Archive through January 13, 2006
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 654 Registered: Feb-04 | KEGGER How about just one ------yep------- ? |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 11 Registered: Apr-05 | After three weeks of listening and experimentation with the Jolida 707, the Musical Fidelity x-ray cd player and the Musical Fidelity x-box (cd buffer) with tannoy arden speakers, I have come to some interesting (and very subjective) conclusions: 1. Without the cd buffer, the speakers have more bass with the 4 ohm tap; however, there is more of a warm, open sound when the speakers are run through the 8 ohm tap. 2. With the cd buffer in place (and running the speakers from the 8 ohm tap), the bass really isn't veiled or muffled (as I once thought) but rather it is farther back in the soundstage. In fact, with the cd buffer, the soundstage shifts from a rather 2 dimensional soundstage to a three dimensional, 180 degree (deep) soundstage. I have some recordings that sound like I could walk into the session and dance with the band. This is "trick" indeed. But I would like to bring the bass forward -- perhaps different tubes for Christmas. I would like to know how two 6112 tubes can/ could produce this deep soundstage. Anyone have any ideas? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6429 Registered: May-04 | As far as the elecronics are concerned, soundstaging is mostly a function of maintaining the phase relationships of the signal from input to output. Probably the best way to explain what you're hearing with the X-box inserted in the signal path would be to say you are hearing what the tubes and the circuit around them are doing to the phase relationships of the signal. Some degree of change to the frequency response is likely to be involved in the effect also due to impedance changes in the X-box. I believe MF once referred to what the tube buffer would do in the system is to "straighten out" the signal. It seems an odd way to consider what the buffer does since we usually want the electronics to merely pass the signal from in to out with the least amount of change as possible. It is nothing more than a buffer stage and as such its effectiveness is mostly in the improved match between output imedance of the buffer stage and input impedance of the amplifier. This also never made much sense to me since it almost implies MF has done a poor job of designing the X-ray player. I think a call to MF might be either illuminating or obfuscating. Either way, if you decide to give them a call, let us know what they say. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 660 Registered: Feb-04 | I've wondered about this as well. Theoretically a passive preamp should do the best job of transmitting the signal from the source to the amp. However I find myself prefering the sound of an active tube preamp. Not only does it seem to improve the soundstage as RAC suggests, but seems to provide more body to the sound--notes sound like they're produced by instruments and not electronics. It makes me wonder whether I just prefer the distortion created by a tube preamp. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 661 Registered: Feb-04 | On the tube rolling front, I just replaced the stock KT88 tubes on my Prologue 2 with Svetlana EL34s. So far, I've noticed a slight improvement in the upper midrange. Acoustic instruments and female vocals sound more real and airy. Bass is still there but sounds looser. Differences though aren't dramatic. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6435 Registered: May-04 | Regarding the passive pre amp, the problem with the basic idea of passive units is they are seldom correct for what you are using then for. Throughout the signal path from source to speakers, the voltage representing the fluctuating signal is passing from stage to stage to stage along the way. Whether this is passing from one gain stage to another gain stage or from pre amp to power amp (still basically two gain stages), the impedance match between the two stages must be correct or else the transfer process will suffer. Using a CD/DVD player as your source there is little chance for a too low output voltage from the player affecting the transfer. However most CD/DVD player's output impedances are designed to operate into the average input impedance of an active pre amp. (Pull up the specs on a few high end pre amps to see what this number averages.) The impedance is normally stepped down a notch inside the pre amp's circuitry (solid state more so than tubes on average) and will be sent through a potentiometer that can vary from 10kOhms to 150 kOhms in impedance. After passing through the VC, the impedance is again taken back down to the output impedance of the pre amp. The "ideal" output impedance for a pre amp is around 600 Ohms which should allow it to drive fairly long cables). To arrive at this figure, pre amps will often employ buffering circuits (which is what the X-box is - just a buffering circuit) to maintain a constant output impedance independent of voltage and frequency as it works into the input circuitry of the power amp. There are several potential problems with substituting a passive pre amp for all of this circuitry. The first is the volume control chosen for the passive design. No potentiometer can be at the same impedance and operate properly. By its very nature, the potentiometer is always changing its impedance to vary the output level. This means the best match to the iput is at one position only on the volume control. (A simple pot as opposed to a stepped resistor vc makes matters worse since "all" of the pot's resistance is in contact with the output at all times. A stepped resistor vc places just one resistor in the signal path at any one volume setting.) Using this arrangement the passive vc/pre amp will be "correct" as far as the CD/DVD player is concerned when you play at the correct volume level for the impedance match and at no other point will the input and output match properly. The input impedance the player wishes to see is seldom the output impedance the power amp wishes to see. With an impedance mismatch between the passive pre amp and the power amp's input circuitry, any anomoly in the interconnect cables in the way of higher than average capacitance, inductance or resistance will further affect the transfer between the two "circuits". All of this means that with the possible exception of only one point on the vc, if the input and output impedances are fortunately matched, will the passive pre amp's function be correct. The incorrect values will affect frequency response and dynamics for the most part. A new generation of passive designs is being marketed with stepped resisitor vc's and autoformers on the outputs of the vc's. These autoformers maintain a constant output impedance and act as a simplified passive buffer between the pre amp and power amp. Unfortunately, a very high quality autoformer with minimal signal loss or alteration is expensive and you have put the passive design back at the price of an simple active circuit pre amp or higher. Usually the passive will still have less flexibility than the active device. So this option has tended to appeal to the hair shirt, 2.5 watt S.E.T. crowd who want the simplest, straightest signal path possible. (No offense meant to anyone using a S.E.T.) The next option is to use a passive pre amp in an integrated amplifier where the universality of the pre amp circuit is not an issue. The new Exposure integrated has such a pre amp "circuit". Of course, there are plenty of people who think audiophiles just like certain "pleasant" distortions in all of their equipment. |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 12 Registered: Apr-05 | Well, musical fidelity did not provide an answer/ response to my query. But I have been thinking about the xbox and the jolida: Shouldn't the preamp section of the jolida perform the same function as the xbox? Well, I thought the preamp should (add depth to the soundstage), but it doesn't sound like it to me. The more I think of the jolida-xbox-xray combination, the more I am vaguely reminded of the brief time I spent with a Carver Hologram Generator. Hold on; let me finish: I am not advocating the use of the HG, but what the device did to some systems was interesting at first (depending upon the source material) but then the experience became annoying. I seem to remember the HG creating a deeper soundstage. I first heard the device used on my father's system: audio research pre and amp and huge Fulton speakers (the memory of the sound that system produced --without the HG--still makes me smile). I briefly used the HG with a MA6100 and tannoy speakers in the early 1980's. I remember that the HG delayed the channel signals somehow. That sense of deep (180 degree) soundstage and instrument placement I hear with the jolida-mf setup is reminiscent of the HG effect (but not annoying). Anyway...just ramblings between classes... Jan, are you now associated with Alegria Audio? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6519 Registered: May-04 | "But I have been thinking about the xbox and the jolida: Shouldn't the preamp section of the jolida perform the same function as the xbox?" Certainly you would hope it would. Not all pre amps contain buffer stages. Most do, but some designers feel buffers are an additional level of circuitry the signal must pass through and therefore distain their inclusion in a "well designed" product. Normally this scheme works fine if you are mating their pre amp with their power amp. Of course, this overlooks the majority of those audiophiles who prefer to choose separates on the basis of picking each component they feel suits their needs most satisfactorily. You probably will find the outboard buffer stage adds some pleasant effects on some recordings. Most of what you will hear will probably depend on the level of simplicity used in the recording. ********* I assume you ask about my relationship with Alegria Audio since I have suggested their product on several ocassions. No, I am not associated with Alegria in any official capacity. As you should know, I seldom make product recommendations on the forum. I virtually never get involved in whether one receiver is "better" than another. I abstain from suggesting speaker "X" mates well with amplifier "Y". However, my experience with the Alegria product and with Tim indicate a company that is well worth pointing out to other members of the forum. Everything I've heard from the product, and the ideas I've exchanged with Tim, suggest this is a company that should be getting a bit more press on the forum than he has been allowed by those who have benefited from his generousity. Obvbiously Tim didn't send a pair of speakers around the country just to have another demo pair of Lings available. He got some benefit from the exposure also. However, for the quality of the product I heard, considering the price of the product I heard, I think Alegria is well worth suggesting. Tim and I are 1500 miles apart and we have never met face to face nor even communicated on the phone. What I read from Tim and the response on the DIY speaker builders forums to the drivers and the technology he employs indicate he and I would probably like most of the same products as we apparently listen for similar qualities in our systems. Certainly you wouldn't ask if I were in the employ of Quad because I've ocassionally suggested they are a great speaker. Nor would you ask if other people who push their favorites at every opportuniy are employed by Panasonic, Ascend, JBL, etc. Just curious, but why did you ask me? |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 13 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan: Although my tannoy ardens have been with me (or in storage) since 1978 (each speaker has been re-coned once), and I love their sound, they are just "so d*** big. Thus, I am beginning to read up on speakers -- floor standing and smaller. I have been looking at totem and spendor, but then... I have been following discussions on ecoustics, and on the "ling thing" thread it appeared to me that you wrote the set-up instructions for the Lings (and had heard them and reviewed them, too). I remembered that you have a pair Rogers (similar to spendors, yes?). And I thought, well...if you found the Lings interesting (enough to write setup instructions), perhaps I should do some reading (and research) in that direction. I have been impressed with your questions and answers on the forum, thus I thought that if you found the product interesting enough (perhaps interesting enough to be connected with the company), I would give the company/ products a closer look. Thus, I asked if you were now associated with Alegria. On the other hand, my cynical nature often suggests to me that everyone is selling something; thus I listen; I filter from as many sides as possible (as Walt Whitman might say), and then I decide (or sometimes I don't decide) for myself. I am trying to moderate my cynical nature, but it is a continuing and often discouraging process...%). I remain, however, very curious about the Ling I and II and the Emma. Music is most amazing hobby! |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6525 Registered: May-04 | I would certainly encourage you to look at the products from Alegria. I think the company has some outstanding values as Tim has priced his product to get his foot in the door more than he has to make a living at this point. Drop him a note and I'm sure he'll be happy to give you more information on his line of speakers. I wrote the set up instructions for my specific audition of the Ling. Though I would expect them to be relevant to anyone using the Ling, the instructions I provided were for what I wanted the speaker to accomplish. They were posted largely in response to not only what I heard but also to some previous comments by listeners who thought the Ling to be too reserved. I suspected those listeners had just plunked the Lings on a stand and not given much, if any, consideration to how set up affects the final outcome. I hope my comments indicate you should work just a bit to get a speaker to sound good instead of just following accepted tweaks, as if all speakers were the same. It is a theme I echoed not that long ago on a thread concerning tweaks where I suggested you actually listen to the results of the tweak and that you have a direction in mind for what results you want to achieve instead of just doing every tweak and assuming they all are beneficial to your situation. I spent two weeks with the Lings in two systems in my house. The time in the HT room was minimal and gave me an idea what to expect. In the main stereo system, the Lings did impress me. They have some seriously obvious design benefits that at times put them slightly ahead of the Rogers. That's not bad considering the "legend" of the LS3/5a's and the respective price difference between the two speakers. They also have some obvious disadvantages; but none so serious I couldn't think of any other speaker in the same price range merely trading one flaw for another. I think my assessment of why someone shouldn't consider buying the Lings is fair. If your situation doesn't have those limitations, then the Ling certainly impresses for a very small price. I understand Tim has incorporated some changes since the Ling audition has ended; and this has probably resulted in a slightly better product than the one I heard. And, of course, if your budget can stretch to the slightly higher priced speakers Tim is producing, many of the limitations of the Ling will be mitigated by the benefits of more cash being devoted to solving problems inherent in any budget design. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6526 Registered: May-04 | All that said, I realize the under $1,000 price range is very, very competitive and there are more than a usual share of excellent values in speakers for that amount of money. That the Ling is fairly unique in its approach to sound is still an appealing quality to me. Despite their sometimes too obvious limitations, single driver speakers of any kind intrigue me to no end. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 659 Registered: May-05 | Jan, Very nice updates and thoughts on your time with the Lings. I'll have to check in with Tim to find out what "tweaks" he incorporated. I must say that you set-up instructions on the Lings led me to change my set-up of my Ascends for the better, at least on the fronts; the rears are stuck where they are but, at least, they're at ear listening level and in close to a decent position. However, the above wasn't the real point of my post. The Fisher amp is coming along and should be completed by the end of November. The reconing of the Altecs are also going to be completed by then and my friend will bring them over and assist in the set-up, including loaning me a very good SPL meter. I've got the CD player waiting and a number of my reference CDs available for a listen. So, I was just providing an update on my life since I've been buried and haven't been able to spend much time on the forum. I'll check in as time permits and changes occur. Thanks, Dave. |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 629 Registered: Dec-03 | Talkin' about me in front of my back eh? Hi Randy! Jan and I have kinda hit it off on the audio front. I appreciate that Jan is "mature" in the world of audio and like his approach to things. As Jan has said, we have no relationship beyond that. Following Jan's feedback I made a minor adjustment to handle some of the backwave reflection of the main driver inside the cabinet. It's a subtle difference but one I felt was worthy of incorporating as part of the regular design. Unassociated to that I've also recently revisited my Rosa LCR and improved the crossover design. The results were both unexpected and very satisfying. I'm not usually a big fan of d'Appolito configurations and built this one with home theater in mind but I have to say I'm impresssed with the presence this speaker creates when playing music. Even my wife (she who knows what she likes) used the term "presence" when she heard the speaker before I said anything. That surprised me because I've never heard that word come out of her mouth ("presents" perhaps but not "presence"). This throws one more option into the mix as if there weren't enough already. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2682 Registered: Dec-03 | ------yep------- |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2683 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry to those that have asked about me and my deepest thanks! "including emails" But how's it going in tube land? (SM I saw your post in the dog's thread good to see your giving movies a try) |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 15 Registered: Apr-05 | Kegger: Welcome back and a "thank you" dating back to 30 September on this thread. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 64 Registered: Nov-05 | Kegger So it's true - you ARE still alive. Good!  |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2684 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes Rantz I am sill alive and KIKIN! I see you have some new toy's. No tubes though,,,,,,,, YET! LOL! RAC you are welcome, hows yur tubin goin? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6889 Registered: May-04 | Kegger - It's good to hear from you. How's business? |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2685 Registered: Dec-03 | OH I'm still trying to find something and will hopefully have something here shortly. Thanks for askin! Nobody's got anything new to add in tubeville? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6899 Registered: May-04 | Nope! |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2686 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan "or anyone else" have any experience with ADS speakers? Here's a couple pic's of the pair I'm using. They are a sealed 3-way design with a 10" woofer and dome mid/tweet. "yes they need a little more power then the 300B can give them" LOL! Either the rogue 88 at 60wpc or the GTA se-40 at 40wpc do fine on them.   |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 734 Registered: May-05 | Something new in tube land, finally. I spoke with my buddy yesterday. It seems he has finished the amp but hasn't had a chance to play it with the Altec Lansings. His parts supplier in Florida provided the wrong parts for the Stonehenge IIs, he sent the Stonehenge III parts instead. BUT, he got the right parts on Saturday and he's got the speakers almost put back together. Then, he's going to break them in for a few hours, 5 - 10 and then we're going to bring everything over here on Saturday and set everthing up and put my new/old Arcam CD player in the mix and see how it all comes together. So, I haven't heard any of this before paying for it but the total out of pocket for everything is under $1000 so I don't see how I could go wrong since I can sell everything and get my money out of it or make money, if by chance it doesn't sound as good as I think it will. So, I'm not excited or anything. I'll report when there's more to report. NO REALLY, I'M EXCITED, yeah tube envy!! |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6901 Registered: May-04 | ADS was considered a very good speaker line back in the day. They enjoyed recommended product status in many of their speakers. I never sold the line, just against them. There was a tie in with Braun as to who would get what products and what naming rights when ADS ceased the distribution of the Braun products under the ADS badge. This finally sunk ADS since Braun had more financial power to bring to the table. The same speakers were rebadged and sold in North America as Braun for several years and eventually left the US market for greener pastures. While not exclusive to the ADS/Braun line, the speakers sported dome midrange drivers which was quite unusual at the time. Their first claim to fame was during the period when mini monitors were popular and they produced an aluminum enclosure for a very small speaker that produced substantial bass response for the package size. The parts and construction quality were very good for the time as you can tell from the basket on the woofer and the air core inductors in the Xo. There are still plenty of ADS users who either have their speakers or regret parting with their speakers. What are you doing to that pair? |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 16 Registered: Apr-05 | After two months with the Jolida 707, I can say without hesitation that I like it (a lot). With the Musical Fidelity CD player and tube buffer (and even without the tube buffer) and the Tannoys, I believe that I am ready to kick back for another twenty years or so (that's how long I had the MA6100/ Tannoy combination). I hear a lot of sound/ a lot of detail and a lot of warmth (no edginess -- I hear that now when I listen to the 6100). On most recordings (even mono), it often seems like I'm in the studio (or on a small stage) with the musicians. (I need to listen to more orchestra music, though.) I connected the Ling two-ways to the Jolida last night. (The Lings have done two weeks in our HT system and have performed wonderfully: our PBS station ran a Springsteen documentary (ca. 1975) last week and it sounded fantastic; Lennon in Toronto (1969) and the Canadian Express (1970) DVDs also sound impressive.) Back to the Lings and the Jolida: it took me a while to set them up in the "sound room," but when I located the correct placement I smiled. There is not as much sound as the Tannoys (but they are 15 inches in diameter, too); what there is, however, is impressive (way to go, Tim!). It does take more power to drive the Lings, but they produce fine sound, especially vocals and midrange instruments (like resonators, classical guitar, and muted trumpets). I have some solo piano that really sounds remarkable through them, too. Tonight I'll feed them some jazz and string quartet pieces and see what they do. I will try some large orchestra, too (eventually). Now, let's talk tubes. I thought I would treat myself to some new glassware for Christmas -- I was thinking about two matched sets of KT66s (for the bottom, without mucking up the midrange and high end too much). Are Sino and Sovetek the only two brands available in this flavor)? Can anyone explain the (subjective) difference in sound between the KT66 and the 6L6 tubes? I am interested in any possible tradeoffs any of you might have noticed (e.g., do I give up high end for more bottom with one particular tube type?). It's time for me to go ... I have final exams to grade. (happy face with bullet hole in forehead!) |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2687 Registered: Dec-03 | Just a quick response to Jan then I'll get back to the others. First of all I had to open them to see what they were made of and if any tweaks or upgrades presented themselves, I was fairly impressed. I may replace some of the caps and possably look into resistor upgrades. (same values) I've found quite a bit of info on the company and the men behind it, some of them have gone on to other company's, including one of the lead designers is now the newer company Aerial Accoustics. There's a fairly loyal following. Somehow I've managed "through trades" to get 3 pairs of these L880's spks! I've also gotten a few smaller pairs plus some spare parts to build a matching center channel using the same midrange/tweeter/xover and 2 8" ADS drivers. So I wll be putting 6 of these and the new center into my multichannel setup. I will also finally remove the rest of the tube amps except the main front and put my parasound 5 channel amp back in, "maybe keep tube for center" as like we had talked before the other channels are a little overkill, besides not being very practical as far as heat and having to many amps to turn on. LOL! These really are a very nice speaker with a great real wood exterior cabinet. The only thing that bugs me slightly is they are not mirror image so I may take a pair that I use for the mains and turn the cabinet upside down to get the woofer at the top then take the midrange/tweeter out and put then in a seperate smaller cabinet fixed to the cabinet sitting just above the woofer. Either that or I may try stacking 2 with the top set upside down while using 2 amps, that way you kinda get mirror image sets. "double advent style" |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6904 Registered: May-04 | I don't think I've ever seen anyone describe McIntosh as "edgy". I am guessing the Jolida requires 6L6 tubes; or have you decided to experiment with different tube types? I ask because I don't understand, " ... for the bottom, without mucking up the midrange and high end too much." The bottom? What am I missing here? If I'm supposed to be remembering something here, I'm sorry but I don't. Why would you be "mucking up" the mids and highs? The 6L6 tube is typically referred to as either a beam power tube or as a tetrode. (Ocassionally I've seen it called a pentode, but that is not a correct description of the 6L6 tube type.) The concept of the beam power tube was to create a tube which would be compact in size, produce higher power than a triode and a lower distortion product than a pentode. By putting "beam power vacuum tube" into a search engine, you should get several articles describing how this was accomplished. While vacuum tubes are inherently the most linear amplification device available, the 6L6 tube, and its variants, have a "kink" in the upper harmonic structure. The KT-66 was a European design that eliminated the "kink". Therefore the designation "Kinkless Tetrode". Trying to explain the difference in sound quality between all 6L6's and all KT-66's is like describing the difference between all ribbon tweeters and all isodynamic tweeters. You can make broad statements that can be contradicted by any particular variety of tube. In general, the KT-66 will be a slightly more neutral tube though that is very dependent upon the circuit the tube is placed in. The "kink" in a 6L6 is in the upper harmonics and not generally audible with most music material. So do not let that dissuade you from looking at 6L6 designs also. If the choice is between an excellent 6L6 and a less well done KT-66, I'd easily take the 6L6 (and have on many ocassions). The 6L6, as you have discovered, is the more popular tube type. Lots of guitar amplifiers still use 6L6 tubes because of their "typical" sound. While not much used in consumer audio, the 6L6 has dedicated followers who believe it to be the ideal tube which combines the sweetness of the best EL34's with the punch of the best 6550's. Top this off with lower distortion (mostly even order harmonics and low I.M. distortion) than either of those tubes and the 6L6 is a potent package. If you are reading about tubes which are patterned after the "classic" RCA or Slyvania designs, you will find a tube with a bit of emphasis on the deep bass and a not overbearing or thin treble. Newer tube designs have been produced for the guitar amplifier market and will probably not have the bottom end response of the best 6L6 designs. (Though, as I said, that is a very broad statement that can be proven false in several cases.) The Golden Dragon KT-66 was one of the best tubes I've heard in my system. While not a totally new design, it was patterned after the Gold Lions from the 1960's, it was not a completely traditional design either. I've used tubes long enough, and heard enough solid state, that I consider tubes to be neutral and transistors to be wrong in most cases. Therefore, the idea of "giving up" high end is not anything I consider with tubes. To me there is no "tube sound". There is sound that is wrong, but not necessarily due to the use of tubes. Ideally you should be looking for a neutral sound unless you are intentionally adding colorations to the sound. In this respect, I consider the 6L6 to be an excellent tube and the KT-66 (in it's best examples) slightly better if the tube is inherently better. I've had Chinese KT-66's which couldn't hold a candle to a good 6L6. However the two best output tubes I've had in my Mac MC-240 amplifiers have both been KT-66's. I'm currently running Svetlana's and I think the sound is terrific. Stay away, however, from the Sovtek 5881's. They are a poor sub for the 6L6 and, in my experience, have a short lifespan. The best advice on trying new tubes is to buy from someone who will work with you and give you specific information as available. Remember the tube is only a portion of the gain/output circuit and will respond differently to different circuit topology, transformer types and bias voltage/current. One note to mention that is critically important, make certain the bias voltage for your amp is in line with the maximum voltage allowed for the tube you want to use. Never push the tube's bias voltage or current or you will shorten the life of the tube and possibly cause damage to the amplifier. If your amplifier has adjustable bias, you can alter the sound of the tube slightly by adjusting the bias around the center voltage. There is no way someone can tell you what a particular tube sounds like in any given amplifier unless they have heard that combination. General descriptions can help you choose what tube you should try. However, only buy tubes from a shop which will allow a sideways swap should the tube you pick not be to your liking. That is unless you are very certain what you have chosen is the tube sound you want to hear. I recommend the Svetlana tubes as a very good choice. Buy a matched quad set. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2688 Registered: Dec-03 | As usual well said JAN in tubeville! And I would just reiterate something that he's said and that is there are general charicteristics about tubes but they do not hold true in every circumstance or every curcuit let alone have the same reaction to every system or every speaker, so your milage may vary! I still have yet to try a kt-66 just because I don't have the cash for good ones. "about the only tube tube I don't have" ---------------------------------------- Dakulis I'm sure that combo will sound wonderful, if I was you I'd be going crazy waiting for all this to get together, so do fill us in when you get it together. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 667 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, Good to hear from you. I owe you thanks on your recommendation on the RCA 12AX7 tubes. I was able to find a pair of NOS at a local shop that specializes in vintage gear. They are worlds better than the EH and Sylvanias I've tried. Hope all is well. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2690 Registered: Dec-03 | 2C SUPP! Good to hear there workin out. Hope all is well with you to sir! |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 17 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan: I used "edgy" to describe the 6100 in comparison to the jolida which sounds "warm" too me (my wife described it as "lush," but it doesn't drink too much). (Words are strange creatures.) I suspect I have been seduced by the joldia's sound. Many thanks for your opinion of the 6L6s. I am learning. I also appreciate the idea of "neutral sound." That phrase reminds me of my reaction to the Lings when I heard them with the jolida: I thought that a veil had been lifted off the music and the sound opened up. I do not remember if the veil metaphor comes from Hawthorne or a review of Tim's speakers that I read, but it describes my experience. |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 18 Registered: Apr-05 | I am trying to learn a new (audio) vocabulary and my word choices are not always correct/ clear in meaning (as you all may have noticed). I am trying to correct this problem. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6906 Registered: May-04 | Yep, that veil thing originated with "The Scarlet Letter". |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3828 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi, Kegger! Good to read your posts again. Old dogs seems to have come full circle. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2691 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes John thanks for the welcome, sorry to not have gotten back with you. You know how things go! Take care sir! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 741 Registered: May-05 | Still waiting on the ALs to be reconed but I am enjoying the education on tubes so keep it up all. Thanks, Dave. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3830 Registered: Dec-03 | Take care, Kegger! I am slow to respond partly because I am getting e-mail notifications many days after the posts. It could be a full mail-box. Also I have less time these days. But I still read with interest. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2692 Registered: Dec-03 | It's not you John it's the site, I don't recieve the emails till later also. |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 19 Registered: Apr-05 | A joyous noel to you all. Peace. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 757 Registered: May-05 | RAC, Kegger, John A, Jan and Company, Likewise, a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and best wishes for each of you and your families. From the great white northwest. Dave |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7005 Registered: May-04 | Buon Natale, amici. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2693 Registered: Dec-03 | Same here guy's, safe and happy holidays! |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 70 Registered: Aug-05 | A Blessed Holiday everyone!! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3831 Registered: Dec-03 | Season's greetings to all on "Tube Talk". |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 804 Registered: Dec-04 | God bless us, everyone. I would like to offer a toast to all the people we have lost this year. Whether on this thread of away, we all have prayers to say for loved ones we have lost. A prayer for those departed, and a strong hopeful wish for those still toiling, in body and spirit, to make, and sustain a strong bond with the people we love and cherish. Peace |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 760 Registered: May-05 | Well, The tubes have arrived and it is a somewhat joyous and solemn occasion. The Fisher X202 amp is incredible looking, sounding and it's a behemoth. It must weigh 60 plus pounds. The solemn part is that one of Altec Lansing Stonehenge IIs is absolutely perfect after the reconing and it sounds simply fantastic. This would be about as close as you can get to a stereo, audio nirvana, especially for what I have invested in this set-up, BUT the other AL did not fare so well. It appears that the cone drivers will need to be replaced or the speaker completely rebuilt to solve a bass response that is scratchy and not pleasant at all in some songs while pretty dang discrete in others, which allows me to get a feel for what this system may do when perfected. All I can say is WOW!! My friend said to try it with the Ascends just for fun but that I'll never, ever put them in this system again after hearing the ALs at decent volume. So, far, he could not be more correct. Even with the one speaker at about 60% efficiency and it eliciting a funny hissing type sound, the tube sound is back and it is almost to die for, well OK maybe not that good, but it's at least as good as bad sEx, OK? (Yes, I know that's an oxymoron for all you guys out there. LOL with MCOMN) |
|
Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 388 Registered: Feb-05 | Jan, Kegger and everyone else hope you guys had a nice holiday! I have a inquiry for you bottleheads. I saw a website www.MacAlister Audio.com where they have stereo tube amps as well as preamps for $500-600. This is realistically within my budget, which plans for a sweet sounding 2 channel music system in the coming year. The usual asking price for a good tube amp(new or kit) is several thousand, which is definately not within my budget. If I could get into a pre amp and amp,new finished or kit for about $1200 or less this would be ideal. These were of a wattage output that I think would satisfy my needs. Im looking for about 15W or higher. What do any of you think about these products? Thank you greatly for any response! |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7056 Registered: May-04 | Dak & ER - Things are still a bit busy from the holidays, but here are just a few notes. Congrats, Dak, on the amplifier. I am not familiar with the X202, so keep us posted on your progress. Any details would be helpful. ER - Let me ask why you chose the MacAlister Audio products. Was it just for the price? I get a little uneasy with new amplifiers that use mostly NOS tubes. As the web site notes, the amps can be modified to accept other tubes but the designer has picked the original tubes for a reason. What happens if the designer/manufacturer no longer is in business? My typical recommendation for anyone entering the tube world for the first time would be to look at a well known vintage product. Personally I think everyone interested in audio should, at some time in their life, own a Dynaco ST-70 and a PAS 3ax. These are still reasonably priced on the market, parts are easily available and the aftermarket modifications/updates allow you to take the two units to almost any level of performance you would imagine while working with a budget. There are plenty of other vintage pieces out there that are well known for their quality but the Dyna gear has been a solid recommendation for 40 years. Buy it, listen to it and sell it for what you have in it or even more depending on the market. If you don't find something to like in a ST-70, then tubes are not for you. There is also the possibility of merely pre owned tube products. An Audible Illusions pre amp was on Audiogon in your price range a while back. I can personally vouch for the sound quality of that unit. A Conrad Johnson Premier product (amp or pre amp) will usually fall in the price range you are looking at. Just a few ideas to consider. If you are not aware fo the issue, there is a decision between old school and new school tubes that you should make before you decide what you are going to buy. Also for the price range you are in, there are a few made in China (boo!) amps that might fit your budget. |
|
Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 389 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks in spades Jan much appreciated! The answer to your question is yes price was the primary consederation, I need to stay around $1500 for amp and preamp. I'm aware of the Dynaco and have heard of CJ as well. I checked out Ebay just the other day and they had several Dynaco's for around $500 each, this is probably my best route, my other is a good 2 channel ss amp which there is a plethora of brands I have knowledge about. Thanks again for your suggestion. I value your experience and knowledge of tube amps,and audio in general, while we don't always agree I think you are a great asset to this forum. I am much less familiar with tube amps,brandwise, than ss designs. Have a happy new year! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3837 Registered: Dec-03 | There are some links on the "CD players" thread Vincent CD Players to suppliers of remarkably inexpensive tube amps and CD players, some of which (such as Shanling) seem to get very positive reviews in magazines. |
|
Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 394 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks John for the link! I will have to say also that an "upscale",but affordable cd player will surely be a must as well when I put together a 2 channel system. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3839 Registered: Dec-03 | Eric, I had in mind your interest in amps. From that thread the link http://www.ornec.com/ for example has many inexpensive tube amps. See "Yarland" for example. Most names are unknown, at least to me. The story seems to be that such retailers distribute equipment made on China, some of which is far more expensive when carrying more well-known badges, and when sold through well-established dealers. I would not disagree with Jan, but there are clearly some quality units coming out of China these days. Shanling is highly rated and relatively expensive. My own China-made PrimaLuna amp came from a recognised UK retailer and Netherlands distributor. I doubt if you automatically get lower quality from names less well known in Europe and N. America. China now has its own, growing home market of discerning "audiophiles", I am sure. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7063 Registered: May-04 | It is the "Made in China" mentality (and possible conditions) I object to, not the products per se. |
|
Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 396 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks again John for your help! I do hear where Jan is coming from 100%. Sadly this is the trend. American makers of good quality products in general and makers of good audio products,such as HK, design their product in the US but have it built overseas under sometimes deplorable conditions. This invariably results in lower quality despite a definite cost savings. No more readily apparent is this with HK which built their products in the US during the 50's and 60's(finest quality especially Citation) and shifted to Japan for manufacturing during the 70's(still good quality) now building products in China(lowest cost but least quality as previous decades). I believe this has less of an effect in the UK John but Jan and I, I'm sure would agree that offshoring is hurting the US economy. Not to be rude but I'dont really want to get into economic/political discussion at this time as I have to prepare for the New Years Eve festivities. I"ll drink to both of you this eve, thanks again and good evening gentlemen. |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 910 Registered: Dec-04 | Well spoken Eric Happy and safe new years for your family and yourself! Jan I couldnt agree more, it's not always about the destination, but the road taken, and how paved. Peace |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3840 Registered: Dec-03 | Happy New Year, all! Anyone who likes could visit the threads Speakers made in China or Is Onkyo a Japanese company?. I do not have anything new to say on that subject, and, yes, it leads off topic. Just that it is interesting that tube amps are a case in point. Kegger, this morning I received e-mail notification of your post of Monday, December 19, 2005 - 04:33 am...! The header has the line: Received: (qmail 7610 invoked by uid 0); Mon, 19 Dec 2005 04:35:03 -0500 Then my mail server received it on Sun, 01 Jan 2006 01:04:38 -0800 (PST) I can't see the point of that queue. Hmmm.... Good luck, Eric, whatever you decide. Please let us know! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3844 Registered: Dec-03 | And Happy New Year to Rick Barnes, who started this thread. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 30 Registered: Nov-05 | Hello, I'm considering purchaseing an integrated tube amp but have few options for auditioning in my area. I was able to listen to a 40w Jolida and liked the sound. I also listened to a much more expensive Audio Research but didn't like it so much. I was wondering if anyone could advise as to which brands and models under $1500. are worth looking at. Are there any that I should stay away from? Also, I recently spoke with a Jolida engineer who stated that amps with auto-biasing produced more distortion. Is this true? I read in a Primaluna review that this circuit actually reduced distortion considerabley. Also, what speakers would be suitable matches for tube amps in this price range? I know I asked a lot, but any feedback will be greatly appreciated as I will probably have to order an amp w/o hearing it first. Thank you, Bill |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7067 Registered: May-04 | First you'll have to tell us why you did not like the Audio Research amplifier. Tube amps are not all alike and liking one over another is permissable but knowing what you like about one vs. another is much more important. Did you hear the amplifiers in the same system or were the components (and room) different? The technician must have been trying to sell his product. There are advantages to fixed bias and to adjustable bias. If you can deal with a reputable company when buying tubes, there should be no significant difference in performance between the two circuits when used as the manufacturer suggests. Like most things in audio, it is how the circuit is applied rather than the circuit itself that matters. http://www.tubedepot.com/whisbipo.html http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/ The speakers you prefer are personal taste. Since most tube amplifiers will have output transformers which allow the amplifier to match the overall impedance of a speaker, you should really only concern yourself (at this point) with finding a speaker that maintains a fairly even impedance curve. Scroll back through this thread and you will find a link to another article about matching tube amplifiers to speakers. It was provided by Timn8ter to a question similar to yours. In most cases, I would not recommend buying any component you have not auditioned in your own system. |
|
Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1274 Registered: Dec-03 | Thank you John, and Happy New Year to you and all I consider forum friends. I am on a friends computer, and thought I would just check in. I am pleased to see there is still an interest in tubes. I should get around to buying a new computer soon, and will update you all on the Barnes clan. PS-Good to see Rantz and Kegger are posting! |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 31 Registered: Nov-05 | Thank you for responding Jan, I listened to the two amps in different locations, with different components, under different conditions, so I know it wasn't an accurate comparison. What I liked about the Jolida was in the midrange on up. So smooth, clean, and pleasant. It just seemed to have a glow to it that I really enjoyed. The lower ranges lacked deffinition and impact. I'm not sure if I'm using proper terminology, but I think that describes it. The Audio Research seemed to me to do bass better, but lacked that glow or sense of sweetness that I remember from the Jolida. So, I guess it's that warm glow I'm after. Unfortunately, I have not found any dealers in my area that are knowlegeable with regard to tube amps and only steer me in the direction of the one model they carry and then trash other brands that they don't carry, or claim they are unfamiliar with any others. I agree that it's not advisable to purchase w/o auditioning first, but I may not have a choice. Therefore, I'd like to identify a handfull of amps to research and then hopefully find a way to hear a few if possible before deciding on a purchase. I don't want a tube amp that tries to emulate solid state. So my question at this point is which models in this price range ($700-$1500) are known to be of good quality with that classic "tube sound" if there is such a thing. The terms I've heard others use include "liquid" or "lush". That seems accurate to me. I assume that there must be some models that have gained a reputation among people in a position to know such as yourself, who have a lot of experience with tubes. At least that will give me a place to start since I am completely new to tubes, but apparently have been bitten by the tube bug. Thank you very much, Bill |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3845 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, Wonderful to hear from you. All news eagerly awaited! Bill, Rick has a Jolida, I forget the model, but was really pleased with it. I have a PrimaLuna Prologue Two, and ditto. Same for "Two Cents". It has self-adjusting bias. There are other PL models now, including separate pre- and power- amplifiers with similar specs to the component parts of the integrated amps. There are many possibilities in the price range you mention. Jan has previously suggested, also, considering buying used; a good idea, but you have to have come courage, especially with items such as tube amps. But you would only get a "classic" tube name and design that way, as far as I am aware, in that price range. This thread is long, but I think contains plenty of good advice and observations. It has also helped to make more than a few converts, me included. So all thanks, again, to Rick B. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 32 Registered: Nov-05 | Hello John, Thank you for your comments. I'd be very interested in hearing more about your Primaluna. I've read some reviews which sound interesting, but I'm wary of giving too much weight to reviews. There are no dealers in my area so I would have to order one from California and would not be able to audition it first. I'd be interested in knowing how it compares to Jolida and Sophia, or any others that you could recommend interms of sound and reliability. Also, what speakers pair well with them. I understand that personal preference plays a major role, but would be interested in hearing your opinion. Thank you. Bill |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7075 Registered: May-04 | You have to understand that the final "sound" of a tube based amplifier (or pre amp) will be determined not only by what the designer has done in the way of circuitry and parts selsction but also by what tubes you choose to use in the amplifier. While there is a most decided difference between old and new school tube design, there are many amplfiiers which cross the line between both types of sound quality. (As an aside that these guys are probably tired of hearing, the McIntosh MC275 tube based amplifier from the 1960's has been reissued by Mac and is currently on the Sterophile list of recommended components in class A for tube amps. It also received a terrific review in the current Absolute Sound. This is, for all intents, a forty plus year old design.) One advantage tube users have over transistor based products is the ability to alter the sound of the final product to suit your own taste by changing the tubes within the circuit. If you will get on a web page for a tube dealer you will find descriptions that indicate a tube is meant to emulate the sound of a tube made during the "Golden Age" of tubes back in the 1950-60's. Depending on the bias, the output configuration and the power supply design, placing a tube designed to sound like a classic Sylvania 6L6GC in a new school amplifier will restore some of the old school sound to the amplifier. Looking for an amplifier with tube rectification will go a long way to getting you the old school sound in a contemporary package. And, of course, there are the NOS (new old stock) tubes that exist from the old school period. The Jolida seems to do a good job of combining the old and new school ideas while not costing an arm and a leg. There are also many dealers for the restored old school products which will give you a different look and sound to your system. And, of course, there's always the DIY market. http://www.nbizz.com/soundsclassic/listings.html http://www.ultraelectronicactive.com/StarGarTubeAmps.html http://www.vintagetubeservices.com/ http://boozhoundlabs.com/howto/ http://fisherdoctor.com/index.html http://www.lh-electric.4t.com/tutorials.htm http://www.juicymusicaudio.com/index.html http://www.wright-sound.com/ http://www.tubeworld.com/index_low_holiday.htm http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/electronics_main.php As you can see, there are plenty of options to consider when choosing a tube based amplifier. I'm afraid you'll have to do some work to figure out what might suit your needs. Use the links I've provided and do some reading and calling. You'll discover the thing about most tube dealers is they love to talk about their products. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 33 Registered: Nov-05 | Thank you Jan. It looks like I've got my work cut out for me. I'll start checking out those links. Cheers, Bill |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7080 Registered: May-04 | "The terms I've heard others use include "liquid" or "lush". That seems accurate to me." Actually "lush" and "accurate" are a difficult pair to get together. One last thought on your search. If you are looking for an amplifier that brings some romanticism to the music without destroying the sense of realism any good component should possess, you might concentrate your search on products from Italy and France. National sounds are difficult to generalize, but the romantic languages tend to bring forth romanticism in the way music is portrayed also. Quite a few stuffy American products tend to dry the sound out too much, even when exploiting tubes. Though I have not had enough experience to make broad sweeping statements regarding third world tube amps, my guess is they are a study in what will sell in the Western countries. None of which is necessarily bad; just a different mind set. |
|
Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 122 Registered: Nov-05 | Rick Good to see you back here also - All the best to you and your clan for 2006. Still no tubes for me - at my age I think they should be tied. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 761 Registered: May-05 | Gentlemen, Well, the Fisher X202 has been in play for almost a week with sweet sounds emanating from it. It is a 20 wpc tube amp and I'm not running a pre/pro. It's a pretty simple set-up. The speakers are connected via decent 14 gauge speaker wire to the amp and there's a couple decent Monster interconnects to the Arcam DIVA CDP from the amp. I haven't had the cover off to see what tubes it's running because of being busy, family commitments and lack of time. This tube amp and the Altecs present such a large, full sound compared to the 7.1 Denon 3803 or the Adcom GFA-7607, even at 110 wpc and 125 wpc, respectively, in the HT set-up, although I haven't used either of them to drive the Altecs, and probably won't. (Too much of a hassle to disconnect, move, reconnect, etc. and why mess with near perfection anyway. LOL) The one Altec speaker is still somewhat of a problem, more on some CDs than others and the Arcam Diva CDP just seems to do its job well. When a CD does not have a tremendous amount of bass going on, you can hear how incredibly pure, liquid and lush the tube sound can be, although I've already decided that I can't live with the one speaker having this problem over the long term so I'm going to have them both rebuilt with identical parts. (The speaker puts out a low bass hiss/scratchy sound.) It should be worth the additional $200 or so investment to bring the speakers up to original spec. In the meantime, my friend will loan me his 30 year old Klipsch Heritage speakers that he's not using right now as a substitute until the Altecs are repaired. I'll report more on the sound of the Klipschs when I hear them. Also, Tim should be sending me a pair of his Emmas, which I'll report on each of these speakers compared to Altecs and my Ascend 170s. Well, it's back to work I go. Happy New Year and take care all. Dave. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 34 Registered: Nov-05 | Thank you Jan, Sorry to be such a pest, but could you let me know the names of some of those Italian and French manufacturers? Or any others you feel might be worth looking into. Thanks again, Bill |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7088 Registered: May-04 | Sorry, no; the distribution of products into this country is always changing. Jadis is an old standby of French tubes, but a bit pricey. Pathos and Nightingale are both Italian amplifiers. Unison, while mostly hybrid technology in their integrated amplifiers is probably the best known of the Italian brands and has garnered worldwide praise. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 35 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks so much Jan. I'll check those out. Any consensus on Amps such as Primaluna 1&2 vs. Jolida or Sophia? Bill |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7089 Registered: May-04 | No, you have to do that yourself. Use the World Tube Directory I linked to in an earlier post to get some insight. As an aside, I did see a report that the trade deficit between the US and China is expected to increase by approximately 70% in the year 2005 alone. Interestingly, there were no figures provided that indicated an amount the average worker in China could expect to see their income rise. Clearly an oversight of the reporter. Make of that what you will. One more tube amplifier is not going to significiantly change either figure. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 36 Registered: Nov-05 | Something to consider though. Thanks for all of your help, Bill |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3846 Registered: Dec-03 | Bill, Sorry to be slow, and there is not much I can say in a few words. I am very pleased with the PL2; everything sounds more "fluid" (Rick's word originally, I think) and lifelike than with the Sony transistor amp it replaced. The PL2 received outstanding reviews in the UK mag I read (and do not not entirely believe) HiFi News. Also "Two Cents" in San Francisco has one. I auditioned one with my Quad ESL 63 speakers (an old design and model I acquired earlier last year, second-hand). It must be an unusual combination. I have not done any survey of competing makes and models. The PL2 is hugely heavy and extremely well-made, and conventionally-made (steel cage; aluminium front plate) in comparison to most hifi units one sees these days. I am going to try to resist getting into this "Made in China" question, but just let me say that one has to be very determined to find "consumer electronics" made anywhere else, these days, which must be part of the explanation of the trade deficit. If buying US-made (or France- or Italy-made) is important to someone, I respect that, but look very carefully to make sure it really is. Things are not always as they seem! |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 37 Registered: Nov-05 | Thank you John, Glad to hear you're happy with the PL2. Did you happen to compare it to the PL1? I was wondering what the difference might be in sound. Also, are you happy with the amount of bass control and deffinition? I'm used to solid state, but fell in love with the sound of the mids on this little Jolida I heard. Not sure if I would be happy in the long run with the loss of bass control of that particular amp, I think it was the JD 202A. I'm hoping that other models may provide a better bottom end without losing that magic in the midrange. Are the KT88's as "liquid" sounding as the EL-34's? I was originally going to buy a NAD C272/C162 combo. But while waiting for it to come in I heard that litte tube amp and then started reading the disscussions on this thread, and now I don't think I can go back to SS. I think I'm hooked on tubes, (but limited by budget). It has been really interesting and informative following everyone's comments here, but as a result, I think I have been hopelessly corrupted! Thanks again for your feedback, Bill |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 762 Registered: May-05 | Bill, Do not rule out a vintage amp that has been rebuilt by someone who knows what they're doing. I was fascinated with the Jolida early on but this 1960s era, rebuilt Fisher is a monster and really does wonders with only 20 wpc. And, I'm only into it for about $410 although I am certain that my friend charged me almost nothing for his labor on the rebuild. Anyway, you can find some very nice vintage HKs and Fishers on Audiogon and eBay for decent prices and if you can find a reputable person to rebuild it your budget will go much further, IMHO. Good luck, Dave. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 38 Registered: Nov-05 | Thank you Dave. I'll definitly check that out. Bill |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3847 Registered: Dec-03 | Bill, I was advised that the Prologue Two with its five extra Watts and KT88 output valves would be a better choice with my speakers, and I am sure that was right. I tried to borrow a prologue One but both dealers said the TWo was the better choise. If I had had the money I might have bought the new but "retro" Quad II-forty (link with additional info) but it is about 3.5 x the price. That would have been partly my own brand loyalty, even though Quad is no longer a true independent, and indeed is Chinese-owned. Only the low-volume "niche" ESL speakers are still made in Huntingdon, Cambs, if I recall correctly. Quad is another "vintage" make you might consider for amplifiers, but McIntosh could well be a better bet. For one thing there will be more of them, certainly in the US. Jan will know much more than I about this. So the PL2 was my "entry-level" choice and I have no regrets, nor am I contemplating an upgrade any time. I think 2c tried EL34s in his Prologue Two and he could comment on any difference compared with the original KT88s. I am still on all-original valves/tubes after six months or so of daily use. It is actually our default amp even for TV. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3848 Registered: Dec-03 | "Also, are you happy with the amount of bass control and deffinition? " Yes. Ample. Smooth. Rich. Warm. Yet rapid-response. Detailed. In balance with the rest. Natural. The speakers go down to about 35 Hz. This may be one area where the KT88 offers advantages over the EL34, since this is where most power is consumed; but I don't know. This applies to all sources except digital radio, but there is probably nothing you can do with that. The lovely natural bass is one obvious reason for my preferring FM stereo to digital. Also, the ESL speakers are generally acknowledged to be "Revealing" meaning they do benefit from a quality amp, and that is what I strongly suspect I now have. In theory the speakers require notional 50 W p.c. and the PL2 is rated at 40 but it has never shown any signs of strain. Effortless. The old speaker-maker's point of view "get the most powerful amp you can afford and go easy on the gain" does not really apply. A tube Watt seems to be worth more than a solid state Watt. That must, strictly, be wrong, but it is the impression you get. It may have to do with odd-order vs even-order distortion (Jan...?) but I am not aware of distortion at all. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 39 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks John. I'm leaning toward the PL2. Will have to mail order it though if I do decide to get it. The Quad looks enticing, but way over budget at this time. How well do you think the PL2 will do with 4 ohm speakers rated at 90db? I don't listen at very loud levels, but would like to make sure I get good sound at moderate volumes in a fairly small room (10'X15'). thanks again, Bill |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 771 Registered: May-05 | OK guys, I had some time with the Fisher X202, 25 wpc I discovered, BUT these must be King Kong watts because there's no way this amp counts its watts like the SS receiver and amp I have. This thing outweighs my 125 wpc Adcom, 7.1 amp by a smidge. More importantly, I LOVE TUBES. Geez, I had forgotten this sound. Buttery, smooth, fluid, warm, detailed, scrumptious, "liquid and lush," as I believe MR called these wonderful little glassy things. WOW, I spent some time last night with my buddy's Heritage series Klipsch, although I'm still trying to figure out the model and what it is. I was not overly enthusiastic about these speakers on first listen. IMHO, they do jazz OK but not nearly as well as the ALs. They simply don't have the smooth and warm bass of the ALs and I didn't feel that they voiced the mids as well. Plus, I just had to get used to the horns and how they portray the music. Then, I listened to a decent CD of Holsts "The Planets" and I was mesmerized by Mars and Saturn, which have quite a number of horns and winds. BOY, these little puppies really imaged well on these tracks and the realness and pureness of these instruments sent chills down my spine. I could have listened for hours on end over and over. It was an incredible experience and hasn't been heard or felt in many, many years. So, I'm beginning to like these little Klipsch intruders BUT I don't think they'll ever replace the warmness and fullness that I get out of the ALs. The ALs simply match up well with tubes and I had forgotten how well they do this. Some had told me that the ALs were a little too "bright" for their taste but that disappears when they're matched with a decent tube amp and this Fisher amp is more than decent. So, now I need to pull the cover off and see what I've got driving it, then I need to go back to the beginning of this thread and read everything you folks have talked about, then I need to learn about tube rolling and then I have to figure out how to bias this amp and play with it even more to allow it to meet my tastes. I will check in occasionally and report more but I'm still in the learning curve, I suspect. Dave |
|
Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 25 Registered: Aug-05 | bill..and hey you all i just thought of offering my opinion on the primaluna one which i have owned for 6 months,,,, wow,,it is actually driving my maggies 1.6 to very fine levels of volume,,in a 26 by 13 size room,,,maggies are known for midrange magic and meshes beautifully with the primaluna one ,,i prefer el 34's tubes of the one.. [I found the primaluna one warmer then the 2],,I also use the speaker outputs on my sub to add a subwoofer.to the setup..and all maggies all around for home theater,,prima one amp driving front speakers of home theater using my nad pre outs on my reciever..and switching to 2 channel for primaluna on its own,, final piece is a cary dvd 6 ,,amazing quality from cary in 2 channel..and home theater..,,,thanks,,just my 2 cents on this fine amp..check reviews here ,,click on magazine reviews here http://www.upscaleaudio.com/view_category.asp?cat=36 take care vince |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3850 Registered: Dec-03 | Bill, "How well do you think the PL2 will do with 4 ohm speakers rated at 90db? " No problem. Both the PL2 and PL1 have separate outputs - "taps" for 4 ohm and 8 ohm speakers. I think the less expensive 35W PL1 would be fine for those requirements. I know some, like vince, prefer its EL34 output tubes, though I cannot comment from personal experience. My own speakers are 86 dB. One point about the PrimaLuna amps is that they sell through fairly up-market audio "salons" and I think this is good provided you actually get the service and support that their mark-up covers. If you are interested in mail order at retail price, phone the dealer and check them out. Ask for their advice based on the other equipment you have and your listening requirements. Make sure you can return the unit and get a refund if dissatisfied for any reason (thought I don't think you will be). The first unit I tried have some cross-talk between input channels. The dealer said this was the first problem unit of a dozen or so he'd sold, and in fact the PL MD e-mailed me (after I'd registered the second, faultless one) and the UK distributor to apologise and swear this was previously unknown, a "one-off". The dealer replaced the original without question (really it was in "ex-demo condition) and was also happy to provide, free, a quality replacement UK mains lead/power cord (in the second, sealed box was one with continental plug). This sort of service is good to have - these guys all value their reputations. Mail order can be a different question. vince, Great! Just a suggestion; try connecting the amp to the tape outputs on the NAD receiver. They are passive and will do nothing to the signal, even by-passing its volume control. The receiver may not even need to be on to pass the signal through. Also, you will have PL1 volume control in full command. If you need the pre-amp outs for HT, you can give those to a different amp input, and you can switch between inputs, to compare. Good to hear the PL1 works with Magnepan 1.6. I have read people worry about enough power with those speakers. Probably you use the 4 ohm taps. Like Dave says, we must have "King Kong" Watts. Very strange. I alsways thought a Watt was a Watt. Dave, Just great to read that. Yes, I have heard my speakers, too, described as harsh and "too revealing" - I know think that is because they have the ability to expose some solid state amps for what they are. I play old, familiar CDs, and hear new, interesting and exciting things every single time on my current system. "The Planets" - yes, big orchestral stuff continually amazes me. There is so much going on in there that I never heard before. Inner parts; bits of percussion; quiet instruments still there and not drowned out when everything else is ff. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3852 Registered: Dec-03 | New thread from Paul Folbrecht PrimaLuna 70W Monoblocks (Model 7). |
|
Bronze Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 11 Registered: Dec-05 | Hello to all! As way of introduction, I'm a guy that's been a audiophile for 15+ years but just got interested in new two months ago and just bought a new system within the last week, inluding a pair of the PrimaLuna 70W monoblocks and a PL3. Speakers are Joseph Audio rm25s I bought demo for cheap and a Sunfire super junior sub. Source is a MiniMax CD. I'm not going to post a full review just yet but I will say that my expectation were met, in full. I first fell in love with 'tube sound' listening to a friend's old McIntosh last summer, was wowed by the high-end conrad-johnson gear I've heard more recently, and the PLs are giving me what I was looking for. I was able to run my new speakers and source with my older Marantz monoblocks before the PL gear arrived so I know exactly what effect the amps are having on my sound - and I like. One thing I've been doing the last couple weeks is reading this whole monster thread! I'm on the third page of the archives and it's been great! J., Kegger, Rick, & the rest - I feel like I know all you guys already. I do think I'm seriously hooked on tubes for life, and now it's a bit depressing that I've bought the gear! But, in the next year I may build a budget $1500 system for the garage/shop (where I spend a lot of time building an airplane) and will look very closely at the wonderful little Jolida and whatever else there is in the sub-$700 price range at that time. (Q: What's a great under $500 source?!) I've got about 20 hours on the PL gear as of now. When I have about double that I spend a few hours doing nothing but listening and jotting down notes and then post a full 'review' (for whatever it's worth from this newbie non-expert). Cheers! Tubes 4 ever. ~Paul |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7106 Registered: May-04 | Paul - As a matter of information, this thread actually came out of the discussion of tubes that began on the "Teaching Old Dogs ... " thread under the DVD/SACD portion of the forum. That thread has over 6200 posts and not all concern tubes. But, if you are ever layed up with a broken leg and have a month or so to wander through some "interesting" information, I would suggest you spend some time on that thread also. Having said that, I wouldn't suggest anyone wade through that thread. The best source for under $500 tube gear is the used market. |
|
Bronze Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 12 Registered: Dec-05 | I have a couple questions and I figured this is about the best place to ask them. What I posted above is my music system; I will also be sharing the PL 7s and the speakers and sub for home theater, driven by my Rotel 1068 pre/pro and Rotel DVD source. My plan has been to run the 1068 through the PL 3 preamp, to the power amps, as suggested by Kevin at Upscale Audio. This is fine, but it begs a couple questions. 1) I've read many times that a SS pre-section thru tube power is not a great idea. Makes sense - the preamp has the most affect on the sound. So, will going from the SS Rotel thru the PL 3 "add" "tubitivity" to the sound...? Will I still have "SS sound" going to the monoblocks? Will it matter? (This is ONLY for movies, of course. For music, the MiniMax is my source which goes right to the 3 - no Rotel gear in the mix anywhere!!.) 2) It seems that hooking up my powered Sunfire sub to both the PL 3 and the Rotel (to get proper 5.1 sound the sub should really be connected to the AV processor) is not dirt-simple. A simple Y-cable arrangement will not work because then the PL is attempting to "drive" the Rotel preamp thru its sub output. A switch of some type seems to be necessary - though I hate the idea. Suggestions here? Thanks... ~Paul |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7110 Registered: May-04 | For Ht use; running the Rotel through the PL3 by way of what outputs and inputs? You do not want too many locations where the levels can be changed. Preferably one volume control is all that is needed. Running from the tape outs to bypass the vc on the Rotel will not pass anything more than straight two channel audio; Dolby Digital or DTS signals will not be processed before they arrive at the PL3 if taken from the tape outputs. Running from the pre outs of the Rotel puts its vc in the signal path of the pre amp which has its own vc. Correct level set could be difficult with this set up. Kegger has a method worked out for his HT/music set up and you might get some input from him on this arrangement. Who told you running a solid state pre amp into a tube power amp is a bad idea? It's been done many a time; most especially in the days of super low output moving coil phono cartridges that required the (usually) quieter phono sections of a transistor pre amp. Your question regarding "tubitivity" seems to imply a coloration existing in the Rotel, and the tube pre amp and power amp. You should know your equipment better than I do, however, I would prefer a signal chain that has minimal colorations applied by the gain stages. None the less, if you feel the pre and power amps are somewhat colored by solid state or tube sound, there is no way to tell you what you should do. If the equipment is colored, you will hear the colorations no matter where they occur. What degree each component affects and overrides the others is going to be your job to determine. This should be viewed as part of the enjoyment of your new system. Trying various combinations to decide what can be achieved by each component to derive the greatest level of performance from each for any given situation should be your pleasure and not viewed as a job you must get through. As the saying goes, suck it and see. You do not want to run a "Y" splitter from both pre amp sections. As you say it would be far too easy to damage one or both should you forget to flip a switch. I would suggest this is a good time to use the high level connection from the power amp to the sub and back out to the speakers. This will usually give you a finer degree of control over the crossover point by using the continuously variable control on the sub. It will, however, negate any remote control options for adjusting the sub level on the fly. This connection assumes the PrimaLuna's are the amplifier driving your front speakers in both music and HT use. If you have thought of using the Rotel for HT and the PrimaLunas for music, then I would suggest you rethink this whole split system arrangment. I think this is anohter case where Kegger has had some experience combining systems and could give you some suggestions based on his experimentation. |
|
Bronze Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 13 Registered: Dec-05 | J., "Running from the pre outs of the Rotel puts its vc in the signal path of the pre amp which has its own vc. Correct level set could be difficult with this set up." That is the plan - go from the Rotel pre-outs to the PL 3 - this is what is recommended by Upscale, incidentally. They recommend setting the PL vol control at 9:00 and leaving it there. I run only the two front speakers (and sub) for movies as well. The PL monoblocks are the ONLY amps I have - that's it. DD and DTS decoded into 2.1 by my processor is all I've ever needed/wanted for movies. The only thing different from my old setup is that instead of the pre-outs of the AV going directly to my Marantz monoblocks (now sold), they'll go through the PL 3 and onto the PL monos. SS pre - tube power section - read a few places that this is counterproductive, doesn't really give you the strengths of tube amplication. The preamp stage is the most important, no? Well, you obviously don't agree, so I will rethink it then. By "tubitivity" I did not mean coloration - only that good 'ole tube goodness! There is such a thing, no? ;-} My point in bringing up that matter is just the above issue - that in this case the pre stage is SS... although, it then goes through the tube pre stage as well. I don't know what affect that will have on the sound - since the signal is already pre-amplified out of the Rotel and into the -3, will the Prologue 3 impart any its characteristics to the signal? (You may be wondering 'why doesn't he just listen' - I'm short one interconnect at the moment. :-}) Anyway, I'll find out just what it sounds like soon enough, but am interested in the 'theoretical' aspects as well. Use the speaker-level inputs on the sub? Really? Admit I had not seriously considered that before. Won't running thru the sub possibly degrade sound quality to some extent...? Well, now I want to experiment with that setup anyway. Thanks for the long and detailed reply. ~Paul |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7117 Registered: May-04 | As I said, the tubes will impart their own character if there is considerable coloration of the sound as it passes through that stage of amplification. The same will be true of the solid state components. Wherever the signal deviates from neutral the rest of the system will amplify that variation. We could split hairs here for quite some amount of time in this discussion. Just what are you listening for that will indicate the "personality" of any one component or the entire system? What you listen for might be different from what I listen for and, in all likelyhood, certainly will be. I consider the Rotel "solid state personality" to be antithetical to the nature of tubes. While it is impossible to make sweeping generalizations about technologies, the sound of the Rotel is overwhelming in its coolness against the perceived warmth of most tube units. Where one unit will bring a tight control over the sound, the other will impart a rhythmic flow that must be obeyed. The transistor unit, in this case, is somewhat forward in its presentational style while the tubes, from all I've read about the PrimaLuna products, are laid back to some degree. The latter is where I have some difficulty when combining tubes and transistors. The overall manner in which the two devices will place objects on the presentational stage tends to fight against either winning the battle unless one strays significantly from the middle. Along with that comes the issue of dynamics. Do performers' emotional swings manage to swell and form or do they merely pop into existence. Are sounds allowed to diminish gradually or do they simply stop. I have repeatedly stated that the way signals start and stop are the important differences most people will notice about the two technologies. So which one wins and which is the furthest from the musical truth? I would guess that at this time there is no solid answer for that question. And, it probably cannot be when someone is still learning a new component. So the best advice is still listen but consider the difference between what you hear from the Rotel vs. the tube units to be an opportunity to question which is truest to the music and not just which is more likeable. Regarding the pre amp being the most important unit; no, I wouldn't agree with that estimation. As I stated above the two technologies may have very dissimilar personalities and which wins is a matter of which is the most incorrect, but enjoyable, in most cases. With that in mind, consider that most source material you will use will be played back from a solid state player. In this case a player which utilizes primarily integrated circuits for its signal processing. If that unit is at the very front of the system and we assume the sound of transistirs to be not like tubes, then what effect does the player have on the rest of the system? I think it better to think of the system as a synergistic whole rather than a combination of individual parts. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3857 Registered: Dec-03 | Paul, I agree with Jan. Especially if you use 2.0 or 2.1. Connecting a sub at speaker level removes some problems with "bass management", too, and may be preferable for other reasons. Just set the subcrossover so it reaches the parts the main speakers can't reach. I think I recommended the tape outputs to vince. By the way, do you know that with modern digital sources you can just miss out a pre-amplifier, and connect the CD player straight into a power amp? A pre-amp is mostly a gain (volume) control combined with a set of switches to select between sources.The pre-amp's own amplification gain becomes important only with phono and other low-voltage input devices. |
|
Bronze Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 14 Registered: Dec-05 | J., 1st, I'm still very much a newb to tubes & learning all I can. 2nd, the system, *for HT use* - IS a bit of a compromise - as far as I know there are no tube AV pre/pros or else they are extremely expensive. So, again, it's built for music, with the Rotel pre/pro (and source) thrown on top for cinema. OTOH, I'd never considered tubes necessary or perhaps even ideal for cinema. I never expected the Rotel to impart no sound - I'm sure that it will. Although, for movie dialog and effects, I don't know what, if any benefit tubes could/would realize.. interesting. I remember Kegger's post about harmonics and tubes vis. SS - the why's of why tubes are more "musical" given that they reinforce the "correct" harmonics (vs. SS). (This is way way back in the archives.) I'm waiting on a TV as well to try the setup with HT. We shall hear what we hear! In the meantime, somebody needs to stop me from ordering another tube amp (Jolida 202) ALREADY... if I had any sense I'd wait a few months or so before updating my garage system (currently powered by a 15 year old Yamaha rcr 35W/ch still running strong). Parting thought - I probably would have been served just as well with the PL 5 35W/ch integrated as the monos. They are capable of driving my moderately-sensitive speakers FAR louder than I care to listen. ~Paul |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 670 Registered: Feb-04 | Bill, Allow me to share some thoughts that may help decide to get the PL2 or not. As John A. noted, I've owned one for about a year now. First, when I was shopping for an amp, I auditioned several. Some cursory thoughts: The Jolidas sound fine. I would've probably been happy owning one. Like you, I find them preferable to the more expensive ARC gear I've listened to. This is a matter of personal taste, but I just don't like the ARC "sound", which I would characterize as analytical and a little on the thin side. The best amp I auditioned was the Conrad Johnson MV60SE with a Conrad Johnson Premier 17 preamp. It sounded magical, taking the best qualities of the Jolida and taking them up a few notches. I'd describe the sound as detailed, liquid with incredibly holographic soundstaging, expecially back-to-front. In a word, it came pretty darn close to live music. But I wasn't about spring to 7 grand for the CJ gear. The PL2 IMO falls in between Jolida and CJ gear. Very roughly speaking it conveys about 90% of the quality of the CJ gear at a quarter of the price. (It's the law of diminishing returns.) I have them driving 4ohm, 89dB speakers with no problems. Bass is tight and full (an advantage over the Jolida I think), even with the EL34 tubes. I swapped the stock KT88 for Svetlana EL34's for a little bit more "presence" in the midrange. I also swapped the stock 12AX7 tubes for NOS RCA12AX7A which gave a bigger improvement than swapping the output tubes. Overall, the PL2 has been a lot of fun to listen to, although I still think about getting that last 10% of sonic magic someday. But for the price, the PL2 delivers in spades. The build quality of the PL2 is not an issue. It's solid as a rock. I've also talked with the owner of Upscale Audio, who distributes the PLs in U.S. Since they started selling the PLs, a total of one amp has been returned as defective. But Jan does bring up a concern I had about the Chinese made gear. As you know, China is notoriously bad when it comes to its labor and environmental record. I decided at the end that the answer isn't to boycott Chinese products, but rather encourage them to become part of the global economy and consequently part of the global community. They rapidly industrializing and will have to face up to the responsibilities of industrializing, just as the U.S. and western Europe did in the 20th century. Anyway, I digress now. Paul, Congrats on your new gear. It appears to be a terrific combo. I look forward to your review. "Q: What's a great under $500 source?" Why not a used Jolida JD100 tube cd player to go with a Jolida amp? Here's a happy and prosperous New Year to you all! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3858 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm glad you chimed in, Two Cents. Glad you did not object to being quoted. Happy New Year! By the way, the audio entrepreneur who designs and distributes PrimaLuna amps is in the Netherlands: www.primaluna.nl BTW We had a guy, Taz, from Tasmania who posted way back with PL questions. Did we get any response? (I do not read and post so much these days.) |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 671 Registered: Feb-04 | John A., I guess that explains why my manual is signed by a Dutchman. If memory serves me, the designers of the PL amps used to design the equipment for an ultra high-end Swiss company, Goldmund or Burmester. I too haven't been able follow this thread as much as I'd like. Don't know the fate of Taz. Cheers |
|
Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 43 Registered: Nov-05 | Thank you Two Cents. Do you think the PL2 with EL34's sounds as good or better than the PL1? I was just wondering since the PL1 was engineered for those tubes. I understand that the PL2 can handle EL34's but was not sure which amp takes best advantage of them. Thanks, Bill |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 672 Registered: Feb-04 | Bill, I haven't heard the PL1 so can't give you a firm answer. The PL2 has some upgraded parts (capacitors and diodes); in theory it should sound better than the PL1 even with EL34 tubes. You might want to give Kevin Deal a call at Upscale Audio. He's very good about taking the time to answer questions about his products. |
|
Bronze Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 15 Registered: Dec-05 | Hey $.02, I found your comments on the CJ gear to hit very close to home as that's just the sound I was after as well. Awhile back I heard the CJ gear (the $4500 pre and 50W/ch power amp) driving a pair of Tannoy TD8s and it was the best sound I had EVER heard. Was blown away. Diana Krall was THERE. But, I was staring at $14K and that was far too rich for me. I, too, feel that I've gotten upwards of 90% of that CJ grooviness at much less cost. ~P |
|
Bronze Member Username: MrbeefyPost Number: 12 Registered: Jan-06 | I'm looking at getting a set of Reference 3a de Cappos; I beleive they would sound wonderful with a tube. I have no experience with Tube Amps, but I certainly like what I've heard. I'm after a warmer sound, as the brightness in my current system is driving me to an end. What sort of amp would you suggest for $2-3G? Even if you just threw some names around that would be great. Thanks |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7160 Registered: May-04 | I have a McIntosh in a Figure Four Leg Lock which is a submission hold. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics