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New member Username: Madkat7Post Number: 1 Registered: Dec-05 | I currently have a Harman Kardon AVR 520 that is in the throws of a long slow death. When it worked, it was fine if not slightly underpowered at 65 watts. I want to replace it but after reading numerous reviews here and elsewhere, i am at odds with exactly what to replace it with. My speaker configuration is as follows: Fronts JBL ND310II Center JBL S-Center Rears JBL N24ii Sub Sony 10" I do not yet have a HDTV setup, but may in the near future. The HDMI issues i've read about seem to indicate that this is not necessarily important. I've looked at the following receivers / receiver lines and I am having a difficult time deciding on which one will give me the best power/sound/feature set. My budget is about $1,000. The Yamaha RX-V series is intriguing, but I see a lot of buzz about the Panasonic SA-XR55 too. Any opinions are greatly appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3264 Registered: Mar-05 | If your HK were not ailing, I'd say your weakest link is probably the Sony sub. So if you have $1000 to spend, the Panny together with a nice Hsu (hsuresearch.com) or SVS (svssubwoofers.com) would be an excellent upgrade. I would however be concerned about how your speakers will do with the Panny since JBLs are known to be on the "bright" side of things. On the other hand, some people actually like a "bright" sound, so who knows? Still, it's just $15 to ship back the Panny if you hate the combo, so it's a very cheap experiment. The Yamaha RX-V657 has gotten some very good reviews, though it reportedly also suffers from a bit of underpowering. I would imagine the much more expensive RX-V2500/2600 not to have that problem. If you want to counterbalance any brightness from your speakers, a pretty safe bet would be Marantz or Pioneer Elite AVRs which will start around $600 unless you're willing to buy refurbs. |
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New member Username: Madkat7Post Number: 2 Registered: Dec-05 | Excellent info on the potential brightness issue. I don't care for overtreble too much. I would prefer something with a good solid sound. Great info for starters. All feel free to weigh in with pros and cons. This is exactly what i need. Thanks Edster922. (BTW: I do admire your stout advocacy of the Yammy, you obvously love it!) |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 774 Registered: Oct-04 | Take a listen to Yamaha RX-V with some JBLs to see if you like the result. If it's too bright I'd say the Panasonic shouldn't even be on the radar. Check out the Harman Kardon AVR 340-640, or this years line 335-635. Definitely solid receivers with great sound, and should mate well with the JBLs. If you still find the highs bright look at the Pioneer Elite line. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3267 Registered: Mar-05 | MK, > (BTW: I do admire your stout advocacy of the Yammy, you obvously love it!) You meant my stout advocacy of the PANNY, right? : ) And yes, I do love that little thing. Was listening to some Diana Krall yesterday on my NAD setup in the bedroom and really missed the flawless detail and control of the Panny, it really struck me because this was a CD that I've listened to countless times on the latter. Speaking of brightness, consider your room's accoustics and if any sound-dampening treatments are feasible. This person, who sold his $2500 Rotel receiver for the Panny and runs $12K speakers with them, makes a very convincing case for room treatments: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6661737&&#post6661737 |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 365 Registered: Feb-05 | Erik: Do the smart thing and buy another HK- try the DPR 2005, $799 from J&R or any of the new AVR series. I have heard HK many times with JBL's metallic dome tweeters, will not be overly bright,but very rich and detailed due to the highly neutral,very transparent quality of HK amplification. |
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New member Username: Madkat7Post Number: 3 Registered: Dec-05 | Eric, I appreciate the advice but my confidence is a bit shaken in HK. My center channel died in my AVR 520 and it's gonna cost some coin to get it fixed. This is the second HK product i've had an issue with. The feature set of the Yammy RX-V2600 is quite attractive, but potential brightness issues are looming i think. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3276 Registered: Mar-05 | MK, are your JBL fronts bi-ampable? (two pairs of binding posts on the back) If so, the Panny will allow you to "tame" any possible brightness by adjusting how much power gets sent to the tweeter vs. how much goes to the woofers during bi-amp mode. Great little feature. Aside from that, the Panny does seem to allow free use of the tone controls without much sound degradation at all, unlike most receivers. |
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New member Username: Madkat7Post Number: 4 Registered: Dec-05 | I don't beleive that they are bi-ampable. I am still torn. I am trying to decide between the Yamaha RX-V1600, Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, or the Panasonic X55. Pioneer is the frontrunner at this point. I am skeptical of the digita technology at this point. It's kind of an unknown quantity. |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 191 Registered: Jun-05 | If you want to buy an electric razor, Panasonic is a good choice. If you want a receiver, either Yamaha or Pioneer is a far better choice. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 152 Registered: Jul-05 | I actually just bought a Pioneer Elite VSX-54tx from ebay and have had the chance to go between that and my panny xr-55 on my JBL's too. My overall Impression is that with the Panny, the sound is very impressive for how little and light it is, good detail and after tweaking the treble controls I was able to tame the brightness but after listening over a long period, it was alittle fatiging. The JBL/Pioneer Elite mix seems to be the most relaxed, warm and treble clear IMHO. To be honest, I love both, the panny was $250 and I got the 54tx for $430 used but in great condition, otherwise I would have stuck with just the panny. Im pretty young (20) so my fondness of "bright" sound is what I am use to, but most people dont seem to like it too much for long periods of listening. The 72txv is the upgrade from the 54tx, but sound quality will be identical, so I say try the panny for $250 first. If you don't like it, return it, its not much. The 72txv is $1400 new and $900 from ebay which is a rather large investment for sound quality that you may find the panny offers for a lot less. That's what I would do. But im a hook er when it comes to this, the 54tx is my 5th receiver in the last 2 years lol!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3285 Registered: Mar-05 | MK, If I had your speakers, I'd probably go with the Pioneer Elite myself. Or a Marantz. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3286 Registered: Mar-05 | Eric, > Im pretty young (20) so my fondness of "bright" sound is what I am use to, but most people dont seem to like it too much for long periods of listening. I'm not too sure about the word "most" here, Eric---unless you are referring to a handful of people on this forum who have been MOST obnoxious and loud in an effort to blackball the Panny, LOL. And if you remember, I also warned you against combining the Panny with your JBLs. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 154 Registered: Jul-05 | lol, Well coming from working at BB, my first experience with A/V was Yamaha and Klipsch which is overly bright, like ive said before the transition from bright to warm, fluid sound has been awkward to say the least. no edster i remember your initial warnings about the sound with the JBLs and Panny, sounds very good after some tweaking and now that I have both receivers, we'll see which one ill use the most. What is up with those guys? It's as if they are threatened that an inexpensive receiver is going to bring their tube amp/seperates down like the Berlin Wall or something. Most of what you pay in "expensive" equipment is the dang markup and costs of production because they cannot produce in bulk, whereas Panasonic can buy thousands of units of TI chips. My economics class teaches the very basics on this. |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 192 Registered: Jun-05 | Eric I understand economies of scale very well. That's not the issue here. Denon and Yamaha also buy pieces in thousands of units, and they also sell sub-$300 AVRs. But they're not as good as the more expensive AVRs they make. Why? Because to keep the price down, even WITH their economies of scale, they have to compromise on things. But the issue here is that the OP is used to good sound (regardless of the quality issues, the AVR 520 sounds great) that the Panny simply can't match. The Panny is what it is - an OK cheap receiver for someone who uses an AVR for movies >90% of the time. But that's ALL it is. I'm not saying the OP should blow his entire budget on a receiver, and Edster's idea that he should split that budget for a receiver and a sub is a great one. But the Panny is simply not that good. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3296 Registered: Mar-05 | Eric, OMG you mean you just sold your PE 74, ordered the Panny, then bought a PE 54??? Geez, your audio rack is like Grand Central Station! regarding the Panny's pricing, I'm not sure if economy of scale is the main reason, I remember reading that it's more because the digital switching technology makes the bulky, heavy and expensive power transformers found on analog receivers unnecessary. Would be curious to see Panny's sales numbers on these digitals compared to competitors' sales numbers...I think that Onkyo and Sony probably make and sell buttloads more of their entry-level receivers on the sheer strength of their existing distributing and marketing infrastructure alone. The Panny has yet to gain a foothold in any of the national chains to really make much of a dent in the market, other than a few CC stores until recently and the CC website. Interestingly enough, the CC website has been sold out of the xr55 for the past couple of weeks...so it's catching on! Still, I'm sure that CC makes a much nicer margin on say a $500-800 Yamaha, Onkyo, HK, or Sony than it does on a $234 Panny so it's easy to see why they are not rushing to meet the demand. As long as retail markups are percentage-based, I am not optimistic that it will ever really break into the retail market except at mega-volume general discount chains like Walmart and Target. I am also wondering just how profitable the xr55 really is for Panasonic, or whether it is like the Toyota Prius, a car whose MSRP is actually under production cost but still supported by Toyota (in far-from-demand-satisfying numbers) as a brand "prestige" and experimental product. I mean, if Panasonic wanted to flood the US market with the xr55 I bet we would've already seen it at the Targets and Walmarts and probably for closer to $175 instead of $230-250. Of course part of the reason is that the typical Walmart consumer is more likely to pounce on the $100 Durabrand HTIB with receiver/dvd/sub/sats and unlikely to buy the kind of non-bright speakers that would sound good with the Panny. |
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New member Username: Madkat7Post Number: 5 Registered: Dec-05 | Update... First off, thanks to all who posted. It was a great help. Bonus time rolled around and it's been a good year. After much research and comparison, the follwing items were added / replaced in my audio system. Yamaha RX-V2600 Receiver (replaced HK AVR 520) Yamaha DVD-C950 DVD Player (replaced Pioneer) SVS PB-10 Sub (replaced Sony) Sony Grand WEGA 42" HDTV (replaced 36" Hitachi) I am thrilled with all the equipment. It works well with the JBL speakers. The PB 10 simply rocks. My whole room shakes. Now on to the hookup headaches. The most confusing issue is the upscaling to HDMI that the 2600 is capable of. My DVD player, DTV receiver, Yammy Receiver, and TV have HDMI ports. As i understand, using solely HDMI connections will only pass through. This will leave older analog TV and DVD signals at their native resolutions. If this is true, would it not make more sense to use component video connections from both the DTV receiver and DVD player to the Yammy, then to run HDMI out to the TV. This should allow upscaling to HDTV resolutions for everything. Can anyone with a similar configuration confirm or deny this logic? Lastly, my old components are available if anyone is interested. The HK receiver center channel sounds like a tin can, but everything else (ie pre-amps) is fine. Lemme know otherwise they are going the eBay route. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3452 Registered: Mar-05 | MK, how big is your room? Is it upstairs or downstairs? I'm asking because I'm also planning to get a new sub, and the SVS PB10 or PB12 are both in the running. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 259 Registered: Jul-05 | MK- Congrats on all your new stuff!!! I saw the Saony 42 Grand Wega- along with the rest of their stuff- yesterday. I thought the Sony 42 was the best of the bunch in its set up room. |
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New member Username: Madkat7Post Number: 6 Registered: Dec-05 | Edster.. My room is approximately 15 by 20 with 20' ceilings. It's a 1st / 2nd story room. The PB10 rocks it no problem. The 10 has a deep but rather exact sound and fills out theater well. I haven't logged too much time with it yet, but I will in the coming week. I almost went with the 12 but it would have been overkill. the 10 cabinet is 2x the size of my previous one. Unless your room is huge, i'd say the 10 will easily fill the bill. YOu can always get another 10 later if necessary. Also of note, the yammy receiver works well with the ND310II's. They are more bass slanted than the other JBL speakers I have heard so the brightness isn't an issue. Overall, the system looks and sounds fantastic. I even built a 2 fan variable speed cooling exhaust for my AV cabinet. Marc. the Wega has an excellent picture. I've got the Sunday ticket in HD and it is gorgeous!. Thanks again for all the help and advice. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3461 Registered: Mar-05 | > Edster.. My room is approximately 15 by 20 with 20' ceilings. It's a 1st / 2nd story room. The PB10 rocks it no problem. That's impressive indeed. I wonder if the PB10 actually produces tighter and more accurate bass because of the smaller driver than the PB12 which can go lower and louder...this is often said of smaller tower speakers vs. the really massive towers. I know that one of the regulars around here, Art Kyle, tried out the PB12 and found its bass to be extremely sloppy. |