The Lazy Man's Way To Buying A Home Stereo Receiver
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New member Username: KingofcopycomLutz, FL USA Post Number: 5 Registered: Dec-05 | Hi there, I just tossed my 14 year old Denon CD player and bought myself a Music Hall 25.2 CD player. Sonically, it was like going from driving a beat up old Dodge Dart to driving a Ferrari. I had no idea changing the CD player alone (as opposed to upgrading my speakers) would make such a HUGE impact on my sound. So now I'm a convert and I'd like to upgrade my receiver as well. I own a set of old Polk Audio Speakers -- about 15 years old and they still sound GREAT, but I'll probably be moving these into another room later this year and buying some new speakers as well. I listen mostly to good guitar rock and blues and mostly on CD (think Stevie Ray Vaughan powerful but warm treble tone). I DO have a pretty good sized album collection, but I must confess, my days of vinyl listening are few and far between. I'd like to buy a receiver that's going to give me a great broad sound with the kind of music I listen to -- clean treble highs, a warm midrange, and with no bass compromise (if this is possible) -- and sound full and sweet over a new pair of modern day Polks or whatever the modern-day Polk equivalent is (open to suggestions here too). Probably will NOT be hooking this into a home theater system, so if I can allocate the money that would be spent on the home theater electronics in back, to an upgraded sound or power instead, I'm open. Thanks in advance for your time and patience and have a killer New Year. Regards, Craig (http://www.kingofcopy.com) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3466 Registered: Mar-05 | Google/look into the NAD and Outlaw integrated 2-channel amps. |
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Liv4cycling Unregistered guest | Do you have a budget or $$ range in mind? Depending on where your numbers are, keep Arcam in mind as well. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 189 Registered: Apr-04 | The Denon 3805, now on sale due to the release of the 3806 sounds like what you are looking for. It has a phono hookup for that vintage vinyl collection as well. |
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New member Username: KingofcopycomLutz, FL USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Dec-05 | Liv4cycling -- I'd say around 700-800 -- based on what I've seen, this seems about right, no? Which ARCAM were you thinking about -- any specifics? And Riches1 - the folks who I purchased my Music Hall CD player from told me Denon isn't what it used to be. Now we were discussing CD players at the time, but you feel they ARE up to snuff on the receiver side? Thanks, Craig http://www.kingofcopy.com |
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Liv4cycling Unregistered guest | Hey Craig: With that budget, you have many options. I would suggest looking at the used market for a high quality integrated amp. This lets you get more bang for the buck. (Of course, some people don't want to buy used). For example, the ARCAM A80 which is what I had in mind in my original post retails for about $1200, but it can be had used for about $850. Found this one on Audiogon: I hope the link works. (Also, that's not my listing -- I've just included it by way of example). I'm a big fan of ARCAM products and I generally prefer them to NAD and Rotel. My current new toy is the AVR-300. That said, try to demo a few different units/brands and see what your ears prefer. Happy hunting! |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 201 Registered: Jun-05 | Craig, Arcam is a great choice if you're into buying used. Edster's recommendation of the Outlaw (RR2150) is a sound one, same thing with NAD. And you never mention whether you're into Tube amps or not, but I'll throw out the Onix SP3 Tube Integrated (on sale for $699, av123.com) and the PrimaLuna Prologue One Integrated (a little more expensive, but very well-reviewed) if you like the tube sound. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 378 Registered: Feb-05 | Craig: I agree with all here,the Outlaw,Arcam,and Nad are all good choices for two channel gear. I will also add that you may also want to consider Parasound components which are outstanding,particulary their Halo series components. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 191 Registered: Apr-04 | I don't know about all Denon receivers, but I do know about the the 3805. My experience is that is a great product, and these folks agree: 'Home Cinema Choice' - Best Buy, 'What Video' - Best Buy What Home Cinema' -- Best Buy. HiFi Choice, Best Buy, August 2004. CNET - 2004 Editors Choice Sound and Vision - 2004 Reviewers Choice Audioholics.com 2004 Reciever of the Year. I will also higly recommend Denon's 2910 or 3910 DVD players. Read the reviews at audioholics or Secrets of Home Theater. Extensive testing, stellar results. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 384 Registered: Feb-05 | Riches1: I fully concur the 3805 is an excellent receiver but I think this thread is about a two channel amp recommendation, which to me as well as the audio magazine critics the Parasound components are first rate. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 193 Registered: Apr-04 | Eric, you are absolutely right about Parasound! But, the thread originator does refer to "home recievers" (several times, in fact) and that is the part of the equation that I am addressing. Also, the thread originator did ask ME a specific question about Denon and I responded. Don't be such a "Hall Monitor".  Tone is SO important in these discussions! |
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Bronze Member Username: AlphabetCape TownSouth Africa Post Number: 47 Registered: Feb-05 | Riches1, maybe you should have a look at the original post. Maybe I should quote somethings from there: I'd like to buy a receiver..... Probably will NOT be hooking this into a home theater system,... Now the way I understand the question, it is about 2-channel amplification and not HT, so I feel that Eric quite rightly pointed that out to you. Compared to dedicated 2-channel receivers or amplifiers, the Denon 3805 is crap(for that application) |
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Silver Member Username: TwebbzAnn Arbor, Michigan USA Post Number: 333 Registered: Apr-04 | Rotel RX-1052 |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 755 Registered: Dec-03 | I have a friend that bought the Outlaw Audio RR2150. I plan on buying it for my office. It is beautiful, in a retro way and cranks out 100 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 160 watts at 4 ohms. Has both MM and MC phono inputs, bass management (if you ever decide to put in a subwoofer), AM/FM, USB input for playback from streaming audio from computers, headpone jack, remote control, and a front panel mini-jack for MP3 or IPOD's. At $599 and 27 lbs it strikes me as a great bargain. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 197 Registered: Apr-04 | I never ceased to be amazed at the pedantic postings I read on these forums! Again, I point out that the person who originated this thread, asked me about the Denon 3805. The Denon is crap in two channel mode? Well, Abe, there are experts who disagree: ...the most impressive sounding STEREO or analogue multi-channel amplifier yet at this price point. -- Audiofile even in STEREO mode, this receiver was very musical. Sound and Vision Denon's AVR-3805 receiver is a knockout. Its sound quality almost compares with high-end separate preamp/processor and amplifier combinations -- CNET (Editor's Choice Award) quality you get from serious integrateds and high-end pre-powers, which is high praise. Remarkably, the AVR-3805 even sounds good in stereo. A Pure Direct mode shuts down the video and digital stages for better analogue sound. What Hi-Fi. I still think it's a viable alternative for Criag. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 198 Registered: Apr-04 | Abe and Eric: And another thing (or two): A. The main heading for this forum is "Receivers" -NOT amplifiers. B. This thread is titled "The Lazy Man's Way To Buying A Home Stereo Receiver" NOT amplifier! C. Craig states "So now I'm a convert and I'd like to upgrade my receiver as well" NOT an amplifier! D. Craig later states "I'd like to buy a receiver.." NOT an amplifier! E. Then Craig asks ME my opinion, to wit: "And Riches1 - the folks who I purchased my Music Hall CD player from told me Denon isn't what it used to be. Now we were discussing CD players at the time, but you feel they ARE up to snuff on the RECEIVER side? F. Last I checked, Parasound doesn't make receivers - (they make amps and tuners and such, otherwise referred to as separates)... But if you guys want to recommend an amplifier, or separates, or even a two channel receiver for Craig, that's fine with me. And I enjoyed reading your recommendations. In fact, Craig, I also think that the Creek Classic 5350 SE and the Outlaw 970/7075 combo make great alternatives to the Denon at the same price point. However, Craig also states the he PROBABLY will not go to home theater. If he isn't entirely certain, the Denon 3805 at least gives a very good bridge to home theater should he decide that he wants to go that way, while doing an excellent job of meeting his current needs. |
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Anonymous | Good response Riches1 |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 980 Registered: Dec-04 | Riches, Sound and vision says'even in Stereo Mode...dude you have a problem if your references are 'even in stereo mode'. Only high quality units are designed to, and deliver stereo at the entry level price. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 981 Registered: Dec-04 | just ask Eddie |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 199 Registered: Apr-04 | Nuck, Dude, let me explain it for you. Here is what the one phrase that you cherry picked to TRY to play "gotcha" means: "Even in Stereo Mode" means that multi channel receivers are expected to sound in good in multi-channel (digital implied) but this receiver actually sounds good in stereo AS WELL, (analogue implied), which is unusual for a multichannel receiver! The critics say that this reciever sounds like a good integrated amp. (At the same price point -implied). As I happen to listen to CD audio in stereo most of the time, I tend to agree that this reciever sounds great, even in stereo. And just like Abe and Eric, you really should try to read my whole post. I don't know maybe it's not diluted down to sound bite level for your obvious short attention span. You apparently missed the references to where the 3805 is favorably compared to separates and integrated amps, or maybe that just doesn't fit your agenda (which from what I read from some of your other posts, has little to do with advancing knowledge and sharing ideas and more to do with nitpicking and sharp shooting people that you don't agree with - like ed.) Who knows, maybe Ed is right! I don't know and neither do you. (That's adamant agnosticism applied to electronics.) But Zealotry in these forums is ridiculous. "Only amps give quality two channel amplification, blah, blah, blah, and receivers can not and blah, blah, blah." I disagree with all this elititst separates nonsense - and that doesn't necessarily make me wrong - or right. I know its heresy to some of you, but embarace the new paradigm: Some multi-channel receivers are equivalent to seperates in stereo amplification (at the same price point)! Sacrilege! Off with his HDCD! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2596 Registered: Feb-05 | "Some multi-channel receivers are equivalent to seperates in stereo amplification (at the same price point)!" Get real! Is that sound bite enough. If you are serious, I'm sorry for you. If you're not, ha ha. Did I laugh enough. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 200 Registered: Apr-04 | Well, Art, you too, are entitled to your opinion. But I suggest you do some reading, a little research, and a little listening, and try to be a little more open minded. (Your laughter above sounds a little nervous, and a little uncertain to me.) You can start by reading the quotes from CNET, What Hi-Fi, etc comparing the Denon 3805 to separates. Hey, I'm just quoting the professional reviews, just providing a little evidence to back up my comments. Hey there's a novel idea for this thread; back up your arguments with some evidence that supports your opinion! Here is a quote from a review on the Denon 5803: The most common complaint of most audiophiles regarding receivers is the fidelity, or lack thereof, of reproducing convincing and accurate two channel audio. Some complain that receivers usually sound too bright or too limited in soundstage or dynamics when compared to dedicated and usually more costly separates solutions. To them I ask, have you heard the Denon AVR-5803? Here is the link for the full review: http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR5803p2.html I know that it is bitter pill to swallow when you have shelled out as much as you have on separates, but I stand by my argument. So save your sympathy for someone who needs it. BTW, Art -That's a killer system that you have. Paradigm Studios 40's are on my upgrade list. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 400 Registered: Feb-05 | Riches1: You need to lighten up. The only point of my post was to keep the thread going in the right direction which at the time I believed was about two channel gear. If my comment offended you enough to state"Don't be such a hall monitor" then I apoligize.I agree that the 3805 and the 5803 are excellent receivers but they are not in the same league as a great 2 channel or multichannel amp like the Parasound. To me a couple grand for a receiver is no big deal but when you get into $4K-$5 for a receiver this just doesn't make sense to shell out this kind of cash when excellent seperates like the Parasound which are even greater in performance, particulary with respect to two channel performance, can be had. The 5803 for a surround receiver is top shelf, but I would rather have the Parasound Halo, or a Krell or Mac than 5 of them, because I know that their performance will outbest the Denon. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 986 Registered: Dec-04 | Riches, I couldn't swallow the whole tree, so I cherry picked one line. One wrong line. I run a receiver as well, and stereo is preferable for me. If my H/K is junky, so be it.The Denon may be a huge improvement, but I amp my receiver and have sufficient power. So, at which price point will you compare the Denon? Expensive receiver, or inexpensive seperates? Is a radio that much of a benefit? I need to digest the review of the Denon a bit before I spit out pits, But I stand on my call of a receiver NOT delivering as well as good seperates. I believe 2 power supplies, with one being a twice wound torroidal and being in individual environments will work better than a shared box. I will stand on that alone. BTW, Ed is right. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2597 Registered: Feb-05 | "But I suggest you do some reading, a little research, and a little listening, and try to be a little more open minded. (Your laughter above sounds a little nervous, and a little uncertain to me.)" I suggest you learn which hifi rags and/or publications to trust (if any). I read Stereophile, The Absolute Sound and The Perfect Vision every month and I look at CNET periodically (like Sound and Vision when I want a run down on features but not to take them seriously relative to sound). I have owned AVR's by Onkyo, Rotel, Denon, Marantz, NAD, and Yamaha (I currently own Marantz and Yamaha). Here in the Willamette I have access to any brand of audio gear that I like and I listen to various brands weekly. Yesterday I was listening to the Vandersteen Model 5a with a Rogue Audio Pre amp Rotel power amp, I also listened to Magnepan 3.6's with Musical Fidelity's top separates. I not only read about this gear but I go out into the field and listen to it .... frequently. AVR's have definitely improved significantly but they have a ways to go before they reach the sound of quality seperates. Thank you Riches relative to your comment on my system. I think you will really enjoy the Studio 40's when you get them. Have a great day guys. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 201 Registered: Apr-04 | Art, nuck, and Eric: All valid points. BTW, I do respect your guys opinions. I looked at your systems, went to Nuck's website (Nuck is out there people, this guy's system is killer, and he builds birdhouse speakers for fun, everyone should visit his webpage!)and I do note your extensive audio background. Art, we only differ on a small point: You say "AVR's have definitely improved significantly but they have a ways to go before they reach the sound of quality seperates." I just happen to think that SOME Avr's have closed the gap more than you do. To quote Dennis Miller, who knows, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong. Nuck, you said " I believe 2 power supplies, with one being a twice wound torroidal and being in individual environments will work better than a shared box." Well, the Denon 3805 has 4 power supplies, all with high quality caps and coils, and makes use of rigidly isolated circuits for individual functions in the audio chain. Now, the 3805 doesn't have a torroidal amp, but the 4806 and the 5803 Denons, as well as the 8600 Marantz do have torroidal amps. Do they sound as good as separates? Many professional reviewers think they do. But really, that question can only be answered individually. And Eric, I am usually easy going, until feel like I am being provoked. But you're right, I should lighten up. Hoepfully, I have done so with this post. It is an interesting debate, fellows. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2602 Registered: Feb-05 | FYI - I just bought a digital camera and will post a pic of my system shortly. Before making any comments on my 1970's carpet (lol) keep in mind that it is getting replaced this month... Nuck, you build birdhouse speakers and I'm an avid birdwatcher.....where was I going with that? LOL !!! BTW Riches my old NAD AVR had a massive toroidal transformer, hence the characteristic hum/hiss issue. You can't put a big toroid in the same box as your pre/pro without asking for trouble. The Marantz and Denons filter out the noise made by the toroid but in the process put yet another veil between you and the music. It's a price some are willing to pay for the convenience of the flagship AVR's. I recently compared 2 great AVR's the Yamaha RX-V2600 and the Denon 3806 and they are both remarkable at presenting the whole movie experience in an exciting and involving way. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 988 Registered: Dec-04 | Riches, the site is a little odd, like meself, thanks for visiting. And although I do tend to be sarcastic(oh, really ya think?), thats just me. Being rude, however is a poor trait that I have been working on, and your posts have not even bordered on rude, just involved. Art, a pic of 'that 70's shag' would be a blast.Orange, perhaps? LOL. The Denon review was quite favorable indeed, and although I have found Denon AVR's a bit underpowered in the past, that may be changing here. I also had questions about the Denon low impedance capabilities, but that may also be addressed now. Although, I would like to try my low impedance speakers on somebodys elses shiny new Denon first;) Thanks for the compliments Riches, as you can see, my combination of pieces would not fit everyone, or most people in fact. My hearing is going downhill, and I need extended highs. However well meant, you assessment of my knowlege far surpasses the grim reality of my thin capabilities. I do try to keep things light from time to time, though. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 202 Registered: Apr-04 | Nice post, Nuck. You and I could get along. I tend to come across as somewhat of a smartass, sometimes, despite my best intentions. My daughter says I'm not a smartass, I'm THE smartass. It's a heavy burden. Hey Eric, I wasn't too offended - didn't you see the smiley face next to "hall monitor". I was just yankin your chain a little. Art, I don't know what kind of filter that you are referring to. But please feel free to expound. My understanding is that Denon avoids the hum/noise from the toriodal by rigid isolation/shielding of the audio chain from the EMI emitted by the transformer. Finally, here is a quote from someone's opinion that I regard very highly. I know that Gene "seeks the truth" and is a romantic slayer of unfounded audio myths: Spending the past three months with the Denon AVR-5803 proved to be an eye opening experience for me. I learned to overcome the typical stereotype inbred into us audiophiles that receivers cannot be the epitome of high-end audio. I learned that a truly exceptionally engineered receiver such as the AVR-5803 can, in fact, surpass the performance and flexibility of many more costly separates and nearly all currently shipping separates and receivers in this price class. In my opinion the already two year old Denon flagship receiver still sets a benchmark to which receivers and separates solutions must be judged. Some may argue that $4300 is an awful lot of money to invest in a receiver, and that may be true. However, considering that no single receiver or separates solution at this asking price (and even a few thousand dollars more) offers this level of refinement, performance, and set-up flexibility, the AVR-5803 comes as an uncommon bargain. In fact, as a further personal endorsement to my satisfaction with this receiver, I am strongly considering the option of upgrading my reference system to incorporate the AVR-5803, where it may serve as the premier preamp/processor to replace my dated Aragon Soundstage, and the power amp for the surround channels. ---Gene DellaSala - President and Founder of Audioholics; HAA Certified; Electrical Engineer (In addition to his affinity of engineering, Gene is a music lover who enjoys playing the keyboard, and drums with fusion jazz and progressive rock influences being his forte. His ultimate goal is to achieve audible reproduction as close to un-amplified music as possible realizing the electronics, and most certainly the cables play a much smaller role than the loudspeaker-room interface.) |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 401 Registered: Feb-05 | Riches1: Okay no harm done. The Parasound seperates are available for about the same cost as the Denon flagship. I'm afraid I fall into the conventional camp that supports the notion of the superiority of seperates over integrated components, sorry no apology there. I will side with you there as I visit the Audioholics site frequently, Mr. DellaSalla is spot on nearly all subjects and I find that I agree with most of what he has to say. About the only thing I've ever disagreed with him/the site about is speaker settings on a receiver. Audioholics maintains that all speakers should be set to "small", even if they are large full range speakers. I wholeheatedly disagree with this. If you have floorstanders, especially with large woofers, you are selling your system short by the small setting as this will limit frequency response somewhat which in turn will limit dynamics. BTW, I am not an EE but I do have an electronics background. I have an associates degree in industrial electronics technology. I am trained in robotics and industrial electricity.I'm pretty sure I've stripped more wire in the past year than most on this forum will strip in their lifetime. I do not buy into the cable lie for one second. Copper is a wonderful substance but it is not magical. I also dabble in the electric guitar. |
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New member Username: KingofcopycomLutz, FL USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Dec-05 | Holy Crapola, I can't believe what I started! Make love, not war fellas. Anyway, after some intensive research and a 13-minute consult with my crystal ball, I've decided to buy the Outlaw RR2150. They're out of stock for about a month or so, but I'll have one of those babies in my room as soon as they're back in. Thanks and have a GREAT 2006! Craig http://www.kingofcopy.com |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 4738 Registered: Dec-03 | Very nice, Craig! Hope you get it soon! Enjoy listening |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 207 Registered: Apr-04 | Craig; No war, just rousing, sometimes heated debate. We are all still friends here. BTW - Good choice on the Outlaw. Let us know about the experience. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 996 Registered: Dec-04 | I do not know of anybody who has been disappointed with Outlaw. I called them up a while back and got a great guy on the phone who even had me call back on their 800 number. When the occasion arises, I will shop there next. Let us know, Craig! |
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buddy711 Unregistered guest | Just found this forum. Have looked at 3805/3806 and rxv1600. Replacing 15 yr old stuff and want to add 1 32" lcd after getting music part done. I'm confused after visiting several places here in south florida. Have an extensive music collection, cd's and many older 8 track stereo tapes and records(these are being converted or replaced with cd's available. So--with only a 12-16 room what do I do for speakers? Looked at polk and the kef theater set, but read that rvx1600 does not allow a sub??? Have space for front floor to start and could add when I get wall unit for the 32" lcd. Help??? Am clueless at this point how to match up speaker system with the rest. Denon 1920 seems ok for dvd/cd and considering rotel 1072 for cd's only. Please put this on another thread if it does not belong here. |
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