NAD - To be or not to be?

My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 222 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:17 GMT That is the question! What is happening with one of the top names in audio? Firstly, this is only an opinion from someone who has been reading these boards since Nov 03 and has witnessed what has to be described an extraordinary amount of criticism regarding NAD receivers. Reports of problems here seem to be too consistant to ignore! I believed, as had many of you, that these many reported problems were not due to poor QC on NAD's part, but more so to the fact that NAD owners are of such a passionate audiophile group they might be more inclined to seek out solutions, ideas, and comparisons on a board such as this, thus wrongly indicating that NAD A/V components might be receiving more detrimental publicity than what might be deserved. Personally, I now think that view holds much less weight. Now, even as a very content Marantz owner, I believe that the Nad receivers offer about the best sound for the money on the market. I auditioned them and was instantly taken in, but I shied away because of (a) comments on this board (b) the conflicting comments from 2 salespeople from the same NAD dealership and (c) another A/V dealer who sells NAD told me not to buy from their receiver line even though he could have easily sold me one (I asked why and he said to just trust him on it - they have problems). Reports from NAD buyers herein range from 2,3,4 and even 5 replacements in order to get a unit that perfoms correctly. There are tales of NAD dealers dropping the receiver lines entirely. Stories about dissatifaction from dealer back up and even from unsatisfactory back up from NAD themselves. But, to be fair, there are many more reports telling of great dealer back up and NAD's excellent customer service and I believe sometimes this depends on how far the the customer will go to exert his/her rights. When problems keep appearing with later models, one really has to ask why. Is it a lack of control over the Chinese contract manufactures? Is it simply cost cutting? Are they not built to withstand transport handling? Is it due to incompetent testing? Sure there are reported issues with other brands, but nowhere near the scale of the problems that seem to exist with the NAD receiver lines. Many owners report they have no problems at all - and understandably, they rave about them - which proves NAD can do the job and do it very well. I think many consumers or would-be consumers, would be interested in your opinion: Is purchasing a NAD receiver really worth the risk of putting up with the hassles that many have reported on this forum? Who thinks that the many problems reported on this forum are not indicative of NAD's quality? NAD has had a great reputation over the years - will it be able to maintain it?
jeff obregon Bronze Member Username: Billdashill Post Number: 76 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:44 GMT I heard their top Silver line has problems too. So I'm incline to think it's a little bit of each. NAD top management is ultimately responsible so I would start there. I Bought a T532 last July and the picture is sub-par. There is a trace curved line that shows up on the left side of the screen whenever the disc shows dark scenes. Another problem to add to the loooong list.
patron New member Username: Patron Post Number: 9 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:16 GMT I own a NAD T773 and I have had no problems at all so far. My unit is great and it does have extended warranty. If you go to any forum you are always going to find a % of people complaining about just anything, cost of life, taxes,customer service, Ferrari's quality,etc. that's why we are human beings and tha is also the idea of a forum. Just a simple question, Do you have a exact % of people complaining about NAD quality? What % do those people represent NAD customers? No answers needed. A very happy NAD Customer.
Sem Bronze Member Username: Sem Post Number: 59 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:19 GMT My Rantz, Interesting topic, one that I think may have been fueled, in part, by my recent T742 woes, as well as experiences by countless others. I wonder if part of this "phenomenon" can be attributed to, or at least partly fueled by some of the more outspoken NAD proponents such as Hawk or John A. I do not mean this in a negative way whatsoever believe me. I for one have a NAD A/V receiver as an indirect result of their recommendations both to me and to others that either hang here or just pass through. I wonder how many others do as well. Through their recommendations I wanted to, (I just HAD to), demo the NAD/PSB combination, and once I did I fell in love with its warm, full sound. I did listen to demos of a few other combos in my limited price range but they just didn't do it for me like the NAD did. However, we may or may not have a true representative sampling rate to draw accurate conclusions. Though I certainly can't discount the idea that there may be some troubles in the NAD QC area, especially when, as you mentioned, some have gone through multiple units before finding one that was trouble-free. Still others gave up trying and switched brands completely. My trouble so far has been more annoying than anything else. I'm grateful for both a local dealer who let me bring equipment in to help isolate a failing unit, and for a NAD dealer, hundreds of miles away, who is willing to send me a new receiver to rectify my situation. So far for me, though there have been troubles, the dealers have stepped up and helped to make the best of the situation. Assuming I eventually reach a happy ending, if and when I'm ready to upgrade, I would still feel good about doing so within the NAD line, (after careful research of course).
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 223 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:22 GMT Jeff I agree about 'Top Management' responsiblity! Patron "No amswers needed" But I will respond. No, neither I or anyone knows those percentages. It would great if we did - from all manufacturers - but that will never happen. Please believe me when I say I'm not bashing NAD - in fact I'm a non-owner fan - but, I'm just interested in opinions on what I see as an inordinate amount of negative posts. The problems can't be in the design if many customers have perfectly working units and many who do not. If NAD took time to occassionaly read comments on this board, opinions should be of high interest to them for the sake of their well earned respect in audio components. And this, I believe, many would like to see continued.
JW Unregistered guest	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:30 GMT Et tu NAD, you have Quality Control problems. MR, you have spearheaded a post often considered by this writer - and told it like it is. Kudos to you. This board can be qualified as follows: 1)"All manufacturers have faulty units". Singularly, this board screams a myriad of problems. What does it take to acknowledge the obvious NAD headaches? Ye of little faith, check out the reviews on Audioreview.com or any other audio board for further conviction on NAD's incompetence. True, no industry reports are available, by any relative logic it is apparent that NAD exceeds the limits of acceptable standards. 2) "It must be your set-up". We are into the second decade of ubiquitous home PC ownership; most have upgraded everything from RAM to drives plus software literacy. As we are not congenital electronic dysfunctionals, setting up a home theatre rig without Hiss/Hum is not usually a monumental grasp. It's not your imagination, the problem is NAD not the operator. 3)"My dealer said NAD has no more problems than any other receiver." When shopping for my NAD receiver, a respected and prominent dealer responded with email, "stay away from the T752 and T742, too many problems." 3)"Replacements, replacements for replacements, hiss, hum, channel drop-outs, DOA's, display malfunctions." Self-condemning, no comment. 4)"NAD has exhibited excellent service support". Hallelujah, in light of #1,#2,#3. So, what do I own, NAD, of course. Really, had no choice because the sound framework is so superior for the money. However, the smug attitude that my NAD is running OK is a disservice to newbies or those on a stretched budget (remember, we were all there at one time) that can ill afford an economic loss or lack of an objective opinion on NAD's quality. My sense, be wary of NAD's quality and consider the many other options if QC/QA is an issue. "NAD's are the best of times and the worst of times".
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 224 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:35 GMT Sem Great. That's good praise for the product and dealer in light of having some problem. And let's face it - recommendations do come from the heart.
Sean R. Roberts Bronze Member Username: Srkstan Kazakhstan Post Number: 32 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:54 GMT I am in a serious quandry on this particular issue! I have some B&W DM610i speakers rated at 4 ohms that I want to drive in 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1. Unfortunately, NAD is the only affordable HT receiver that seems capable of doing this. I work at a US embassy abroad and can get packages forwarded to me, but it is more difficult to return packages. Is it worth the risk to buy the T762 from an authorized dealer? Are there any other HT receiver options that can definitely drive 4 ohm speakers?!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 225 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 04:31 GMT Sean, Is it worth the risk? Again - that is the question! If only we knew the percentages. Your geographical position makes any unit a little risky as far as warranty hassles go. There are other receivers that will drive 4ohm speakers - some Yamaha and HK models for starters but NAD may be best suited to your speakers in timbre matching and is renowned for 4ohm loads. BTW be sure of whatever brand you order is compatable with the voltage in your area. The T762/763's are 6.1 capable I think. I'd like to recommend the NAD on the sound quality for money basis and I'd lean more to the 763 as less risky but where others will say go for it, I'm a little reluctant because of the topic.
landroval Bronze Member Username: Landroval Post Number: 86 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:27 GMT I have always supported manufacturers that in addition to great products offer good customer care and other services like informative homepages and preferbly not too many stories of faulty and disfuctioning units. It's easy to say that NAD isn't doing so well on my list. I'm soon going to buy a new receiver, and I was going for the T743, but I'm not so sure anymore. It's not just about me and my receiver, maybe I'll get one that works fine, but I'd also be supporting a manufacturer that cant make high grade products for so many others. I dont think I can do that, even if I'll lose some soundquality.
Sean R. Roberts Bronze Member Username: Srkstan Kazakhstan Post Number: 34 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 09:29 GMT It is looking more and more as if the only 2 HT receivers I can find that claim to support 4 ohm speakers are the NAD (T752 and up) and the Onkyo NR900. The best deal I can find on the Onkyo is $200 more than the NAD T762, but it has more options. Is the sound as good on the Onkyo? I am assuming that there are fewer problems than with the NADs.
Johnny Silver Member Username: Johnny Missouri Post Number: 298 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 14:23 GMT To be or not to be? That is the question. Unfortunately, in this case, I think it is a question that cannot be answered. Being the satisfied NAD owner that I am, I truly wish that the issue would be settled once and for all. I don't really think that is possible though. The reason that this question cannot and will not ever be answered is that on this forum, there are two very distinct groups. There is one group (of which I am obviously a member) that has had absolutely no problems with their NAD units and do not hesitate to recommend them often. Then there is the group of disgruntled NAD users who have had a hell of a time getting an NAD unit that works for them and come to this forum seeking advice. Both of these groups feel very passionately about their "cause" and are not likely to be swayed easily to "the other side". Then there are those who are "in the middle" and can go either way depending on the situation. I have made my views known many times on this subject. They have not changed, and I doubt that they will change unless I for whatever reason begin having problems with my unit. Why would I not recommend NAD if I have had no problems with them? To help make my point, look at the arguments presented by JW earlier in this thread. For whatever reason, JW is in the "second group", the disgruntled group. Your arguments are presented very well, but I can make just as strong of an argument on the completely other end of the spectrum. Who is right? Who is wrong? It is impossible to know. 1. "All manufacturers have faulty units"-You say "what does it take to admit that there are headaches with NAD". For the record, I will admit that there are some who have had very definite headaches with NAD. Is that to say that there are more headaches with NAD than with other brands? By looking at this forum, it may be easy to say yes to that question, but in all fairness and logic, it is impossible to claim that. I don't know much about statistics, but I do know that it is impossible to claim that this board is in any way a "representative sampling" of the entire NAD population. It would be like making claims about the overall political views of the US by reading only a Republican discussion forum. As far as the "all manufacturers have faulty units" claim, it has been for just this occasion that I have collected a pretty substantial list of threads started by owners who have had problems with other brands. In all fairness, I will admit that NAD seems to have a bigger share of the problem reports. But once again, it is IMPOSSIBLE to claim that this represents the brand as a whole. While it may be easy to do so, it just isn't possible and would be irresponsible to do so. 2. "It must be your setup"-"It is the NAD, not the operator". Once again, how can you make a claim such as this? Maybe this is true SOME of the times, but to make a blanket claim like this is very shortsighted in my opinion. The fact is this. There have been numerous people who have been able to solve their problems by making corrections in their setup. What I hear most people say is that "It MAY be your setup" and are presenting this as a POSSIBLE remedy that can easily be tried. I know I would be glad to have someone recommend that I try my setup before I waste time and money getting a replacement unit. Better to find out that it is a setup problem before rather than after. 3. "My dealer said NAD has no more problems than any other receiver". You say you had a very "prominent and respected" dealer that told you to stay away from NAD. Well, I have had FOUR "prominent and respected" dealers tell me the exact opposite. So, which prominent and respected dealer do we believe? 4. "Replacements, replacements for replacements, hiss, hum, channel drop-outs, DOA's, display malfunctions". See # 1 and 2. So what is my point? Well, my point is the one that I have been trying to make all along. If anything, this board is providing a very good service in that it is making people aware of the fact that there are POSSIBLE!!! problems with SOME NAD receivers. With this information, each individual can make a decision as to whether this possibility is reason enough to steer away from NAD. If one has all of this information and is in the right situation to get and NAD (i.e. speaker matching and budget wise), I would not hesitate getting one in the slightest. Buy from a reputable and authorized dealer, and you should feel good about your decision. However, if you read all of these problem reports and can not in good conscience purchase an NAD, then don't get one. It is that simple. Coming to a consensus on this topic is about as likely as the nation coming to a consensus on abortion or g*y marriage. Just get as much information as possible and go from there.
Smitty Bronze Member Username: Smitty Canada Post Number: 57 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 15:27 GMT Ahh...the endless debate. My personaly opinion is that the NAD T742 (which I own) delivers superior sound within it's price range (I'm comparing it to Denon1804, HK AVR230, Marantz SR5400 & Onkyo TX601 which are equivalently priced where I live). On the feature/usability side, it's weak. The T743 improves alot in this area but still lacks 6.1 support which the other brands in this price range each have. I DO believe the NAD is more susceptible to noise/hum/hiss from external sources than other AV receivers. I believe this because of my own experience with my T742 and anectdotal evidence from this and other online forums. Just like I believe H/Ks seem to be more prone to overheating/shutdown issues from reading various forums and reviews. I think it's worth taking a chance with NAD because the sound is so much better and ultimately that's the whole purpose of the receiver in the first place. I would make sure you understand the exchange/return policy up front in case you get a lemon and eventually want to get your money back or exchange it for something else.
Jonathan Bronze Member Username: Jonmoon Post Number: 47 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 15:45 GMT I agree with Smitty. It is an endless debate. If you want to listen to the NAD and you love the sound, the question is do you trust the dealer. If you do trust the dealer, go for it and get the NAD. Otherwise, don't bother. This isn't rocket science or brain surgery, this is simply the comfort level of the buyer.
JDG Bronze Member Username: Buckeyeshine Post Number: 86 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 15:54 GMT MyRantz, I'm with patron all the way on this one. I have a T773 and have had no issues whatsoever with it...a very happy NAD customer so far. I challenge anyone to quantify NAD's problems based on posts on a forum. No one can deduce a failure % on their products based on these posts. I won't deny there are some out there as all products have failures, but it's absolutely impossible to make a sound quality conclusion based on a forum, and certainly not like russian roulet. I almost didn't even try NAD because of these psosts initially and now I'm extremely glad I gave them a chance.
Kevin Tracey Bronze Member Username: Kendrid Post Number: 16 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 16:25 GMT From my experience reading the message boards (avsforum, hometheaterforum, hometheaterspot, etc) NAD does have more posts regarding issues than the mass market brands like Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc. While from the posts you can't make the certain claim that NAD has a higher failure rate than the other brands, it has to mean something. There are far more Yamaha and Denon users out there and I rarely see posts regarding issues with their receivers. In the last two years I have personally demoed in my home receivers from Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, NAD and Rotel. Guess which two had problems? NAD and Rotel, the two 'high-end' manufactuers. I liked the NAD sound so I went with a refurb T752. It died two weeks after I got it. I was given a NIB 752 which I sold on Ebay (unopened) and went with another brand. All of the posts about NAD issues and my own unit's failure had left a bad taste in my mouth. Last month I decided that I wanted to try NAD again, so I purchased a refub T762. It was DOA. Strike two. My replacement NIB T753 should be delivered today (it was supposed to arrive yesterday, but FedEx has 'lost' it in their local warehouse). I have to admit that I am nervous that it will hiss or hum. I really hope it doesn't as I really want it to work. For the price I haven't found anything else that sounds as good. As with any expensive purchase, you MUST buy from an authorized dealer that has a good defect/return policy. I can't imagine buying one of these units from one of the online grey market dealers.
AVR Unregistered guest	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 17:04 GMT Smitty, I was almost on the verge of buying an AVR230 when I read your post. I have always been tempted to buy the T742 (don't have a budget for T743). But I'm not sure if I would need the different formats that NAD doesn't support but its competitors do. I will be using it mostly for HT and am not sure if I will even be needing those formats. Also I'm a newbie and I wasn't sure if I would be able to make out the defects (like the hiss and hum mentioned in this thread) or would just take it for granted. Finally calibrating the system gave me second thoughts. What are your comments?
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 226 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 17:17 GMT Already there are strong valid arguements for the defence. It is agreed that no verdict will or could be reached in this case - it was always going to be a hung jury. But . . . "It would be like making claims about the overall political views of the US by reading only a Republican discussion forum." . . . I don't believe this is a biased forum. Receivers of all persuasions do get a say here, however I agree that 'a representative sampling' should not be applied to NAD. But, the ever growing number of posts about issues relating to the brand do not assist its case. My personal experience in researching a quality A/V receiver ended with a very satisfactory outcome (but not without a problem which I posted). However, it began with sheer disappointment and even a little anger as I was really taken in by NADs sound, performance and appearance. Its established great reputation made me look at NAD first. Although I was a little dismayed by issues reported here, it was the lack of confidence formed after discussing them with our local dealer that prevented me from becoming a NAD customer. Content customers will always, and rightly so, recommend products to others. It's human nature just as it is for the discontent to vent their disappointment. If one becomes irate when recommended a lemon one should remember: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This thread was started to gather opinions on why the issues keep popping up here, a consensus was never on the agenda. But it will be interesting and informative if good honest views like those already posted keep coming.
Smitty Bronze Member Username: Smitty Canada Post Number: 58 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 17:36 GMT AVR, Any DVD in the 6.1 format is backward compatible with the 5.1 format so you would always be able to play them on the T742. I have no idea how much difference in the HT experience the extra rear surround speaker(s) make. A critical missing feature on the T742 is the lack of an adjustable subwoofer crossover setting. The crossover on the T742 is fixed at 80Hz, so if you happen to have small satellite speakers that have a bottom range higher than 80Hz then things are not going to sound right. I'm not sure what problems you would have calibrating the system. Have a look at the T742 manual on-line and see if it makes sense to you. This is a good place to look as well to see if there is any feature that's missing that you require. As far as hiss and hum go, if there is a problem in this area it's far from subtle. So you'll definately hear it. But, definately buy from a reputable dealer.
Johnny Silver Member Username: Johnny Missouri Post Number: 300 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 17:40 GMT Rantz, Looking back, maybe that comment of mine that you mentioned conveyed a different message than what I had intended. It was not my intention to imply that the forum was biased, rather to state that it is impossible to get a "representative sampling" from reading a forum such as this...just as it would be to read a Republican forum. Bad example I admit, but my point still remains. Keep it coming guys!!! I love a logical and professional discussion. Jonmoon...great recommendation...words we can all agree with I think...probably the first thing from this thread that we can all agree on!! Wouldn't it be great if we could just get one hour with the NAD execs to openly discuss this sort of thing? Cheers everyone!!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 227 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 20:05 GMT Johnny I understand and do get your point. As always, your views are honest and informative. Thanks.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 766 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 21:19 GMT From the start, NAD promised "Audiophile" performance at "mid-fi" prices. That is still its reputation. People who respond to this may be particularly critical, and pre-disposed to be disappointed from time to time, even if NAD delivers the goods in the majority of cases. If we knew the warranty return frequencies of different brands, that would help. But we would still have to adjust for how high the purchasers' expectations are in the first place. No-one seems to argue that NAD products, when they work, give excellent sound and deliver a high standard of performance. As long as NAD does not leave customers with junk if there is some real problem, then there is something to be said for setting out to get the best sound you can for your money. If almost no purchasers of "brand X" can point to a specific fault, but many are just vaguely dissatisfied, then you would probably not read much about brand X here. Instead we have many posts along the lines of "NAD hums; I took it back; the replacement now sounds wonderful". No-one ever seems to say "works OK but is boring; sounds bad; my friend has brand X and it is much better".
Don Allen Bronze Member Username: W9cw Urbana, IL Post Number: 32 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 03:09 GMT NAD ("New Acoustic Dimension") produces some of the best sounding equipment regardless of price. This has been the case since day one. Many other companies would only dream of having such dedicated, devoted, and loyal customers as represented here on the board. Obviously, there has been some recent problems, but hopefully NAD will resolve all issues through the warranty process. I think it is human nature to be critical, but (for example) low-level hiss emanating from a solid-state amplifier with the volume turned-up when critically listening at a short distance from a speaker is in actuality "quite normal." Transistors do emanate a certain level of white-noise with no input. What will determine overall satisfaction is the performance of the company after the sale. Herein underscores the importance of purchasing the product from an authorized NAD dealer. With the exception of some other brands, e.g. Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Denon, and some Yamaha's, NAD seems to retain the majority of the posts here. Maybe it's because NAD owner's are more altruistic, or critical, than competing brands?? Whatever the reason, if I worked in management for NAD, I would love such feedback - positive and negative. This would directly affect corporate decisions on the design and manufacturing processes for future products.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 767 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 04:56 GMT Quite right, Don. Well said. But you must also bear in mind that a lot of intelligent people fear they won't be able to diagnose what the problem is, if one arises. Many threads here record people's uncertainty about whether the problem is with the system at all, or with them. Probably you, I, and others here will not mind arguing with a dealer/distributor about the source of a problem - you with greater reason that I - but it is a major psychological barrier to many people, and that is not unreasonable, a home theater set-up today is a fairly complicated business. Most people want a "turnkey" solution, and not to have to worry about emerging technical problems. My Rantz starts this thread with a bit of "Hamlet". I have been tempted to quote more from Hamlet's soliloquy.... something about taking arms against a sea of troubles. I don't know where this comes from: "None but the brave deserves the fair." Hmmm... Any NAD execs reading this, that is not an invitation to back off on quality control!
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 768 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 05:06 GMT BTW, Don, if you have any views on possible sources of very occasional "mistracking" on a DVD player, and what to do about it, please take a look at my NAD T533 review. As with the "average person" I mentioned, I am not really sure whether it is a problem with the player at all, or how to find out. I think the dealer will not understand, and it probably won't replicate in the showroom, anyway. BTW there are now some photos there, including the small laminate transformer... Stunning sound quality, though. Really.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 228 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 07:02 GMT To all - thanks for your informative and passionate views. I hope others add their bit as well as I believe this discussion about the reason for the many negative NAD posts will prove interesting and perhaps even beneficial to potential customers since most issues have already been well documented. There is an obvious "NAD is well worth the risk" picture forming here - one painted also by those experiencing a few issues. John A "Hmmm... Any NAD execs reading this, that is not an invitation to back off on quality control!" Stated more tactfully than I. On this I'm not convinced they're on.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 771 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 13:04 GMT My Rantz, Thanks. When I first got Netscape, they had a policy of releasing everything as a "beta" version, meaning we, the users, were doing their software quality control for them. Since it was free, you could hardly complain. I am sure it is not NAD's intention to ship receivers etc. with faults. The cost in returns, and also dented reputation, would be too high. But there has to be some calculation of when they believe they are ready for a release, and what the possible costs and consequences will be. Any manufacturer could probably spend its entire budget on quality control, leaving nothing for the essentials, and still have unforeseen problems. I suppose they just weigh things up and give it their best shot. That all any manufacturer can do. Delivering "perfection" is marketing hype and no-one should pay any attention. One moral for those lacking courage is "don't be an early adopter" - i.e. let the impatient guys (like me!) find the "known issues" so the manufacturer can change the design to address them. We still don't know whether this is especially true of NAD. Personally, I doubt it. What I do think we see here is that NAD customers tend to have high standards, and are a critical and argumentative bunch. They also tend have access to the internet, and at home, probably. I suppose that is what you would expect from NAD addressing the "audiophile for less money" market sector. Personally, I don't mind owning up to be right in it! That is not exclusively NAD customers, of course. For example, some Marantz owners, too......
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 229 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 00:04 GMT John A Thanks again. Yes, NAD is not exclusive when it comes to having customers with high standards nor, for that matter, internet access. And NAD, by many an audiophile's standard, is not king. But, there is no argument from me nor most enthusiasts that they do deliver that standard in an excellent product for the money - when all is well. Of course NAD is certainly not alone in releasing some components with problematic issues to the market and we are all aware that the road to excellence does not lead to perfection. I have never put much credence in advertising blurb, but even if NAD promised "Audiophile performance at K-mart prices," for most customers, the expectation of audiophile performance would not be unreasonable. But, there still seems to be an excessive number of customers on this board having those expectations dashed, when after replacements, or repairs still fail to deliver the promised goods. There should be no excuse for these occurrences. Regardless of the brand, a replaced or repaired component should be thoroughly tested prior to returning to the customer and this is where NAD, IMO, needs to wield a big stick over its distributors and service agents. Apart from being financially beneficial for NAD, their customer satisfaction rating would be much improved.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 787 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 04:28 GMT My Rantz, I am in complete agreement. "The road to excellence does not lead to perfection". Absolutely. In my view, many people seem to think it does, and they are quite mistaken. Is that a quote? All I can say on the subject you raise, and it is repetition (Apr 28), is that I have never read even a single post here along the lines of "I just bought an NAD and it sounds awful". Quite on the contrary. And if qualified and knowledgable guys such as Don recommend NAD sound quality, that counts for something.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 231 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 04:54 GMT John A "The road to excellence does not lead to perfection". It's loosly based on a quote by whom I cannot remember. And apart from my QC views, the NAD recommendations from many (yourself included) herein count for quite a lot.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 792 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 11:21 GMT Thanks, My Rantz. That is the best compliment there can be. Maybe it is a sort of paraphrase, but I think that there is no such thing as perfection in the real world. Furthermore, if we happened, quite by chance, to stumble on something perfect, we could never know that that was what it was. Nothing is, or ever should be, immune from criticism.
Robert Gatt Bronze Member Username: Gatt767 Malta Post Number: 48 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 12:45 GMT My Rantz, what about starting a tread, about problems concerning other brands? It would be quite healthy not to focus always on NAD gear within this forum. What about Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Samsung, Pioneer etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. all of them seem to have their fair share of problems within their products. Am I correct? My Rantz, from what I have read within these threads, NAD wasn't your choice of AV hardware for your set-up. It would be nice, plus help others in the making of a good decision if you share with us what are the current issues that your facing within your AV set-up, if any and at least what are the changes that you would like to be corrected within the next Range of Marantz receivers. Plus if your happy with Marantz customer care etc...etc...... As if I was in the Market or I am new to this hobby and I am in the process of buying new gear for my HT system, reading these threads and continuously pinpointing to a particular manufacturer, would surely put me off from any NAD gear. Within, my HT setup, which has grown during the years, plus have a good experience of other brands within the market, I have had top of the range equipment from other brands, currently switched off which are gathering dust in a corner. The reason is, that they needed continuous software upgrades, due to the multitude of bugs, no support from the mother company, always redirecting me to the local agents. And finally the hardware generated a fault that the local agent did not want to fix, as it wasn't financially feasible! I have moved to NAD, as the products bought during the years, did not suffer 1) From any mull function 2) Local agent showed that he had at least good knowledge of the subject 3) Local agent was always willing to help, 4) Plus NAD always replied to any queries that I have posted within there site! 5) Equipment is simple to Use 6) You are receiving what you are paying for (no gimmicks) So please, any new members joining these forums, or others who are just making a search on the NET, go and audition your hardware of choice, make comparisons, and if your happy with what you hear/see, and the local agent is good in the work he do, just buy it! Its not a good feeling of buying something new and spending your hard earned money, and your already thinking that the products bought are already faulty! All because some faulty units which came out of the production line (like any other Product from any other manufacturer) reached some very unfortunate customers!
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 795 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 22:43 GMT Great, Robert. I read most of the NAD "issue" threads here before deciding, recently, to get their latest T533 DVD player. It has fantastic sound at modest cost. I can recommend it. From my own experience, I agree with your 1-6, and can add 7: even if the unit is out of warranty, NAD will advise, and address any problem that comes up. They also keep a long stock of spare parts. That is service. They actually seem to want customers to get the best out of their products. The repair was required on just one unit (a receiver) out of four NAD products I own. My fears that the T533 might have some flaw were cancelled out by my confidence that it would be fixed, that the manufacturer would take responsibility, not just walk away claiming the problem was with me. My local Sony Center, in contrast, just lacks expertise, and charges more for "repair" (even if they don't actually do anything) than it would cost you to buy a whole, new replacement. This is for two units (microphone - still not working; audio cassette recorder) out of four Sony products. And upper-range models, too. Now I think of it, I also have a Sony Discman that has recently gone kaput. I could not face the hassle. Perhaps that is what they want? That makes three not up to spec, out of five. And try e-mailing Sony, or finding a Sony manual in pdf form. It could be the small sample size, and just the luck of the draw. But it was clear all along which of the two brands had any interest at all in customer service and after-sales support. For other makes, I only have one of anything. I think that is not enough to generalize!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 234 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 22:43 GMT Robert Thanks and well stated. I began this thread merely to gather opinions from people such as yourself on the reason why NAD issues on this board appear much more than others. My original choice for A/V was Nad and I explained why I did not proceed. I am a great fan of NAD which I have stressed herein and elsewhere. My problem with my Marantz receiver was well documented in this forum and the solution did not give cause to require assistance from my dealer or the Marantz distributor. As stated, I am very happy with our receiver and set-up. The reason why I did not buy NAD was more than likely quite unique and should not be a deterrent to others. What has become obvious in this thread are 2 main opinions 1. There is no real way to judge whether NAD components have any more problems than other brands. 2. That even those who have had some problems with their NAD gear will still advocate their excellence and would readily purchase again. Will would-be customers be deterred from purchasing NAD components because of this thread? IMO, not if they read between the lines. Would they be put off by all the others threads relating to these isssues? IMO, quite possibly! If I or anyone else began a thread relating to problems from any brand, the outcome may well be similar to what appears already on this board and therefore maybe not help your cause. What you say is very true: Audition the equipment, trust your own ears and most importantly, purchase through a reputable, authorised dealer who will promise excellent customer service. Again, I will stress that I am not bashing NAD - far from it - I am questoning their QC and if anyone wishes to do the same about any othe brands they are entitled to do so.
landroval Bronze Member Username: Landroval Post Number: 96 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 23:01 GMT 1. There is no real way to judge whether NAD components have any more problems than other brands. I disagree. In every hifi-related discussion board that I have been reading for the last couple of months (US, UK, France, Finland, Sweden, been there done that) there is at least a couple very long threads about NAD owners complaining about the problems they're having. NAD is definitely not a mainstream product and does not have a huge market share, so with this many people having problems clearly means that there is a large percent of malfunctioning NAD units. To say otherwise will be lying to yourself. 2. That even those who have had some problems with their NAD gear will still advocate their excellence and would readily purchase again. True. Everything I've read or heard about NAD is related to how great they sound or about their problems. Nobody ever whines about his/her NAD sounding bad.
jeff obregon Bronze Member Username: Billdashill Post Number: 84 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 23:53 GMT Another thought. Manufacturers of all types have problem products. NAD has been having problems 3 or 4 years in a row now and management dosen't seem to be doing anything about it. When NAD has that proverbial "home-run" year where all their products really shine, I'll be the first one on line to buy their product. Well maybe not the first one, but you get the idea.
Jan Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 04:58 GMT Try this, guys. Maybe there are more complaints on this site about NAD quality because there are more NAD owners that read and contribute to this site. Yes, there are Denon, Yamaha and other brands represented but my guess would be there are a large percentage of people using this site familiar with NAD's reputation and therefore purchasing NAD because of the reputation of the brand. It is similar to the most stolen cars: Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Honda Civic. Amazingly the most popular cars to buy are: Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Honda Civic. If there are more of something represented there are more mentions of good and bad issues. Many companies have quality control problems throughout their history. A good company usually has good dealers who will stand behind the product. Remember, the dealer would like return customers and that happens when the customer is satisfied they were treated fairly. Any company that has problems will do their best to fix the situation. They also want return customers and recommendations. But it is a very fast moving market today where thousands of units can be shipped before a problem is noticed. Only a small percentage of units are pulled from the line for complete testing and that is on a test bench. Fewer still are hooked up to speakers and sources. Because of market pressures it is not that unusual for a company to ship a product and have a repair ready when it hits the market. It's frustrating but those are the economics of the market and, as with cars, the number of problems per 100 units is small compared to 20 years ago. It is also a market where everyone is scrambling to make a competitive product which means costs are watched very closely and warranty repairs are very costly to a company. Good companies pull through with their reputations a bit bruised but often better for the experience. Lesser companies just fade away. NAD has weathered this pretty well so far. My money is on NAD.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 798 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 05:27 GMT So is mine, Jan. jeff: "NAD has been having problems 3 or 4 years in a row now and management dosen't seem to be doing anything about it." How do we know that? NAD owners posting on this forum, and others, comprise a self-selecting sample. No opinion poll could arrive at any conclusion if conducted this way, and self-selecting samples are useless for market research. We have no base for comparison. For that, we would have to look outside anything that anybody writes here. It is all anecdotal.
JW Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 07:18 GMT JA, Precisely, it IS the degree, the breadth and the scale of anecdotal reports, i.e sampling, by which logical conclusions are drawn when no statistical evidence exists. The degree, breadth and scale of these NAD QA issues are readily self-evident on a plurality of audio forum sites across the internet. These reports have not been predetermined but exist for what they are: independent reports on a large scale from a variety of sources regarding bona fide NAD quaility control problems. This information provides a valid form of associative decision making. Therefore, in no manner, does it comprise a self-selecting sample. This is, you are aware and I admit, the full contention to the NAD issue and, you are fully entitled to disregard it. In doing so, the issue is wholly moot and futile.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 802 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 08:29 GMT JW, My point is as follows, and I think it is My Rantz's, too (he may wish to comment). Null hypothesis: new NAD products have a frequency of faults that is the same as the mean of the frequencies of faults of products from other audio manufacturers. How do we test the "null hypothesis"? By taking samples at random from the population of new NAD products, and from the population of all audio manufacturers' new products. If we then just count the number of faulty units in those samples, and count the total number of units in those samples, we would know the frequencies of faults. We could then apply some simple statistics, and come to some conclusion about the probability that the "Null hypothesis" is correct, or incorrect. What do we know we do not have? Random sampling, that's what. Instead, the reports of faults come from people who themselves decide, for whatever reason, to make those reports. That is not random. The sample is selecting itself. That's what I meant. Sorry if I was not clear. If there is a way out of this, I would be pleased to know. It would have many and wide applications. As Jan said, what can you conclude about the different rates of theft of different makes of car? Not much about the cars, unless we can be sure that the thieves steal cars at random. Which seems unlikely, we have to admit. We might learn something about thieves, of course. Even then, we would have to assume that all cars were equally easy to break into, and to drive away.
JW Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 14:53 GMT JA, Probably, there is no way out of this. As this writer is the final word on little (except to my fourteen year-old), time to move on, hug my wife and kid, and listen to some music thru my NAD. It has been informative and amusing plus, what a relief, the internet is the final frontier where the boardroom talking heads are not looking over my shoulder and menacing my opinions. Gotta do one final dig, 17 months left on the 2 year NAD warranty; living dangerously is such a thrill. Enjoy the music.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 808 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 15:31 GMT JW, Thanks! But look - you are now another sample. And you are "pro"! We didn't know that! Don't worry. Even if your NAD fails in eight months, you can get it fixed, and it will be good as new. You just can't say that about so many brands, who want you to buy a whole new one. And they will probably try to fool you it has something new. I agree totally about the final frontier. All the best to you, and your family.
JW Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 16:14 GMT JA, Likewise.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 810 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 17:00 GMT JW, Thanks. Really.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 236 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 19:57 GMT Guys Excellent arguments and in tremendous style! "My point is as follows, and I think it is My Rantz's, too (he may wish to comment)." John A - I don't know. Is chaos random? Heck, let's not get into that! Is NAD in chaos - I seriously doubt it. But, I still think they got some work to do. Yet, another customer has returned #3 https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/16388.html But, he remains loyal to the brand so that too stands for something!
Invierno Bronze Member Username: Invierno Post Number: 42 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 23:08 GMT I'm the one who just returned #3. I'm not sure that I would say I've remained loyal to the brand, but I am pretty sure the T973 amp I'm now getting will be just fine. And I'm hoping I get some of the NAD sound from the amp, despite having a non-NAD pre-amp. I do think, ignoring all other posts and simply looking at my own experience (which is problems with three units in a row), that NAD has some issues with its current batch of T773's -- noting also that this sort of thing is common for many companies. One partially related issue. Something that DOES make me concerned about NAD's quality control is their manual. The manual for the T773 has errors, ambiguities, or omissions on just about every other page. Such issues with a manual can be a sign of problems in the product. Note that I say "can be" not "are" of course but combined with my personal experience it is enough to make me, personally, worry about quality control. Just wish one of the 773's had worked out -- ah well.
St. Louis Blues Unregistered guest	Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 03:59 GMT Boyz- Been up and running w/ my Nad T763 for a couple of months now (see earlier posts). No problems. Running the older firmware as well. Based on the pasts here- d/k if I am the lucky one- or you (esp. those w/ multi-failures) are snake-bit, or aren't living clean.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 820 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 07:34 GMT My Rantz, Yes, chaos is random. That's exactly what it is. Instead of "Random sampling" I should probably have written "samples, chosen at random". Get on the end of the NAD assembly line and throw a dice to choose which one to try - that sort of thing. Invierno, I agree with you about the manuals. My new NAD T533 review here mentions a few things. It is not just me wanting good, clear English: they are off the track on a number of things, for example, saying analogue 5.1 out is available only on Dolby Digital. If you didn't already know what to do, that manual gives some very bad advice. And doesn't explain at all what the available formats are all about. I formed the impression that the version I read was just translated badly from whatever was the original language. St. Louis Blues, Great!
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 830 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 18:28 GMT JW, My linking this thread, to save another one from going over the same issues and away from its original topic, produced anger from the first poster there. I don't know why, but it would be foolish to return there. But let me respond to your point, there, which was "battle lines are drawn" , if I remember. I do not see any battle lines. All I see is "case not proven". As far as I can see. If someone knows more, please let them speak. That's about it!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 241 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 19:43 GMT "I object, your honour, all this is sheer speculation!" "Sustained!" One thing to note, I was told by fore-mentioned dealer (who also does the servicing) that NAD pays him a small fee ($40AU if I recall correctly) for each warranty service. I don't know how true this is or whether it applies to other brands, but if so, it makes one wonder how much we would pay for components if warranty issues were virtually non-existant. I also wonder if such an amount would make for thorough servicing when most centers charge (for non warranty repairs) about $90AU plus per hour. As electronics have become more complex, the move to manufacturing in cheaper labour countries is maybe what keeps these companies afloat. Let's hope they are not actually cutting of their nose despite their face!
landroval Bronze Member Username: Landroval Post Number: 100 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 19:56 GMT Yeah, lets argue about NAD problems only here and leave other threads unspoiled... What I cant understand is how you people try to "convince" yourself that NAD hasn't got more problems than others. What kind of proof do you want in addition to those multiple threads around the globe with people whining about NAD hiss, hum, dropout, malfunction etc. Have you seen anyone complaining about five consecutive non-working Yamahas or Sonys? I dont think so. So NAD == bad QC. If I got you wrong, I'm sorry. (Although I can always hide behind the language barrier... wow 100th post)
Robert Gatt Bronze Member Username: Gatt767 Malta Post Number: 53 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 20:39 GMT I have convinced myself, because, what I have bought from NAD has never gave me any problems at all. And Within my current ht setup, I have 4 products from NAD ,and all working very perfectly when compared with other Brands!!!
Anonymous	Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 01:36 GMT I still dont get the point of this thread, I might be very stupid right. But if I dont like a product I dont get it. If NAD's quality is bad how can this affect you all? Just dont get NAD products period. "Oh! NAD's quality products is BAD, lets get them" NONE SENSE. i am a stupid.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 246 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 01:57 GMT Anonymous The point of this thread is in the interest of gathering opinions. And we thank you for yours. The fact is that there are an exraordinary number of audio enthusiasts who do like NAD's products and there are concerns from some about their QC. But, they are all intelligent enough to make decisions based on what they like or don't like. Hopefully, you submitted your post before proofing it!
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 851 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 04:50 GMT My Rantz, Thank you for being a good "chairman" of this thread! I take Invierno's point. From landroval and anon (May 03) I see I totally failed to make clear my position, and I think a few others', in three posts on Apr 30 and, especially, one on May 01. I have to say I don't know how else to say it. If anything there made no sense, please let me know, and I'll try to take a better shot at it.
Sean R. Roberts Bronze Member Username: Srkstan Kazakhstan Post Number: 45 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:05 GMT I just want to let My Rantz know that I appreciate him starting this thread. I have been reading it with interest and anxiety, and it has helped me make my receiver decision. Largely due to the thoughtful posts on this thread, I have just bought a refurbished NAD T762 from an authorized dealer who has promised to test it a full six hours prior to shipping the unit. I have come to the conclusion from this thread that one either gets a great deal on this receiver or a lemon, but it also seems that NAD customer service is willing to work with people. Let me be the first in a new random sample--I am not an audiophile, but a newbie. I will let people know in two or three weeks if I did the right thing!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 248 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:25 GMT Sean, Thank you. And congratulations on your decision. Whether or not NAD has more QC issues than others, the fact remains that there is no concensus and that you are soon to be thrilled with the great sound and performance of your receiver. Because of the many issue reports here, I had trouble recommending them to you especially because of your diffilcult geograhic location. It sounds like you are dealing with someone who understands this. Looking forward to your reports! Good Luck in Kazakhstan.
richard kim New member Username: Slimmer Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 08:57 GMT I think that it's pretty obvious that NAD has some pretty serious QC issues. What other company has so many refurbished products available. However, I for one saw this as an opportunity. I bought a refurbished NAD T752 for the ridiculous price of $500. The receiver's left channel would not work periodically, so I had it replaced for the cost of shipping. Ended up spending about $560 for a $900 receiver that will blow away most if not all sub $1000 receivers. Totally destroys my old Denon 1803! My advice is if you're on a budget get a NAD refurb, if not on a budget buy separates. Thanks to everybody who posts here. Happy Camper
Sem Bronze Member Username: Sem Post Number: 68 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 12:16 GMT Richard, If I may. One possible reason for refurbished units, is a firmware upgrade. Now this upgrade(s), (very common in the computer industry actually), could have been released to correct problems found only after the product hit the masses. Many of the units returned for this for this upgrade may have still been on dealer shelves, thus new in box. In this scenario, I believe the equipment cannot be sold as new, but refurbished. Sounds like you've got everything settled now and are enjoying your NAD. Congratulations.
Paul Reynolds Bronze Member Username: Hab Post Number: 27 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 03:02 GMT Just posted the message below in response to another thread & saw this one. Seems to fit in here also. Believe me, I loved the NAD sound & wanted more than anything to get a working unit. I have waited almost 3 months for that to happed & it never has. The NAD problems are real & abundant. My dealer CANNOT get me one that works no matter what he does. He has been in touch with NAD on & off for over 2 months & has had many units shipped here for me. NOT ONE unit he has tried in-store hasn't had the annoying noise problem. It isn't imagined, it isn't the set-up, it isn't a few units in a shipment (NAD send units from different lots). It's NAD & it's REAL!!! Paul Reynolds Bronze Member Username: Hab Post Number: 26 Registered: Feb-04 Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 10:37 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon, Get rid of that NAD ASAP!!!. I bought a 752 a few months back with the same problem. Since then I have had five 753's to replace it but all had the same problem. The dealer hooked up every NAD receiver of the T-Seies he had in his shop & they all were faulty...the 742/3's, 752/3's, 762/3's & the 772/3's. Even units they had received from the plant that they had been assured were checked before shipping had the same awful noise that can be heard from anywhere in the room. The dealer was great through it all but very suprised that the problem existed & at NAD's refusal to acknowledge it. He gave me back my money after all these months & apologized for my inconvenience. Get rid of that NAD!!!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 252 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 03:57 GMT Paul Sorry to hear of your NAD troubles. Your story emphasises why I'm not convinced NAD doesn't have QC problems. Every T-series receiver in the shop was faulty? Units shipped in from the plant with assurances they were checked yet the problem still persits? Everyone Paul has had a 3 month nightmare instead of 3 months of what should have been sheer pleasure. We have no reason to question Paul's veracity and he is not alone in his quest for NAD satisfaction. Put aside any problems with other brands, is this indicative of a brand that claims "Audiophile performance", a brand that has gained a substantial reputation in its field? IMO, the random selection process did not apply in this instance - something remains very much amiss in the NAD camp. Maybe NAD is not at fault. Maybe their opposition has infected the software with a virus. Whatever the reason, what Paul went through is disgraceful!
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 875 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 06:28 GMT My Rantz, "Whatever the reason, what Paul went through is disgraceful!" I agree. Totally.
Paul Reynolds Bronze Member Username: Hab Post Number: 29 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:26 GMT --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guys, The problem was noise from all speakers, clearly heard from anywhere in my large (36' x 16') room. It happened as soon as I connected a sub cable ( & I tried many types of cables from the cheapest to the most expensive) to the sub out on the receiver. The noise was a loud humm/squeal that was heard in all modes except stereo (2 Channel) & didn't change with volume changes. Even if the other end of the sub cable was not connected to my sub, the problem occurred. My old Sony was fine with the same set-up, as is the Marantz I have now. In the shop YES, ALL the NADS he tried gave the same noise as I was getting in my house. Other brand receivers in this shop set-up worked perfectly. C'mon guys, it's time to lay the blame where it belongs. These NAD's have a problem that they will not admit to & will not or cannot fix. I have E-Mailed NAD twice from their website with the CONTACT/SUBMIT icon explaining everything & asking them if they can get me a unit that works before I buy a different brand but have gotten no response.
Kevin Tracey Bronze Member Username: Kendrid Post Number: 27 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 02:44 GMT Paul - you did experience something that is obviously wrong, but if it is a model wide issue shouldn't there be more posts about it? It is an odd situation. FYI: I'm not an NAD 'fanboy' - I'm still nervous about the reliability of my new 753 after having two other dead NAD receivers (T752 and 762).
JW Unregistered guest	Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 03:05 GMT Sometimes, the obvious needs to be restated: Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:30 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Et tu NAD, you have Quality Control problems. MR, you have spearheaded a post often considered by this writer - and told it like it is. Kudos to you. This board can be qualified as follows: 1)"All manufacturers have faulty units". Singularly, this board screams a myriad of problems. What does it take to acknowledge the obvious NAD headaches? Ye of little faith, check out the reviews on Audioreview.com or any other audio board for further conviction on NAD's incompetence. True, no industry reports are available, by any relative logic it is apparent that NAD exceeds the limits of acceptable standards. 2) "It must be your set-up". We are into the second decade of ubiquitous home PC ownership; most have upgraded everything from RAM to drives plus software literacy. As we are not congenital electronic dysfunctionals, setting up a home theatre rig without Hiss/Hum is not usually a monumental grasp. It's not your imagination, the problem is NAD not the operator. 3)"My dealer said NAD has no more problems than any other receiver." When shopping for my NAD receiver, a respected and prominent dealer responded with email, "stay away from the T752 and T742, too many problems." 3)"Replacements, replacements for replacements, hiss, hum, channel drop-outs, DOA's, display malfunctions." Self-condemning, no comment. 4)"NAD has exhibited excellent service support". Hallelujah, in light of #1,#2,#3. So, what do I own, NAD, of course. Really, had no choice because the sound framework is so superior for the money. However, the smug attitude that my NAD is running OK is a disservice to newbies or those on a stretched budget (remember, we were all there at one time) that can ill afford an economic loss or lack of an objective opinion on NAD's quality. My sense, be wary of NAD's quality and consider the many other options if QC/QA is an issue. "NAD's are the best of times and the worst of times".
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 262 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 05:11 GMT JW "So, what do I own, NAD, of course. Really, had no choice because the sound framework is so superior for the money." If there is a concensus here that statement seem to be it" and "NAD's are the best of times and the worst of times" certainly appears to be on the money right now. If only top management from NAD would take a glance at these forums. To expect an explanation might be a stretch but it would be hoped they'd give more than a passing thought.
budget minded Bronze Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 37 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:38 GMT i'll just add my 2 cents to the points brought up. i own an older NAD 2 channel reciever, and it's LED screen is totally shot. i'm pretty sure i've seen this before. i bought it from a local dealer who did in fact drop all NAD products and claim that it was because of reliability issues. i DON'T like NAD sound at all. it's too warm and muffled for my tastes though not quite as overly polite as sony. i bought a 55 w/ch onkyo DTS reciever for only $250 and immediately preferred it's sound over the NAD and not by the expected "small margin." the onkyo has much better treble extension and clarity that the NAD with my soft domed super zeros. i was surprised that a cheaper 5 channel "mass market" reciever totally stomped the NAD for clarity and much better imaging. that aside, i'll still probably upgrade to an NAD next as it's the only affordable reciever brand that can handle the 4 ohm load of the magnepans that i want so badly. if i were shopping for 8 ohm spekers, i'd definately go with onkyo (or denon) long before buying "bloated sounding" NAD. if it weren't for the ugly gold color displays, i'd consider yamaha too. the ONLY thing that NAD has going for it in my opinion is the ability to handle 4 ohm loads. if you prefer warm sound, then it would suit you better than me. i like treble extension and bass rolloff.
Smitty Bronze Member Username: Smitty Canada Post Number: 67 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:49 GMT budget minded, If you prefer the sound of onkyo over NAD, why don't you stick with the onkyo? According to this review even the TX-SR601 model can handle 4ohm loads: Onkyo TX-SR601 Review quote: Due to the impedance of the Axiom Audio speakers, the Onkyo was in for a challenge. The M80ti(s) are rated at 4-ohms each, with the remaining 3 speakers coming in at 6-ohms. The Onkyo receiver is rated at 150W per channel according to JEITA (Japan Electronics and Information Technology Industries Association), 120W per channel according to DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm), and 110W per channel according to the FTC when connected to a 6-ohm load at 1kHz (2 channels driven), < 0.1% THD). The FTC rates the SR601 at 85W per channel into 8-ohms with < 0.08% THD (2 channels driven, 20Hz -- 20kHz). When connected to the Axioms, I was pleased at how well the Onkyo could power the speakers at relatively high volumes. As the M80ti(s) can play extremely loud, cranking up the Onkyo to near its maximum yielded some audible distortion -- this was not entirely surprising given the technical ratings of the equipment.
Ghia Cabriolet Bronze Member Username: Ghiacabriolet NC Post Number: 63 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 14:11 GMT I have had a NAD c350 integrated amp for several years and have not had any problems with it. I just ordered the T763 from Kiefs. I asked them whether they had seen more quality issues with the NAD equipment vs other equipment and was told that this has not been the case at their store. The salesman said he uses a T752 at home and has never had an issue with it. I'll post my T763 experience (good or bad) once I've received it.
William Persson Unregistered guest	Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 16:41 GMT I bought a T763 and a T533 dvd a few days ago, despite the posts I've read on this forum about NAD's potential quality problems. After installing it I first noticed the infamous humm, which appears even when I have no external source connected to the reciever. It doesn't matter which listening mode I use, there is noise coming from all active channels, no matter which level of volume. The noise is clearly audible from distances of 2-3 meters and I don't find that acceptable. Then the analog right channel of the dvd-player died. I tried to switch between different inputs on the reciever, but the problem wasn't there, it was the dvd-player. Suddenly, when I was sitting on the floor feeling sorry for myself, the right channel kicked in again, without me touching anything. I also used to have a NAD stereo rig a few years ago, amp/cd/tuner. The amp broke down twice and the tuner once. The above mentioned experiences together with all negative posts on this forum have made me consider abandoning NAD for something else, probably Denon. It's a shame, NAD has great looking and sounding gear but that doesn't do much if their stuff keep on malfunctioning.
oknessaD New member Username: Oknessad Post Number: 4 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 22:38 GMT This is a very interesting post and I'm glad it has seen the volume of "quality" opinions that is has. It's easy to say "NAD sucks" or "I love my NAD" but thanks everyone for their inputs. Now for my story. I like many NAD owners went into my local A/V shop to listen to a variety of receivers and speakers and ended up enjoying the NAD sound paired with PSB the best. I mulled it over for a period of a few months keeping up to date with the posts on this forum. Well, just this last week I placed an order with DMC Electronics for a refurb T752. I am hoping for the best and will post what comes of my purchase. It has the latest 1.22 firmware as well so I'll have to see if that makes a difference in my case. One thing I am now curious about is how does DMC do with returns/repairs? I live in WI and with them in CA I can imagine I might be responsible for shipping but as long as they are an authorized dealer and the refurb unit has a 1 year warranty, they will be able to replace or repair it if there are any problems correct? Anyone dealt with DMC before? I've heard really great things about them before which is mainly why I went with them as my preferred place to buy. Thanks for any and all help.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 964 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 04:09 GMT Following my post of May 01 and others around that time, let me try another approach. Denon 2200 DVD/SACD/CD player I have read three reports here of the Denon 2200 player. Two (Kegger and 2c, I think) are pleased; no problem. One (Adam) finds a clear problem; it will not play many CDs. Faulty units:1. Good units: 2. Total units (sample size): 3. Frequency of faulty units: 1/3 = 33%. Cambridge Audio Azur 540R receiver. I have read two reports. Anonymous says "fine". Viper on Curious about Cambridge Audio Azur 540R? reports a QC issue. Faulty units:1. Good units: 1. Total units (sample size): 2. Frequency of faulty units: 1/2 = 50%. I think all will agree that 33% Denon 2200s with faults is unacceptable. Perhaps this is why they are rumoured to be discontinued soon? 50% Camb Audio Azur receivers is much worse. Surely this model will bomb when word gets around? It would be a lot of work to do this for NAD products, from the posts on this forum alone. Does this help to make my point about sampling, and statistical inference? oknessa, Sorry I cannot help with DMC. People in US have experience. I am sure you will get some advice. Try "search" with "DMC" Let me say I think you have made a good decision on the basis of value for money. If there is a one-in-three chance of your T752 having a fault, this seems, from the above argument, to be about par for the course for Denon and Cambridge Audio... Let us know how you get on. Fingers crossed.
j vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 05:36 GMT I have dealt with DMC and had a very good experience. I would say they were better than I expected and would recommend their company. I would also suggest, as a former audio salesperson, that if your local dealer has treated you fairly in the past and given you their time and knowledge it is only fair to give that dealer your business whenever possible. Most dealers are willing to work with you on pricing. My last experience with NAD (the people, not the product) was less than satisfying and I fear they may be feeling the "people make decisions based on money" attitude that has led to the ruin of several good companies. I hope I am wrong, but, it is the small dealer who offers service who will keep audio from sinking to the level of the big box stores and manufacturers from following the money to "once was great, now it's just another amplifier" territory. I'll get off my soap box now, thank you.
landroval Silver Member Username: Landroval Post Number: 123 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 06:56 GMT John A: I hope that was a joke. It's not fair to compare the brand new, first in a line 540R with NADs that have been out for like ~5 years. If CA will repair all the issues (IMO not too bad ones, no hissing or humming) in a couple of weeks after release with just switching two chips, then I would say their quality control works a bit better than that of NAD wich cant assure quality no matter what they do.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 971 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 10:49 GMT oknessa, As a long-term customer, not dealer, I wish to keep Jan's soap-box warm while he is away. Apart from "only being fair" (which is correct) you will also get far, far more long-term value for money from a good dealer who values your satisfaction with the product(s) he has sold you. And he is the representative of the manufacturer, who thinks the same way. What is in it for them is that they want you, yourself, to actually be pleased with the sale, relying on you to make up your own mind, and maybe to tell friends where you got the best service, and why you are so pleased with what you bought. A lot of the money burned today is spent by people who think they have got the best possible deal but for whom, when anything goes wrong, everyone walks away (manufacturer; dealer; distributor - and with DMC etc. the carrier ) from you the customer, shaking their heads and each blaming the other. When the DMC man comes round, ask his advice on connecting A/V receivers. If he does know, try calling DMC. If they can help, and don't charge you for their time, take what they say with a pinch of salt: the next time you phone back you will probably get a different person, and therefore the first already knew he would not have to get it right, because he would never hear from you again. Then ask either of them about, say, something like matching tone-arms and pick-up cartridges, the best new surround format for sound quality. As a base for comparison, put in the search string "Vigne" here, and see the wealth of knowledge, insight and expertise you come up with. Then decide where you will really get the best deal. Also, before buying, try to HEAR what you are intending to purchase. Would you buy a car without taking it for a drive? Really. This is my honest opinion.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 972 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 11:08 GMT landroval, Thank you. It was not a "joke", meaning "trying to be funny". As in your reply on May 02 to my post on May 01, and I thank you for that, too, I see I have not made my point clear. I think it is an important one, applying to many things. One of the real pioneers of statistics - he pretty well invented it - was a guy whose first publication was something called something like "a study of the efficacy of prayer". He came away concluding not that prayer was effective or ineffective, but that we had no way of knowing, either way, on the basis of what people report from their own experience. He get "flamed", as you may imagine. We all get "flamed", all the time, on many issues. Sometimes the flames get out of control. For all you and I know, the world is about to get into a massive and dangerous confrontation. All because people don't understand what counts as grounds for believing something to be true. I do not mean to lecture, but there is almost nothing as important, today, than people having some grasp of when it is, and is not, reasonable to conclude things. I can't really do more than I have done, here. Perhaps someone else would like to have a go? You have a lot of experience and make some good points here, on other topics, all just in my opinion, for what it is worth. If you will be specific with the problem you have with my argument, I will certainly have another go.
Johnny Silver Member Username: Johnny Missouri Post Number: 305 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 13:54 GMT John A., Great points!! Your argument was very clear to me, but I may be a little biased on the subject. I am sure some people will be unwilling to admit it, but as "illogical" and "oversimplified" as your examples sound, this parallels very closely to the claims that many have been making about NAD. As landroval says, it may not be right to make claims about the CA Azur being that it is on its first production run, but the NAD 7x3 line is relatively new to the market too...yet no one hesitates to make claims about those units or about NAD as a whole. I don't think your argument can be stated any better. For those who have had major problems (and even some who haven't) with NAD, it is going to be impossible for your argument to take hold...just as it will be impossible for us who have had no problems to join the "NAD sucks" camp. I think if we let it, this debate may go on forever..... As for DMC Electronics, I have heard nothing but good things about them. I can't speak to them specifically, but some dealers who sell over the phone will even pay the shipping to have a defective unit returned and to have a new one sent to you.
oknessaD New member Username: Oknessad Post Number: 6 Registered: May-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 15:02 GMT John A, In response to your above points I'd like to say I am still glad I went with DMC Electronics. I did go to my local AV shop and the prices they quoted me (their "best deal") was about $450 more than DMC. I figure even if I have to send the NAD back and forth 4 times (which I doubt will happen) I am still getting a better deal. Also, Whenever I have called DMC be it at night in the morning, whenever, I always talk to the same guy David who is extremely helpful and I feel wants to make my experience a good one. My local AV shop on the other hand seems to care very little about questions I have and the purchase I'm interested in so naturally I would not want to pay a premium price to get sub-par service. It is not only about "being fair" as you mentioned. In this new and wonderful world of being able to buy a product from anywhere from anybody, these older dealers need to step up to the plate and realize they are not dealing with a captive audience any longer and can't do business as they once did. I agree that it would be very easy for a company like DMC to ignore their distant customers or pass me off to some one else but this would just not be smart. David knows that my father is also interested in a new audio system and so if my purchase is pleasurable then it will be reported to him and so on. Also, David knew that I was calling him based on recommendations I've heard on this board. The best advertising a company can do is take good care of a customer every time and watch the word of mouth referrals come in. Something else I have been pondering is the NAD reliability debate we have going on here. First off, my conclusion has been that yes, NAD does seem to have more problem units than other companies. But, there are a couple important things to consider before passing NAD off as a problem laden brand. First, the mentions of problems on this board are not random as John A has mentioned. These people are actively searching out a place to make their voice heard about their trouble with a product. A high percentage of the population who buys a NAD receiver that works fine has no reason to join a forum like this and therefore we never tend to hear from that group. The fact that we do hear more about NAD problems on here does mean there may be more problems with them but don't let it sway you into thinking that half or most NAD receivers come back with faults. Its just that the people who have a problem are more likely to search out help, thus posting on this board about it. Make sense? (thats my logic anyways) Second point is regarding the statistics people use to make these conclusions about NAD or other products. John A has done a good job illustrating (at least I'm pretty sure this is what he's going at) that statistics can only be so good. If for instance we took a survey of randomly selected NAD owners of say a T752 receiver, it is unlikely that we would find as high a percentage of problem reports as we do on this board. The reason being the same that it is wise to avoid listening to those CNN Call-in type polls. The only people who respond would be the ones who feel strongly enough to actually go online or call in and voice their opinion, thus the poll is always representing only those with strong negative or positive opinions. It is unlikely that your new NAD that works as it is supposed to will make you feel strongly enough to search out this board and post a reply saying just that. So I think we are seeing a biased sample of problem reports that have alot of people up in arms and talking about the doomsday of NAD. I think it is highly probable that NAD has had a few more problems with its receivers than most brands, but I certainly do not feel that there is as high a chance of getting a lemon as everyone says. (I hope my story doesn't change when my NAD arrives in a day or so...lol) So lets everyone sit back, take a statistics class, and enjoy the music.
Johnny Silver Member Username: Johnny Missouri Post Number: 308 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 15:27 GMT oknessaD, Another logical and very reasonable argument that hopefully we can all agree with (unlikely though). I think a brush up on the statistics would help all of us in this situation. Bravo!! Please, post back when you get your T752. It will be interesting to hear what your experiences are. Hopefully your logical approach to NAD remains after you get your unit. :-) Good luck!!
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 975 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 15:56 GMT Johnny and oknessaD, I thank you warmly: I see I got through, somehow, to you guys! In return, let me say I agree with all you write. I am far away from US and DMC, but that is a good company to deal with, I can see from your remarks. If you get the same guy on the phone each time, oknessa, than that is half the battle: he is willing to take responsibility, and I guess gets to know you as an individual and a customer. I guess they do not ship internationally. .... Let me also say I have encountered some awful local dealers, who expect to be paid just for having a retail monopoly. I have lots of stories, it would bore folks to death. I'll drop in one since it relates to audio. I put it in on Best cables for amp and pre-pro on April 17, in reply to lorenzo lopez. I took home a sub about a year ago. After 14 days, during which there is a legal "money returned if not satisfied" obligation on all dealers here, I took it back, in perfect condition, in the box, and with the cable the dealer had supplied (he had lost the one in the box and only supplied an alternative when I showed him the packing list). Feeling some obligation, I tried to explain what the problem was with the sub. For my requirements, it had a very fundamental design limitation, it was not a subjective issue. The guy was not listening, and was not interested. He had no concern at all in a customer's satisfaction with the product, nor in learning anything about the product's problems. He knew he was legally obliged to lose a sale, and that is all he cared about. I've been back once, looking at TVs. He recognised me, and refused to speak to me. For every dealer like you, lorenzo, there are many who feel it is their right to pass unopened boxes, whose contents they do not understand or care about, over the counter in return for money, and any problems are between the customer and the manufacturer. And some of these guys have a retail monopoly on certain brands. And they will often try to burn you with cables, offering spurious pseudo-scientific gibberish as the reason why you should shell out. As regards statistics and all that, my personal anecdote is that I have had mixed service from a local NAD dealer, but good feedback and support from NAD, and, eventually, outstanding service from the regional distributor. You just have to plug away and, eventually, get to speak to someone who knows what they are talking about. Finally, johnny, you say "...but I may be a little biased on the subject". We are all biased, all the time. But we can learn to recognise it for what it is, and change our views. Also, "For those who have had major problems (and even some who haven't) with NAD, it is going to be impossible for your argument to take hold...just as it will be impossible for us who have had no problems to join the "NAD sucks" camp." You are right. However, there is a third position, the only one consistent with the evidence on this forum, in my opinion. it is "Don't know". But the forum itself contains a lot of expertise, experience, and insight in to specific problems, and especially with NAD. That is something.
richard kim New member Username: Slimmer Post Number: 7 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 19:53 GMT David at DMC is a great guy. Bought a NAD T752, had a problem, he replaced it and spent almost an hour on the phone with me for set up. Highest recommendation!
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 978 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 20:17 GMT richard, Great to hear. I have no experience of DMC. Unfortunately! There we are - we get personal recommendations of dealers, from people who had a good experience, as customers. The difference, today, is that the whole thing is global, not local. Here I sit in Europe thinking "these guys got good service, wonder if DMC operates here...?" Bet you still can't audition, though....? Home trials were always the mark of a really professional dealer. In these days of TNT, DHS and other courier services, I suppose that is more likely with mail order than having some guy having to come round with the stuff in a van, and be willing to take it away if you don't like it.
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 979 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 20:21 GMT BTW "DMC" in Google gets me only things like the DeLorean Motor Company (I thought they folded after a bribes scandal decades ago, I could be wrong). Does DMC have a web page?
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 980 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 20:28 GMT OK, found it: https://dmc-electronics.com/Default.htm US only, by the look of it. Roll on, globalization....
Sem Bronze Member Username: Sem Post Number: 74 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 20:31 GMT John A. Try here https://dmc-electronics.com/Default.htm
Sem Bronze Member Username: Sem Post Number: 75 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 20:32 GMT Ooops. Posts crossed like two ships in the night...
John A. Silver Member Username: John_a Post Number: 982 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 20:50 GMT Thanks, Sem!
richard kim New member Username: Slimmer Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 17:55 GMT Hello John A., No, I don't think you can audition. But it is dmcelectronics.com in California. Thanks to advice on this board I am a happy owner of a NAD T752(dmc) and Denon DVD2200(ecost.com), now if we could only do something about those bright Bostons... Good Luck
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1004 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 20:20 GMT Richard, Thanks! You, too!
judybell New member Username: Jude04 Post Number: 1 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 22:01 GMT Hi people I purchase a nad stereo system i brought Nad Tuner model 4100, single cd player model 5000, single cassette deck model 6100, stereo pre amp model 1000, stereo power amp model 2100, at the moment i am having trouble with it. the right side of the power amp is not going please help
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1018 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 04:48 GMT Hi Judy. I can think of some questions to try to localize the problem. But it will probably take a number of questions and answers. Therefore, would you be willing to find a more closely-related thread, or start a new one? You will get more attention, and, chances are, more help, under "power amps", if that is what the problem really is. I shall certainly try to respond. The thread we are on, which is under "Home Audio:Receivers", was started by My Rantz, who I think is away right now, and is on a rarely-discussed topic. I think it would be unintentionally rude of us to follow this one, here; it will surely lead the thread away.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1043 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 03:19 GMT judybell: I have sent a "private message" with some suggestions. My intention in the last post was to prevent us running off with the ball; hope you understand.
judybell New member Username: Jude04 Post Number: 2 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 04:34 GMT Hi john thanks for your suggestion how do we go about finding a closely related thread? i reckon i need to start a new one as i am not sure what the problem could be. all i know is this i brought the System in march this year the dealer set it up in my own home it was going real good and the quality of the sounds was amazing. later on i purchased more speakers and proceded to plug these into the back of the amp. it was only then that i discovered that the speakers that were hooked up to the nad was only plug into the left-hand side speaker A up the top and the left-hand speaker B down below i'm not a expert on stereo's but i do know that the speakers were meant to be in the left and right sides (i hope). if i pull out the left side speakers and leave the righthand side one it NO sound. have i just been dubbed or is it my fault? As you said in your suggestions Nad has a very good technical support does it have it in New Zealand and if so where? sorry to bother you Jude
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1047 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 09:43 GMT Jude, As I said in the private message - exchange the Left and Right connections at just one end of the cable connecting the pre-amp and the power amp. If the dead channel, as regards sound, is still the Right, and the speakers are OK, then you know it is really the power amp. Yes, you were correct one speaker left, one speaker right. One big thing, though. And related to other issues.... Get on to that dealer! If you only bought it in March, he should darned well come and fix it for you, and for free. And if he installed it for you with a connection for two left speakers, then EITHER he is totally incompetant, OR ELSE he was trying to disguise a fault in the right channel somewhere; and he will know where. Either way, you should give him a very hard time, and demand some satisfaction. It would be interesting to know which problem he has. The problem is NOT with you. If he won't do that, please post back (yes, here would be good, because of context; I hope My Rantz agrees). The other thing you can do is contact NAD (www.nad.co.uk - there is a queries address) and/or your NZ NAD distributor (from the web site): Audio Products New Zealand Pty Ltd P.O. Box 303-017, North Harbour, Auckland 1330, B6/16 Saturn Place, Albany Contact: Jason Oh Tel: (61) 2 96693477 Fax: (61) 2 95780140 E-mail:joh@audioproducts.com.au I am quite sure NAD will do everything they can to fix your problem, and they will wish to know the name of the dealer. Actually, you could post that here, too. We have many readers in NZ. If they give you any nonsense, by all means refer them here; it is a public forum. All, I ran with the ball. Hope that's OK. Jeez, some dealers....
Adam Bronze Member Username: Docdat CopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 73 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 06:27 GMT JohnA, The player I had trouble with was a DVD-2900, but it's basically a DVD-2200 with a beefed up housing, so your analogy should still be fine ;) Incidentally, it didn't just have problems with a lot of my CDs, I also found that there was a serious problem with the sound in stereo. All the vocals were much louder in the left channel, so it sounded like the lead singer was always standing on the far left of the stage. Pretty weird huh? BTW: I'm curious as to which subwoofer it was you auditioned and returned, and what your problem with it was?
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 266 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 07:34 GMT One thought I have about this QC issue with NAD could be the fact that NAD sales have increased sharply due to its reputation for delivering "audiophile performance at an affordable price" and QC could well be suffering because of increased demand. An example: My wife oversees the running of a clothing design company whose manufacturing is carried out by a few Chinese companies. Quality control has been excellent until recently when the return ratio has been hitting the roof. These companies have taken on so much work from around the world that many items are slipping through the system without being inspected. It seems obvious that they are not hiring enough quality controllers to keep up with the exploding demand. Maybe this is a similar issue with NAD. It would not surprise me to see a similar number of quality issues appearing here with other a/v brands. China's manufacturing is growing at an alarmimg rate and it's all in the name of cost cutting. With India taking over IT and China manufacturing for the world, it makes one ponder the future.
Invierno Bronze Member Username: Invierno Post Number: 45 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 17:16 GMT What I have heard is that NAD (and other companies) didn't expect this much demand given the current economic and employment problems so they are now scrambling to keep up. This could easily cause QC and/or timely delivery problems.
landroval Silver Member Username: Landroval Post Number: 150 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 18:04 GMT Well I would prefer a lot more timely delivery problems than quality problems.
Paul Kay New member Username: Paulkay CopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 4 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 18:52 GMT Just a quick observation. It looks like I may be buying NAD, so I've been reading as many reviews (in Hi-Fi mags and on the net) of them as I can. Not one reviewer has mentioned any QC problems. Just a thought.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1101 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 04:48 GMT Adam, Re May 17, above. Sorry I mixed up your player, in my earlier post. You obviously understand it does not affect the argument. Furthermore, I do not maintain that all Denons should be "tarred with the same brush"..... If we have an NAD problem that needs explaining, and I am still agnostic on this (Paul's is another reason), My Rantz and Invierno make excellent points, in my opinion.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1102 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 05:05 GMT Adam, Sorry I forgot the sub question. This could be another derailment. I'll keep it short. The sub I returned was something called an AudioPro Sub Nova. It had a variable crossover control for the LFE channel (why?) and the speaker-level crossover was fixed at 80 Hz (why?). To me, this is exactly the wrong way round. All AudioPro subs are like that. It is a mystery to me why they do it that way. Also, no auto on/off. Essential, I found out quickly. I didn't care for the sound, either. The sub I bought, and still like, has features I think I understand (adjustable crossover for both connection systems), sounds great, is better made (cable binding posts identical with NAD receiver; not tacky spring clips) and has performed extremely well for a year. It is an "OEM" made-in-China sub called a Gale 3080W.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 277 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 22:28 GMT This is interesting: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/38261.html Re: The T753 - Bien Kims problem according to NAD is not an uncommon problem. If it's not uncommon then why have they taken so long before making a fix for it? Maybe it's a numbers game, however, the goods news is that NAD was responsive rather than going into denial. That's well worth noting for consumers.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 278 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 22:33 GMT EGG ON MY FACE! Re: the above post! Obviously I need glasses - NAD said it was NOT a common problem and if that's TRULY the case then more kudos them for their proactive response to Bien Kim's T753 issue.
Sean R. Roberts Bronze Member Username: Srkstan Kazakhstan Post Number: 53 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:38 GMT Well, I had mentioned here several weeks ago that I was buying the T762 and would report back on its performance. As soon as I hooked it up, I had problems--I could not get the machine to recognize either the remote or the front buttons (much like Bien Kim's problem--but no pop--and not going blank while operating--just being stuck in standby). I unplugged the receiver and plugged it back in several times. A couple of times, I even got the red "protector" indicator. But, after letting it rest for an hour and plugging it back in, it has worked without problems for three days. The sound is fantastic! But, my happiness is cautious, because I hope it does not go on the blink again. I will keep people posted. There is no question that when this receiver works, it is awesome--the question is whether it works reliably. I have one other problem, however, that I did want to ask people about. I use the 7.1 external input to plug my computer's sound card into the receiver, and I am having problems with the center/subwoofer channel. Either the center or subwoofer works, but never both--has anybody encountered this before? I use a mini to dual RCA cable to go from my soundcard to the receiver, and the other channels work fine with this setup. Anyways, as with most posters here, my judgement of NAD is still out--it seems like I will either love it or hate it--I guess there is nothing in between with this company.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 283 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:59 GMT Sean, Glad to see you've got it mostly sorted out. It seems to me that when using the 7.1 external input, only those channels connected (which, from what you say seems like 2 - dual RCA's) should be working and all others silent. Hopefully someone with more NAD knowledge may jump in here and help. Good Luck!
Hawk Silver Member Username: Hawk Highlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 576 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 04:25 GMT Sean: I an glad to hear your T762 is now working! I am a bit confused on your connection of your computer to the 7.1 analog input, however. You indicate that your patch cable is a mini-plug to dual RCAs. That is only two channels. Mini-plugs are either mono or stereo (two channels) out and the dual RCAs would also be only two channels in. So which two inputs are you using of the 8 inputs available?
Sean R. Roberts Bronze Member Username: Srkstan Kazakhstan Post Number: 55 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 05:28 GMT Hawk, My soundcard is a Creative Audigy 2ZS, which has three channels out that are supposed to hook into front speakers (via one mini to dual RCA), rear speakers (with another similar mini to dual RCA) and center/subwoofer (with a third cable). I still haven't hooked up a 6th speaker (back), and I do not know if that will be covered by the surround inputs on the NAD--probably not since they have separate inputs for the back speaker (maybe I get a RCA splitter to make one of the mini to dual RCA cables a mini to tri-RCA?). The set up generally works very well since the software that comes with the sound card has a processor that creates a nice mix for 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1. This sounds better than using the coax in on the NAD, which only seems to create a three way surround using the front speakers and the center. By the way, I have another question concerning the 6.1 hook-up for the NAD. Can I plug two speakers into the back if they are both 8 ohm? This would theoretically create a 4 ohm load and simulated 7.1 sound from the 6.1 receiver. PS--I am still being cautious about saying this receiver is fully operational since I had problems initially--but maybe it just needed to warm up after travelling from California to Virginia to Kazakhstan. It does sound beautiful and really brings the shine out of my B&W speakers!!
Hawk Silver Member Username: Hawk Highlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 589 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 06:25 GMT Sean: OK, I think I see the problem--I am not familiar with the Audigy card, but are you sure it has a dedicated subwoofer channel? Also, it appears that the one patch cord for the center/sub is not working properly--this may be the cable or the card itself. Have you tried swapping out the cables to see if that works? If not, it is probably the audio output jack on the card (a common problem!). As for your idea to create a 7.1 system, you might be able to wire a second rear center speaker, but that will not give you 7.1 sound. 7.1 sound has the extra speakers on the side, which are created by mixing the signals of the LF and LR for the left speaker and the RF and RR for the right speaker. This is supposed to then give you true surround sound. However, in a 6.1 set-up, the center rear speaker is created by mixing the two rear speakers sound together without any signal from the front speakers. Simply adding a second center rear speaker is only going to give you more rear info, so you will have three speakers in the front and four speakers in the back. The sound would thus be unbalanced toward the rear--so the concept is simply flawed, I'm afraid.
landroval Silver Member Username: Landroval Post Number: 172 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 07:35 GMT The Audigys have a dedicated subwoofer channel. Actually they have a 7.1-line-out similar to DVD-players wich have decoders, only it's made with 2- and 3-channel miniplug outs. My Audigy2 non-ZS (=6.1) has three miniplug outs. One stereo for the left and rigth, one stereo for the surrounds and one 3-channel (4-pole) miniplug for the sub, center and rear center. The ZS has similar setup, but it has one 2-channel and two 3-channel miniplugs to cover the 7.1 channels. Check from the help/manual wich line come out of wich plug. Hawk, what are you talking about 7.1 having new side surrounds? that's not the case, the 7.1 is only adding two rear center speakers between the normal surrounds, just the same way as the rear center in 6.1 setup.
Sean R. Roberts Bronze Member Username: Srkstan Kazakhstan Post Number: 57 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 09:52 GMT Landroval, Does that mean I should get two RCA splitters and turn two of my mini to dual RCA cables into mini to tri RCA cables? Should that even work?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1162 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:17 GMT This is a bit like Judybell, May 12 above. I keep hoping My Rantz's question can be answered, there are some big issues involved, and there has been some investment in trying to get this sorted out. Sean has dropped his soundcard question in a number of different places, including Home Audio > MP3 & Digital Audio Servers > Creative Audigy 2 ZS soundcard to NAD T762 receiver?? Sean, As you know, you've left a bunch of people, who are trying to help you, scratching their heads and wondering why you are completely stuck and unhappy with a T762 that won't start: Help!!!!!!! NAD nightmare!!!. There were some good ideas given you there, I thought, and some questions asked to which you have not yet replied. So you've solved it? I am sure the guys there, of whom I am one, would be interested to know.
Sean R. Roberts Bronze Member Username: Srkstan Kazakhstan Post Number: 58 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:33 GMT John, Sorry to get people off thread... one just keeps wanting to follow up when somebody has answered something since it can be difficult to get people's attention (understandably so). I will go to the other thread and try to answer people since many people have been kind enough to answer my questions. Here, I will just say that I have resolved my NAD T762 problem for the time being. I do not know how--it just started working fine after the first several hours of plugging in and out, turning on and off. Given the mystery of it, I am hesitant to say I have solved the problem--I can just say it is working now. I will also say that the people at DCM electronics were kind enough to test the unit for me before sending it, and they were miffed when I said that it wouldn't start, but alas it seems to be working now...(I say crossing my fingers)
Steve Taylor Bronze Member Username: Stevetaylor Boston, MA USA Post Number: 14 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 13:10 GMT For what it's worth...I'm lucky (I guess lucky if I'm unlucky and have NAD problems) to live 20 minutes from the US NAD service center. I brought my T763 in a few weeks ago to fix a DSP problem and picked it up yesterday. I asked the technician if he thought NAD had more than what he would term normal problems as seen in other brands (they service other brands, I saw Pioneer and others there) and he said no. It didn't appear that he was being disingenuous. I got the same reading from the dealer I purchased the NAD from who would have loved to steer me to their Pioneer line if they thought NAD was a problem. They sold quite a few NAD's and I was the only one bringing one back. So while I think the jury is still out I hope to enjoy the NAD for years to come.
landroval Silver Member Username: Landroval Post Number: 173 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 18:40 GMT "Does that mean I should get two RCA splitters and turn two of my mini to dual RCA cables into mini to tri RCA cables? Should that even work?" Nope. You'll need two cables with 4-pole miniplug at one end and 3xRCA at the other. These are used for some video cameras to transmit L&R audio and composite video. In addition to those you'll need one 3-pole (=stereo) miniplug to 2xRCA cable. With RCA-splitters you'll only duplicate two of the channels, and that's not what you want to do. John A, wich My Rantz's question are you talking about?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1165 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 20:16 GMT landroval, Any, and all, on April 27, above. Good questions. No answers, yet, as far as I can see.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1182 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 18:11 GMT Sean, Thanks. I do not mean to criticize; just to try to keep this thread on-track. I am leaving threads hanging, too. I do what you have done, all the time, with computers. People say "Great, John; thanks. What did you do?" I say "I don't know" and it is the simple truth.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1250 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 13:02 GMT I talked about this thread with my wife. She frequents a forum where the question came up: "I have four children, all boys. Is it the case that the larger your family, the more likely it is that you will have all children of one sex?" The posts came in. 75 % of the replies from women with four or more children said "Yes, we have all boys" or "yes, we have all girls". For four children, random samples of 4-children families will give one in sixteen with all boys; one in sixteen with all girls; therefore one in eight with all of one sex or the other. For five children, it goes up to one in 32 for B/G (one in 16 for both); for six, to one in 64 for B/G (one in 32 for both). If you doubt these probablities, toss that many coins and see how many times out of a hundred they come up all heads, or all tails.
Adam Bronze Member Username: Docdat CopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 81 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 13:25 GMT John, Thanks, that's a great example of the bias occuring in discussion forums. People don't usually seek out specialized forums, unless they have problems or unusual experiences and questions. So it's a grave mistake to think the posts and experiences on a board like this, is in any way representative of the general population of owners of any brand equipment.
oknessaD Bronze Member Username: Oknessad Post Number: 39 Registered: May-04	Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 15:50 GMT Yes John! Perfect example of a loaded question. Those that have the anomalie happen to them (ie all boys or girls or broken NAD) are very much more likely to respond. Like Adam was saying, people seek out these types of forums when something is awry. I found this forum when searching for information on the NAD T752 after hearing and falling in love with it. I still don't think I can completely discount NADs issues due to the fact that I received a T752 with the digital input section dead, sent it back, and now received a perfectly working one. Its just one persons experience but when this many people report on it... its not ignorable. Keep in mind I am still part of the random sample because I came and was posting before I got my NAD so I am not part of the "they come and post after there is a problem" camp. Anyways, thats just me and I still fully enjoy my NAD. Jace
Paul Reynolds Bronze Member Username: Hab Post Number: 31 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 00:51 GMT Loaded question indeed, I agree.....but the NAD postings here are not in reply to a particular question. Fact 1) People seek out these types of forums when something is awry (Direct quote from oknessaD) Fact 2) A large percentage of the postings here are about NAD problems (NAD owners had problems & found this forum for advice/help) Conclusion: NAD has a lot of problems (probably very close percentage-wise to the postings on them here in relation to other brands) SIMPLE!!! On a personal note, I bought a 753 a few months back & have since gone through 6 units that all had problems in my home & at the dealer. NAD problems are not caused by bad connections, cheap cables, poor speaker wire, house current, etc etc etc....they are NAD PROBLEMS!!! Just a few days ago the dealer called me to tell me that NAD Canada has finally admiited to him that they do actually have a problem. They continually denied this over the first 2 months, but said that they have been able to recreate the problem that both I & the dealer were having & are now looking for a fix. NAD sound is top notch I will admit, but they need to come clean on this hiss/humm issue.
Adam Bronze Member Username: Docdat CopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 84 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 01:39 GMT Paul, I'd say your conclusion is flawed. You fail to take into account the clustering effect. First of all, a large portion of the regular writers here are NAD owners. This means that when you do a google search on NAD, you'll have a larger chance of winding up on this forum. Secondly, this also means that as more and more people with a NAD problem search for a solution and find their way here, you get more and more hits on google and thus even more people come here. And on it goes... As for your T753 experience, I can only say that either your dealer is incompetent or you have been astronomically unlucky. The hum issue with the first batches of T753 is well known, and NAD has been open about it. It has been fixed for quite a while on all units coming from the factory. It should also be a well known issue to all dealers, and the fix is even very simple: A single capacitor is put in the power wiring to the DSP. That your dealer doesn't know about this or won't do it, is not NAD's fault. The T753 does not have a special problem with hiss. Most surround receivers have a small amount of hiss that is only detectable if you come very close to the speakers. Most receivers of different brands that I've tested has this, and in my opinion it can not be called a problem or malfunction, since it doesn't affect the normal use of the unit. I don't know any people who listen to music or watch movies with their head against the speakers. Do you? I have gone to several different shops and tested various T7x3 receivers without being able to detect any hiss, unless I put my ear to the speakers. So if you're hearing hiss at a normal listening distance from the speakers, you probably have a problem with your setup. Noone else seems to have this problem anyway. I'm not trying to belittle your problems, and I know how aggravating stuff like that can be. I'm just saying that you have to be careful drawing any general conclusions from your own experiences.
Paul Reynolds Bronze Member Username: Hab Post Number: 32 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 02:35 GMT Careful drawing conclusions from your own experiences? What would be more important to you when drawing conclusions than experience. If you put your hand on a hot stove & it burns you don't put your hand there again. In my case not only did I burn my hand, but the people who made the stove couldn't turn the burner off. Flawed conclusion? Clustering effect? Google? A search engine has nothing to do with NAD problems believe it or not. Wow! You say people make their way here only when they have problems but when NAD owners come here you stop using that reasoning. Don't you think that maybe the fact that there are many NAD owners coming to this site may have some thing to do with THEM having problems? There are huge numbers of owners of mass market brands out there, as well as many owners of high end brands, putting the percentage of NAD's to all others at a very low ratio....less than 1% of all brands combined I would guess. Yet in here the NAD problems DOMINATE the board. Dosen't that tell you something? My dealer has been more than reasonable, getting in unit after unit & testing them in his shop. Finding that all had that same humm problem (not a hiss when your ear touches the speaker...a loud humm that can be heard 40 feet away) he not only refunded my money but apologized over & over for my inconvenience. He has spoken to NAD Canada weekly for months & they continued to deny any problems with these units until just last week. So who has quality control problems here...Denon?, Sony?, my dealer?, Me? Or wait just a minute, maybe it is NAD.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1257 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 08:39 GMT Paul, My last post (May 29) was intended as a follow-up to my posts of May 01 and May 11, above. As regards what happens when you have a problem, my own experience, for what it's worth, is that NAD customer service is exemplary. I have also concluded, in the way you describe getting burned by a hot plate (twice), that a Sony Center is a place where you pay money to people in return for your trying, unsuccessfully, to explain to them how things work and what needs fixing. They reluctantly take the unit off you for some months, then present you with a bill for their time, equal to the original cost of the item, and do nothing, or else fool around and make the problem worse. And this is with high-quality stuff (in my case Walkman Pro audio tape recorder and ECM stereo microphone) where planned obsolescence was not evident, and no subsequent design has improved anything. Part of my decision to dump Sony is just outright hostility and a feeling of having been taken for a ride. This is my subjective position: it is my money, and yours is yours. We choose what to buy for all sorts of reasons, some entirely personal. Just as a brand, I will choose NAD over Sony any time. You may feel exactly the opposite; you have every right to do so. Then the general question comes: does Sony/NAD have special problems, as a brand? "No idea" seems the only possible answer, at least on the evidence we have here.
Adam Bronze Member Username: Docdat CopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 85 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 10:26 GMT Paul, You seem to be willfully misreading my post. I said general conclusions. We're talking statistics here. A single user's experience of problems with brand X, does not in any way mean that brand X has a general problem with QC. So yes it is a flawed conclusion. It's a simple matter of the sample size being too small to make any meaningful conclusions. As for the clustering effect, I don't think it's that hard to understand, but I'll try explaining again: When you have a problem with something, and seek help on the internet, most people do a search on a search engine like Google, to find answers. You don't just say "yes, I think I'll try Ecoustics", as most folks are not even aware of it's existence. So when you search for the keywords "NAD", you are directed here because Ecoustics have larger group of NAD owners than any other hifi-forum I know of, and thus the keyword "NAD" is repeated in many threads posted here. Follow me so far? Then the people with a NAD problem who were led here by their search, post a question, and voila, yet another round of "NAD" and "problems" keywords are added to the site. On and on it goes, each time adding to the hits google gets from Ecoustics. Want proof? Try doing a search now on google with the keywords "NAD problems". Ecoustics is right at the top of the results. As for the ratio of NAD owners to other brands, again I repeat: this forum has a much higher percentage of NAD owners than any other board I know of. So you didn't have a hiss problem, but the hum issue, which is widely known and easily fixed? I quote from my previous post: "The hum issue with the first batches of T753 is well known, and NAD has been open about it. It has been fixed for quite a while on all units coming from the factory. It should also be a well known issue to all dealers, and the fix is even very simple: A single capacitor is put in the power wiring to the DSP. That your dealer doesn't know about this or won't do it, is not NAD's fault." So your dealer should have just gotten the fix done or waited for a new one with it, instead of giving you several units from the same old batch. I'm currently waiting for a replacement Denon DVD-2900. Apparently there is a problem with the series and Denon is fixing it now on all new units. Is this aggravating for me? Yes! Does it mean I believe Denon has a general problem with QC? No!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1260 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 11:17 GMT Adam, Excellent. I've just done a survey of posts here from Copenhagen, and it is obvious that "Adam" is by far the most common single first name in that city. I found that surprising, expecting "Lars", "Nils", "Jens" or similar, but that was just my prejudice, I guess. There is also more sense written from Copenhagen than from most other places. In my opinion.
oknessaD Bronze Member Username: Oknessad Post Number: 44 Registered: May-04	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 15:46 GMT To back up a wonderful job done by Adam on the relevance of the cluster effect here is an example. I decided to try another brand (I chose Rotel because no problems have been reported on this forum that I am aware of). I searched on google and came up with these results http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=580758&Main=5 80578 http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?s=03a22cf3eefc633ae30e5e9fbc66a02e& p=99905#post99905 Two posts on two forums about a hum issue with a rotel. Now, this is only two isolated examples but then this is the post that made me believe Adam was entirely correct. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=7880&highlight=denon+problem This person is now potentially scared to buy this unit for fear of a hum problem. No one on here is afraid to buy rotel because of hum but many are hesitant about NAD. I understand that this is not as widespread an issue as some of the NAD problems have been but it is definately worth noting that the effect Adam talked about is real. When you have a problem, you wind up where other problems have been reported and thus they become concentrated and people (like the one thinking of not buying a rotel) tend to draw inaccurate conclusions about how many faulty units there are. It all comes down to do your homework, if you think NAD has problems no one is forcing you to buy it. Enjoy the music.
oknessaD Bronze Member Username: Oknessad Post Number: 45 Registered: May-04	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 15:51 GMT one other post that demonstrates this... http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=7955 How come our forum doesn't have such a glaring problem with Rotel? because noone posts about it so people don't gather here to talk about it. The defense rests.
george_k Unregistered guest	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 16:05 GMT All companies have their share of problems. I owned a Yamaha HTR series receiver a few years back, my problem with that receiver was that the inputs bled and interfered with each other, I believe the entire lineup suffered from this problem, I was even told that this is "normal". I'd like to know just how these companies perform their quality inspections works.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1262 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 18:02 GMT Adam and oknessaD, Excellent. Thank you for being expert witnesses. The cluster effect seems to be sufficient to explain the results. I suggest there is little more to be said. My Rantz, It's your thread. Please consider the verdict "Case dismissed".
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 325 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 02:06 GMT The case for dismissal will be held under consideration. There have been no "expert witnesses" however, we have seen excellent testimonies from several 'intelligent' witnesses both on the 'defence' and 'prosecution' teams who have drawn from many tales and experiences. But, I can only submit that such testimonies are hearsay. Everything stated thus far is someone's opinion or best guess. What is for certain is the fact that all brands have their share of problems. For example, I did a search in Google for "A/V Receivers hiss and hum problems" and while NAD issues appeared, the first page was mostly about Harmon Kardon. Rotel and Sony were others. So I for one, remain unconvinced by either parties. NAD has enjoyed a long reputation built on quality, customer service and for delivering real power and great sound at a reasonable price. However, there have been several companies that have had a change of ownership (such as NAD), or have merged with another and what we don't know is whether or not original priorities with many factors change also when these events occur. With the lack of concrete proof, if final arguments were to be held now, even the most persuasive jurist would not be able to convince the panel to vote in his/her favour. We will take into account further testimony, but without real evidence of malpractice, there may be no alternative than to announce a dismissal and send all the transcripts to the archives. "Bang" (gavel) This court is adjourned!
Billy Balou New member Username: Billybalou Post Number: 6 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 02:43 GMT Well.... I've been reading in this forum and avsforum for the past month and it's amazing how so many "hate" NAD or love NAD. I'm currently upgrading a system that has averaged 3 - 12 hours a day for the past 30 years. Technics sa-5350 with BIC Venturi speakers. My wife and kids have ragged on me to upgrade for the past 15 years. I say why? This system has worked flawlessly. College days the system kicked butt with clarity and loudness and as I've matured it has kept me happy as my dollar return on my investment would make most people cry. Now... my new 5.1 system... Will be running 4 ohm gms europas (front & surronds), gma Continuum (Center) with a hsu vtf-2 sub. Receiver was between Marantz, Denon and NAD with me loving the video features of the Denon but not trusting the fact that the denon 3805 will handle 4 ohms all the way around in my system. NAD references the ability to handle 4 ohm which makes me happy as I don't want to fry the amp or screw up the speakers. There are no NAD dealers in my area and I'll have to order via mail from autherized dealer. I did inquire about the negative forums regarding NAD and their response was that NAD is a quality product with no more returns/problems than the other brands they're authorized to sell (Denon, Marantz, NAD, Adcom, Pioneer and Sunfire). This dealer is an authorized dealer and carries some of the major players in A/V receivers. I would wonder why he hasn't told me "Don't buy NAD as it will give you grief until your gut is wrenching from your wife yelling Why did you buy NAD.) It is interesting that nobody ever talks about the possibility of having dirty line conditions with their power in their home. Line conditioning, ground loops, power surges and/or brown-outs (big problem here in CA). Can this be some of the problems that people have and don't know how to identify? Maybe...Maybe not. NAD is where I'm going at this point even with the negative views in these forums as I don't think that they're indicitive to the product. Do all NAD owners go on line? I doubt they do as they're satisfied with their purchase. If they do comment that they don't have any problems then it seems people love to bash them for conveying that thought. I appreciate all the input from all the readers and many of you are way above my knowledge in electronics. I am just trying to find a quality receiver that will handle my speaker requirements, provide quality sound and have some video functions to pacify my family in the home theatre aspect. If any one here has any thoughts and/or suggestions that make sense not to buy a NAD 763 or 773 to drive 4 ohm speakers, please interject as I'll be purchasing within the next week. Thanks for listening....
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 326 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 03:32 GMT Billy, The dirty line, ground loop and power issues have been discussed in other threads. I'm no expert in electronics either, but for the money, I would not go past NAD for 4 ohm speakers. The whole NAD problem issue in relation to the number of posts in this forum is certainly debatable, but no matter what brand, buy from an authorised dealer and try to get the promise of examplary after sales service. NAD, by most accounts, will provide great service also. If you search through some NAD related posts you will find recommended dealers like Kiefs for example.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1264 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 08:15 GMT Billy, After My Rantz' masterly summing up and verdict, I was just leaving the court, and noticed your post. Going back to Mark and odessaD's "cluster effect"; I suspect the background you describe for yourself makes NAD something you should look into. Quality sound uncompromised by pointless gadgets and features; promised unchanging audiophile priorities. All at a price even a family man can afford. I do not wish to patronize. But you also seem to be exactly the sort of man who will seek advice and wish to share views and opinions, for good or ill. And my writing this is part of the clustering, too I am sure. My Rantz quote: "Everything stated thus far is someone's opinion or best guess." My main point to you is that the big news for people who like high-quality sound reproduction is DVD-Audio (some will say "and SACD" and they have a good case). DVD-Audio is still "hidden" in marketing terms as a sort of extra feature of DVD-video players. When your write "provide quality sound and have some video functions to pacify my family in the home theatre aspect" I know exactly what you mean and was there myself about a year ago. Some threads I started to try to spread the news have now been moved to the general category here Home Audio > DVD-Audio & SACD. Also please take a brief look under other categories at: Twilight of the Compact Disc DVD-Audio NAD T533 DVD/CD player user's review, and DVD-Audio
MarcUR Unregistered guest	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 14:05 GMT "NAD, by most accounts, will provide great service also" I find it funny how everyone says NADs post sale service is great. I had problems with 3 743's and 1 753. They tried to blame it on my Sony TV and said it caused intereference with teh receiver, but when i tried 2 other brands of television, the problem persisted. NAD support gave me little to no help and just told me to go back to my dealer and seemed disinterested. The technicians I talked to on the phone were rather arrogant and denied that they had any problems with the 743. I eventually tried out a Denon 2803, Marantz 6400, and an Arcam AVR200. They all worked flawlessly. I ended up with the Arcam (its definitely not the same as a NAD, regardless of what people say; it sounds different and actually works without problems). My feeling is I would stay away from NAD unless you've dealt with your dealer in the past and know you'll be helped if there is a problem. If you are using a dealer for the first time, be very very careful.
JW Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 03:54 GMT MUR, This post dovetails your report/my comments on another thread. Had to note with interest your dissatisfaction with NAD service and the prudent suggestion to only deal with a familiar and supportive dealer to resolve the many NAD issues you have encountered - in light of a deaf ear from NAD directly. Some on this thread would lead us to believe that problems with (3) T743's and (1) T753 can be attributed to: 1)Selected Sampling - your problems are singular and one of just an acceptable proportionate base of random NAD sampling brought to light. 2)Cluster effect - This is a "NADcentric" board where a majority NAD specific malfuctions are reported. 3)Statistically, well, the 4 problematic NAD units as reported do not support, necessarily, nor exceed what any individual consumer should expect to encounter from any other A/V manufacturer. I, obviously, regret your experience with NAD and am pleased to hear that the Denon, Marantz and Arcam all performed flawlessly. On a personal note, take a moment when you can find time to report on the Arcam AVR200 - sound, features, etc. - reason being I am considering an upgrade from my NAD and would apprecaite your impressions. Thanks.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 331 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 04:52 GMT MarcUR "NAD, by most accounts, will provide great service also" Please note the use of the word "most." That does not mean all. However, there have been several posts among many threads relating to NAD issues where the customer reports excellent service from NAD. I agree that there are some posts stating that others have not. And I'm sure that many will agree that you had an unacceptable experience. JW - Multiple faulty replacements are certainly unacceptable. If it happened to me I would be screaming from the roof tops. Releasing a range of components resulting in many reported problems, while not excusable, can be understandable. This happens with various manufacturers, but usually the next model released has had those problems rectified. It seems apparent that many in the '3' series of NAD components suffer similar problems to those of last years '2' series. This point and the multiple replacements reported tend to strengthen the prosecution's arguement. But, the issues do not seem to be inherent. The fact that many customers report stable problem-free units should mean the design is not flawed and that quality control still remains suspect if we assume that the NAD issues related on forum reports are representative of an abnormal amount defective components. Yet, such evidence to prove that assumption correct remains elusive.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 05:01 GMT Members of the jury, if it does not quit, you must acquit.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1277 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 05:06 GMT Just an anecdote on service. My local NAD dealer has bunch of guys, some helpful, some definitely not. None of them knows much compared with the assembled expertise on this forum. I e-mailed NAD, got some good suggestions, and was then finally directed to the regional distributor. They own the retail chain, and kept trying to direct me back to the dealers. When I finally got through directly to their technical Dept. they were fantastic. I get impression this likely to be what you will find in Scandinavia and Canada, for some reason (NAD's present and former parent companies are there). In contrast, I have never got anything but "the problem is with you" from Sony, and I have more SOny stuff than NAD stuff. No statistics here, either, just my anecdote. Whether you get any joy from SOny will probably be region-dependent, too. But I think it is a waste of time contacting their central office.
JW Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 05:29 GMT No. Not at all. The Wisdom of Solomon does not apply; you cannot - they did not - divide the baby in two. Blame it on NAD QC.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 332 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 05:30 GMT John A Two weeks ago, I sent an email to the Denon distributor for Australia telling them I was a prospective DVD-2900 buyer and also asking for some information. As yet nothing! It makes one wonder about their customer service. J. Vigne LOL - Sandy Stern you ain't!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1279 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 05:49 GMT Mmy last post was out of synch, replying to things way back, by the time it reached the forum. Movie recommendation: 12 Angry Men. 1957. Henry Fonda. Brilliant. And relevant.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 237 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 10:37 GMT Jan, Just 5 minutes worm.....your honor!
Sem Silver Member Username: Sem Post Number: 111 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 13:13 GMT Rick, ...NAD and me...alone.
Adam Bronze Member Username: Docdat CopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 87 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 00:18 GMT John, I had a very positive experience with, I think, the same people. I sent an email ½ a year ago to NAD, asking some questions on the bass management in my T760. I got a mail back asking me to call a specific number. They guy I talked with was incredibly knowledgeable and friendly. It was even difficult to end the conversation, because he was so eager to help me. Later I found out it was the same guy who came up with the fix for the T7x3 hum issue. Ole was the name, I think.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1285 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 06:03 GMT Adam, Ole Sorensen. Totally brilliant guy, knows the brand and the whole industry inside out, technically and from consumer point of view. He helped me locate my problem and walked me through the components on my DTS-AC-3 board, and was completely open about known issues and what to do about them. Even phoned me, both at home (I could demonstrate the problem over the phone) and work. His views on claimed power ratings of other brands were priceless and amusing. I do believe that distributor handles only what they judge to be quality brands, and still acknowledges that some others, which others handle, can be just as good. Also they care about non-current models. I was knocked out by that level of concern - I thought it had gone years ago.
Ojophile New member Username: Ojophile Ontario Canada Post Number: 2 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 10:29 GMT Hello, folks. I've been reading the threads on NAD's in the last few days. I've been contemplating buying a NAD-PSB speaker combination at one of only two authorized NAD dealers here in Toronto. I would like to thank all of you for sharing your experiences and expressing your opinions on the NAD's that you have acquired, whether happily or regretfully. I'm planning to audition a NAD T763 with PSB Image 4T or 5T (depending on their price and my budget). I listen to a lot of acoustic jazz, classical music, and classic rock; therefore, detail is very important to me. But, quality is even more so, and the threads I've read here have reinforced the "caveat emptor" mentality in me. I wish you all well.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1425 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 13:07 GMT Ojophile, You, too. I can name several regular contributors to this forum who really know their stuff and recommend the combination NAD/PSB, for just the reasons you describe. On just this thread, I think Johnny and Sem, maybe others, may be able to comment.
Johnny Silver Member Username: Johnny Missouri Post Number: 351 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 13:39 GMT Ojophile, I do indeed own an NAD T762 paired with some PSB speakers. Right now, I only have PSB in the front and center (2B for mains, 9C for center). I don't think that I can add much more than you already have stated. You seem to have done your homework on all of this. In my opinion, PSB speakers really bring out the detail and clarity of the NAD receivers. I was just listening to some music last night (AC/DC) and thinking to myself..."man, this really sounds good". With NAD's "music first" philosophy, I don't think you will be disappointed. I will however draw your attention to one fact. I don't know if you are aware or not, but the PSB Image series has recently been updated. I don't even know if they are on sale yet. I haven't seen them anywhere, but then again, I haven't really been looking either. Check out the website for more information. Overall, I think that the changes have been mostly cosmetic...I think the "innards" of the speaker are largely unchanged. I think they have added some new wood finishes and have gone to a silver grill on some of the models. The model numbers have changed too...they are very similar, but just a bit different. I think the equivalent of the 4T and 5T is the "T45" and "T55" (they just switched the number and letter and added a 5 to the end). This means one of two things for you. 1. You can have more options with this updated line. 2. With the new line coming out, the prices on the "older" models might go down some. I have obviously spent a lot of time listening to this combo and researching the models, so if you have any more questions, do not hesitate to ask!
Ojophile New member Username: Ojophile Ontario Canada Post Number: 3 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 02:25 GMT John A. / Johnny: Thanks for the quick response. I guess it's true that there's "safety in numbers" insofar as knowing that there's a large, intelligent group of NAD owners out there. Yes, I saw the new PSB's two weeks ago on the company's website. The Toronto dealer told me that the maple finish costs extra. Since I'm not so much into aesthetics as I am into acoustics, I'd settle for the black ash and spend the savings on more CD's or DVD's. There's an interesting point raised by Christopher Zell, Ph.D, on his September 2003 of the T762 on AudioRevolution.com. Dr. Zell wrote that when you select "Large" for your main Left/Right speakers and "YES" for the subwoofer, the bass information from any loudspeaker set to "Small" would be sent to both L/R speakers and subwoofer. This results in the bass being doubled. Has anyone experienced this? http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/nadreceiver/ (third paragraph, third sentence to the last, under the sub-heading, "Set-up" ) I underscored this point because I consider the PSB Image 5T series as "Large." I don't think this would be an issue when listening to 2-channel stereo, but when it comes to watching movies, I wonder if the "doubled bass" effect could prove to be too much. Meanwhile, if work doesn't interfere with my plans, I'll be heading down this week to the Great Metropolitan Sound store to audition the NAD-PSB combi. All you good people, enjoy the summer wherever you are or wherever you plan to be.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1436 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 03:54 GMT Ojophile, You are most welcome. That is a good point about doubling the bass redirected from small surrounds or from the center. Try that question with the dealer, and see if the effect shows up in demonstration.
Johnny Silver Member Username: Johnny Missouri Post Number: 354 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 13:56 GMT Ojophile, I remember reading in the manual of the 762 (I think the 763 is similar) that the bass situation you describe does indeed happen. I have the PSB Image 2B's which are bookshelf speakers, albeit large ones (they do have decent bass on their own), so I can't share any personal experiences in this regard. If you do choose to get the 5T, you can always just set them to "small" and have all of the bass sent to the sub only, thus leaving the 5T to focus on the midrange and high sounds. If you don't like that idea, the T763 does allow for changing channel levels "on the fly" via the remote, so if there is a movie or movie passage in which this "double bass" becomes too much, you can always turn down the sub. Like I said, I have no personal experience with this, but it seems that if you have your sub placed right and you do some fiddling with channel levels and crossover points, it should blend seamlessly with your front speakers. It shouldn't be like you are hearing bass from two different places...rather just like you are hearing it from a larger area and stronger. Does that make sense?
Ojophile New member Username: Ojophile Toronto, ON Post Number: 6 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 01:24 GMT Good stuff, Johnny. I auditioned the Paradigm Esprit, CC-170, PDR-10, and a pair of Micros hooked to a Marantz yesterday at an authorized dealer on my way home. Excellent detail given the test CD that I had with me: "How High The Moon" (Dianne Schuur); "Humpty Dumpty" (Chick Corea with that great piano solo); "Hotel California - live" (Eagles); "Israel" (Bill Evans); "Highway Star - remastered" (Deep Purple), etc., etc. Interestingly enough, the price difference between the Paradigms and the PSB Image series wasn't that much to break the bank. I'll audition the PSB's tomorrow with the NAD, possibly the T753 and T762. I'll see (or hear) if a few more dollars will buy me better sonics. Thanks for all your comments and observations. John A., apart from the music, I'll ask the dealer about the known issues with the NAD's and the "doubled bass" effect. Thanks for the input. Cheers!
Ojophile New member Username: Ojophile Toronto, ON Post Number: 7 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 01:53 GMT Members of this forum, on a slightly different yet related topic, is there really an audible difference when you use brand name speaker cables (Monster cable, UltraLink, etc.)? In other words, would the extra dollars spent on these cables actually make your PSB's sing with more clarity and much better imaging, etc.? What do you folks use on your A/V setup?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1462 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 08:06 GMT Ojophile, Re cables and interconnects, there is some good stuff on Speaker War!. Just because I have the photo, here is the back of my NAD T760. I have everything from: out-of-the-box; the local equivalent of "Radio Shack"; to Monster; and beyond. I really do find it makes no difference at all when I move them around.
Ojophile New member Username: Ojophile Toronto, ON Post Number: 8 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 14:13 GMT John A., Thanks for the link. Man, my morning coffee (great Canadian Tim Horton's brew) never tasted any better than today while reading the threads on Speaker Wars. I especially enjoyed the Audioquest thread posted by Joe (Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 05:06 pm) and the rejoinders that followed. I brought up the speaker cable topic because as my initial posting hinted, I'm currently in the market for a real audio and HT system. "Real", meaning a decent replacement for my 10-year old, faithful but outdated bookshelf system. I've been to Best Buy and have seen the Monster Cable spools including the pre-terminated ones. I've also seen UltraLink in another store costing half the MC's price. I haven't seen the AudioQuest; I assume only the high-end, specialty "hi-fi" stores carry them. Although the "10-15% of the cost of the hardware on interconnects" rule suggested by Dave Kersten is valid, I would be more inclined to spend on "well made inexpensive cabling" as Kegger had suggested. IMHO, all these speaker cable debates all boil down to how your ears perceive the recorded music and the details that go with it. And listening is a subjective exercise, isn't it? As it's been said of expensive speaker cables, "if you can't hear the difference, don't buy it." John, I respect your opinion and that of Kegger, Joe, Markus, Johnny and the other "posters (?)" in this forum. So far, it's been very interesting and something to look forward to. Well, have a nice day, folks. I better get back to work. Cheers!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1467 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 03:50 GMT Ojophile, "a decent replacement for my 10-year old, faithful but outdated bookshelf system" "outdated?" 10 years is nothing. If I may, I recommend you take a good look at that system, see how much it would cost to obtain one as good today. Consider whether can be used in a 5.1 system. Especially the speakers. Three more plus a 5.1 receiver/amp could be a good place to start.
Ojophile New member Username: Ojophile Toronto, ON Post Number: 10 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 04:40 GMT John A. Don't laugh now, but my "Old Faithful" bookshelf unit is a Mitsubishi. A what? You heard right, a Mitz. Now, don't they make cars and electric fans? I bought the unit 10++ years ago because it was the only model that didn't have that dreaded DSP that most units touted. It has real bass and treble controls. And average speakers. I don't want to use the speakers as supplements to my future HT system. So, I will donate that to Goodwill (charity) here and help a budding radio technician in the process. My wife and I are doing some home renovation, and this is the perfect time to do in-wall wiring. That's another reason why I brought up the topic on speaker cables. I bought a pair of PSB Alpha Intro LR's for surrounds last Friday along with 16-gauge CL-3 rated wire. BTW, last Friday, I auditioned the PSB Image 5T's in a 2-channel setup using the same material that I had burned and edited on CD and tested on Paradigms earlier on Thursday. I thought that the PSB's had a little more detail and better, warmer sound. The ride cymbals behind Stan Getz's solo on "The Girl From Ipanema" (Getz/Gilberto album) and the brushwork by Paul Motian on "Israel" (Bill Evans Trio, "Explorations") sounded clearer but not harsh. I can only imagine the perfect marriage between the PSB's and the NAD [now owned by the same mother company]. We're now considering buying a pair of either Paradigm Micros or PSB 1B's (replaced by a new model B15) as a second set to be installed in the formal dining room -- to serve as "Speaker B" outs. They will be used solely for 2-channel stereo background music and will be mounted on the wall. We have a regular 8-ft. ceiling. Any thoughts on the choice of "speaker B"? I know Johnny has 2B's as mains but I believe he uses them more for movies than for music. No, we don't have an A/V receiver yet. We're building our new (small) HT system piece by piece while this home reno thing is in progress. The NAD T762, despite its reported problems, is on my short list and the new Arcam AVR300 is on my wish list. I also asked the dealer (Great Metropolitan Sound at www.greatmet.com) about the known issues of the NAD T7** series. Apparently, they haven't received or heard any complaints yet. Hmmm. I hope I don't get a lemon when I finally bring one home. That will be the day.
Garrett33 Unregistered guest	Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 12:06 GMT I have one question:Does these 6/7ch NAD receivers[with built in amp] support crossover switching or is it fixed?So if you have a 5.1 system you can choose the crossover frequency... Hm i dont know my dealer well but im about to trust it, so ill probably buy NAD instead of Yamaha RX-VXXX.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1478 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 21:01 GMT Ojophile, I am not familiar with Mitsubishi, but the speakers might well make reasonable surrounds. If you wish to sell the complete set-up, I see that could make economic sense, of course. My own surrounds are newly-repaired 1982 Kef Coda IIs. The stand-ins, while I was waiting for new Coda II tweeter coils, were 1980 Kef Corellis. I am undecided which sounds best as surrounds, or which I prefer as the stereo/2-channel-DVD "speakers B", in the other room. The Coda IIs are more efficient, placing less load on the 5.1 receiver (NAD T760, 5 x 60 W), so that is the basis of my decision. Even the less-efficient Corellis play louder than any of my family members need. They give wonderful stereo imaging. So this is my reason for the opinion "10 years is nothing", especially for speakers. It is still a good principle to replace things in stages, I think; to listen, and decide, then, on the next stage.
Johnny Silver Member Username: Johnny Missouri Post Number: 365 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 13:37 GMT Ojophile, You are correct in saying that I use some PSB Image 2B's as my mains and that I use my system primarily for movies. However, I obviously do some music listening from time to time as well. When I first got my PSB's, I was surprised to find out that even though they are obviously considered "bookshelf" speakers and are not inteneded to be full range, the 2B's do have a fair amount of bass to them. When I listen to music, my sub doesn't get used all that much. The bass that they do have is not boomy at all...rather very tight and compact. Granted, it is not the same as having a full range speaker such as the 4T or 5T, but they hold their own in the bass department. If space is an issue and especially since you are using them solely for background music (i.e. not going to blast them), then I would think the 1B's would serve nicely. Their bass extension goes down to 50hz, which isn't too bad for a "bookshelf" speaker (the 2B only goes to 45hz). There is quite a price difference between the NAD T762 and Arcam AVR300. The T762 is being sold for under $800 while the Arcam is $1999. Garrett33, Yes, the NAD 6/7 channel receivers all have adjustable crossovers. I forget what the exact ranges of crossover are, but they are all adjustable.
Ojophile Bronze Member Username: Ojophile Toronto, ON Post Number: 21 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 14:03 GMT Thanks, Johnny. After some deliberation, my wife and I decided not to install or wall-mount any speaker in our small, formal dining room as it might spoil the 'landscape.' Garrett33, see the professional reviews on NAD T762 below. One of them states, "...change the crossover point to your heart's desire." http://www.nadelectronics.com/reviews/T762-0803AR.htm http://www.nadelectronics.com/reviews/T762-0803.htm Cheers, Don
Garrett33 Unregistered guest	Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 16:17 GMT Thanks! Im buying t743 as soon as i earn the money for a HT.Its strange, theres no tXX2 models in our country.

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