Biwiring VS Better cable
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New member Username: MnfvPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-05 | Hi, I would like to give my testimonial about my experience in biwiring. I've a NAD 320BEE, a CD Player NAD 521 and speakers Wharfedale 70th anniversary. Recently I bought Chord Carnival Silver Plus cables, biwire configuration. While I was waiting for the cable the shop lend me Chord Rumour cables. I used to have Chord Carnival Silver Plus, normal configuration. And my veridict was... with biwiring i've noticed that the bass and the treble somehow improved (it's like it plays louder, and more defined) but with the Rumour Cables the sound really improved in detail. Now I can't sleep thinking in get one of those Rumour Cables without biwiring... I hope i helped someone csoosing its cables, and i would like to hear more opinions. Bye |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 620 Registered: Feb-05 | you are much better off with better cables than using inferior cabes to bi-wire |
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Anonymous | You also have to take into account the effect of removing those gold plated jumper bars has had on the sound. |
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Bronze Member Username: Dfantom32Irvine, CA USA Post Number: 17 Registered: Feb-06 | Excuse me Guys but lucky for me that there's a thread on this bi-wiring stuff. Marco, What do you mean bi-wire and normal configuration? Sorry for my ignorance on this...but I do know once you use better cable you will get a better sound unless I'm wrong on this.   Marco & Gavin, What is the advantage of bi-wire compare to non-bi-wire? How would you know if the speaker is bi-wire? |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 632 Registered: Feb-05 | if the speaker is "bi wire capable" it will have two sets of binding posts in the back of it where you attatch your speaker wire. This is NOT to confuse it with speakers that say "bi AMP ready" some speakers are both able to be bi wired AND bi amped, others are NOT. This usually only applies to ultra high end speakers and professional speakers where one amp powers the woofer, another amp powers the tweeter, and an ELECTRONIC crossover is used. For all intents and purposes, the speakers that have 2 sets of binding posts that most people come across will say "biwire / biamp ready" biamp means using two amps, and there is an advantage to this, because it frees up one of the amps in a multi way speaker for vocals and the highs, while the other focuses on the bass. That way, the amp(s) work less hard. biwire simply means running two sets of wire from the same amp (or reciever) to the two different speaker posts of the back of the speaker. Now, being that the signal from both of the cables is comming from the same amp, many people do NOT feel that you really get an improvement in the sound, and what you in fact "hear" is jumper (little metal piece between the posts) being replaced with speaker wire. so, your best bet is to replace the jumper with a piece of your speaker wire and see what happens. You might hear an improvement if you have decent speaker cables. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 943 Registered: May-05 | Marco - Please explain how you bi-wired with a NAD 320BEE? Since it only has one set of speaker outputs, this is impossible. If you're doing something odd, you can damage your equipment. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 289 Registered: Nov-05 | Stu, many people bi-wire from only one set of speaker outputs. I have two sets on the C272,but have biwired the mains from one set of outputs on my Marantz receiver in the past. |
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Bronze Member Username: Dfantom32Irvine, CA USA Post Number: 18 Registered: Feb-06 | Gavin, Thanks for your info on bi-wire and also on bi-amp. :D |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 946 Registered: May-05 | MyRantz - How? As far as I know, bi-wiring is when you connect speaker output A to one set of posts, and B to the other. Are you splitting the wire right before the speaker binding posts? Sorry if I'm a little slow. They don't call me Stu Pitt for nothing. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 296 Registered: Nov-05 | Stu, As far as I know each set of wires for high and low frequencies can be attached to each single left and right set of posts if there is no A and B speaker connections. I don't see why not - A & B speakers are not for high and low frequencies but hey, I might be the slow one :-) |
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New member Username: MnfvPost Number: 7 Registered: Mar-05 | Biwire configuration means that the cable has 4 cables instead of 2 (you pay the double). The NAD320BEE has only one set of speaker outputs, so you must join in pairs the four cables in the amp side. Maybe Gavin and anonymous are right and the improvement i've noticed comes from the removal of the gold plated bar i've removed (you must remove it, unless you want to BURN your amp). Here are 2 fine articles about this matter: http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=60&newssectionID=3 http://members.tripod.com/~tsc/biwire.htm |
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New member Username: MnfvPost Number: 8 Registered: Mar-05 | Sorry, the cable I loved is the Chord Odissey, not the Rumour. See 2. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1440 Registered: Dec-04 | Further, Frank Abela suggested to me to remove the binding strips and introduce the + line to the high post and the - line to the bass post. This configuration, he suggested may produce a noticeable difference, or none at all,he said. While swapping the strips for wire made a huge difference for me, the offset of the wires also made a difference in performance, one which I could actually measure in cone excursion, without 'bottoming' the bass drivers. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 844 Registered: Dec-03 | The only thing bi-wiring does is increase the effective diameter of the speaker wire. If you have a very long connection or incredibly thin wire there might be an improvement. But I have never heard an improvement when bi-wiring speakers with good 14 gauge or better wire in a 10-20 foot run on reasonable speakers. Bi-amping is potentially another story, but I would recommend just getting any good 12-14 gauge wire for runs under 20 feet. In bi-wiring the same amp channel is being used for both wires--hence, you can put 2 wires or 20 wires connecting the speaker to the amp and the same power and information will go to the speaker no matter what. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 85 Registered: May-05 | "The only thing bi-wiring does is increase the effective diameter of the speaker wire" I'm inclined to agree. The real benefit is eliminating the jumper bars, which can be done without bi-wiring (make your own #12 wire jumpers). |
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Bronze Member Username: Armyscout42DUGWAY , UTAH USA Post Number: 29 Registered: Sep-04 | i have bi wired, bi amped and it really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. bi-wiring do a whole lot to my system of mangepan's, srslabs, eminent technology, acoustat and ohm's. i agree with the better grade cables. If improving the quality is what you are after like tigher bass, cleaner highs and less fatiguing, i urge you guys invest on some dakiom feedback stabilizers at www.dakiom.com it's worth the inexpensive tweak. i believe there is another tweak that was posted here that maybe even older that i was looking at that was similar that was doing similar type of a tweak. it's in one of the questions one of the members posted. www.dakiom.com after reading much about it and finally obtaining it and experimenting with it, it made a disciple out of me and i had to tell that to the owner who talked to me personally. I can't afford no $500 cardass cables or bi wires so i'd rather spend something like that on sound processors and stabilizers. If i had a martin logan statement or wislon puppy etc or von schweikert than yup, i would bi amp and bi wire. in fact i'm doing with my acoustat spectra 33...bi amp not bi wire. i only bi wired to experiment and didn't really hear much sound improvement. all my improvements were from processors and the dakioms. i hope this help some of you...if you criticize, please have some experience, it wouldn't be fair just like the bose controversy. You have to own and live with the 901's to effectively hate it if you are a critic or to love it if you are a bose lover. the same goes for tweaks, bi wires and bi amping. they are merely options of supposed improvement. some people don't want improvements or any additional muster. they like it the way they have it set up, can't blame them for whatever makes them happy. you can't really trash someone who just wants to listen to lawrence welk anymore than the person who just wants to listen to ozzie ozbourne. half of the time i can't understand him. too much bat biting and glad he made it to the hall of fame, well deserved for his band. I'm a jazz, acoustical, instrumental and old school guy myself but i love many music that's why i defend the high end world so much in their passion to always design art and improve sound. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 867 Registered: Dec-03 | Seeing as the signal still has to go through the passive crossover for the speaker to operate properly, of what possible benefit is it to bi-wire? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7891 Registered: May-04 | Crimminetly to all high heaven, Greg! Didn't you pay any attention to what I posted on this thread; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/207532.html ? Did you think reposting your incorrect idea here would be something I wouldn't read? I mean, this is ridiculous, Greg. Are you just that stubborn that you won't put your ideas where we were debating your illogical and misconceived conclusions? Or, that you just keep repeating the same question but won't accept an answer? Read what I posted on that thread, Gregory, and you'll possibly get a glimmer of a thought that doesn't come from the "I don't want to think I can hear the difference camp". Really, guy, this is a bit much, even for you. I am very disappointed you can't figure out a way to say you were wrong, or offer a logical debate, about speakers with low impedance and dippy, peaky curves possibly benefitting from bi-wiring. Or, that bi-wiring can't work with only one amplifier but it can if the system is bi-amped. Or, that you can't bi-amp a speaker without disconnecting the internal crossover. Greg, what's the problem here? You just say, "Sorry, I was wrong and I see your point." |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1666 Registered: Dec-04 | I love seeing Jan getting in such a tizzy. Keep it up Gregory. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1257 Registered: Sep-04 | Please, no. I was rather hoping the mood in this thread would be a little less vituperative. I am not an advocate of biwiring, but I do know of circumstances where biwiring does seem to provide bigger gains than one would expect. Speakers which are truly designed to be be biwired do not have the same crossover design as those designed for single-wiring. A singlewired speaker has a crossover. A biwired speaker can use notch filters instead. This is a pretty basic difference in design. The effectiveness of this is dependant on the choices the designer makes in the design of the speaker. Some are more marked than others. In my view, a single run of better wire usually gives a better result than biwiring because you are eliminating the problems of the inferior wire. That said, there are exceptions. One of the things which is an almost universal truth though is this: the links placed between the biwire terminals on most speakers - even some expensive speakers - are rubbish! Replace them with good quality snips of cable (or even snips of your speaker cable) and you will gain benefits which will probably surprise you. I've done this on speakers up to £3000 with good results. You'll note that I don't really offer any technical reasons why biwiring should outperform single-wiring or vice versa. The fact is there's very little science behind biwiring. It's just something that was observed in the 90's when biampable speakers happened to be wired up with two runs of wire from the same amp. Another thing that is almost never mentioned is what happens when you biwire with different sets of wire. It's unusual, but it is possible. After all, it's known that the best conductor of high frequencies is silver and the best conductor for low frequencies is copper (don't ask me why - I'm no metallurgist). Therefore biwiring a 2-way speaker should have silver to the treble unit and copper to the midrange/bass unit. Then again, high frequencies travel on the surface of wires whereas low frequencies travel through the centre of the wire. That's one reason why silver plated copper seems to work so well, and yet many turn out a bit bright. Me? I still think that generally, if you spend the money on a better overall quality of cable, you lose the worse bits of the worse cable and gain overall. Most of these odd combinations of cable (biwiring, multi-material etc) introduce phase problems which affect the timing which I don't like. Marco, Carnival Silver Plus is an excellent cable for the money - and it's a pig for a dealer to make up (trust me - I have the desensitised fingers to prove it)! Odyssey leaves it for dead in terms of resolution, frequency extremes and timing. Odyssey is really not cheap but it is very effective. Now here's a strange one for you. Odyssey biwire comes in a biggersheath but is essentially 4 runs of the same wire. If you wire it up in single-wired mode so just 2 connections at each end, it is much better than single-wired Odyssey. But then a single run of Townshend Isolda DCT will leave both Odysseys for dead by opening up the soundscape, introducing far more resolution again, improving timing immeasurably etc etc. Townshend single wired is half again the price of the biwired Odyssey...! It never ends. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1674 Registered: Dec-04 | Firstly, Frank gets the 'word of the week award', for vitupritive. I looked it up, and Frank wins. Now we need Frank here on the first Saturday of the month. Darn time zones. Frank has more experience with cables than I do women, and I trust his ear as much as I trust my dog(a lot). I just cannot hear the difference in interconnects. If that's my limit, it is cheaper for me. Thanks, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7921 Registered: May-04 | "A singlewired speaker has a crossover. A biwired speaker can use notch filters instead." Sorry, Frank, this doesn't compute. "Crossover" is merely shorthand for two filters with over-lapping ends, a high pass filter and a low pass filter. Put them together with a "crosover (point)" at 2500 Hz and there will be a roll off of frequencies above 2.5kHz and a rolloff of frequencies below 2.5kHz. "Crossover" denotes an action more than an item. If there is only one component in the speaker, a tweeter with a single cap on it, it is still generically referred to as a "crossover". While some designers may rely heavily on the mechanical roll off which a speaker will naurally display, this is not proprietary to either a single or bi-wire design. Those hp/lp filters are still incorporated into a bi-wired system and the action of the filters hasn't changed due to the number of conductors used from the amplifier's end. First, second, third or fourth order electrical filters still exist in bi-wired speakers just as they do in single wired, bi-amped or tri-amped systems. There are simply no shared signal/ground paths between the amplifier outputs and returns. So, to think that a bi-wired speaker has no "crossover", or uses a different filter design, just because it is bi-wired doesn't make any sense to me. The same applies to bi-wired speakers using notch filters. Maybe you and I mean something different by the term "notch filter". To me it implies a (usually fairly simple) network meant to compensate for a (hopefully) small irregularity in a driver's response. For example, the crossover to a high frequency driver might be at 2500Hz while using a driver that has a high Q +3dB peak centered around 5kHz. A notch filter might be used to reduce that peak in the middle of the driver's response. There is nothing else for a notch filter to do. It is not designed as a "roll off" type filter; if so, it would be a high or low pass filter, not a notch filter. A full range, single driver system such as several of the Fostex designs will often have a notch/correction filter to bring down a rising frequency response around 7kHz (or a baffle step compensation network to adjust for enclosure design). All the while the Fostex design still employs no "crossover" of any type. I can see no reason for a notch filter or any type of compensation filter to be employed merely because the speaker is bi-wired. To give a contradictory example to your idea, Jim Thiel is well known for his complex, multi-element crossovers which make extensive use of frequency shaping notch/correction filters. However, Thiel prefers his speakers be single wired and provides no capacity for any other connection method. I have seen many single wire designs which utilize notch filters or compensation filters (my 15 Ohm LS3/5a's have a few, as a matter of fact, yet are of the single wire variety); therefore I would have to argue that notch filters hardly seem a requisite nor a defining design feature of a bi-wired speaker. This sounds a bit like factory rep BS you have been fed. If you would, please, give an explanation for why you think "crossovers" and "notch filters" are the defining elements between choosing a cabling method. Additionally, you might want to look at the discussion of bi-wiring's technical merits on the thread which I linked above. (https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/207532.html) With this information in mind, how can bi-wiring impose any affect on phase? Bi-wiring adds no components which would result in additional phase shift. Broadly described, bi-wiring merely adds another two conductors from the amplifier to the speaker. You have merely separated the signal paths and returns for the low and high frequency sections of the speaker and run separate conductors to the input/return of each filter. If the filter is a first order type at 2500 Hz, there will be the same number of caps and coils no matter whether the speaker is run single or bi-wire. This is how the signal is manipulated after it arrives at the inputs of the filter, not how many conductors get the signal to the filter. If there are the same number of capacitors and inductors in the filters before bi-wiring as there are after, how can phase be shifted? Lousy cables? Maybe, but that's not an inherent problem of bi-wiring. That's the side effect of a poor choice in cables. Something that can be accomplished in a single wire system also. Less room for error with a single wire? Possibly, but also at least a 50/50 chance of getting it right with bi-wire as opposed to totally wrong with a single wire. If the number of caps and coils in the filters remain the same with the jumper or without the jumper, how could using the jumper compensate for the inherent phase shift? How could removing it cause additional phase shift? You and Nuck seem to have introduced some ideas which don't quite make the most sense to me. I'd appreciate some assistance here. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7922 Registered: May-04 | "Then again, high frequencies travel on the surface of wires whereas low frequencies travel through the centre of the wire." I wish you hadn't posted that. It will only invite all the "anti-skin effect" junkies to get all crazy over nothing. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1684 Registered: Dec-04 | What parts do not make sense to you, Jan? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1685 Registered: Dec-04 | That I said. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 456 Registered: Oct-04 | STOP THE MADNESS! http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm Buy this cable http://www.av-outlet.com/images/liberty/12-2C-EX.pdf ...and send the savings to feed the children. |
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Bronze Member Username: Armyscout42DUGWAY , UTAH USA Post Number: 34 Registered: Sep-04 | according to the experts sharing information on this subject on bi-wiring, for those considering bi-wiring and based on their recommendation, i do not think it would be a wise idea to bi-wire if you don't have enough technical knowledge on the subject and should consult either the experts here or call the manufacturer of your loudspeaker. From what i am comprehending, different loudspeaker designers design their speakers that's best suited for either single, bi-wire or bi amp. Sometimes in the passion of always trying to improve, once can make a mistake by doing someting in their system it's not designed for. In this case, it's the debate over bi-wiring. I think it all depends on what type of system you have, what you want to acheive and what suits your needs. I wouldn't make any set up if i was unknowledgable about a certain subject, but rather it would be wise to consult those who are knowledgeable and experienced in the subject, in this case: bi-wiring! many thanks for the technical and experienced information of mr. vigne and mr. abela! good discussion on this particular subject. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1686 Registered: Dec-04 | Erc, the posts are there to be use, as advertised. Hook em up and find out. We don't need a ref to figgure out a 2 minute minor, mano. If the posts are there, try 'em, but know the facts before passing judgement on the speakers or amp. That is what we are doing here. Ja? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7925 Registered: May-04 | Nuck - Other thread, "warm". Sorry to confuse. ERC - One aspect of bi-wiring is its complete reversibility. If you don't care for the results, or hear the results, undo the connection and go back to single wire. (Though relacing the jumper with a better quality connection has proven to be a worthwhile upgrade in almost all instances.) Any reputable dealer should allow you to audition an extra set of cables with a credit card deposit. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1687 Registered: Dec-04 | Y'all gotta love the free fixin's. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7926 Registered: May-04 | CM - What would you have us discuss on the forum, which receiver to pair with some Cerwin Vegas? Please! This hardly qualifies as "MADNESS!" I do hope you've noticed no one has advocated buying bi-wire cables or bi-wire capable speakers. The discussion is merely about the merits, or lack of merit, in bi-wiring. Your suggestion for a charitable contribution is admirable and should be taken to heart by everyone considering buying yet another $500 CD player that will break within three years time. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1690 Registered: Dec-04 | yup |
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Bronze Member Username: Armyscout42DUGWAY , UTAH USA Post Number: 37 Registered: Sep-04 | some of us are lucky to afford a $500 cd player. and it's only a dream to be able to afford say a $5000 thorens cd player etc...or sacd. www.exoticaudio.org my favorite site of dream systems. i'm sure some of you audiophiles have wages that can afford such systems or you wouldn't be hear right? |
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Bronze Member Username: Armyscout42DUGWAY , UTAH USA Post Number: 38 Registered: Sep-04 | mr. vigne, i'm going to have to consult with you in the future when i set up my system regarding my acoustat's spectra 33 if i should bi wire. i am planning on bi amping it. it's in storage right now. i'm not experiencing in bi-wiring, very little, just bi amping i'm more experienced in. so i always consult on a subject that i'm not familiar with. just about all my loudspeakers are bi wireable in it's design but i always use the standard set up. thank for the recent info! your assessments on such subjects is very much needed in this type of forum. it give us information to work on. many thanks on behalf of all the audiophiles and enthusiast. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7928 Registered: May-04 | Well, okey dokey then. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 457 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, I just find the whole bi-wiring issue to be tired, don't you...you must? It's snake-oil, isn't it? How can it be otherwise? The same may be said for arguing for speaker cables that cost more than a mans home, there's just NO point to it other than decadence, the science, and any objective listening, just does not support otherwise. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7939 Registered: May-04 | I hesitate to ask, but have you listened thtough a system which would justify and include cables as expensive as a man's (or woman's to be fair) home? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7942 Registered: May-04 | CM - I have to say I wouldn't have spent this much time on two threads on a subject I felt was "snake oil". How can it be otherwise? Please read this thread; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/207532.html, for some answers to that question. I do believe just because science hasn't told us why we hear differences in components doesn't mean they don't exist. To believe science has all the answers and should stop searching for further knowledge is decandent and presumptuous. Thirty years ago the idea that capacitors would affect the sound of an amplifier was considered either groundbreaking or somewhat foolish. Today it is widely accepted as fact. Science seems to have its own basis in folklore and myth. Whether someone wants to consider it scientific or not, the "sound" of a component is what anyone wants to hear and to tell someone you do not hear it is no proof they are incorrect. To tell me all amplifiers or cables or vacuum tubes sound alike is something I just can't accept whether there is "science" behind it or not. Maybe there's just not enough science behind it - yet. Science, as I understand it, is about opening your mind to the possibility that you have been wrong all along. If you are not questioning what has gone before, you are merely a technician, not a scientist. I really do not wish to instigate another uprising and start a name throwing thread by commenting on cables and their effect on the sound quality of a system. If you would like to know my opinion regarding cables, you can find many of my posts stating just that in the archives of the forum. I will say that we live in a world full of extravagance and perceived decadence. It is a fact, worldwide, that the rich are getting more wealthy and the less well off are falling further behind. To you expensive cables are decadent. To an orphan in Dafur I suspect the idea that anyone in the world spends any amount of money beyond the bare minimum to reproduce music in their home and collects hundreds of pieces of music, many of which never get played twice, might seem to be decadent and self centered. I have suggested several times on the forum that anyone contemplating an audio purchase should send a few dollars to a charity of their choice. I suspect it will make everything you listen to sound a bit better. But it is not my position to decide whether a $5000 cable, a $8000 dress or a $150k automobile is to be considered decadent. Only the person spending the money can make that decision, if they would. |
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Bronze Member Username: Armyscout42DUGWAY , UTAH USA Post Number: 45 Registered: Sep-04 | I want this forum to know that i share the passion of audio nirvana that our expert mr vigne share, so it's in my humble defense towards his knowledge in this field, because i too have professional and experience on the many subjects he educates us on along with some of the other knowledegable contributors in this forum. Until i personally owned the many equipments I managed to obtain in my 25 yrs of audio, i would have not known the beauty of the high end and higher quality components out there both vintage high end and modern high end. In pre low fi to hi fi, I thought wires are just wires and cables are just cables and 22 gauge and 10 gauge really didn't make much difference and the use of silver, copper, gold and the various materials used or chemicals to treat exotic cables for better resonances until I experienced them, experimented and went to trade school to learn electronic theories in becoming an electronic tech. I did not fully pursue that field but have enough experience and education, although i have some professional experience and diversity of education. Those here that have gone much further I can back up them up, who are far more qualified than I like mr vigne and a few others here. I just believe that for those of you who want to enjoy audio in it's many forms, be humble enough to learn wisdom from those that know and formulate your own conclusion as to what makes your hears happy, after all it's only you that decides in the end. no amount of convincing, scientifically proven or not can change one's perspective unless they see the light. for you skeptics, i too was skeptical until i had a taste of the many wonders of better made amplifiers, receivers, decks, wires/cables, tweaks and especially loudspeakers. Until I heard planars, electrostats, coherent line, flat panel, omni directionals, transmission line and exotic dynamic drivers using mylar, kevlar, polypropelene, i thought a paper speaker was just the same, and i was one of those bose only believer thinking there was nothing to compare bose with besides the basic box speaker until i was exposed to high end and became a high end audio and home theater installer hearing and seeing very nice and enjoyable systems and being able to hear the clean sound of a tube amp cause i was used to hearing hissing sound from cheap solid state amps not really experiencing the high end solid state and tube amps available. Monster cable made a believer out of me of finer cables when i first mail ordered it in it's beginning in 1979/80, but many cable companies that are even far superior that costs in the thousands prior and after of high grade was formed but never really realized the differences until I used them myself. Until you have the finest of the finer things in life, you are only accustomed to what you are presented with. In past times for many people, a jukebox is all they cared for. You see the audio world is like the mechanical world. You have your fine tuned audio and you have your fine tuned autos, the exotics of both worlds are in another level of performance than the standard that most people are used to and that applies to everything else like homes, boats, hotels whatever. Big difference sleeping in birthing on a US NAVY warship and a cruisline like carnival. For us infantry or scout soldiers, donald trump penthouse would be nice compared to sleeping on top of an armored vehicle or the dirt. Technology has gone along way and those responsible for always improving audio/video, my hats to them! For those who don't see or hear any difference, no amount of convincing or technology is going to change your mind unless the wax melts! My view on components here is there are differences in amplifier design, cable design, wires, decks, players, receivers, turntables, loudspeakers, everything. To put everything in the same category is ludicrous and in my opinion is someone who is most likely to have some sort of medical or psychological problems. That's like saying salt water is the same as fresh water, sugar and salt, mountains and hills, men and women, cats and dogs, bose and 2 million dollar kharma system in 1994(experimental). get my drift? |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 458 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, I have heard some VERY expensive wire, on some very expensive systems in some very high end listening rooms in & about NYC, but have not had the opportunity to A/B different wires on those set-ups. Am I wrong in stating bi-wiring is BS, and past a certain point, or I should say gauge & perhaps purity, wire "science" is similarly BS? I trust your opinion, can you, in a blind A/B cable test, discern the difference between $5000 & $8000 cable, or a $100 & $8000 cable, 100% of the time? 50% of the time? Because if you can't, then most, if not all, of us can't either. Having said that, people are free to do as they will. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7944 Registered: May-04 | "Am I wrong in stating bi-wiring is BS, and past a certain point, or I should say gauge & perhaps purity, wire "science" is similarly BS?" Are you wrong stating bi-wiring is BS? Yes, I think you are. There are solid logical explanations for why bi or tri-wiring a crossover would benefit the system's performance. As I said, read the other thread for these explanations and exceptions. I assume what you're asking in the latter portion of the question is whether wire technology is BS. Only if you feel it is. No one is forcing you to buy anything more expensive than 18 AWG zip cord. How someone else chooses to spend their money isn't my concern. Is it BS to convince someone they should spend $27,000 on a refrigerator when they eat out all the time? Who made the decision to spend the money? We appear to be drifting into a moral or philosophical discussion of whether it is right to spend money. I'm sorry, I can't engage in that discussion at the moment. It's Sunday morning and I have to watch the televangelist in his $5000 suit preach to me so I can get to Heaven. Any other discussion of what I can hear is irrelelvant to the argument. There are always the offensive and exquisitely generic $5000 cables which sceptics pull out of their hat as if all $5000 cables are designed by P.T.Barnum. I see now market rates have pushed the median of evil up to $8000. Alan Greenspan be cursed!!! CM, I do not wish to be drawn into another cable thread. No one changes their mind during these forays and the same arguments get passed around ad infinitum. Frighteningly to me, the one side's only argument appears to remain, "nah-nah, can't be." Sadly, the other side is just as guilty of disengaging their brains in response. It truly is a waste of everyone's time. Most especially when this topic has been discussed frequently on this forum and those discussions are in the forum archives. If you feel you would be wasting your money to buy anything better than zip cord and use the give away cables that come with your CD player, I have no problem with that. however, if you have a specific question regarding any of the explanations I provided supporting the why's and how's of bi-wiring, the other thread seems to have absorbed all of those comments. I would direct you to ask any question over on that thread after reading it thoroughly. I suspect repeating myself over here would only take up my time to compose a reply which wouldn't satisfy you. My only question to you, CM, would be; what have you done to understand the technology of bi-wiring and cable differences? Have you done extensive reading for or against these items? Have you even read the other thread to find my explanations of bi-wiring? Most articles against cables simply state it isn't so. What's to be gained from reading just that? Being scientific means keeping an open mind not shutting out everything that doesn't agree with your preconceived conclusions. |
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Bronze Member Username: Armyscout42DUGWAY , UTAH USA Post Number: 46 Registered: Sep-04 | the problem I see here with threaders who have very little experience in high grade cables or wires is the same lack of listening experience in breaking a system such as having the time spent to break a loudspeaker until you hear the nuances. In wires or cables is the same, it takes time to be able to hear discernable differences when set up right. Just putting a more expensive well made tire in a car is not going to make that car run any better. Anything can be made to look bad if the time is not taken to properly match, mate or fine tune such things. With the dakiom feedback stablizers I used, you do not hear any subtle difference at first and it usually takes several days to a week before you start hearing nuances not often heard without it. You can possibly just make a final judgement on wires/cables based on a short time experience in a high end store. For this very reason, is why some manufacturers have home trial test to prove their products. I don't know about 5k and 8k cables, but irregardless a lot of research and testing is involved in high grade accessories at that level, but when you compare a $100 cable to $5k cable, there's a big difference. Some people are used to hearing noise, that they aren't able to discern between good quality and junk! |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 459 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, "CM, I do not wish to be drawn into another cable thread." I presume you mean other than this thread, right? I'm too new to this game to have "preconceived conclusions"; I simply state it as I see it. If you'd like to recommend some further reading (other than the provided links, most of which I have read, thank you), by all means, feel free to do so. I'm sorry if my bluntness, and from your perspective my naiveté, seems to have rubbed you the wrong way, it wasn't my intention. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7950 Registered: May-04 | There's no problem. But, there's also no point in getting into a discussion of cables. It is possibly the single most contentious topic between objectivist and subjectivist listeners. There aren't many articles to point to. The objectivists use their science to bedunk what the subjectivists are hearing. The objectivists believe they have all the explanations they would ever need and the subjectivists believe there are things to still be uncovered to explain what they hear. As I've said, these camps seldom cross lines for a friendly game of bridge. John Atkinson has written several articles reflecting his opinion of the subjectivist's side of the argument, the one he occupies. There's not much science involved in these discussions since he is of the opinion the science required to support what he hears needs more knowledge. Knowledge which many objectivists simply aren't interested in researching or accepting. Here's one such article from Stereophile; http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/165/index3.html It's followed by a series of letters to the editor which reflect both sides of the argument. I will say one thing about those $5000 cables that are always included in any discussion of snake oil cable salespeople. They are the favorite of anyone who doesn't, or doesn't want to, hear what a cable inserted between two electrical circuits can do to affect energy transfer. The challenge is always, "can you pick out the $5000 cable?" No one can. No more than anyone could pick out the $10,000 stove top or the $8000 wrist watch. When you ask if I can detect an unknown cable inserted into an unknown system, there is no way to respond to that question. It wouldn't matter if you asked about a $100 cable or a $10,000 cable. You have to be specific in what I am supposed to hear. I can't detect unknowns. Cables become part of the circuit between components and how those components react to that inserted cable will vary. Objectivists point to this as the snake oil of cable sales. Subjectivists alternately claim this is further proof of how volatile cables can be and that there are no steadfast rules regarding cables. This naturally drives the objectivists nuts because they want answers they can count on each time. You, CM, are allowed to believe whatever you wish about cables. We all are. There is more to buying that $5000 cable than just what you hear. I suggest you read some of the manufacturers sites to cull out the cables which appear based on a knowledge of metalurgy, antenna theory, filter theory, cable construction and so forth which goes into a well constructed cable. And keep an open mind. Reading about a cable is by no means a substitute for hearing its effects in a system. As you and ERC have said, you might have heard a system with expensive cables but you've not had the opportunity to hear what the cables are doing in the system. So your empirical evidence at this point is lacking. If you decide cables aren't where you wish to invest your money, please, don't condemn those who prefer to spend their money otherwise. They might be decadent in your opinion but that is not for you to decide. |
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Bronze Member Username: Armyscout42DUGWAY , UTAH USA Post Number: 48 Registered: Sep-04 | I wanted to add to this in defense of mr. vigne's expertise. You see, i was fortunate enough to have worked for various trades dealing with HIGH END products as an installer. I am a wal mart type of a consumer or 99 cent store, auction, swap meet bargain hunter. ok, i'm a cheap skate that's why i go to cheap dates. you wonder why no woman in her right mind would want to take me home to their mama, instead they take home that M.I.T. or texas instrument grad home. we call them super geeks, revenge of the nerds(judges, law makers, lawyers), and DWEEBS(engineers, I have three in my family, scientists, professors etc.) what's my point? i have to defend mr. vigne's teachings due to my own education,amateur and professional experiences. I thought a washer and dryer that you get out of a used garage sale is sufficient to wash clothes or go to the coin laundramat until i saw what high end washers and dryer can do to clothes, fresh, clean as new clothes. There are big differences in design and engineering in standard consumer products and high end. I installed high end maytag, kenmore, whirlpool LINES, costing an average of $3000 and up for a washer or dryer or refrigerator. They are not expensive for just profitablity sake, there's reason as to why so much time of research and engineering go these products. to simply say that it's just to sell has it's valid point if it was a MONOPOLY of just one manufacturer, but that's far from being the truth. You see, I may not have the opportunity to own high end automobiles, homes etc, but until you do, you don't know what you are missing. I have been in mansions installing, got to ride on them expensive sports cars and limos. After you experience such fine quality products, you can only wish you had them. In audio is the same. when you are used to listening to kraco,craig car stereos and haven't listened to blaupunkt/alpine or luxman, you haven't really heard the finer things in car stereos. high end companies are now into car stereos too like the new line of bang and olufsen(buy danish!support the danes). I also installed and sold for a short time rainbow and kirby vacuum cleaners. they are high end $1200-2000 vacuums. to the average consumer, what kind of person would spend that much money? I tell you what. those vacuums are so well engineered, it's like comparing the ride of a limo to a used beat up honda. You are talking about motors being so powerful and the automatic drive that allows the vacuum to just go with ease. My overall point is, there is a big difference when you are paying that kind of money for high end products whatever it is! the trick is, being able to discern whether that manufacturer or retailer is charging too much or too little in some cases. some products do deserve to be higher in price points. sure there are cable or wire companies that maybe subject to criticism of overpricing or selling junk, but you cannot categorize everything in the same lot. The bose controversy is a good example. A good rule of thumb provided one have done their research and consulation is why spend a $5000 cd player when the rest of your system is only $2000? the same with wires! the legitimate wire companies that manufacture $8k (even though it could be argued in pricepoint)were not intended for an $8k loudspeaker design but for the $20k and above designs. This is the same type of arguements you can make with purchasing a home or anything else. You cannot knock a $23 million dollar home in the 90's over a standard 3 bedroom $250k house. Big fat difference. In audio like anything else, it's the same. When you spend $5k on a speaker wire, you have the pocketbooks for it and it's not designed for the overpriced bose $4k acoustimass system. It's more designed for say an MBL, MAGICO, von schweikert, kharma, dali, duevel,mcintosh, pipedreams,ava grande,genesis, beverige, german physik, the list goes on! though pricing might be a controversial issue, it is safe to say, some products deserve to be priced higher and some lower but generally when you spend that much money on items, it doesn't necessarily mean you are not getting your money's worth. In most cases you are and far more. There are finer things in life. Not everything is a scandal like the us air force $5000 coffee pot on a c-5 a galaxy transport in the 80's that you can get at sears for $50 bucks. I know i was in the air force then, $20 notebook that was only $3 at k-mart! The point is most high end items, you pay for quality and is worth the price fairly or in some cases not priced high enough. an $8k wire is justified if that manufacturer designed a worthwile product and is matched with what it was designed for like i mentioned. for you skeptics, i should be the biggest because i am a blue collar worker who was used to the kraco, sound design, philco car and home stereo's of the 70's with them cheap zip cord wires and using a coat hanger for tv reception. now it's dss, hdtv, plasma, tivo, serius. I'd trade in my cheap generic speaker wires anyday for a $8k high end wire, providing i have the loudspeaker, amp etc. that is matched for it! it really takes years and years of experience from low fi to high end to really appreciate high end and defend high end. unforutnately most consumers don't know anything or have experienced in any great lengths of time anything other than something from walmart, target, sears, jc penny, bestbuy or your local general electronic store. If you have patience and you are say the poor audiophile, you wait a few years or just go to high end auctions and bid on "former" $8k wires, amps, speakers etc...being sold for 3-5 times their original retail price. |
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