Not Getting the Sound From CDs that I had hoped
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Frank1203 Unregistered guest | Hi, I just had my home theater installed. Rotel RSX-1056 Receiver Rotel RMB-1075 Amp Yamaha DVDC950 Paradigm Reference Speakers 5.1 (studio 100) LG Plasma 42PX4D It's only been a couple days now, but I am not pleased with the 2 channel stereo sound when I play CDs. The TV / Home Theater Surround Sound affects are great, but I also spent the extra money on the Power Amp to enhance audio sound for 2 channels. I find that the CD music sounds very mid-rangey and flat and I really want to hear more of the crisper highs (such as the drummer hitting a ride cymbal or snare drum) and punchier (almost club sounding) bass. I've tried to adjust some of the settings on the Rotel (low and hi settings - bass / treble), but still feel as though I'm not getting what I like. The best way I can describe the sound is flat. It definitely sounded crisper in the showroom before I purchased the equipment. It could be that everything is fine and maybe I just have to get used to it, but I guess I am still a creature of the old 2 channel analog sound from the 1980s that comes through an equalizer on my Bose 601 speakers. Any ideas that would help me to achieve this type of sound would be most appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2629 Registered: Feb-05 | If you don't own a good dedicated cd player that would be the place to start. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7186 Registered: May-04 | There is no doubt that anything played through your current system will sound "flat" when compared to any system with Bose 601's and an EQ. The most obvious answer would be that the new sound is much more "flat" in frequency response than your old system which, from just your basic description, would not have had much chance at that description. Maybe you consider me to be wrong in my assumption, but "Bose" and "flat" and "EQ" and "flat" are not commonly combined. I know this sounds snobbish, but those are the facts. If you do not realize what you had, you will have a difficult time adjusting to what you now own. Bose and EQ's inject a "sound" into a system that probably isn't going to come from what you now own. I think before I can do anything else, assuming you still would like a response, I need to know why you thought the addition of the power amp would enhance two channel listening. Was this done on the recommendation of the shop where you purchased the components? Was this their only suggestion regarding decent two channel sound? Did they know what you owned before making a recommendation? Have you discussed the problem with the shop where you made the purchase? If so, what was their answer? Also, could you tell us if the new system was a direct replacement for the old gear or is the new equipment in a different room or set up? This could explain some of what you say you are not hearing. Have you tried speaker placement in various locations or did the speakers just get put where they looked best? |
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Frank1203 Unregistered guest | Hello Jan, I appreciate your comments and yes - I would like your input and response. I wll attempt to answer your questions.. " I need to know why you thought the addition of the power amp would enhance two channel listening.." Was this done on the recommendation of the shop where you purchased the components?.." To answer your question, I went back and forth on this. What finally swayed me was when I called Rotel. I explained my situation and they said that a separate amp will always sound better and crisper than just a receiver. As a matter of fact, I also wrote into this forum and got the same response frommany of the experst who frequent this site. Those opinions, coupled with my dealer's opinion, were all unanimous that I should purchase a separte amp for better sound. As far as what it their only suggestion... No. many opinions were that I could get away with just a receiver but I didn't feel the Rotel RSX-1056 on its own had enough power and upgrading to the next model (1067) was just as costly as combining the wro pieces I now have. "..Have you discussed the problem with the shop where you made the purchase? If so, what was their answer...?" Yes, I called the shop today where I purchased the Rotel equipment. They're comments were that the they believed that the equipment was functioning as intended and that what I am used to is "equalized" sound that the Rotel in combination with the Paradigm speakers will never provide because they pride themselves on clear undistorted sound and "equalization" is a no-no for the true audiophile. "..Could you tell us if the new system was a direct replacement for the old gear or is the new equipment in a different room or set up?" This new system is a direct replacement for the old gear which was purchased around 1983 and consisted of a Yamaha A1000 Power Amp; Bose 601 Speakers and a BSR Graphic Equalizer. (I ran that system into the ground for 25 years and decided it was time to get myself into the digital age. So you know, this new equipment isset up in the same room that the old equipment was set up but configured differently for surround sound. Have you tried speaker placement in various locations or did the speakers just get put where they looked best? Yes, I did, but the bottom line is the speakers were placed per instructions from Paradigm to achieve the best surround sound / audio experience. The two main speakers (Studio 100) which are used for the 2 channel stereo, are set left and right to project about 10 feet in front of where I listen. They are about 7 feet apart against about a 15 fot wall.In other words, I believe they are situated in a good place and my installer also agreed with placement. I can send you a picture if it would help. So - I think I answered all of your questions. I think what I am experiencing here is not faulty equipment. I think I need to get rid of my "1980's" attitude and move into the digital age. Who knows - maybe I do need an equalizer for this system as well. I welcome all of your thoughts and input. Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7189 Registered: May-04 | I doubt the equipment is at fault, though I don't know what moving into the digital age is going to do for you either. Digital shouldn't have anything to do with the situation. It would appear, however, that you prefer a sound other than "flat". Equalization is a tendentious subject with "audiophiles" and, since I'm not sure how the shop explained it to you, should be applied with more caution than most people can muster. There are occasions though when a well designed and properly set up EQ is exactly what is needed to overcome room problems. It is true most "audiophile" oriented equipment is designed to give a more neutral frequency balance than many listeners are accustomed to hearing. The proposed aim of the design is to provide a more realistic sound quality though what any one person considers realistic is always up for interpretation and the room is the largest influence in what you ultimately hear. Just changing the wall the system is set up on will, in almost every instance, alter the sound quite perceptibly. If the dealer has not been out to your room, they don't really know that you have not located your seating area right in the middle of a standing wave which will kill bass response. I think I would ask the dealer to come out and access the situation first hand. You paid them your money and you should get some service for that. Overall I would say you have two choices to make with your new system. (You don't mention whether anyone else is in the house to agree or disagree with your opinion of the new sound, so I'll assume you are the only person that needs to be satisfied with the end result.) You can accept the sound quality you have, more or less, as the new state of better quality components. I can assure you there are many on this forum that would consider your system to be quite good and would like to trade up to the components you now own. If you are unhappy with the sound you have, however, it is somewhat like heading out to an expensive restaurant and finding out that the $15 bit of foie gras you ordered is actually diseased goose liver. You are the customer and you need to be happy with your purchase. Both you and the dealer share some responsibility in achieving that end. Since you purchased this equipment as a system, you did drop a bit of cash on the dealer and they should be willing to give a better answer than "learn to live with it". I would get a clear answer as to what will happen if, after a few weeks, you are still dissatisfied with the sound. I would give the system that much time to break in and for you to adjust to what you are now hearing. By all rights there now should be much more information to listen to when playing two channel music than your old system could ever muster. You indicate the system was more pleasing in the dealer's showroom. Having been in sales for several decades I can tell you that buyer's remorse might be interfering with what you now hear. It is not uncommon for someone to want something new and then, when they finally have it, wish it to be more like what they already owned. But, to resolve this you should stay in touch with your dealer and try to work out an amiable resolution to the situation. If you simply call back after two months and say you're still dissatisfied, there won't be much incentive or reason for the dealer to take back what is, by all accounts, used equipment. As is, having been in sales for several decades, I can tell you the salesperson already doesn't want to loose whatever commisssion they made on your deal. That shouldn't stand in the way of you being satisfied. At this point I would suggest you make a mild pest of yourself until you are finally content with your purchase. No need to get in a dispute about this, it might resolve itself; but make certain the dealer, not just the salesperson, knows how you feel about their system. Get the owner involved in the resolution process if need be to get what you paid for. It's very likely the owner has more experience with this sort of problem than the salesperson you dealt with. Also the dealer has a more vested interest in making you happy than the salesperson will at this point. You will never get what you want if you don't ask for it but you'll get less than adequate service if you get into a fight over this issue. Keep everything professional and I suspect you will get some assistance. Since you feel the sysetm sounded better in the dealer's showroom, I'd begin by asking the dealer what they did that you could emulate in your room. For, while it may be just buyer's remorse and will take a while for you to settle into the sound, there is every likleyhood the room is affecting what you are hearing. Read a bit here; http://www.goodwinshighend.com/roomdesi.htm - and here; http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/index.html - to get an idea what the room might be doing to your sound and how you might improve what you have. Pay attention to the information on speaker placement. It is an important part of system set up and not just a matter of plopping the speakers into the room. Go to the bottom of this page to find more information on speaker placement; http://www.nsmaudio.com/ Art is correct that a dedicated CD player will usually give you better sound than a DVD player; so you should ask for an audition of a CD unit to answer the question about how it will affect your system. My feeling though is you are interested in something a simple CD player isn't going to provide. From what you say, you are after some boom and sizzle. The equipment you own isn't really going to do that even though there is a thread that has suggested the Paradigm speakers are exactly that; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/185692.html As you can see, the fix was relatively simple and should be something your dealer can do at no cost should this be a part of your problem also; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/188161.html There are times when you are delighted with your purchase and times when you are not. There are times where the solution is rather simple and times when it is not. I can't offer too much more than the above bit of advice since I can't hear what you are actually hearing. You did pay for a good sounding system. It is up to you and the dealer to arrive at what you consider a system that sounds as close to what you prefer as possible keeping in mind you liked what you heard in their showroom. If the dealer got it in their demo room, they should be able to point you in the right direction to achieve at least close to the same results in your room. If they refuse to work with you, which I doubt, then you should be able to return the equipment and move on. If they show good faith in the resolution, I would let them lead you through whatever they feel might get the sound to where you think it should be. Obviously, another major financial burden shouldn't be part of the deal unless you agree to it. If that is their solution, which it might be if the room need some work, you should feel there is an end in sight and it is not the equipment, you nor the dealer that is at fault. Stay in touch with the dealer and make your visits during off peak hours when the dealer can spend some time with you working out the details of the solution. I seriously doubt another BSR equalizer is the answer for your problem. |
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Frank1203 Unregistered guest | Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate your input and advice. You brought up a lot of points regarding the role that the dealer plays in satisfying my concerns. With that said, I need to clarify a few things about how the system was put together. First off, I acted basically as the General Contractor for the Home Theater project. I purchased the equipment from two different dealers and found my own installer to assemble/wire the entire system. I actually never heard the Rotel equipment with the Paradigm Speakers as no dealer in my area handles both product lines. As such, the Rotel equipment was purchased from one dealer and the Paradigm speakers were purchased from a different dealer. I heard the Rotel with both B&W and Klipch speakers and heard the Paradigm speakers played on a Marantz and Yamaha receiver. My decision to purchase the equipment I now have was basically a combination of knowing that if Marantz and Yamaha sounded great with the Paradigm speakers, then I knew that Rotel would sound even better! Also involved in my decision, was posting the same question in this forum and reading the advice from highly knowledgeable people as yourself who all gave me the thumbs up that a Rotel and Paradigm combination was a great choice. I should also let you know that the dealers that I ultimately purchased the equipment from, were not the dealers where I heard the equipment. Why? Price..... After I knew what I wanted, I shopped around. So, the bottom line is that the dealer that I purchased the Rotel equipment from is willing to support me to some degree, but does not appear overly motivated to go over and above the call of duty since they didn't actually "recommend" the entire system compilation. I will continue to pursue the issues and gain the most support I can from them, based on the above. I guess this is what I get for trying to save a few bucks (which I did). I spent all of last night experimenting and learning the capabilities of the Rotel equipment. What I did come to realize is that there are so many settings of how the audio can sound (ie: Dolby PL -- Cinema and Music; 2 Channel, 5 Channel, Neo, etc.) that everytime I listened to the same DVD track carefully in theses modes, the sound coming out was different. I tried to concentrate on two channel, but I was disappointed to realize that the sub-woofer did not work in this mode, yet Rotel says that it offers that capability. I'm wondering if the installer did not wire it for this configuration or maybe I'm just not doing something correctly. Getting back to the various modes -- I will point out that some of these modes actually came a bit closer to the sound I was looking for which was the perfect mix of crisp highs and booming lows to my "Bose 601 / BSR EQ" ears. Surprisingly, the 5 channel sound (where all speakers play at the same time) seemed to be the closest to my liking. What really emulated that sound the closest was the FM tuner. Can you believe that? So where does this all bring us? I'm not really sure, but the one that keeps crossing my mind is if an experienced audiophile such as yourself was to listen to my equipment, I have this feeling that you'd think I was nuts and say that the equipment is wonderful and working perfectly. I guess I still think of music in terms the old 1980's equipment that is equalized. Maybe I need for my ears to mature in this respect or just break down and buy an equalizer to go with the new system. Can you recommend one? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2632 Registered: Feb-05 | I owned Rotel Refernce series speakers with a Rotel AVR and the sound was fabulous. Bottom line you need a good dedicated cd player. I would buy a good cd player and lsiten to it for awhile before looking at an eq. The Rotel RCD1072 goes well with their AVR. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7196 Registered: May-04 | OK, my first impression after reading your "confession" is, you're screwed and you're getting exactly what you paid for. I'm not much in favor of auditioning gear at one dealer and then buying at another to save "a few bucks". Service is what you would have paid the "few bucks" to get. Now, not only do you have a problem no dealer is likly willing to touch, but between the various dealers and the installation person, you are in a situation where everyone is likely to blame everyone else for the problem. If you get someone to offer any in home service I suspect the first thing you'll hear is, "I don't know why somebody would do something like this." If that's what you hear, my last bit of acvice to you is, that's not the person you want "fixing" your problem. I am a snob and I did spend several decades in sales of high end audio. I've spent too mich time trying to help someone like you get out of the mess they made for themself by "saving a few bucks". I have no interest in doing it again. Good luck. |
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Frank1203 Unregistered guest | I read your latest post and I am very sorry if I struck a nerve. I have been reading and posting in this forum for sometime now, and have come to respect your opinions and advice. I think you misconstrued what I said and I feel the need to explain. "Saving a few bucks" or not - I think you missed an important point. The equipment that was interested in purchasing (namely Rotel and Paradigm) were not carried by the same dealers in my area. As such, paying regular price or saving a few bucks - I had to purchase from two dealers anyway. So we are always going to have the finger pointing and unwillingness to take responsibility no matter what. Yes - it was my choice to be the General Contractor and handle matters on my own. If you want to find fault with me or condem me, it would be right there. It's not a money thing. You sound like a very honest and reputable person and truly wanted to satisfy the customer when you were involved in selling high-end equipment. I hate to tell you this, but alot of salesman are not like you. You talk about money.. Many of the salesmen that I dealt with were in it for the quick buck and did not come across overly knowledgeable nor make me feel like I should buy from them. I owe them nothing. In fact, one dealer actually came out to my home to scope the insatllation work and said he wouldn't be able to fish wires from my basement and would need to make three holes between the studs in my wall to wire my plasma. Needless to say, he never heard from me again after that night. Once again - I owe him nothing. Then there's the "used car salesman" at the dealer that had the Rotel equipment. Fast Larry they call him, I think. well, I called Larry and asked him to make an appointment for a demo and when I got to showroom, he forgot and wasn't ready for me. He quickly threw something together but it was not what I wanted. Should that make me feel comfortable when I'm ready to drop $10K on equipment? I think not. By the way - I only dealt with high-end dealers but still wound up with pretty poor service and advice (at least initially). So, I found two reputable places - one that had the Rotel and the other that had the Paradigm. At that pont, I didn't need to really hear anything more because I already knew what I wanted with the help of many people on this forum (maybe even yourself). And yes - go ahead and tie me up and burn me at the stake - but I did save some a good sum of money. Should I give it back? I think not... So, going back to the beginning here, the issue was not money, it was that I chose to to make two different dealers involved. The dealer that I purcahsed the Rotel from was very willing to work with me and provided some good advice, but ultimately he can't relate to the entire issue because he didn't recommend or sell me the Paradigm speakers. I just wanted to clear the air on that. It sounds like you were different than what I mentioned above and for that, I applaud you. I was trying to get into a philosophical dicsussion with you about dealers and salesman. Iwas hjsut hoping someone could provide some good advice and incite into my problem. I called Rotel today and spoke to one of their engineers. He suggested that my Studio 100's need more power pumped into them. He said to remove the Surround Sound Rear speakers from the Amp and plug them into the receiver's amp and then bi-wire the Studio 100's with double amplification from the Power Amp. I think I know what he means... By the way, good luck to you and I thank you again for trying to help me. |
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Bronze Member Username: Sound_advicePost Number: 83 Registered: Sep-04 | KISS, keep it short s...I agree with Art, do yourself a favour and pick up a dedicated cd player. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7204 Registered: May-04 | The man who represents himself has a fool for a client. Or, something to that effect. This is a debate that is not going to be resolved here; and, in your case, what's done is done. However, since you've persented your side, I'll make a rebuttal in hopes somone else might find some knowledge in both my and your opinions. Keep in mind this is not about how to solve your problem; I've already stated that I think it's time to get professional help on site. For that help, you will likely pay some of the money you have saved on your purchase. I might have told you on this forum a separate amplifier was generally of better quality than a receiver. I find it difficult to think, should the question be posed to me, that I wouldn't have suggested just that. However, I seriously doubt I made any suggestions regarding what equipment you should buy since I refrain from assuming I know what anyone else will like or have access to auditioning. I realize there is a good deal of the the buying public who feel Bose 601's through an EQ is the way they want to hear music. Recommending any product to someone whose preferences are not similar to mine is wasting everyone's time. In my opinion, giving advice on what to own on a forum is as ridiculous as taking advice from a forum on such issues. I suspect you probably never read a thread where someone suggested you listen to the equipment you wish to purchase; that means all the equipment connected together whenever possible. It does not mean a piece here and a piece there and then assume you will get the same sound in your home. Whatever. Your main point would appear to be you have no obligation to the salespeople you met while shopping. Yet you do concede you shopped at two reputable dealers. I would suggest your obligation is not to the salesperson but to the dealer who is fronting the cost of providing you the convenience of an audition, service over and above the Big Box guys and whatever knowledge might be required to make the system work properly once it's been purchased. Several of us on this forum have come to recognize the value of the independent brick and mortar audio dealer and the fact that if that sort of dealer is not supported by sales, they will soon disappear. Then the convenience, the service and the knowledge will be gone forever. You will be forced to rely on internet forums where just about anyone can say just about anything. You are not the first person who has made the mistake you have managed. As I said, I dealt with the very same issues on a regular basis while I was selling. The issue becomes even more difficult when the person asking for help has shown no loyalty to those who try to provide the needed assistance. Tigers generally do not change their stripes. Yes, it is now going to be an issue of everyone pointing fingers at the other guy's equipment and work. That should have been a point made to you while you were shopping if the truth had been told to the dealers. Please relaize I am not suggesting you are under any obligation to deal with someone who doesn't sell, or represent well, the products you wish to own. Sleazy or "unmotivated" salespeople are out there; I've worked with my share. There are even some dealers who lack sufficient morals and the basic instinct to want to assist a client. You have no obligation to any of those people. In the end, the only person you have a responsibilty to is yourself. While putting together a system the obligation should be to make yourself as happy as possible. In order to do that successfully, I would repeat the first sentence of this post. While you shouldn't have to deal with a poor salesperson, the dealer who is representing the sort of products you purchased has typically been chosen by the manufacturers based on the overall integrity of the shop. A dealer recognizes that not all salespeople will be the best every day and that not all clients will hit it off with even the best on any given day. If you as a client wish to avoid the pitfalls of installing a new system, there are ways to make almost everyone happy. Here's what I would have done based on having spent several decades in audio sales. Assuming there are two dealers who have equipment you would like to own, I would have suggested to you that you sit down with both owners/managers and make your pitch. If either dealer still wanted to work with you after hearing your offer, they would have made a counter offer that included protections for both parties. Quite possibly it would have involved putting you with a different salesperson. The point being both of you would have reached a conclusion based upon what you wanted and what the dealer's experience suggested was the best course of action. Any dealer who has been in business for any length of time knows well the issues you have discovered. They would have made suggestions that would have avoided or built in protections against these issues. That is the service you pay extra dollars to get from an independent dealer. It would then be up to you to make a decision based on the best information available, not the opinion of some forum geeks, as to how to proceed. If you proceeded in the manner which you presently chose, then my answer to you would be the same as it is now. You're screwed. I may be blowing this out of proportion. You seem relatively happy with the results other than this issue with CD sound quality. If that is the only problem you encounter in putting together and installing a system, then actually you've done rather well. You've been provided, by more forum geeks I might add, a few suggestions on how to remedy this small problem you have. Take from what we've given you and make the best decision possible. If an EQ is what you decide will solve your problem, there are many available. They are only a search engine away. Again I wish you good luck. Beyond this point though, I hope you will understand, I have no interest in doing more than what I've already sugegsted. Here is one last article you might find interesting: http://hometheater.about.com/od/hometheaterbasics/tp/htmistakes.htm?nl=1 |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2636 Registered: Feb-05 | "Several of us on this forum have come to recognize the value of the independent brick and mortar audio dealer and the fact that if that sort of dealer is not supported by sales, they will soon disappear. Then the convenience, the service and the knowledge will be gone forever. You will be forced to rely on internet forums where just about anyone can say just about anything." Well said! |
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Anonymous | A. Don't worry about a dedicated CD player at this point, in spite of the suggestion by Art. It is very doubtful that it will give you what you are looking for. B. Get a test tone disc and SPL meter. Find out what kind of frequency response you are getting at your seating position. Listen in other areas of the room to see if the sound improves or not. C. It took me a year or two to get over heavily equalized sound vrs flat/neutral sound. You might fare better than I did, but you might not. Till then, learn to use the subwoofer and bump up its output a bit. D. Good Luck. |
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Anonymous | Another anonymous tip. Try the analog inputs. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2643 Registered: Feb-05 | One thing I'm sure of, a dvd player won't give you the sound you are looking for. That said a dedicated cd player seems obvious. |
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Anonymous | Art, the "problems" the original poster has described will not be fixed with a CD player. That seems obvious. You might as well go tell a guy who has just been shot that he should drink 8 cups of water a day. |
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Bronze Member Username: Sound_advicePost Number: 85 Registered: Sep-04 | Sounds to me like Anonymous has never heard the difference a dedicated cd player can offer versus a dvd player, you should really try listening first for the differences before making any comments... a dedicated cd player will bring your music back to life. SPL meter is mostly good only for multi channel not stereo and bumping the subwoofer output will acomplish nothing but emphase lower frecencies and make your music sound boomy, Why am I wasting my time...? I guess this is what Jan said about getting advice from forums. |
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Anonymous | "Sounds to me like Anonymous has never heard the difference a dedicated cd player can offer versus a dvd player, you should really try listening first for the differences before making any comments... " I have. Unfortunately I find it very unlikely that this is the original posters problem. " a dedicated cd player will bring your music back to life." Good for it. Nonetheless anomalies that the original poster is presenting sound more like a problem with what he is used to listening or potentially a speaker placement issue. ". SPL meter is mostly good only for multi channel not stereo" Really now. Last I checked an SPL meter was very useful for tuning a stereo as well. It could very well be a problem that the original poster is in a null zone. An SPL meter can tell him this. "bumping the subwoofer output will acomplish nothing but emphase lower frecencies and make your music sound boomy," If you have read any of this thread, you will note the original poster is used to heavily equalized music from a pair of Bose 601's. As a result, the neutrality of his current setup isn't something he is used to. Adjusting his sub output might give him favorable results. Then again, it may not. But it is worth trying. Its his ears we are trying to please, not yours. "Why am I wasting my time...? " I don't know... " I guess this is what Jan said about getting advice from forums." You might also note Jan stated it likely wasn't a problem a CD player would fix. |
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Anonymous | Anonymous #2 here. If the Yamaha c950 is at least as good as the c750 the CD performance should be decent anyway: http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/YamahaDVD-C750DVDChanger1.p hp |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7232 Registered: May-04 | I would agree the first route I would take is to establish what response Frank has in his room. My notes to myself had this as the next suggestion for Frank when he posted how he acquired the system. I kind of lost interest at that point. I figure Frank should get a dealer to do these tests for him since he may not have the equipment or test disc that a dealer should have as a matter of course. Understanding what the mediocre Radio Shack meter is telling you during an on the fly test is not something someone should just try to do. You will end up with distorted information due to the limitations and inaccuracies of the $39 meter along with your inability to interpret the information provided. Additionally, if you don't know what specific frequency the speaker should be reproducing, you are only guessing at where the problems begin. My first suggestion to Frank, after getting a dealer onto his site, is to run a frequency sweep across the lowest octaves with a real time analyzer, if possible. Gather the information at different locations in the room and with the speakers in various locations. If you determine the problem is truly lack of bass content in the room, then you have a place to begin correcting the situation. If you find the room to be relatively flat response, then you can decide whether you can adjust your listening habits to the more accurate sound you now own. It is quite likely Frank has his listening position located in the room null. My personal opinion of the Yamaha DVD player is it does not provide top notch, or even medium notch, CD performance. You are more likely to get better sound from a dedicated CD player from a better audio company. However, Frank seems mostly interested in having the type of frequency balance that the EQ'd Bose gave him. That is not likely to be the result of just buying a CD player. |
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Nonny Unregistered guest |
Uh-huh ... kind of indeed. |
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Anonymous | Mind you I'm not condoning the use of a DVD player as a CD player; but I feel the original poster has other fish to fry before he gets to that point, and I don't believe that dumping a grand on a dedicated CD player is going to give him the desired effect he is looking for at this time.. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2645 Registered: Feb-05 | "You might as well go tell a guy who has just been shot that he should drink 8 cups of water a day." Huh! These anonymous folks remain that way for a reason. "Frank seems mostly interested in having the type of frequency balance that the EQ'd Bose gave him. That is not likely to be the result of just buying a CD player." Agreed, I simply hoped he had erred in his Bose 601 statement and was actually looking for better sound. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7233 Registered: May-04 | I can't assume to speak for Frank but I think that is what he considers better sound. Everyone has to start somewhere and if what Frank had with the Bose is what Frank still decides he prefers, that's his business. So far all we know is that the sound of EQ'd Bose is Frank's reference point for reproduced sound. So what are we proposing he use to compare his system's sound against? It would appear only our concept of better sound. Doesn't that go against the idea of listen and decide what you like? This isn't too unusual and we really have no business telling Frank what he should prefer. In a sense, that is what got him where he is. Judging from his response to Rotel played through Paradigms, he might not like our systems and we wouldn't care for it should he tell us we should change what we own. I'm going to wildly guess that Frank has a set of priorities that do not match ours and they are not priorities that a new CD player is going to change. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2646 Registered: Feb-05 | "I can't assume to speak for Frank but I think that is what he considers better sound. Everyone has to start somewhere and if what Frank had with the Bose is what Frank still decides he prefers, that's his business." I owned Bose speakers and an equalizer so I did feel some sense of where Frank's been. "I'm going to wildly guess that Frank has a set of priorities that do not match ours and they are not priorities that a new CD player is going to change." You may be right but I'm not going to make that assumption. I believe that if Frank listens to his current system for awhile as is and then puts a dedicated cd player into the mix it will make a world of difference. As you said it's his gear and he is the customer and in the end he must be satisfied so offering up more than one way to look at his situation just gives him more choices. I don't believe that can hurt. Good luck Frank and I hope you get the sound you are looking for. |
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Frank1203 Unregistered guest | Thanks to all of you. I know we had some fun with the original post which turned into alot more than I originally for. I have read everyone's recommendations (in addition to talking to the dealer and manufacturers of the equipment) and here is where I think I'm going.. (1) First off, I have contacted my dealer to ask if I could trade in the DVD Changer (Yamaha DCDC950) for a dedicated DVD and dedicated CD player. He had no problem with me doing that (so, Jan - I am glad to see that there are some good reputable dealers out there). He also backed up this soloution by saying CD players have diferent lasers than DVD players.. Now guys the next question - Do I put more money in the CD player or the DVD? He recommended a $500.00 Sony DVD player(xx3100?) and a $200 Yamaha CD 5 disc changer (I want a 5 disc CD changer). So, can we debate this for a while? (2) I have contacted my installer about "bi-amping" the two front Paradigm Studio 100s. The Rotel said that was the way to go because he said those speakers can handle a ton of power which is currently not being pumped into them through the current confuguration. This can easily be done because I am using no amplification provided within the receiver today (I'm using the power amp only), so we would unplug the rear surrounds and power thenm through the receiver and use the two freed up inputs from the amp and combine them to power the Studio 100's in a Bi-amp fashion. He believes I will get more "sizzles and pops" as Jan calls it. Thoughts on that Please? (3) I called Paradigm about this as well. They suggested to give it time becasue it takes 36-48 hours of playing time to loosen up the speakers, etc. I will do that. (4) Finally, I do subscribe to what several of you stated about whether any of these things would actually work 100% to fix the problem with my old ear (Bose 601 / Eq). I believe the answer to that is no. So, short of the above ideas, I think I need to let some time elapse and re-tune my ear to what is actually much better, cleaner and true sound. If over time, I can't seem to adjust, I think we need to go to the EQ route and using that at a very low level just to help with my perceptions as well as room / speaker placement. Thanks to all and I have really learned lot. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2647 Registered: Feb-05 | Good summation Frank. I recommend spending more on a dedicated cd player than a dvd player. Do your research and you can come away with a great dvd player for very little money. Cd players on the hand require a little more research and listening. There is no cheap solution when buying a good quality dedicated cd player. Also single disc players will generally out perform multi disc players. You have an excellent AVR and amp so IMO about the least you could get away with in your system is the Rotel RCD1072. It works very well other Rotel gear and sounds excellent overall. Give it a listen and see what you think. I totally agree with your final analysis. Again, good luck and enjoy the music. |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 539 Registered: Mar-04 | "Now guys the next question - Do I put more money in the CD player or the DVD? He recommended a $500.00 Sony DVD player(xx3100?) and a $200 Yamaha CD 5 disc changer (I want a 5 disc CD changer). So, can we debate this for a while?" Frank, If you think you may want to, at some point in time, explore DVD-A hi-rez music, you'll need to consider a non-Sony product. Sony makes players that will play SACD's but as far as I know they have no interest in the DVD-A format. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3558 Registered: Mar-05 | Frank, You might want to try out the Marantz cc-4300, it's a 5-CD changer: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/176548.html manufacturer refurbs for $145 shipped from accessories4less.com or new for $250 shipped from audioadvisor.com --- have been very, very happy with it so far. As for the DVD player, I have heard a lot of raves about the Oppo: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00078GLJY/103-3152032-3370267?v=glance&n=17228 2 |
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Nonny Unregistered guest | If you're limiting yourself to a 5-disk changer, I honestly don't think you'll do any better than the Yamaha c750/c950 for redbook CD sound quality, plus it does a decent job at DVD-A and SACD, is region-free and converts PAL to NTSC. If you want better redbook CD playback quality it's time to look at single disk CD players --- most of the botique brands including NAD just don't make changers anymore. |
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Nonny Unregistered guest | Hey while I'm at it, what I'd recommend is keeping the Yamaha c950 for DVD duty as well as when you want to load it up with 5 CDs and hit random-play. For serious (i.e sitting in the sweet spot and not being bothered about having to get up and change a CD) listening I'd recommend checking out something like the Cambridge Audio 640C or NAD C542 in the $500 range. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2648 Registered: Feb-05 | The CC4300 though good is no match for the rest of his gear. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3561 Registered: Mar-05 | probably, but will still be a noticeable improvement over what he's using right now. Don't know of any high end 5-CD changers... |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 849 Registered: May-05 | I haven't heard it, but Rotel makes a 5 disc changer - RCC-1055. I don't know how much it costs or how it sounds, but I think it's definately worth looking into. Has anyone heard it? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 171 Registered: Nov-05 | I haven't heard the Rotel, but I do agree with Edster about the Marantz CC4300. I have one and in sound quality it's a notch or two below the NAD C542, and a notch or two above the Denon DVD-2900. For the money and for the fact that a 5 disc changer rarely sounds good, this is one player worth looking into imho. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2657 Registered: Feb-05 | The Rotel is almost certain to be better than the Marantz. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 174 Registered: Nov-05 | That may be subjective Art! But all are worth looking into. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3580 Registered: Mar-05 | ah, but Art does not believe in audio subjectivism, even though he swears that he can hear differences between different cables! : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1164 Registered: Sep-04 | Well, they are different... |
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Anonymous | Art, Which of these would you say would give the best chance for good sound from a CD player in a Home Theater set up. The Onkyo DX-C390, The Denon DCM 380 or the Harman Kardon FL 8385. These are all dedicated CD changers and they are all in my price range. The HK and Denon support HDCD. The Denon is $300 and the other two are $200. I have read good reviews with all of them. I would appreciate your opinion. Thanks in advance... <>< |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2675 Registered: Feb-05 | I honestly don't know as I have not heard any of them. My guess is that the Onkyo would be in last place (based on my experience listening to Onkyo CD players in the past) and the Denon in first. I would bet money to marbles that the Marantz CC4300 out performs all of them and the Rotel outperforms it. |
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