New CD player? Music is fatiguing (Paradigm + Rotel)
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New member Username: RumattPost Number: 1 Registered: Dec-05 | I've had the following system for a year: Speakers: Paradigm Studio 60's Preamp: Rotel RC-995 (analog stereo) Amp: Rotel RB-1070 (2x130 W) CD Player: Arcam 7SE Unfortunately, I find listening to music fatiguing, giving me a headache after a short amount of time. The system doesn't sound particularly harsh or "bright" to me, but maybe it's just edgy enough to cause fatigue. I'm new to higher-end audio, so I could use some advice. All I can think of so far is swap some of the components and see if it makes a difference. I've read a few reviews say the Arcam 7SE can be "bright" in the wrong system, so I was thinking of picking up a different CD player used (< $400) and see if that makes a difference. I'm not sure whether to go for an older, higher-quality (at the time) player like a Rotel RCD-991, or a newer player (maybe NAD C542). Does anyone have any suggestions on what I might try? Is this the wrong approach altogether? I'm far from an audiophile, so throwing substantial money at the problem shouldn't be necessary. What I already own is probably performing well beyond my ability to appreciate it. I'm thinking that either a) I just need to do a better job matching the components to take the edge off, or b) the problem is not with my system, but with my brain; it's possible that listening to detailed reproductions of my CD's simply give me a head ache.  I did listen to the Studio 60's in an audio shop and they sounded incredible (to me anyway), but that was with $15K worth of electronics and in an ideally setup audio room, so I'm not sure what to conclude. Suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2537 Registered: Feb-05 | Can you borrow or take home for demo another cd player? How is your room setup? Are there a lot of reflective surfaces etc? |
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New member Username: RumattPost Number: 2 Registered: Dec-05 | Thanks for the reply. The room isn't particularly reflective; wall to wall carpeting, but it does have sliding glass doors and a large window on the side wall. It's decent sized, but L-shaped (picture a 23-foot square with a quarter of it removed). There's a chance we'll be moving in 3 to 6 months, so in an ideal world I would wait... but I'm guessing that the new room/house would only be more reflective. Yeah, I'll see if the local dealers will give loaners. I still need to decide what to try out though... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2538 Registered: Feb-05 | My experience with an NAD cd player and Rotel amps has not been good. Talk about fatiguing. The Rotel CD player may well be worth checking out. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3475 Registered: Mar-05 | > My experience with an NAD cd player and Rotel amps has not been good. ??? Art, I thought it was the NAD T763 that you had problems with...what was wrong with the c542? I don't remember ever hearing you complain about it. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3476 Registered: Mar-05 | Matt, When people complain of listening fatigue, these are usually the culprits: 1. Bright room 2. Bright speakers 3. Bright power source Bright CDP is something that I've only read about when people are using cheap DVD players for music. If your room has wall-to-wall carpeting, it probably is not the culprit either, unless the sliding glass door and side window are exactly in the reflection point (sit in your listening positiion and have someone hold a hand mirror ear/tweeter height and slide it along the wall, until you can see the speaker in the mirror) in which case I'd experiment with some cheap heavy curtains to see if it helps at all. So this leaves you with either the speaker or the power source as the culprit...the only way to find out I'm afraid is by trial and error home demoing of several different speakers and receivers/power sources in different combinations. You might want to see if any of your friends/family would allow you to borrow their components for a few hours at a time, or find shops that will let you home demo their gear (esp. their floor models). |
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New member Username: RumattPost Number: 3 Registered: Dec-05 | > different speakers and receivers/power sources Thanks Edster: Forgive me for being a total newb, but does "power source" mean amp? I don't have a receiver (I have a rotel preamp/amp) so I could pretty easily try out a different amp. I have also heard people describe both Paradigm and Rotel as bright/forward, so maybe that's the issue and chasing the CD player is way off. Then again, others say Rotel and Paradigm work well together, so go figure. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2539 Registered: Feb-05 | Edster, remember I have decades of experience before I started posting here. Note: When I started posting here I still had the C542 and not the Rotel gear. I didn't have a problem with the C542. The problem was synergy in my system. At that time I had Magnepan speakers and for some reason the system sounded so bright that it was quickly fatiguing. Eventually I figured it out. Rotel amps are narrow bandwidth so as soon as I swithched to my wide bandwidth Hafler amp everything improved. Before I had the NAD CD player I had a Rotel and it all sounded very good. The problem was that the NAD C542 and the Rotel amp didn't work together well with my Maggies. I craved the detail that the C542 had over my Rotel so I swithched amps. Arcam CD players have a similarly detailed sound as the NAD and some folks find some of their models difficult to listen to over a period of time. I suspect that their may be a synergy problem in your system. I might add that the first thing I did was eliminate the room as the problem. To fully explain what that all means requires more time and energy than I can afford to expend here. If your Studio 60's are v3's then they are not a bright sounding speaker. |
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New member Username: RumattPost Number: 4 Registered: Dec-05 | The Studio 60's are v2, not v3. Well, I'll keep fiddling with the system and/or my room when I have time/energy. If I manage to discover anything, I'll report back here. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3487 Registered: Mar-05 | > Forgive me for being a total newb, but does "power source" mean amp? I don't have a receiver (I have a rotel preamp/amp) so I could pretty easily try out a different amp. yes, "power source" can mean receiver, or amp/pre-amp. Personally I'd try a speaker change first. If there's a Tweeter or Fry's near you, pick up a pair of Polk LSi bookshelves for a home demo (both of these shops allow full refunds, I think---check to make sure) and see if the fatigue problem goes away. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3488 Registered: Mar-05 | > Rotel amps are narrow bandwidth so as soon as I swithched to my wide bandwidth Hafler amp everything improved. Interesting...so aside from the intangible question of system synergy, it was mainly a matter of matching wide vs. narrow bandwidth on the amp and the CDP? Just wondering if there is a way to find certain specs to make this synergy more likely, as opposed to having to do it by trial and error... |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 875 Registered: Dec-04 | I think it's a 'soul' thing Ed. Art's been around the block, and he's flying seat of his pants, or ears, which is exactly as it should be. I figgur. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2544 Registered: Feb-05 | "Interesting...so aside from the intangible question of system synergy, it was mainly a matter of matching wide vs. narrow bandwidth on the amp and the CDP?" No, it's a lot more complex than that. Just stick with the intangible question of system synergy. Matt, I found that the V2's could be fatiguing at times with Rotel gear. I think that it exacerbated with the Arcam CD player. I would try the CD player first, unless you are not invested in keeping the v2's. Nuck, yep that pretty much sums it up. There are ways of predicting some component compatibility but other than the obvious (don't mate Maggies with a 3 watt per channel S.E.T amp) it is often years of experience with trial and error that makes the difference. |
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Daniel34 Unregistered guest | Matt, I can't comment on your other components, but I'm certain CD player you have is not bright. Same as you, I read the reviews which said that it could be "bright in the wrong system" but I find this to be completely false. Could be just my ears, although I don't think that's the case. What I found this CD player does need is good set of interconnects to get the best out of it, but I had it hooked up it with few different amps and speakers and it was not bright at all. If you think this CD player is bright, NAD c542 will hurt your ears for sure ;-), because it's definitely brighter than your CDP. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2547 Registered: Feb-05 | So in reading all of our posts I would conclude that your not suffering listener fatigue. It's just your imagination. No really though Matt just keep trying different pieces and you will find the problem. It really will be trial and error. |
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Silver Member Username: Sun_kingLeeds, West Yorkshire UK Post Number: 306 Registered: Mar-04 | "If you think this CD player is bright, NAD c542 will hurt your ears for sure ;-), because it's definitely brighter than your CDP." ...I disagree Daniel34, the Nad C542 is as warm a cd player as you could hope to happen across. If you think it's bright then I assure you it's something else in the system and not the cdp. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 118 Registered: Nov-05 | I agree with Sun King - the 542 has a very clean, crisp top end, but bright - no way! |
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Bronze Member Username: PlatoWoodbury, NJ Post Number: 32 Registered: Oct-05 | How about trying with a Jolida 100 cd player? It's a Cd player that uses tubes and it's a solid product, not bright for sure. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 950 Registered: Dec-04 | Max, would this be the right time to toss the tube into the mix? Maybe, but an easier and cheaper(important) try might be the Rotel pre. Matt, you can use a receiver, or many, of several types, and see what happens. Have a coupla friends with receivers? Easy and free (except lunch) for a buddy bringing a piece over. Me and Art have bought enough gear to appreciate a loaner with a buddy. The Roel is not bad by any means, but see how something else works with the cdp? $4.98 change |
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New member Username: RumattPost Number: 6 Registered: Dec-05 | Thanks Max, but that cdp is probably out of my price range. Nuck, the folks I know who are into audio are pretty far away. I guess I need to make better friends.  I may be ble to score a rotel CD player, so I'm going to try that first (to go with my rotel pre-amp/amp). If I don't like that either (which I'm hoping isn't the case) then I'll decide whether to try a new amp or speakers next. |
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Bronze Member Username: Patriots_fanPost Number: 13 Registered: Jan-05 | I'd say it's the Rotel stuff that's making yuour system bright. I have never listened to any Paradigm or Arcam stuff that I found to be more bright than Rotel. I have a NADT763 with Paradigm Monitor 7's and I do not find either too bright or fatiguing for my tastes. I have listened to the Rotel-1056 with Paradigm and did find it a little bit brighter than the NAD but not so much that it was unbearable. Sounds liek you'll have to switch out the pieces of the puzzle until you get it the way you like Matt. I'd start with the Rotel stuff. |
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New member Username: FatelvisPost Number: 9 Registered: Feb-06 | Second on the Rotel comment... it isn't the Arcam 7SE. That's a beautiful CD player. I demo'd one years ago but couldn't afford it at the time. I bought an NAD C520 instead. Six or so years later... I walked into the same store and bought a CD73T. I had been sold on Arcam the entire time I owned that C520... and believe me, I was ready. |
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HIPAR Unregistered guest | I have about 125 CDs. Most of them are classical music. I don't listen to them much anymore because they don't sound good. I have an old Magnovox player that I 'beefed up' with bigger power supply filter capacitors and plastic dielectic coupling capacitors. I also placed plastic capactors accross the filter caps and changed the output IC's to wider bandwidth devices. I 'think' these mods helped a bit. I don't use a preamp for CD listening; just a passive volume control. The amplifier is Velleman kit. Class A with toroidal output transformers and four EL-34s per channel. My speakers are by Dynaudio and were built from a kit back in the mid 80's. They are very neutral. The system sounds excellent with good old fashion records and a Sonographe preamp. So I'm one of those hold-outs who contend that CD audio is fatiguing because it just doesn't sound natural. One can argue the merits of CD players and some might sound better than others. But none of them can completely ovecome the limitations of a flawed recording medium. That's my opinion. --- CHAS |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 759 Registered: Dec-03 | Matt A: I have not read the majority of this thread, so if I am out of line here, just ignore this old dog and his ideas. However, when I read your list of components, the one that stood out to me was the Arcam CD player. although I think it is a fine player, Arcam CD players have long been known to have a hard edge to their sound--I know as I auditioned the Arcam 73 and I thought the sound was a bit hard--overly detailed is perhaps a good way of putting it. Not bright, per se, but it has what I think some reviewers have described as having a "digital" sound. It is a type of in your face detail without the spatial sense of a soundstage. It works for some people and not for others. So, the audio fatigue you are experiencing does not surprise me in the least. It just means you are in the camp that it doesn't work for. Now, I do not believe that CDs are inherently flawed and incapable of redemption, but I will conceed that perhaps a better execution when the format was first finalized would leave us all more satisfied with it. Nevertheless, there are some players out there that do a wonderful job and may well solve your problem. I do think the NAD C542 is a good choice--it is very smooth and open. Very hard to do better at its price point. I would also recommend the Cambridge Audio Azur 640C as an appropriate choice. There are other choices, such as the Rega, as your budget increases, that are even better. Since you do not seem to indicate a desire to spend a certain amount, it can be hard to know where to go with this. One other thing has occurred to me: have your speakers checked to make sure that there isn't some bad tweeter sending out some spurious high frequency distortion. I have known this to happen and it can really cause a serious case of audio fatigue. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 760 Registered: Dec-03 | I forgot to include the link for the Azur 640C for $399. Now this is the original, not the version 2 which was recently released. Nevertheless, it is a very worthy player at a great price. I highly recommend it: http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=CAMB640C |
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New member Username: Chris002Post Number: 1 Registered: Aug-06 | Hi, I've got the same problem if you guys are still there. Arcam Alpha 10 amp, 9 CD, paradigm studio 60 v3 and XLO cables... and oh my god is it bright. I can only listen to them for about 2 songs, them my ears are just killing,... on a 12 grand system...nice The problem started when I got the 60's I think,...I was hoping to fix the prolem with cabling, but no ideas yet. Anybody out there with the same problem? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 937 Registered: Dec-03 | Chris: Hard to tell since I can't hear the system myself. But, I will make two observations: First, cabling is not going to make a significant difference. I do believe there is a definite advantage going from unshielded cables supplied with most gear and shielded cables, but beyond that, I just don't hear it. Second, no matter how good each piece of your system is, there is no guaruntee that they will provide the sound you want when combined into a system. Everyone hears these systems a bit different. However, you suggested your problem began when you brought home the Paradigms. Now, I have never heard Paradigms driven by arcam electronics, so I can't opine as to their suitability. But if you believe the overall sound is too bright, then we must address it--no sense in having all that nice equipment and not be listening. I would suggest you find a dealer that has some intresting speakers and try them out at home. Take the Paradigms out of your system and try new speakers to see if the problem is improved. Try a couple of different speakers out that the dealer believes might work well with your amp. If that doesn't improve things, put the Paradigms back into your system and try a different CD player. In short, let's try to isolate where the brightness is coming from. It could be the player, the amp, or the speakers (but I don't believe your speaker cables or interconnects will make that much difference, so I wouldn't worry about them). Once you isolate the source, you know what you need to replace. Good luck! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 124 Registered: May-06 | As I was evolving my system it become bright and fatiguing when I put the Monster HT-5100 Power Line Conditioner / Filter in. I was able to defeat that by swapping out my Nordost Black Nights with Purist Audio Elementa interconnects between the Rega Apollo CD player and at the time my Creek 5350 SE. Also google "Speaker Placement". Properly aligning your speakers, including the verticle tilt, may also provide you some relief. |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 329 Registered: Dec-03 | I think it is your Rotel pre that will give you the most problem with the bright sound. I have an old Rotel RC972 pre and RB970 amp (I think those are the model numbers...I no longer use them) and my dealer recommended Straightwire cables for Rotel (Nordost and Audioquest for Arcam). I would use a Straightwire interconnect between the Rotel pre and amp. I would also get some Straightwire speaker cable. That may tame some of the sizzle. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 125 Registered: May-06 | Gill Custome House 708-598-2400 has Straightwire Cresendo interconnects and 25 feet of matching speaker wire for sale. Their sale ends on 9/02/06. If you call them refer to the speaker wire as "The Snakes". |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 330 Registered: Dec-03 | Crescendo is way too expensive. I was thinking more sonata/encore level interconnects and quartet/stage speaker cables. Look on ebay for some deals. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 128 Registered: May-06 | I should have emphasized "Sale". They "Snakes" were orinally ~$1,900 plus ~$700 for the Interconnects. If whomever, if anyone, bought the system they were connected to and did not want them, they were going to sell the set for $500. |
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