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Bronze Member Username: BvanPost Number: 17 Registered: Jun-05 | Hi Never thought I would be interested in a topic like this, but after suffering some form of noise induced hearing damage 6 months ago my listening habits have had to change somewhat. So, what speakers, amps or anything else might one want to look for in putting together a system that sounds very good at about 60db? (either specific brands and models or just features/qualities) Have thought Spendor might be a better bet than Dynaudio, and have heard that class A amps are well suited for low volume listning. anything esle anyone? maybe tubes? on a good day i can 'crank' it to 80db, so life aint too bad ;) cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6806 Registered: May-04 | If you are listening at lower levels, you would like to have a speaker which does not loose its ability to be musically involving when the dynamics are somewhat compressed by the loudest signal being much quieter than in real life. To get to that end, you have to begin with electronics which will be quite quiet; allowing the smallest signal to not get lost in the muck of the system. Tubes can accomplish that, but just as with solid state, the reality of "quiet" in electronics is often going to mean paying for something you do not hear. A quiet system will utilize better quality passive and active components. If you are looking at tube gear, it will mean well constructed transformers and excellent design in the tubes themself. The power supply will need to be well regulated to minimize noise and maintain performance at low volumes in either solid state or tubes. The speaker should be somewhat simple in design and execution. Multiple drivers and complex crossovers will drain the power coming into the speaker and generally cause the speaker to sound quite "flat" in its dynamics and "lifeless" when there aren't large voltage swings pulsing through the components. In this case "complex crossovers" refers to the number of components in the complete crossover, not just the order of division the crossover uses. A low order crossover will probably be a good choice, though a well designed fourth order can still allow the dynamics to pass through. Be wary of speakers which attempt to shape the small variations in a driver's response with additional components in the crossover network. Additional inductors and capacitors will eat up the small signals you want to hear at low volumes. Speakers that have better than average dynamics will be good for low level listening. This would typically include horn loaded designs. The problem here would be that many horn loaded designs sacrifice nuetrality for dynamics. You could easily find a typical dynamic speaker the equal of a horn loaded design at low levels if you prefer a system that gets out of the way of the music. Room treatment and system set up can make or break any system, but most especially one where severe restrictions are placed on its performance. Pay attention to, and devote some money to, these two areas. Details are important in getting the most out of a system that will be played quietly. I have no specific models to suggest, though I would recommend you listen to a fairly small wattage, single ended triode amplifier connected to a pair of full range, single driver loudspeakers to establish a reference for what can be achieved in a system playing at low levels. The Alegria loudspeakers would be a good place to begin with speaker. (http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/products.htm) (https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/reviews/156699.html) They have many virtues that might suit your needs well. As far as amplification goes, put "single ended triode amplifiers" into a search engine if you are unfamiliar with this type of design. Beyond that bit of information, it would be useful for anyone responding to your question to know more about your tastes in music along with your room size and configuration. Any information you can provide concerning what qualities of reproduction are important to you would help us better answer your question. Also, do you have a system now that you are expanding? And, finally, do you listen to live music? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6807 Registered: May-04 | http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 618 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, a perfect profile for Tim's Lings. |
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Bronze Member Username: BvanPost Number: 18 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks jan re room treatment, i got about 40% of my walls covered with wall hangings(which cover 1st reflection points to the side) and a rug on the floor and two acoustic pannels on the ceiling. i'm wondering if low level listening would favour a more or a less dampened room? re speakers, i was just about to move up the Dynaudio line to some Focus 140 standmounts(2 way, 1st order). they are known to excell in dynamics, but i have also heard they sosund their best when slightly cranked. so i dont know if they are a good choice? i'll be moving houses next year and will look for one in a quiet nabourhood. i'm also thinking that a quiet room will be important, so i'll look at getting thick fire doors and double glaze windows. i've had some of my best listning sessions of all time at low volume really late at night, and i think apart from low ambient noise, a better regulated power supply may have played a part in this. i'll check out the horns if i get lucky enough to demo them. thanks again b. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3234 Registered: Mar-05 | I'd second Jan's recommendation of the Alegria Audio Lings for low-level listening. With the right kind of music and amp, they can be really stunning. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 626 Registered: Dec-04 | From all the reviews, and knowing the listeners, Ed, I would buy the setup as advised, sight unseen. Sounds absolutely perfect for Bvan. There could be better somewhere, but none from where I sit. |
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Bronze Member Username: BvanPost Number: 19 Registered: Jun-05 | any of you guys know how magnepans fare at low volumes? cheers b. p.s was thinking that a tone controll on ones amp might be a good idea so as to get a bit more bass for low volume sessions. what you think? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6828 Registered: May-04 | With a superior amplifier in front of them, Magnepans can sound quite good at low volumes. However, they will not sound like much, in my estimation, with a mid fi receiver driving them. Most bass controls have their "knee" set at about 500 hz. This tends to alter too many frequencies when you boost or cut "bass". A more typical loudness contour usually affects the frequencies beneath 150 Hz only. This contour falls mostly outside of an area that would include the male vocal range. For this reason a loudness compensation, preferably a variable control not just an on/off switch, will have the most benefit for low level listening. I use a McIntosh MA-6200 integrated amplifier in one system. It is an older amplifier that includes a variable loudness and a five band EQ that had very usable frequency centers. These amps are available on line starting around $6-700 depending on condition. |
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Bronze Member Username: BvanPost Number: 20 Registered: Jun-05 | thnaks jan. dont know if my Arcam A85 is up do driving maggies. maybe with a sub and crossed over at 80? could also trade amps. as for compensating for perceived lost bass at low levels, maybe bumping the sub is the way to go? but i just had a look now to see about the bass controll on my amp, cause i've always been a bit concerned with what it might do to the signal. found these: " The tone controls, as a result of the sheer data-crunching power of the control microprocessor, are quite sophisticated. They use active-inductor gyrators, with a bandpass "bell-curve" bass response that allows Fletcher/Munson bass boost without generating additional subsonic loudspeaker cone excursion. Their maximum effect is +/-12dB" "Even the tone controls are unusual. When no boost or cut is selected, the amplifier recognises the fact, and bypasses the whole stage. When it is used, the response shape is quite different to the usual Baxandall type circuits, which provide at best a shelf lift at the frequency extremes. In this case the circuits simulates an LCR circuit, and provides a bell curve, with maximum bass boost around 80Hz, and negligible boost at 20Hz or below, to avoid wasting power and loudspeaker cone excursion. In effect it works as a fixed-centre frequency parametric equaliser." doesnt mean too much too me, but it seems like the effects are pretty innocuous? cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6840 Registered: May-04 | The Fletcher-Munson curves are the basis for any well designed "loudness" compensation. It would appear your amplifier should do a good job of adjusting just the region of "bass" required for low level listening. |
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New member Username: StanPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | I am considering Emma's along with a receiver in the 500-600 range. I listen at moderate levels and am interested in good musicality. Any suggestion on a receiver that match the Emma's? Yes, I know Alegria Audio indicates amps but too many wires and too expensive for my budget. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 667 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi Stan. The Emmas have a ton of low end so try to find something with a hefty power supply. Do you really need all the bells and whistles that come with a receiver or would a two channel integrated amplifier work for you? In the receiver arena you may want to look at Denon, Marantz and Pioneer. |
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New member Username: StanPost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-04 | Hi Timster I thought about going stereo but since I would also use it for movies I wanted the surround sound effect. I don't think you get with even a stereo receiver or am I wrong. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 671 Registered: Dec-03 | Stereo receivers are typically the low end offering from the big name brands. In your price range the brands I mentioned offer you high potential success. |
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New member Username: PlevinPost Number: 3 Registered: Oct-05 | This sounds like a knowledgable group; your discussions include some items I can relate to and others that seem a bit complex to me but I sense are important. I have a 12x12 room, 5x7 carpet on floor, couple chairs, desk. The left wall has almost ceiling height (84", 96" ceiling) bookshelves with glass doors. The wall where the equip and speakers will go has a closet and the cabinet is 48" wide and offset to the right side of the room. First question: a. Is it possible to get some good "soundstage" or "spaciousness" with speakers that will only be 40" apart (center to center)? b. I already purchased a yamaha v657 receiver and will add a tv for sometime home theater but mostly listen to classical music. half the time at low volume. Will this receiver work for low volume listening as discussed in the post? c. One place I went to suggested Aerial MB5. Can smaller less expenseive speakers such as the Emmas or others sound as good in this environment? d. If one buys speakers for low volume listening, does that mean they lose something when they want to crank up the volume with some good blues? e. Here or somewhere else B&Ws have been panned, but I listened to some 805s that I thought sounded good. Is buying 805s or Aerial 5b overkill for a small room and can I do just as well with less money? Willing to spend $1k to $1.5k on pair of speakers. (will add center channel later and use my old pinnacles for the back 2 channels.) f. Right now I have 3 cantons 360F speakers I picked up half price but can trade in. These sound good only if cranked up. Also trying out DefTech supercube II subwoofer. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6877 Registered: May-04 | The first issue is the room itself. Square rooms will always have the most problems as the dimensions all support the same room resonances and frequency response depressions. If the ceiling is a height which would be divisible by a common number to 12, you will have serious problems in this room. Any chance the system can go anywhere else? |
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New member Username: PlevinPost Number: 4 Registered: Oct-05 | The ceiling height is 96." 2/3rd of the "left" wall is an 84" high book shelf, with the upper half of glass doors. And my chair is currently in the back left corner. So maybe it can be though of as an 10 x 12 for the front 2/3s with a 2' bump out for the last 4 feet? What will be the effect of the problems, ie, will it be unpleasant sounds I will hear or will it be impossible to get good "soundstage, spaciousness and presence?" Thank you. Paul |