is all I'm saying. Not like I have stocks in H/K. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7738 Registered: May-04 | "Remember with 4 ohms speakers, your receiver is actually delivering twice the rated power." A bit of clarification, please. All four Ohm speakers are not created equal and I thought it had been accepted on the forum that some speaker's will have an impedance load which is relatively flat and easy to drive. Other speakers will dip precipitously downward and present the amplifier with an impedance lower than four Ohms while rising to above thirty-something Ohms in the high frequencies or around the crossover. The speakers which doodle around their impedance curve and combine that with a high phase angle will be difficult for any amplifier to drive. It is hardly impedance alone which makes a speaker difficult. To address the actual statement which was made; no, an amplifier is not going to always deliver twice its power into a four Ohm load. The impedance drop demands that more current be delivered to the speaker. And, while current is a portion of the equation to determine wattage, it doesn't always work out that the amplifier will deliver twice the wattage, or "power", into a four Ohm load instead of an eight ohm load. How much "power", in terms of voltage and current is available, is determined by the designer and there are plenty of designers who feel the amplifier performs better when its power supply is heavily regulated. Typically, when a highly regulated ps is employed in an amplifier, the amplifier will often not double its "power" into half the impedance load. It will more likely bring that wattage measurement up to 1.5 or so of the eight ohm rating. The HK's generally run a fairly well regulated ps. None the less, I'm not sure what the comment regarding the CV's not enjoying this luxury has to do with anything. Nominal impedance is as meaningful as on paper peak wattage. |
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Bronze Member Username: Dan_the_manLondon, Ontario Canada Post Number: 78 Registered: Jun-04 | true enough Elderion. More power is usually "gooder". what Cv speakers do/did you have anyways? My first speakers were CV E-208's. They were very easy to drive (without focus or clarity i might add) to high volume without much in the form of power. Good for my early 20's. lol. what an addicting hobby... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1549 Registered: Dec-04 | Very accurate, Jan. As always, 'it looked good on paper' does not always equal out in the listening room. For example, my speakers are likely the most inaccurate of species. The impedance curve is as loose as a goose, and very hard to track, that is why the Rotel amp carries them quite well. As both Jan and Tim have lead me(thanks again), the phase angle limiting factors of my units(in particular) will direct me to the proper power and placement for my speakers. Bottom line, I suppose, is the lower the 'rated' impedance, the better the power is required. I also suppose that the speaker makers count on this, to assure a higher 'quality' power source is used, to make the speaker 'sound' better. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7745 Registered: May-04 | The bottom line is, the lower the actual impedance is against the highest actual impedance and the harder the phase angle, the better the power supply must be. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7746 Registered: May-04 | Gentlemen, always remember, at this point in time, any amplifier is nothing more than a modulated power supply. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1556 Registered: Dec-04 | And bigger is better. Size DOES matter. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 77 Registered: Dec-05 | Hi guys, Agreed. Now lets go back to enjoying our systems. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1559 Registered: Dec-04 | I dig |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1560 Registered: Dec-04 | I dig |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 862 Registered: Oct-04 | I borrowed a Yorkville AP800 power amp from a friend today. (175/400W x 2) The results are excellent. The bass starts to pick up at least 10dB sooner on the volume scale, and elements of the music are more pronounced, although I'll have to listen more to see if it's "the sound" of the amp or the difference in power. I was surprised when I changed the bass mngt back to include the subwoofer, the Rti8s support the inferior sub a lot more even when cut off at 80Hz. The introduction of bass notes is noticably better. How am I going to give this thing back? |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 85 Registered: Dec-05 | Kano, Oh the price of our addiction. At least now you know one area for future improvement. If you are not already doing it, play with that treble/bass gain button on your receiver. This should help you get a more balance bass response until you can upgrade. Happy listening. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 864 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan Vigne - "The first problem is I have no idea what you consider "decent bass response". Are we merely talking amount of bass in the room; or is there something else you're trying to achieve? Volume increases evenly over all frequencies, it is not selective in that the amplifier will increase the high frequencies before affecting the lows. If the highs seem to predominate in your system, I would look at either room problems or the speakers' response, or both. Your receiver is not known to be a "bright" sounding amplifier, so you might be hearing some of the sound of your source also." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't understand how I can have the same level of mid/high range, but added low range after adding a power amp. From your explanation above I would assume the amp would have to start clipping before the balance between the tweeter/woofers is not equal, yet there's just more bass. At levels well below the HK's clipping point, there is more bass coming out of the speakers after hooking them up to the power amp. Please explain. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7788 Registered: May-04 | You seem to be confusing raising the volume equally across al frequencies with all amplifiers being created equal. Amplifiers sound different from one to the next. I don't know what sound you're hearing either, Kano, so I can't say much about the quality. More bass is not always better bass. More anything is not always better than less of something. I will repeat what I often told my clients, when I give you one thing with this piece of equipment, there's a very good likelyhood I'm going to take away something else that you could find in a different piece of equipment. Listen beyond the amount of bass before you decide how difficult the amp will be to give back. Maybe you'll find no other faults, maybe you will. HK receivers are not perfect, but no piece of equipment I've ever come across is. I will tell you I've never worked or been in a shop where the HK receivers were not considered one of the best sounding receiver lines available. Obviously some customers preferred other equipment, but anyone I worked with knew a HK receiver would more than likely give good sound. Take that for what it's worth to you. Maybe the new amplifier is more capable of driving your speakers, I don't know without be able to hear what sound you have. I'm not familiar with the amplifier you say you're borrowing. It sounds, from the name, like a commercial sound reinforcement amplifier. The volume control is simply adjusting the amount of voltage which enters the input section of the amplifier. While there are linear (or audio) taper and log taper pots, the reference there is to how much voltage is allowed through the pot at any one position. A log taper pot will be consistent, incremental changes with each advance of the control, i.e. 1.5 dB for each "click". Log taper pots tend to be run at a higher position than linear taper pots. A linear taper pot allows most of the voltage (volume) increase to happen in the first 50% of the pot's range. However, whether linear or log taper, the vc operates as an all pass system. It is not selective in which frequencies it will pass first or last. Your ears, however, are selective. I don't know what you're hearing so I really can't comment on much other than suggesting that 10dB lower on the volume pot is a substantial margin. That assumes 10dB is actually 10db and not just a difference of ten numbers. (10dB equals ten times the power.) I would be looking at the effects of input sensitivity of the new amplifier vs. the HK's amplifier; and possibly some "loudness curve" effect due to the Fletcher-Munson curves. Otherwise I can only tell you that I would normally expect a different amplifier to sound different. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 94 Registered: Dec-05 | Kano, Maybe this will help. Say for max peformance it takes: 15W for tweeter 35W for mid driver 100W for woofer and they are all in parallel like most speakers. If you feed it 100W and since the drivers are in parallel: Tweeter receives 15W->max performance (fills up first) Mids receives 35W->max performance (fills up second) Woofer receives the remainder 50W->50% (50W/100W) of max performance. So your bass will suffer the most from the lack of sufficient power. This is just a basic example, of course each case is different. Since bass requires a lot of air movement, the woofer will need a lot of power to push the massive volume of air and be in control. I'm sure Tim can explain it much better than I can. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7792 Registered: May-04 | Uh, ... That's not how it works. The crossover doesn't divvy up the wattage that goes to each driver. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7793 Registered: May-04 | And there is no filling up first, second and third. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 95 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan, Not usre what you mean by saying this is not how it works? This is a basic example in laymans term. Don't remember bringing in the crossover into the example. That would be complex. What is the resistor and capacitor in a crossover doing? Gate valves, filters, and storage tanks? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7799 Registered: May-04 | Capacitors = filters when used in a Xo. Same with inductors. There are no "storage tanks" in a speaker's Xo. Capacitors can work as storage devices (in essence, a battery can be described as a capacitor), but that is how they will be used in an amplifier, not a speaker which has to pass voltage on to the drivers as unaltered as possible. Speakers contain no "gate valves" in the way I understand the term. And resistors are simply there, in almost all cases, to reduce the voltage going to a driver. Most tweeters are more efficient by design than most midrange drivers which are more efficient than most woofers. To get all the drivers to play at equal volume, resistors are used to pad the drivers down to the level of the least efficient (usually the woofer) driver. Capacitors and inductors are used to filter frequencies to, or away from, specific drivers. Tweeters utilize less of the wattage due to the natural energy distribution of music. Not because the "speaker" directs the wattage in any particular way. Despite the large transient of a cymbal being struck, it is not comparable to the power (acoustic or electric) which is generated/required when the bas drum is struck. However, the speaker doesn't wait for the signal of the cymbal to reach the tweeter before passing the bass line to the woofer. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 865 Registered: Oct-04 | Here's the amp http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=30&cat=8 It's just generally hard to describe what one hears, especially without the background knowledge of exactly how an amplifier works, etc. This amp seems to open up the speakers quite a bit. After a few days of listening it is especially evident in congested material - where there is a lot of information spread across the high/mid/lows. For how I like to use my system a quality power amp for the fronts looks to be a must. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 96 Registered: Dec-05 | See why I didn't bring in the crossover in the example. Resistor are gate valves by nature because they do determine where the current flows. Enough said, I don't feel like doing a whole class on current flow, Xo's, etc. Hope you got the jist on why your speaker have better bass response with more power, Kano. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7806 Registered: May-04 | Yeah, enough, I think your class would just confuse all of us. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 97 Registered: Dec-05 | I don't think I'm the one who confuse Kano. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 809 Registered: Dec-03 | Woofers need more power because they do more work. Be careful not to confuse the use of R, I and C in AC with their use in DC. In crossovers I and C are filters (I = low pass, C = high pass). R is simply restricting the "pipe" converting some of the power to heat. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 98 Registered: Dec-05 | Thanks, Tim. I knew you can clear this up much better. I agree about restricting the "pipe" or controlling how much current goes down the "pipe". If all pipes were the same size, the gate valve open position would dictate how much water flows down each pipe. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7812 Registered: May-04 | Eld - If I'm correct, you would tell me that a higher powered amplifier will always make my speakers perform better; is that right? |
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New member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 4 Registered: Nov-04 | Well this is the first correct thing you have said all thread. I was surprised that could make that type of general assumption without some long winded and drawn out explanation. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7818 Registered: May-04 | Problem reading more than five words at a time? Rest easy, I have just two for you. |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 99 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan, I'm surprise and perplex with your knowledge and experience why we are not agreeing. 1) Woofers need a lot of power to do their stuff. If they don't have enough power you won't get the work require. 2) Bass is the most "noticable" degradation in performance if you lack sufficient power, because by nature they require the most power. To answer your question. Assuming all else is the same. Overpowering the speaker is not good, so no. Underpowering the speaker is not good either, so no. But if you have enough power for the speaker to draw from to perform at their max level, then yes. Thus it's good to have more power and control it with the variable resistor, right? But since everything is relative, the answer should be maybe. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7821 Registered: May-04 | Well, I don't believe you answered my question. If your final answer is maybe, then Kano should be unable to get the gist of why his speakers sound "different" with the higher powered amplifier. The two answers would appear contradictory. The rest of your post concerning woofers needing more power is pretty vague as to how much "power" is sufficient. It says nothing to how more "power" will affect a speaker's performance. And, I'm afraid I can't agree that bass is the most noticeable area to suffer if you don't have sufficient "power". Obviously underpowering a speaker will lead to clipping, which will destroy tweeters, so I guess we agree on insufficient power being bad. But, if clipping is the problem, buying more amplifier power is literally the least efficient way to resolve the issue. However, I don't know what overpowering a speaker actually means. I have seldom seen a speaker damaged by too much power. Possibly I have seen a speaker damaged by someone who didn't realize how much power they controlled with that "variable resistor". But, if applied wisely, most speakers can handle large amounts of power without damage. All in all, I don't understand your concepts of "power" or a speaker operating at it's "max level". You seem to have much broader terms for what constitutes "power" and how it is used by the speaker than I would or could apply. And, since music is transient in nature, your concept of "max performance", "max level", "fills up first" and "fills up second" still escapes me. I take from that you envision a speaker operating with full RMS voltage at all times, no concern for current, degraded performance at less than "max level" and, regarding the "fills up ... ", well, I don't know how that works in your description. I just don't think of a tweeter "filling up" before power can be sent to any other portion of the speaker. Also, I don't see tweeters operating in the same way woofers do in regards to "power" or their relationship to the amplifier, so the idea that "filling up" one affects the others is nonsensical to me. I'm back to transients and crossovers and I don't see how you can make the case for how a speaker performs without discussing those concepts. I will say I've heard quite a few small wattage amplifiers sound much better than many high wattage units. So maybe we need to clarify more fully what "all else is the same" actually means to make this discussion meaningful. For my part, I have always regarded amplifier lines which sound virtually identical despite the RMS wattage to be more in line with an ideal design. Wattage, at its heart, should be nothing nore than voltage gain; and for decades the concept of "a straight wire with gain" has been a design goal for many of the better amplifiers on the market. As anyone with highly efficient (or even sufficiently efficient) speakers will tell you, "power" is of little value to getting a speaker to it "max performance". As Peter Walker of Quad demonstrated with his current dumping designs and electrostatic panels, the idea of more "power" really just opens the door to all else which should be addressed in an amplifier and speaker. As anyone who owns a 2 watt single ended triode based amplifier will suggest, high power isn't all it's cracked up to be. It is the first watt that counts after all. Don't take this wrong, Eld, but did you learn your ideas about "power" while installing car stereos? |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 100 Registered: Dec-05 | Don't take this wrong, Jan, but that was very long winded. First you pull in crossover, now efficiency and power state, you are such a good fisherman, I will leave you to your fishing. I'm just glad I could help Kano find one of his problem and maybe Michael a little as well. If you did, that is great. After all, isn't that the point of this thread? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7826 Registered: May-04 | That's the point of the forum. I'm sorry get too complicated for someone who would prefer a layman's answer, but I don't think telling someone more power is necessarily going to get them better sound has any value. Crossovers and efficiency cannot be divorced from any discussion of how an amplifier drives a speaker (and vice versa), if that discussion is going to have any relevance to sound quality. If your words have no meaning, then your answer says nothing other than what someone wishes to hear. In this case that would be, buy more power - for whatever reason. Now I have no idea what "power state" is supposed to mean. Likewise, don't take me wrong, but your terms and ideas make no sense. You seem quite certain you are correct while you say nothing. My opinion would be you've done more disservice than help if you leave the discussion at no more than buy "power" so you can "fill up" your speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7827 Registered: May-04 | Eld - Maybe it would help if you told us what meaning you apply to "power" and now "power state". |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1489 Registered: Feb-04 | Last night, I was listening to Norah Jones louder than usual. I must have been up to 0.05W per channel or so. Elderion, Would I benefit from a more powerful amp? If speakers need a nominal power input for the bass to sound good, wouldn't that mean we could only ever listen at one volume level? (Too loud!) |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 870 Registered: Oct-04 | Listening to Kruder Dorfmeister Disc 2 right now as I write this post. The volume level is set to -30, the source is the Denon 2910 through the 6 ch direct connection. The towers are still crossed over to the sub at 80Hz. The bass is accurate, complete, and absolutely effortless coming from the towers. Before adding the power amp the bass was absolutely non-existant at this volume level. The discussion centers around the HK running out of power, but at -30 I highly doubt this was happening. I'm very happy with the results, my one note bass has blossomed into musical performance I can really enjoy, but I am still confused with how the difference relates to power output. |
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New member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 5 Registered: Nov-04 | "Maybe this will help. Say for max performance it takes: 15W for tweeter 35W for mid driver 100W for woofer and they are all in parallel like most speakers. If you feed it 100W and since the drivers are in parallel: Tweeter receives 15W->max performance (fills up first) Mids receives 35W->max performance (fills up second) Woofer receives the remainder 50W->50% (50W/100W) of max performance. So your bass will suffer the most from the lack of sufficient power. This is just a basic example, of course each case is different. Since bass requires a lot of air movement, the woofer will need a lot of power to push the massive volume of air and be in control. " The basic idea is correct and that is possibly the problem. The fact that you added in "fills up first etc." was unfortunate. The ideas we are talking about operate on twp different levels, micro; the component values inside the crossover, the ohms of the drivers, as being there basic characteristics, not including basket design and material, cone structure and material, windings of the voice coils, magnet structure, design frequency response and of course the most important factor the miss-handling by the UPS couriers. Micro and more micro, then of course we get into the more macro, what the loudspeakers have been design to reflect in the way the company and or designers want there systems to sound like and some such. What I am trying to point out is there infinite possibilities, and Jan needs to focus a bit more. No more reference to triodes, class A or H, negative feedback, or other design characteristics of amplifiers unless to educate not be little. We are talking about a standard class A/B amp, the H/K most likely does not use a toroidal power supply, versus the PA amp with a toroidal power supply, but the designs will sound very similar. The differences are very small when you talk about difference in sounds, the home amp will be optimized for a low noise floor, voltage considerations, and the ability of the power supply to feed the amp and all the other circuitry in there. The PA amp is only design to deliver large amount of Watts (volts x amps) in to the given load presented. It is not meant to be beautiful, have fancy shielding, or other fancy items, which means you can have some hum from a bad ground, 60hz fluorescent light noise, coax cable line noise, most likely the worst in most homes. But it will deliver the goods time after time, that is what they are designed to do. That is enough for now or I will end up being like Jan! There are much worse things than that though. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1490 Registered: Feb-04 | Likely doesn't, directly. It's likely that your speakers present a difficult load, as Jan suggested. One of the upgrades I am considering for my speakers is an aftermarket crossover. There are a few designs for my speakers that present a constant resistive 8-ohm load across the frequency spectrum. In addition to being a better design that is said to sound better, it makes the amplifier sound better because of the easy load. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7831 Registered: May-04 | TMO - Don't worry about sounding "like" me, your answer is far too skewered in its logic to ever hope for the comparison. If I get your post correctly, you're laying the additional bass content from Kano's PA amp on the higher noise floor of the PA amp?! Or, the "voltage considerations" of the HK? What does the basket design and material have to do with how the amplifier and speaker work together? You are truly wallowing in the microcosm of speaker design to suggest the basket material influences how power changes a speaker's performance. To be honest, you lost me when you said Eld's example was basically correct, because half of it is wrong and the other half is inconsequential or misinterpreted. I did like the two levels though; "micro" and "more micro" and then "macro". And, the "infinite possibilities" really narrows down the discussion. So I'm once again left with no idea what I'm supposed to "focus" on. Despite TMO's trying to stir up some trouble here, I'm not trying to belittle anyone. But this forum is meant to educate and inform. In that respect bringing efficient speakers and triode amplifiers into the discussion certainly fits the discussion of power and speaker performance to a "T". Kano, at the moment I would actually put most of what you are hearing on the new amp's transformer and power supply. Not because the transformer is toroidal in shape, but because it more than likely has a much higher amperage rating than the one employed in the HK. Current is what does the work when an amplifier meets a difficult speaker load. Otherwise a fairly simple load and efficient speaker such as Peter's Klipschorns are voltage operated devices. The K-horns don't care much whetehr you have 0.05 amps or 100 since they were designed when a 3 amp current delivery was enormous. The Polks, however, love current. More current available on demand will give any amplifier the ability to control the woofer more completely when, as we have found on the forum, the RTi8's dip down beneath 4 Ohms. The PA amp weighs 31 lbs. That's probably more than the HK receiver and the Yorkville amp appears to have a substantial power supply. That, and its resultant ability to deliver current, will be the most important factor in how the amplifier deals with difficult loads. In this case, I would say the difference is largely along the lines of a receiver vs. a separate amplifier rather than just more "power" being available. You indicate you were not driving the HK into clipping so neither amplifier is needing more "power" to get the job done. However, I'm still curious about this 10dB difference on the volume control. That is a large amount. Is the actual volume level the same at -30, or is the new amplifier playing louder overall at that level set? Did anything else change in the system other than the addition of the amplifier? You mentioned something about changing bass management. Is it possible the speakers were wired out of phase when the HK was in the system? Either by your mistake or HK's? |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 101 Registered: Dec-05 | Does it matter what the gross power is doing upstream (crossover, efficiency, resistor, filters, etc.)? If there is an X amount of work require of the speaker. In order to do that work, it must have a NET amount of require power to do it, right? We are not talking about amplifier or crossover design, just the basic. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7835 Registered: May-04 | HUH? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1491 Registered: Feb-04 | Elderion, Why X amount of work all the time? How come I get balanced sound using only 0.05W and can shake the house with 100W ? The idea what woofer need a minimum to sound normal is silly, if you ask me. I listen to some stuff at 80 dB, other stuff at 90 dB and other stuff at 110 dB and beyond. Whatever I find suited to the instruments being played. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7836 Registered: May-04 | What does that mean? Gross power? Upstream of what? "A net amount of require power"? Basic what? Unless there is no crossover in a speaker, the amplifier must deal with the effects of the crossover and the drivers as they are connected into one unit. We cannot easily separate those pieces out of the equation. It is safe to say a driver has no significant capacitance for the amplifier to deal with. But the crossover does and that's where the amplifier can begin to get into trouble. |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 102 Registered: Dec-05 | Peter, I hope you know X was variable? |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 103 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan, I was refering to the basic law of physics. If you need to move a certain amount of air mass a certain distance in a certain time, you know, work and power? |
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New member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 6 Registered: Nov-04 | I have an abbreviation, I am soo proud! Well the point of my post was taken and used appropriately. Modern speaker design has many variables and the ability of a basket design to absorb and dissipate heat, flex, (very crucial) even the air movement is taken into consideration in some designs. Also of course the material used and the type of construction are even greater factors. And yes this does contribute to the way a speaker will handle power, and how much power it is meant to use. Jan, I think what you finally said was what Kano was looking to hear. I am grateful that you realized that I was not using the noise floor difference in the design as a statement of bass response. These are just different areas of design that make them suitable for your application or not. I think Kano does not actually means a 10db difference. I think he is using a dial reference, which of course we know is a very idiotic point of reference, because we do not know if it is using a log taper or linear taper pot! I would like to know what Peter is using, piece-by-piece. Your external crossover will need to be researched if you what to redesign it or perhaps you are looking at better parts? Or perhaps you are thinking of using a electronic crossover? |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 871 Registered: Oct-04 | "You indicate you were not driving the HK into clipping so neither amplifier is needing more "power" to get the job done. However, I'm still curious about this 10dB difference on the volume control. That is a large amount. Is the actual volume level the same at -30, or is the new amplifier playing louder overall at that level set? Did anything else change in the system other than the addition of the amplifier? You mentioned something about changing bass management. Is it possible the speakers were wired out of phase when the HK was in the system? Either by your mistake or HK's? " ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is what I did. I installed the power amp into the system, I adjusted the speaker level for the fronts down three dB with an SPL meter to match the rest of the system, then I went into the 2910's setup and put the full signal to the fronts to get a better idea if a difference was present. When I put the bass management BACK to what it was before I was then surprised with the amount of bass coming from the fronts even cut off at 80Hz. The fronts were not out of phase as I calibrated with the Avia test disc and compared in/out of phase through the set-up. The referemce to 10dB difference in power was not a good one, as it only describes the volume scale. What I was trying to descibe was that the bass response was much improved at a lower volume with the power amp. I would start getting good bass response with the volume set to -10dB on the HK. Now the bass response is even no matter what the volume scale is set to. Same treble/midrange at either setting, just much more bass, especially at lower volumes. It is easy to understand how the power amp can drive these speakers better at close to reference level, what is difficult for me to understand is why there is so much bass at low volume levels now with the power amp. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1492 Registered: Feb-04 | I would like to know what Peter is using, piece-by-piece. Your external crossover will need to be researched if you what to redesign it or perhaps you are looking at better parts? Or perhaps you are thinking of using a electronic crossover? The Mortal One, Yeah, I know I can't just pick up a crossover off the shelf at a corner store and expect it to work. I am considering installing ALK Universal A crossovers in Klipschorns: http://www.alkeng.com/ap_xo.html I refreshed the caps in the stock AA crossovers last years (using Solen and Auricap caps) and was very pleased at the result. And just yesterday I installed Klipsch K77 compatible aftermarket tweeters that use the Eminence APT-50 and a custom horn lens. Cymbals sound fantastic. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7840 Registered: May-04 | I'm going to stick with my power supply answer for now. That is typically what contributes the most to the sound quality when driving difficult loads. But your giving me the impression this is a substantial change and that is still somewhat difficult to reconcile. I would be interested in your impressions if you just go back to the HK for a while with nothing else changed. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7841 Registered: May-04 | TMO - Yes, you have made it to the big time. An abbreviation to call your very own! Call your mother to tell her the good news. You're still confusing me with talk of the speaker basket. The speakers haven't changed in this instance. So what's your point? |
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New member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 7 Registered: Nov-04 | I phoned my mommy and she was soo pleased that I had a friend! I was making a badly misplaced quip about the speaker basket thing. And you are quite right the spearkers have not changed. The load that both amps will see are exactly the same. Perhaps the new H/K amplifiers are designed to drive large speakers but there is a limit to every design. Even for most quality amps out there, not including the 1000+ dollar range, driving a load below 4ohms is quite hard. |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 104 Registered: Dec-05 | The Mortal One, thanks for bringing some sense into this thread. I think you realized I was refering to net power from the get go, because to do so otherwise is impossible. The reason why I didn't understand Jan inclusion of crossover and efficiency and different speaker types. Actually, I thought Jan was trying to trip me up. Also to clarify my example, when I said fill order, it was meant for Kano to understand the basic intrinsic resistance of each driver, so you are right about the micro. I should not have said "fill," but that is my hydraulic background talking. I think Tim picked this up easily. I don't know why Jan thought I was a car stereo installer or why I can't phase my speaker correctly, maybe it was because of my bad typing. Happy listening all. |
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New member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 8 Registered: Nov-04 | Peter, I am very impressed with your speakers, and those are some serious tweaks you have done to those! I have used sonicaps and musicaps before and find them the best "value" cost wise for improvements vs. the "oil cans" or more expensive types. Those are some serious crossovers, and the layouts are beautiful. If I had the ability, I would try those out. Are all your mods DIY? I have done a few tweaks in my time and do find some nice improvements also. What type of amp are you using? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7845 Registered: May-04 | Gentlemen - It might be a good idea to tell us what your backgrounds are. You both have a viewpoint which indicates a knowledge of electronics (at least in its similarities to water flow Eld, which is more like DC than AC). TMO, your micro world is going to require explanation so I can relate to how you view things. Eld, the problem I still see with your "tank" analogy is the drivers are reacting as AC motors and therefore require power on demand. The drivers and the crossover have no storage capacity and such a situation would present obvious difficulties in a speaker. However, as motors, they are generating power back out to the amplifier which the outputs of the amp have to deal with in some way. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1493 Registered: Feb-04 | Are all your mods DIY? Don't give me too much credit. The only mods so far are: 1- Buying lengths of pipe insulation and a swimming-pool spagetti foat, and cutting them to fit to properly seal the bass bin horns to the corner walls. 2- Swapping a K43 and a K33 woofer between a Klipschorn and a La Scala. The La Scala bass bin access was somewhat difficult. 2- Replacing the 25 year-old ones on the crossover with new Solen and Auricap caps of the same values. 3- Buying aftermarket tweeters and using a rotary tool on the underside of the top to make room for it. Had to remove the speaker top plates to do this. Next up will be new DIY crossover kits. So I haven't done any designing of any kind. I also have the willingness to open up the speakers and tinker a bit, that's all. |
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New member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 9 Registered: Nov-04 | Well by background? A question I have problems with even on my resume. I have been tinkering my stereos, home and car for a long time. Have some electronics and electrical schooling, and have some years of CAD work under my belt. I am no engineer, and my IQ is far below the standard of most people. But I enjoy both Miles Davis and Nine Inch Nails. Most of the mods that I have been pursuing lately have been to compensate for the cheap construction in consumer equipment. I have found some very interesting results in cabinet bracing. A whole field of expertise I can barley understand. I have built a few speakers in my time, nothing exceptional. I am like you Peter I do not mind opening up the boxes. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7848 Registered: May-04 | Take this for what it is worth. When I applied for various jobs as a sound technician, I felt one of my better assests was to know when to get my hands out of a piece of equipment. |
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New member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 10 Registered: Nov-04 | That is a very true statement. You always need to realize when it is best to leave well enough alone. I do find it fun to take a peak at the insides, call me voyeuristic. But I do find there are my compromises in modern speaker design. And any designer will tell you that. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1587 Registered: Dec-04 | I meself have lots of experience in a technical field, dealing with electronics, electrical, mechanical(millwright) and very importantly, customer relations and satisfaction(thats the experience part). I travel North America and Mexico, installing, troubleshooting and training on multi-million $ machines. Then I come home for a weekend and frik up my stereo. DOH! Ain't nobody does it all... |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 107 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan, In case of AC circuit, I see the amp as the "tank" or a pump that produce a certain pressure head or potential energy, depends on how you look at it. Although water and electricity have similar qualities, each components are not exactly parallel, the components relationship must be define for AC or DC flow. I use water to describe things, because most people can visualize water much better than electricity. If you add a complex dam to your water system and have open channel flow, you will be surprise how close water flow is to electricity, even in AC mode. I hate to do AC calculations, imaginary numbers or phasor angles are a pain, I think everyone can agree on that one. I like dealing in Vrms and Irms, if I can. To Kano: To help you understand why your bass is performing better at lower volume, let me put it in hydraulic terms. If you add potential energy to your system (the higher power amp), your overall system performance will increase through the volume range up to a certain point. Much like the water pipes in your house. For this example, say potential energy = water pressure. If you have "high" water pressure at the end of your pipe, when you open your sink faucet even slightly, you will get a spray of water at a good velocity. If you had "low" water pressure at the end of your pipe. All you might get is a trickle of water flow with barely any velocity (even with the faucet fully open). Of course too much energy can be bad as well, especially on the crossover. There is a lot more stuff going on, but basicaly with more potential energy upstream, you will get more potential energy at the speaker when it is needed for a given time, even, at low volume. Background: someone who likes chess, enjoy wine, lives musuc and know just a little about energy to get in trouble, and works as a hydraulic engineer on the side. |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 108 Registered: Dec-05 | And someone who still can't type, especially by the light of the monitor. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 14 Registered: Nov-04 | Well I am way outclassed. But the analogy I like. And is quite true. Most amp designers and not concerned with the first watt as Jan put it. There is massive divergence in amp design, like the necessity of current flow, power regulation and the like. Kano is also hearing an amp that can double its power given the load. The drivers have a different impedance depending of the frequency they are trying to reproduce. And so a less regulated power supply will not "choke" at the load presented, it will be better able to handle the variance in the impedance curve. Therefore more able to deliver the current when necessary. This is of course a terrible explanation put until Jan gets here this is the best I can do to make it clear. Of and by the way crossovers are also used a to compensate for the know problem with the drivers, in compensation networks. There are many different aspects to speaker design. One of the biggest problems is they are an inherently inefficient and will never give a truly accurate reproduction. And I have no typing or grammatical skills. But I think you all figured this out all ready. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 873 Registered: Oct-04 | After more comparitive listening, I'm now going to leave the subwoofer off for all music playback. The towers have such fast accurate bass the sub just messes it all up. Louder, yes, but I'm not a bass nut and the bass out of the Rti8s is plenty. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- " I would be interested in your impressions if you just go back to the HK for a while with nothing else changed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- I've listened through the HK430 for over 2 years straight now. HT was fine, but music just lacked punch through the towers. The volume scale had to be near reference level to get any bass from the Rti8s, now I can turn the volume down to nothing and hear the bass pick up evenly with the treble and midrange as I raise the volume. Maybe the HK is just a "puppy," maybe the Rti8s dip down to 4 Ohms and the HK could handle it, but not make them punch. TMO's observation that the Yorkville can power 4 Ohms so well seems quite reasonable. Nevertheless I'm glad this thread pointing me in the direction of a quality power amp, and I apologize to Michael Cameron if the thread turned in a direction that didn't help you, but I'd definitely suggest a power amp for those Rti10s, they need it more than my 8's. I'm loving it. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7932 Registered: May-04 | To get a fairly good explanation of what can affect the bass response of an amplifier when paired with a dificult speaker, you might want to read this entry; Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 11:02 pm, on this thread; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/207532.html. Scan down to the discussion of solid state amplifiers. |
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