A small step up in speakers
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New member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-06 | by now I think I know all of you, having read hundreds of posts. so this will be an annoying "what speakers should I get with $400?" post with some variations that I hope you will not find too lame. 1st, my current speakers, all are just step above budget level, all bookshelf, more or less: --infinity reference 1, between 15-20 years old, my favorite pair because they do well in the midrange; fairly weak in bass, but preferred over these: --Acoustic REsaerch ar 208 ho. much more capable in bass, but sounds muddy to me, though handles higher watts well, a speaker well-suited to frat parties(I'm 40 and was never in a frat!). definitely my least favorite --wharfdale 7.2 is a compromise between the lack of bass in the infinity and lack of midrange and clarity in the ar's. good enough in my kitchen paired with an ancient 20w/ch mini amp separate made by sanyo in 1980 for sears (don't laugh, it is actually a pretty nice, solid unit) my main amp (for now) is a (again no cat calls) Sony 5.1 from around 96, rated at 50/ch. may replace it sooner or later, but it has a sub-out (with little configuring from what I can tell) that I have not put to use yet, and with enough av jacks etc to remain as center of HT for now I also have a yamaha from 80's cr-240 that still does fine at 20/ch my set up is acoustically challenged--no stands or floor standing units allowed, will set on top of entertainment center (though can be set some distance from the wall) room size is 10x20, but I only use half, so more like 10x10 with an open wall I still have not set up sony for surround, preferring to run A/B pairs so I can play music to dining room while kids watch tv (where A speakers are and surrounds would be sooo, here are my upgrade plans and questions 1st, although I will start using this for more HT, and can appreciate what new system will do for that, I'm a music man, pretty much any genre, though less on bass-demanding hip-hop or metal, and I want to get a better pair (still need to be on smaller side, less than 16" or so) for the front/mains, currently served by infinity-r1 I'm willing to go for a decent sub to round out sound of mains--and I guess that is a first question--how many of you listen to music with(out) a sub ? (and for that matter, with just the mains, no surround support) 2nd, for those who have listened to them, how would you qualify the sound of these (popular to forum discussions)models, like the ascend 170, alegria ling (or rosa or emma)axioms, or paradigms about $400-700--note that I don't want the "which is better?" answer; it seems like wine-tasting might be a better analogy (and one I have not seen used here) that is, you cant say if merlot is better than cab or syrah, each has its own qualities, so with this in mind, the fact that I feel like the midrange clarity is what I'm seeking/missing (and that bass will eventually be supplemented by sub unless the poll on sub use goes differently), that I dont have much room to play with in terms of placement and that I have sony that may get upgraded eventually. in other words, what are the relative strengths and weaknesses, which ones might tolerate poor (well, less than ideal) placement and might emphasize mids over boom, or can play clean bass (forgot to mention that most listening is at moderate to low voume, with only occasional crank)... sorry for the long post, but I did not want a "that's the dumbest question" response out of the you-know-who's on the board (tried to insert the wink icon) many thanks |
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New member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 2 Registered: Jan-06 | follow up: the infinity is sealed, the ar has front port, wharfedale has rear port; don't know if this has any influence on my preferences. I've lived with all of them in a few placements and different rooms and amps with generally similar conclusions mr |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7102 Registered: May-04 | Emma. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/reviews/186180.html |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 974 Registered: Dec-04 | from the Man of Few Words. Of the week. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 975 Registered: Dec-04 | Gladys Kravitz |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7104 Registered: May-04 | Darryn and Tabitha. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 978 Registered: Dec-04 | Larry Tate thanks you. |
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New member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 3 Registered: Jan-06 | well, at least a got one response, but not much more-- any comments on playing music with and without the sub? and for emma, it certainly sounds like a nice speaker--reading between the lines of jan's review--but no comments on which designs might favor the placement issue . I'm curious about the emma's so-called "powered mid-woofer" (alegria web site) which I normally would take to be a separately amped driver--is that the case? and would the speaker compare favorably for day in and out listening to something else in its price range, like say paradigm studio 20'S? (which I know lists higher, but might be had cheaper) or axioms? no comments on relative qualities? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7108 Registered: May-04 | The laguage is awkward but the information should be read as, "Emma uses a very special 6 inch XBL^2 powered mid-woofer." The words "XBL^2 powered" are the operative description in that sentence. There is no amplification provided in Emma. There is no speaker I am aware of that is immune to placement issues nor any speaker I know of which sounds best when it has to be placed in a predetermined position. Inevitably, that position is probably one of the worst you could choose for any speaker. So, no matter what speaker you choose, you will have problems as long as you cannot try various placements to find where the speaker gives its best sound. There is no way for anyone to suggest a speaker based on the question; "which speaker, when compared to all the others, will sound the least crappy when I put it in a lousy location?" I do not understand your concept of; "would the speaker compare favorably for day in and out listening to something else in its price range ... ?" What is day in and out listening? How Emma compares to other speakers is explained in my write up; or so I thought. But those are my impresions of Emma. You might not hear, nor listen for, the same qualities. So how two speakers compare in a direct match up is not something anyone other than you, yourself, can really answer. As to the sub or no sub, Emma can do low bass with ease given the correct set up. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 700 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry about the use of the word "powered". I was referring to the driver's magnet circuit design known as "XBL^2". I've changed the wording to avoid confusion in the future. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 993 Registered: Dec-04 | Good trip, Tim? Thanks for the clarification. Emma's are getting great reviews. |
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New member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 4 Registered: Jan-06 | ah, I see; what a difference a hyphen makes: as in "xbl2-powered" which would indeed mean that the woofer is powered by the xbl^2, the originally intended meaning. long live punctuation. yes, jan, it is true that crappy placement is no good for good or bad speakers. BUT, a rear port can be more finicky than a sealed or front port, no? and this is before we even get to dipoles, etc; and having just re-read your review, I would have to say, no , you don't exactly say "How Emma compares to other speakers is explained in [your] write up; or so [you] thought" in fact you don't really mention other speakers, except the 400 or so others in the category. there is a difference between what you way and what you mean to say. question of audience, you know. I know it is silly to say x blows y away, or z totally sucks (while hundreds adore z....bose not included). on the other hand, when surfer boy wants to warm his speakers up with different gauge wire even after paying a few hundred clams, ...well, you know, there ARE sonic differences that can be qualified, not as better or worse,just different. I am really intrigued by the ling, and even emma designs.. but no offense to your response or mis-understanding of my follow up, some speakers, as you yourself state, will please at first, but can grow tiresome. that is what I meant by day-to-day (note hyphens) listening, versus the wow factor (something Jan does address in his story, I mean review..) furthermore, the question was not whether these models might be able to do without a sub, --I have lived happily without a sub for 25 years--but rather whether the forum participants generally did with or without sub when listening to music... and finally, a big thanks to all for participation. the above comments are in no way meant negatively, just trying to clarify my intentions and throw a little nuance into the discussion |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 701 Registered: Dec-03 | Nuck- Yes, thanks, but it's very tough adjusting to the cold, wet, cloudy northwest after visiting paradise. M Richard- It's not wise for me to mention specific brands and in the case of Emma it's very difficult to make a direct comparison to any. The combination of drivers used are unique to Emma and intentionally so. Some have expressed doubts as to the ability of a 6" driver to produce deep powerful bass and still deliver a satisfying mid-range. I'm sorry for creating doubt but it's absolutely true. Emma is different and I believe well behaved enough to not fatique her owners over the long haul. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 702 Registered: Dec-03 | I WAS here.  |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7116 Registered: May-04 | You don't want to see a picture of where I've been. * " ... there is a difference between what you way and what you mean to say." Really, M R, I'll have you know that what I "way" (sic) has nothing to do with my ability to say something. At the very least my arms can still wrap around front to the keyboard! Anything else is purely corporal and nothing more than a matter of will power. Besides, what was I to do with all that Christmas chocolate? * I cannot imagine anyone suggesting Emma would be tiring. She has her faults but tiring is not one of them. * I'm sorry, but, "when surfer boy wants to warm his speakers up with different gauge wire even after paying a few hundred clams", sounds absolutely licentious. * Yes, port placement has become the "bugaboo" of speaker placement. Though the simple matter that a speaker has a port most often should be of much more concern, in my estimation, than where that port is placed. * I assumed that " ... will set on top of entertainment center (though can be set some distance from the wall) ... " meant that front or rear port placement should not be an issue in your situation. My apologies if that reading is incorrect. * Had we been discussing dipoles? * Unfortunately hyphens do not elucidate the meaning of "day-to-day" any more than "day in and out" does. Though this whole day-to-day in and out thing seems to be a fixation on your part. * As to comparisons: " ... this is accomplished by a few subwoofers ... " " ... you would probably do better to find one of the hundreds of speakers ... " " ... if you put her up against the garden variety players ... " "Take home what impresses you the least." " ... she certainly deserves some slack against the best I've known ... " " ... there are so many trying to be noticed. But here's the thing; most of them are not in Emma's league. Oh, they're pretty and they have their own set of curves. But, mostly I've experienced all that before and come away unsatiated. A slight rise and fall in the, ahem ... "presence region", generously plumped and hoping to distract from the fact they are in your face and there is far too much over acting going on is the most common contrivance they employ. Ah, yes, they audition well in the typical cattle call. With promises of performance they cannot live up to, they offer cotton candy and marzipan. And, like those confections, there is little to be gained by taking in the calories. Emma, on the other hand, is tiramisu." " ... No simple trifle here ... " How much more explicit do you require the comparison to be, sir? And, of course I didn't say "exactly" how Emma compares to all the other speakers in or out of her price range. That would be somewhat impossible; wouldn't it? |
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New member Username: Jeremy123Nyc, Ny Post Number: 6 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan and Tim, Can you offer us some views on how the Emma and Ling could be improved if not only upto some of the standards (as indicated in Jan's review) of his Rogers, but past it. The thinking being that technology, much in vain as many feel it is utilized currently, can work. I suppose Tim the question could also be posed as such: if you were going to make a (pair) speaker at a 5k price point, knowing what components exist, might there be quite a few parts/designs you would employ? My thinking is that if you can manage to make a multi- hundred dollar speaker sound like a few thousand dollar one, then just what could you do with more of an open canvas? Thanks, JL |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 703 Registered: Dec-03 | http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/MyraGallery.htm |
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New member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 5 Registered: Jan-06 | I knew I could get more than a one word response to the post but licentious? ("Lacking moral discipline or s-exual restraint"--American Heritage), hmm but back to the point, when Jan notes that "Where the Ling had been all about nuance, Emma was about making herself understood," is that to imply that Emma has the nuance and some oomph at lower levels? does Emma sacrifice anything for the bass performance? so, sticking with Tim's line of products how about an assessment of a pair of LIngs with a Tom sub, versus a pair of Emmas, sans sub, for say 80/20 music/HT. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 704 Registered: Dec-03 | As I mentioned in another thread, Ling and Emma were created with completely different design goals in mind. There is some slight similarity in that the mid-woofs of both speakers were designed by the same engineer and utilize the same motor design concept. That's about it. Ling has a paper cone, Emma has a poly cone. The poly cone provides the needed weight and stiffness to handle low bass notes. This limits the upper ranges. A paper cone is much lighter enabling it to play much higher. Having a 6" driver with a small planar increases the horizontal dispersion tremendously giving Emma a larger sweet spot and soundstage. The mid-woof in Ling handles all the mids. The mid-woof in Emma hands the upper mids off to the planar. Ling is a "personal" speaker. If your intention is to sit quietly and comfortably listening to your favorite tunes at normal levels in your own, personal space, then Ling is for you. If you're trying to fill a larger room or you want the ability to play very dynamic music at higher volume levels then Emma would be a better choice. If your budget or space limits you then a Ling/Tom combination is quite good. When Ling is relieved of bass duties, greater dynamics and SPL increases are the results. I recently watched Star Wars III and Kingdom of Heaven with this arrangement and it performed very well. Personally, for music, I prefer to either use full-range speaker systems or stereo subs so in that context Emma would be the better choice. If you put Emma in a HT with a sub you'll experience better highs, greater dynamics and higher SPL levels than with Ling. An Emma HT is a wonderful thing. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7122 Registered: May-04 | " ... when Jan notes that "Where the Ling had been all about nuance, Emma was about making herself understood," is that to imply that Emma has the nuance and some oomph at lower levels?" Actually, no, the intention was to imply Emma does not have the fine degree of nuance, nor cohesion, of the almost full range single driver Ling. I have to continue to believe that is a bit of the magic such designs offer that any conventional speaker with multiple drivers will have a hard time competing against. In this regard the Ling is reminiscent of an electrostatic design, which will cost much more than the Ling. The passages where the Ling displayed its ability to follow the slight inflections and minor hesitations, the player being ahead or behind the beat, which inject the performer's intent into the music were more often glossed over by Emma. Now, my intent there is not to dissuade anyone from auditioning Emma by implying she cannot follow the music. Quite to the contrary, Emma follows what is on the source to a surprising degree and her problems with nuance are no worse than any other speaker short of the single driver types. In this regard, Emmas is comparable to more expensive multiple driver designs. Emma has articulation and resolution that exceeds any speaker I've yet spent time with in any price range that to me seems reasonable. Emma can never be accused of allowing mondegreens to creep into your room when the lights are out. If you have long labored under the assumption that the words went like this, "Good-bye yellow brick road There's a dark cloud inside of the house", Emma will sit you down and explain quite clearly that they are this, "So goodbye yellow brick road Where the dogs of society howl." She will also provide the musicians behind the words to play along with all the pace and rhythm required. This is Emma's strong suit; her clarity and ability to lay before you what the artist has rendered onto tape are as good as it gets in my experience. You will hear new pieces of the music with Emma that even the Ling will fluff. While you will understand in Johnny Cash's "Coc@ine Blues" that the sheriff and the judge walk into the room with a certain "attitude", you will miss the slight bit of irony that the song's protagonist sees in the whole affair. Where the Ling will separate out the individual voices in the chorus, Emma will meld them into a well rehearsed unit. Where the Ling easily kept up with the LS3/5a's in this regard, Emma had her own tricks that come from a different design goal. Or, so I would suspect. Anyone listening not much beyond the frequency balance of the Ling, 3/5a and Emma would find a very similar sound. Anyone listening deeper than simple bass and top end would have decisions to make when confronted with the three speakers. The Ling can too often be caught off guard when matters get too complicated. This is where they most obviously fall short of the more expensive Roger's speaker. Emma was never without grace and an understated ability to go louder. That is not to imply, in all likelyhood, that any of the three speakers will satisfy the listener who is addicted to horn loaded designs. Both Emma and the Ling are somewhat inefficient designs. However, Emma would appear more able than the Ling to withstand the power needed to get the volume levels up. Either speaker could fill my room to whatever levels I required using about 100 watts of tubes and 120 watts of solid state. That's not going to be enough for many listeners. What I feel sets Emma furthest apart from the Ling and the BBC design is the latters' ability to accomodate an enveloping feeling of the space that surrounds the recording. With both of these speakers I was taken to the recording venue time after time. Emma will prefer to bring the musicians to you. It is a classic example of "you are there/they are here". As I suggested in my tale of times with Emma, she liked to remain at home and invited the musicians into my room. That is to say she did so with convincing style. The Ling and the 3/5a's took me to wherever the music was recorded. Now, while Emma can convince you the musicians are in your room, she is not so adept at convincing you the entire venue has changed. But this is matter of preference and an issue of what any one person listens for. In a rather obscure way I might say Emma is about how the note begins and the Ling is about how it finishes. Neither speaker, nor the Rogers for that matter, are perfect. To even approach that would require substantial amounts more money. Within their respective price ranges I think both Alegria Audio speakers are great values. If only for the price of the parts alone, you cannot get this quality for this price in any other speaker I am aware of. Both will make you think about what is important to you as a listener and you will have to decide what is the essence of music in your home. Both will constantly surprise you with a new approach to your oldest music. In terms of what is important to me in audio, both speakers make me pay attention to the music while not drawing attention to the fact it is being reproduced by a system of electronics and motors. Where the Ling does "this", Emma does "that". I know which of the two I would rather live with based on my audition of both speakers. But, before making that decision, I would prefer to hear the other designs Tim has in his assemblage. Tim offered me the opportunity to audition Tom and I had no time at that point to take him up on the offer. M R, should you wish a review of the Ling/Tom combination, I would be happy to do so if you will pay the freight. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7123 Registered: May-04 | "Emma has articulation and resolution that exceeds any speaker I've yet spent time with in any price range that to me seems reasonable." I probably should restate that neither Emma nor the Ling are going to satisfy a listner who is hell bound for resolution of "detail". At least not in the sense the term "detail" has come to be understood by too many listeners. A quick look at the frequency response of the Alegria speakers against a typical commercial design should tell you everything you need to know about what you will hear in the way of "detail" through either design. What the Alegria designs will do is have you listening to the music and not to the amount of saliva in a singer's throat. My experience has been one approach sells well in the showroom while the other satisfies well in your home. Your experience could easily be different than mine. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 705 Registered: Dec-03 | No argument here. I understand Jan's affection for single full range driver designs. There is something very special about them. Interestingly, the speaker connected to my 2 channel system right now is Aria which is, essentially, a SFRD system. It is interesting to note, however, when I've auditioned some of the best SFRD deigns, they included subwoofers and super tweeters. That's a 3-way design isn't it? In fairness, the main driver still handles 90% of the music which is completely different than your typical 3-way design. This is what you would get using stereo subs with Ling. In addressing the shortcomings of both designs I came up with Myra. Placing the mid-range driver into a sealed enclosure and asking it to play ONLY the mid-range, it does so with incredible clarity. Placing the two 6" woofers into a separate transmission-line style enclosure and letting them play ONLY the bass allows them to play to full potential with no worries about muddy mids. Obviously the same line of thought applies to the tweeter. Myra is a good example of what it takes to overcome the issues presented by "budget" priced speakers. The combination of parts and the time to construct a speaker like Myra takes it into a much higher price range than either Ling or Emma. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 706 Registered: Dec-03 | Rather, Ling and Emma combined. |
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New member Username: Jeremy123Nyc, Ny Post Number: 7 Registered: Dec-05 | Tim, Very impresive, the Myra. Are there any speakers you feel comfortable comparing asspects- any speakers out there you like?, of the Myra's sound to? I assume a much more expensive ones. Thanks, JL |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 707 Registered: Dec-03 | I won't mention specific brands but there are many speakers from other manufacturers that I like and they vary in concept. Large open baffles, small egg shapes, 5-way fully active, all kinds. Speakers that disappear from the room, don't draw attention to themselves and create a 3-D soundstage that wraps around me are the aspects I enjoy. I don't like speakers that shout or make me cringe when the soprano hits A5. |
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New member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 6 Registered: Jan-06 | I can just hear my budget going higher and higher...one last question, well 2, for Tim: am I right that the timbre matching across your line is mainly between rosas and lings 2. I did not see a number for the sensitivity of Emma; is it on the site somewhere? thanks a bunch, I will probably be giving you a call soon |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 708 Registered: Dec-03 | 1. Yes. I'm working on a center channel for Emma. 2. 86db, but keep in mind the XBL^2 motor maintains this sensitivity level across a broader frequency spectrum than other drivers. Thanks MR. |
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