Boomy bass

Albert Low New member Username: Jarni Petaluing Jaya, Selangor Malaysia Post Number: 1 Registered: Feb-06	Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:47 GMT Hi everyone! I am new to this site and would appreciate your advice on my problem. My new Wharfedale 9.1 diamonds (on stands) is positioned away from corners and side walls. Source is Marantz 4800 and amplfier is an Audiovega Tube Amp and wired with Supra interconnect cables and Chord Silver speaker cables. These are situated in a small room measuring approx 14" x 14" with large rug on the parquet wood flooring. The mids and highs are truly marvellous, with spacious and accurate imaging..... but the bass sounds boomy. I hv run this new system for 12hours straight and the boominess seems to be persistent. Previously, in this room, my housemate's mini hifi system also had this boomy problem. Now, my new system is also exhibiting this problem. Could it really be due to the room's acoustics? How do you all propose to address this problem?
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 7533 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 16:18 GMT It could be the room. First, you would like to know where in the bandwidth the "boom" is located. This will require running a frequency sweep through your speakers to locate the peaks and dips in the room nodes. Go here; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/1664.html, to find some information that should get you started.
Dakulis Silver Member Username: Dakulis Spokane, Washington United States Post Number: 812 Registered: May-05	Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 19:51 GMT Jon, You have any Ingebrigtsons in Spokane you claim as relatives? If "yes", I may know a few but I'm still not sure about the picture frames you recommended, though. Dave
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Parkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1368 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 20:29 GMT My lite-brite has more holes than that. Rookie Lite-briters!
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 7560 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 23:07 GMT JI - How many alias's do you claim! Once again you are on the forum hawking your goods from Cathedral Sound as if you have discovered something in passing. First you are Jon Fransisco and you heard some speakers at a dealer's private showroom. Then another claim to be someone else and now this! Can't you actually sell anything on your own, Jon? Why not consider that you might be viewed as less than honest or sane when your name changes everytime you introduce yourself.
Michael Cameron Bronze Member Username: Praetorian Post Number: 77 Registered: Dec-05	Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 01:14 GMT Albert, perhaps a dedicated, powered sub woofer. I used to have boomy base too, but now that I have a pretty decent (starter) sub, the difference is incredible.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 7564 Registered: May-04	Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 01:26 GMT In this case, our nefarious interloper is correct. The dimensions of the room, if accurate, will determine what the room adds and subtracts from the sound of any speaker. Adding more bass power to the room by way of a subwoofer is a sure way to get even more boom where the room has a rising response and less bass where the room has a dip in response. You can finesse your way around the room problems but you cannot overpower them. Dealing with the problem by way of speaker placement is free, other than the time invested. If placement doesn't deal with the pproblem to your satisfaction, the next step will cost some money and should be either room treatments or one of the new generation of digital room treatment devices.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Parkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1377 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 02:08 GMT Hey Jon, it was only me who said lite-brite. I am not wanting to hassle Hasbro, but don't wank on other folks for my line.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 7569 Registered: May-04	Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 03:38 GMT Ji - I'm sooooooo impressed you've been in a home with $100k worth of hifi. In Dallas we call those guest dog houses. Get real! I never implied you could figure out the exact frequencies of room nodes and resonances by running a sweep and I know all about the dimensions determining the numbers. I also have seen the sites where figuring room nodes are to be found. If someone doesn't understand the basic problem, why lead them to those sites. The equations, even just plugging in numbers, might easily be over AL's conjuring powers at this point. By running a sweep, you can simply hear what is happening in terms of peaks and dips and begin by knowing there are serious problems or minor problems. After that, my suggestion was to do some reading about the problems room exhibit and start deciding on a route of action from there. Gee, I'm so sorry I didn't have a picture of a panel to show AL. I wouldn't be too hasty in patting yourself on the back, Ji. Seeing a picture of an acoustic panel and knowing your room has a problem at 40Hz is one thing. Knowing what to do with that information and where/how many panels to place for maximum benefit are completely different functions. If you want to offer relevant advice, offer to position the panels for AL and possibly convincing a mate those panels ore for the good fo the system. I also know treating a problem at 40Hz is not so simple as putting up a panel. And who said anything about Mr. Bartha? You thrown his name around here several times as if association will provide you some cover. Why am I giving you a hard time? Maybe because you seem to have been less than honest with us, Ji. The name changes, the web site changes, your job description changes with each passing thread. But the HK receiver and the Cathedral speakers remain the same. I don't know, it just seems kinda creepy to me. And I have a problem with all things creepy. If you don't see the problem with your recent flurry of posts, names, web sites, jobs, etc., maybe you should check your on nodes and resonances. You probably have as many as you have "user names".
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 7572 Registered: May-04	Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 22:49 GMT What a lovely introduction to the forum for AL. Sorry, Albert, every now and again we get someone who thinks they have b@lls bigger than King Kong and thinks the way to make a point is to start a fight. Hey, ji, I'm not interested in a sparring match with a creep with a dozen names. ("I am now using my real name." Oh, whoopee! I believe you now, ji.) You're on post #7 and you're already deciding who on this forum you'll take on!? You're already telling people to go away?!!! You've already decided I'm spreading rumors???!!!!! ji, you're flat out spreading lies. I don't think you can make any of the forum rules and you don't get to start pushing anyone around when you've flat out lied to us several times in the first dozen posts you've made. OK? Play nice or don't play at all. Testosterone fits aren't welcome here. This isn't about me, but it is about you and your entry into this forum; so shall we deal with that issue first. Then maybe we can help AL. Do you write these "reviews" that you conveniently "find" in the same fashion you write forum posts? 120, 160, 200Hz, etc. You missed the point, ji. Those are relatively easy frequencies to deal with. It's the size of what is required as you get beneath 100Hz that I was commenting on. Now, tell me; what about taking me on is relevant to AL? You want to be relevant? Help AL! You want to fight? I'm not the one you want to deal with. I have no interest in a p!ssing contest with anyone let alone a creepy liar. What's this "put your money where your mouth is" crap? Did I say anything about whether the panels work or not? No, I did not. Why is it that what your sort always falls back on? I'm a coward because I don't want your product? As you say, ji, get real. You just thought you'd get a sale out of that approach, didn't you? Phhhhhhtttttt!!!!! More importantly, what in your arrogant nature makes you think my room needs any more treatments? You've been here long to enough to already figured out I bully people but you haven't paid attention to what I've posted about my system along the way? Seems to me if you've been here long enough to reach one conclusion, you'd have known the other. Or, is it you just think I'm picking on you, ji? Well, that conclusion would be correct. I don't like creeps! And, so far, you've been a creep! We probably both know there are multiple ways to deal with room problems, ji. Not just your way. (Oops! Maybe you didn't know that last part.) A difefrent speaker location might solve some of Al's problems. At no cost. That's why I intially directed AL to the section of the forum where acoustic treatments are discussed. Educating himself regarding the various solutions or finding someone who can competently assist with his problem was what I was going for. I'm not pushing any product or any agenda here, ji. You are. So why don't you let that money/mouth turkey die, eh, ji? If I've got a problem, it's with someone who doesn't seem too interested in being honest with those of us on the forum and who comes to hawk merchandise with lies. ji, your entrance to this forum has been less than stellar. You managed to get one thread kicked off the forum with one entry attempt under a difefrent name and now you want to pick a fight on #7 under your real name. AUSPICIOUS, ji, AUSPICIOUS!!! Here's the deal, ji; you stop being the d!ck you've shown yourself to be so far and you and I will have no problems. You can make any audio related suggestion you want, within reason, and I'll do no more than disagree when I feel the need. You did notice I agreed with you about the room problems; didn't you? Naw, I didn't think you noticed the obvious. Don't try to sell us stuff and don't lie to us. Those are pretty simple rules that I believe you've agreed to several times when you've registered as a member ... how many times now? Under how many names, professions, web sites, etc.? How's that sound? No lies. No sales pitch. No problems. Sounds fair to me.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 7579 Registered: May-04	Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 18:48 GMT Wait till he scrolls down to "Benifits (sic) of bannana (sic) plugs". Sheeeeesh! This is what "epiphiny" gets you.
Bvan Bronze Member Username: Bvan Cape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 63 Registered: Jun-05	Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 19:07 GMT dont know if its worth giving this post any more attention, but i have a suggestion for fixing serious primary room nodes that once worked a treat for me. the idea is to firstly get a sub, secondly cross it over at say 80hz, and thirdly get a behringer 1124 parametric equalizer for the sub. this will cost you the price of the sub, plus about $100 for the equalizer, plus a good half day of getting to grips with the equalizer(and a spl meter and test tone disk if you dont have one) this can, if done correctly, give you a near ruller flat bass response from about 100hz and down. it will also give you the added extention the sub offers, and may in the end not cost you too much more time and effort than buying and properly setting up bass traps. you would still need to do some experimenting with sub and speaker placement. the eq is best used to cut peaks in the freq response rather than boost dips, so you'd need to set up your sub with this in mind. i'd be interested to hear if anyone has any objection to this plan of attack? i've never experienced or heard of any down side to this approach. but as i said you've got to be a bit of a tweeker, but then same goes if you want to get the most out of acoustical treatments i think. hope this may be of some help b
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 7581 Registered: May-04	Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 21:52 GMT I think your suggestion is excellent, Bvan. Room treatments are one approach to solving room problems and are almost always met with some degree of hostility when mated to a living room. They work best when confined to a dedicated listening room; and should be held to a minimum usage in most other locations. The Behringer has received excellent reviews in both the consumer and professional audio press. It is not cheap but as Bvan has pointed out its cost is about equivalent to most well done acoustic treatment solutions and is far more likely to solve the porblems at hand. It is more flexible as it can move if and when the system moves and can literally reshape any room's sonic signature. Alao it offers far better control of the very deepest bass which is a difficult task for any passive treatment system. I've not spent time with the Behringer but I understand it will likely provide a more neutral balance to the sound than bass traps can provide as they tend to still leave a fingerprint on the room's sound. My only hestitaion in this instance, and it is very slight, would be whether the Behringer has enough individual trim points, or total resolving power, to completely solve Al's square room problem; or would he be aiming at simply solving the largest problems with the Behringer and then working with passive means to finalize the solution?
Ryanddd Unregistered guest	Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 08:47 GMT Standing waves and room problems. I agree that most acoustical room treatments do not always look good in living rooms. Most home designs do not make the living room the ideal place in your home for a serious high end system. Shelf systems that don't extend below 50-80Hz like Jans are perfect for living rooms or even bedrooms without the need for room dampening panels or other bought acoustical treatments. A area rug and curtains, furniture, bookshelves and tapestries can help your room sound better without making your living room look like a movie theater. I personally use the room dampening panels as well as the manufactures speaker placement suggestions to ensure I don't have any unwanted distortions caused by standing waves. Since a sound wave consists of a repeating pattern of high pressure and low pressure regions moving through a medium, it is sometimes referred to as a pressure wave. If a detector, whether it be the human ear or a man-made instrument, is used to detect a sound wave, it would detect fluctuations in pressure as the sound wave impinges upon the detecting device. At one instant in time, the detector would detect a high pressure; this would correspond to the arrival of a compression at the detector site. At the next instant in time, the detector might detect normal pressure. And then finally a low pressure would be detected, corresponding to the arrival of a rarefaction at the detector site. Since the fluctuations in pressure as detected by the detector occur at periodic and regular time intervals, a plot of pressure vs. time would appear as a sine curve. The crests of the sine curve correspond to compressions; the troughs correspond to rarefactions; and the "zero point" corresponds to the pressure which the air would have if there were no disturbance moving through it. The representation of sound by a sine wave is merely an attempt to illustrate the sinusoidal nature of the pressure-time fluctuations. Do not conclude that sound is a transverse wave which has crests and troughs. Sound is indeed a longitudinal wave with compressions and rarefactions. As sound passes through a medium, the particles of that medium do not vibrate in a transverse manner. Do not be misled - sound is a longitudinal wave. A sound wave, like any other wave, is introduced into a medium by a vibrating object. The vibrating object is the source of the disturbance which moves through the medium. The vibrating object which creates the disturbance could be the vocal chords of a person, the vibrating string and sound board of a guitar or violin, the vibrating tines of a tuning fork, or the vibrating diaphragm of a radio speaker. Regardless of what vibrating object is creating the sound wave, the particles of the medium through which the sound moves is vibrating in a back and forth motion at a given frequency. The frequency of a wave refers to how often the particles of the medium vibrate when a wave passes through the medium. The frequency of a wave is measured as the number of complete back-and-forth vibrations of a particle of the medium per unit of time. If a particle of air undergoes 1000 longitudinal vibrations in 2 seconds, then the frequency of the wave would be 500 vibrations per second. A commonly used unit for frequency is the Hertz (abbreviated Hz). As a sound wave moves through a medium, each particle of the medium vibrates at the same frequency. This is sensible since each particle vibrates due to the motion of its nearest neighbor. The first particle of the medium begins vibrating, at say 500 Hz, and begins to set the second particle into vibrational motion at the same frequency of 500 Hz. The second particle begins vibrating at 500 Hz and thus sets the third particle of the medium into vibrational motion at 500 Hz. The process continues throughout the medium; each particle vibrates at the same frequency. And of course the frequency at which each particle vibrates is the same as the frequency of the original source of the sound wave. Subsequently, a guitar string vibrating at 500 Hz will set the air particles in the room vibrating at the same frequency of 500 Hz which carries a sound signal to the ear of a listener which is detected as a 500 Hz sound wave. The back-and-forth vibrational motion of the particles of the medium would not be the only observable phenomenon occurring at a given frequency. Since a sound wave is a pressure wave, a detector could be used to detect oscillations in pressure from a high pressure to a low pressure and back to a high pressure. As the compression (high pressure) and rarefaction (low pressure) disturbances move through the medium, they would reach the detector at a given frequency. For example, a compression would reach the detector 500 times per second if the frequency of the wave were 500 Hz. Similarly, a rarefaction would reach the detector 500 times per second if the frequency of the wave were 500 Hz. Thus the frequency of a sound wave not only refers to the number of back-and-forth vibrations of the particles per unit of time, but also refers to the number of compression or rarefaction disturbances which pass a given point per unit of time. A detector could be used to detect the frequency of these pressure oscillations over a given period of time. The typical output provided by such a detector is a pressure-time plot Since a pressure-time plot shows the fluctuations in pressure over time, the period of the sound wave can be found by measuring the time between successive high pressure points (corresponding to the compressions) or the time between successive low pressure points (corresponding to the rarefactions). As discussed in an earlier unit, the frequency is simply the reciprocal of the period. For this reason, a sound wave with a high frequency would correspond to a pressure time plot with a small period - that is, a plot corresponding to a small amount of time between successive high pressure points. Conversely, a sound wave with a low frequency would correspond to a pressure time plot with a large period - that is, a plot corresponding to a large amount of time between successive high pressure points. The diagram below shows two pressure-time plots,one corresponding to a high frequency and the other to a low frequency.The ears of humans (and other animals) are sensitive detectors capable of detecting the fluctuations in air pressure which impinge upon the eardrum. The mechanics of the ear's detection ability will be discussed later in this lesson. For now, it is sufficient to say that the human ear is capable of detecting sound waves with a wide range of frequencies, ranging between approximately 20 Hz to 20 000 Hz. Any sound with a frequency below the audible range of hearing (i.e., less than 20 Hz) is known as an infrasound and any sound with a frequency above the audible range of hearing (i.e., more than 20 000 Hz) is known as an ultrasound. Humans are not alone in their ability to detect a wide range of frequencies. Dogs can detect frequencies as low as approximately 50 Hz and as high as 45 000 Hz. Cats can detect frequencies as low as approximately 45 Hz and as high as 85 000 Hz. The sensations of these frequencies are commonly referred to as the pitch of a sound. A high pitch sound corresponds to a high frequency and a low pitch sound corresponds to a low frequency. Amazingly, many people, especially those who have been musically trained, are capable of detecting a difference in frequency between two separate sounds which is as little as 2 Hz. When two sounds with a frequency difference of greater than 7 Hz are played simultaneously, most people are capable of detecting the presence of a complex wave pattern resulting from the interference and superposition of the two sound waves. Certain sound waves when played (and heard) simultaneously will produce a particularly pleasant sensation when heard, are are said to be consonant. Such sound waves form the basis of intervals in music. For example, any two sounds whose frequencies make a 2:1 ratio are said to be separated by an octave and result in a particularly pleasing sensation when heard; that is, two sound waves sound good when played together if one sound has twice the frequency of the other. Similarly two sounds with a frequency ratio of 5:4 are said to be separated by an interval of a third; such sound waves also sound good when played together. The ability of humans to perceive pitch is associated with the frequency of the sound wave which impinges upon the ear. Because sound waves are longitudinal waves which produce high- and low-pressure disturbances of the particles of a medium at a given frequency, the ear has an ability to detect such frequencies and associate them with the pitch of the sound. But pitch is not the only property of a sound wave detectable by the human ear. The ability of humans to perceive pitch is associated with the frequency of the sound wave which impinges upon the ear. Because sound waves are longitudinal waves which produce high- and low-pressure disturbances of the particles of a medium at a given frequency, the ear has an ability to detect such frequencies and associate them with the pitch of the sound. But pitch is not the only property of a sound wave detectable by the human ear. As has been previously mentioned in this unit, a sound wave is created as a result of a vibrating object. The vibrating object is the source of the disturbance which moves through the medium. The vibrating object which creates the disturbance could be the vocal chords of a person, the vibrating string and sound board of a guitar or violin, the vibrating tines of a tuning fork, or the vibrating diaphragm of a radio speaker. Any object which vibrates will create a sound. The sound could be musical or it could be noisy; but regardless of its quality, the sound was created by a vibrating object. Nearly all objects, when hit or struck or plucked or strummed or somehow disturbed, will vibrate. If you drop a meter stick or pencil on the floor, it will begin to vibrate. If you pluck a guitar string, it will begin to vibrate. If you blow over the top of a pop bottle, the air inside will vibrate. When each of these objects vibrate, they tend to vibrate at a particular frequency or a set of frequencies. The frequency or frequencies at which an object tends to vibrate with when hit, struck, plucked, strummed or somehow disturbed is known as the natural frequency of the object. If the amplitude of the vibrations are large enough and if natural frequency is within the human frequency range, then the object will produce sound waves which are audible. All objects have a natural frequency or set of frequencies at which they vibrate. The quality or timbre of the sound produced by a vibrating object is dependent upon the natural frequencies of the sound waves produced by the objects. Some objects tend to vibrate at a single frequency and they are often said to produce a pure tone. A flute tends to vibrate at a single frequency, producing a very pure tone. Other objects vibrate and produce more complex waves with a set of frequencies which have a whole number mathematical relationship between them; these are said to produce a rich sound. A tuba tends to vibrate at a set of frequencies which are mathematically related by whole number ratios; it produces a rich tone. Still other objects will vibrate at a set of multiple frequencies which have no simple mathematical relationship between them. These objects are not musical at all and the sounds which they create are best described as noise. When a meter stick or pencil is dropped on the floor, a vibrates with a number of frequencies, producing a complex sound wave which is clanky and noisy.
Bvan Bronze Member Username: Bvan Cape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 65 Registered: Jun-05	Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 16:41 GMT hope that was a cut-n-paste there ryanddd yeah, then there's the waf issue. though even bringing home a sub has been known to raise some ire. and the bfd also has many flashing lights i must warn you! jan, you refering to the bfd 1124? $100 is a steal i recon. i've wondered about 'signal integrity' (or whatever we can call it) from running the signal through a budget pro-audio box, especially if the rest of the system is relitively high-end, but i think concidering the low frequency range, there should be no noticable degradation of the signal at all.(i certainly wouldnt use it on mid-range drivers or tweeters) with the 1124 you can tweak 12 individual points on your curve. at each of these points you specify the width of the filter you are going to apply. so you can bring down a very very narrow peak, or use one of the filters to bring down a peak stretching from say 35 to 80hz or whatever. the experts recon you shouldnt need more than 6 of these filters to tame the average room. i used 10 of the 12 filters and got it flat within 3db from 100hz down(except for one verry narrow dip of -6db which i chose not to boost) you can also put in house-curves if you have different preferences for music than for movies. the difference this equalizer made to my system was far greater than any component switch or upgrade i'd ever made. i think its the single best argument for sub+sat over floorstander in most rooms/living arrangements. cheers b
Frank Abela Gold Member Username: Frank_abela Berkshire UK Post Number: 1202 Registered: Sep-04	Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 18:01 GMT The other option to the behringer/sub solution is to buy a Velodyne which has a built in room EQ program that takes care of it for you... Albert, A square room is always bad news when its sides are around 12 - 15 feet. It's particularly bad if the ceiling is around 9 feet high. Bass traps work. We installed some in our demo room to great effect, but they are a bit big and obvious. It's unlikely to be an acceptable solution in a 14ft square room. Squabblers: stop squabbling! Makes you look antagonistic which doesn't help people pluck up the courage to post for the first time... Regards, Frank.
Anonymous	Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 20:39 GMT Considering this is a stereo setup with no bass crossover in the amp then the speakers will still get all the lower frequencies therefore negating the use of the BFD and subwoofer. In order to make use of the equaliser and sub you would need to use some kind of external cut-off filter between amp and speakers.
Anonymous	Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 20:52 GMT Also if you add the BFD to the chain between source and amp or for instance pre and power it will add noise to the system. The BFD needs a cut off filter.
Bvan Bronze Member Username: Bvan Cape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 70 Registered: Jun-05	Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 15:36 GMT i forgot about the velodynes, a much easier solution. but if you want to use another brand of sub or have your curve ruller-flat then you need an external eq (the velodyne does a much rougher eq than what you could achieve with a bfd and much fiddling around) anonymous you are correct. when i mentioned crossing it over at 80hz i should have said how maybe. if your source does not have processing then you'd either need to choose a sub that has a high-pass filter, or at worst get an external crossover such as the outlaw icbm. anon, the bfd would go downstream of the amp and not between the source and the amp. you'd hook it up to your extra set of pre-outs (which you'd have to check that you have if using an integrated amp. if using seperates you can always use a Y-adaptor on the pre amps outs) b p.s even with no bass management and running the speakers large, you can still manipulate frequencies above their roll-off point by running the sub out of phase at the problem frequencies, thereby using the subs output to cancell out the booming frequency.

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