Archive through August 29, 2005
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 413 Registered: May-05 | Well, you guys got this thread to 800, congratulations. But, you lost me somewhere back there. I got the army boots, somewhat followed the LS3/5as and got completely lost on most of the rest. But, I just got back from Montana and Glacier Nat'l Park, prettiest place west of the Alps. Yeah, you heard me. Come on over and take a look before you disagree. Otherwise, "your mother wears army boots." Joseph, that was for you. LOL |
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New member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 7 Registered: Aug-05 | Boots = very hot right now Army boots = vintage, also hot I had no idea you gentlemen had such a fashion sence. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5116 Registered: May-04 | Margie, you can't imagine how fashionable I am. |
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New member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 8 Registered: Aug-05 | Soooo... Tell me about it.. How does it go? What are you wearing now?  |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3653 Registered: Dec-03 | Careful, Margie.... |
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New member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 10 Registered: Aug-05 | John was that offensive? If so I'm sorry I was just being silly. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5122 Registered: May-04 | That's OK, Margie. John's just trying to spare you some embarrassment. He knows I do all my posting on the forum nekked. |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 11 Registered: Aug-05 | LOL I should have seen that coming. Just handed it to you. I'm out of my league... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3657 Registered: Dec-03 | No, no offence at all, Margie! I just thought "What are you wearing?" is the sort of post you get on forums/fora devoted to another subject altogether. So I am told. |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 12 Registered: Aug-05 | Yep...out'a my league..."forums/fora"...I'm not going there....gullible yes....but I learn fast! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3661 Registered: Dec-03 | Smiley. Sorry to lower the tone of the debate.... |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 769 Registered: Sep-04 | ...enjoyable though... |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 957 Registered: Mar-05 | WOW! sever's down a couple of days and it turns into AOL instant messenger! lol |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5129 Registered: May-04 | OK! Another week of frivolity has passed with no one even offering an idea they are willing to put an order to what is important to them in music reproduction. Does anyone remember what the bulk of posts on this thread are about? |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 773 Registered: Sep-04 | err...that would be taking the mickey out of each other wouldn't it? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3667 Registered: Dec-03 | Top priority imho: Fidelity. But, as opposed to...? "Fidelity" may produce the reply "Of course; what else could we be talking about?" I'd be stuck to answer that. Or "Fidelity to what?" which is where this thread began. I think. I always have a problem with lists, which is what to assume if an essential item does not appear. Assume it is totally absent? Assume it has some average value? What would that be? If we missed out "volume", do we assume the system is silent, or that it is not capable of playing especially loud? It would have to be the second of those if we could still say anything about transparency, coloration, seamlessness, etc. What about "value for money"? As opposed to...? Jan, where exactly are we headed...? |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 13 Registered: Aug-05 | John...you're fun.... Jan..you too... I was going through this thread trying to really understand what everyone meant by there comments. Trying to break the habit of useing words that mean something to me and convert to the discriptions that will convey my meaning to others. Trying to apply all this to my own system. Enter my son....with a Marantz 2275 ( 70's era ) one of my favorite...personalities. I already have a Mac 6100....I love this...it purrs in my ear. So I'm thinking and listening... Enter a gift from a friend. (The Mac is an integrated amp. so there is no tuner. No big loss in Napa, radio reception ... is poor.) The gift is a B&K TS-108 tuner and the B&K MC-101 pre-amp that goes with it. Well I knew that B&K was a good brand but I don't remember ever hearing them. I was happy a radio would be fun. Well Brian could'nt get the pre amp connected fast enough. WOW!! This changes everything. We've connected it to both the Mac and the Marantz and I am stunned. It is the best sound. I didn't think I would ever have anything that sounded better than the Mac but this does. I do realize my Mac is just a little one.... Anyway describing my system now will take a little more listening. |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 14 Registered: Aug-05 | Jan I also have this visual image of you posting....slows me down a bit. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5141 Registered: May-04 | Fidelity? Volume?! At this rate we're headed over the cliff, John. Volume?????!!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3669 Registered: Dec-03 | Volume?????!!!!! My point being:- what if "Volume" is not on the list? Anywhere? Does that mean is no volume at all....? What use is a hifi that makes no sound....? Sorry, Margie. Back to your post. No, the previous one.... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5148 Registered: May-04 | John, if you were here in my room with me, you would see me shaking my head in disbelief. 800 posts to get to "volume". I don't believe it! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3671 Registered: Dec-03 | No, Jan, my point is about lists. My point is, if we do not have some particular quality of sound on the list, what do we assume? That the quality is completely unimportant...? That we can do without it, and forget about it...? It has no connection with other qualities.....? I chose "volume" precisely because it is taken as a given. But, if there is no volume, then there is no imaging, no seamlessness, no fidelity, no vibrant three-dimensionality, no soundstage, no anything. You hoped we might "put an order to what is important ... in music reproduction" I am just saying an order of importance is difficult to imagine unless we know what it means for each item to be absent from the list. This is getting silly. I am not explaining very well. An analogy. For a happy life, place in order of importance: food, drink, clean air, good health, friendship, heat, light, money, etc. Well, if we have all except one, we are likely to think it is especially important, because we take all the others for granted. But we cannot; they are all connected. Returing to audio, the purest and most accurate sound reproduction will be as nothing if we have to struggle to hear it. We tend to take adequate volume of sound for granted, today. It was not always this way. I thought Margie was posting some interesting observations. I seem to have derailed this completely. I shall stop arguing about words, think about a list of qualities in sound, and try to imagine what what our contributor from Napa is wearing. Hmmmm..... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5153 Registered: May-04 | "I am just saying an order of importance is difficult to imagine unless we know what it means for each item to be absent from the list." So is "banana" on your list or off your list? How the "H" do you know that you know that something is not on your list? You are getting very Rumsfeldian again, John. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3673 Registered: Dec-03 | "Banana" is off my list; it is not necessary for music reproduction. So its absence makes no difference. The request to "place the following in order of importance" is one I am familiar with, and I can often not understand what the question means. Other people have no trouble with that, I know. Among anyone's list of requirements for sound reproduction must surely come "Adequate volume". Mere quantity of sound. No-one would claim for a moment it is the only requirement. This is illustrates the problem I have with looking for a single quality that matters most. The problem is this: what do you assume about other necessary qualities? They are absent? They are adequate? They are there in abundance? There are lots of qualities necessary for music reproduction. They interact - are connected. As you have said, Jan, the system is more than the sum of its components. If we make an attempt at some single, overall quality, we are bound to suggest something quite abstract, yet that does not seem to be what you want. "Fidelity" seem about the only reasonable single quality, in my opinion. But it is not specific enough to be helpful. You may say that "goes without saying"; it is implied in you original question "do you listen?" But "fidelity to the original sound" is surprisingly controversial. Is there "fidelity" to any thing else? "Fidelity to expectations" perhaps? Many people seem to place "credibility" ahead of "fidelity". If you use real, live music as the reference, it seems to me that "fidelity" and "credibility" are the same thing. If you do not, they are not. I have asked before - can you give an example of what you are after, Jan? You will see I am still wondering what the question means. Rumsfeld is a duplicitious politician. He does not care what questions mean. I may be failing to understand, but at least I am trying to do so. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 211 Registered: Dec-04 | Rumsfeld is obviously quite clever, but not clever enough to underestimate his audience though. I think one of his quotes is well worthy of this thread - ... because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. Couldn't have put it better myself! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5161 Registered: May-04 | John - I'm not after anything. I have repeated that several times also. What I am |i{after} is everyone thinking about what is important to them. Not one single overarching quality; but a compendium of what you are aware of in live music and in its reproduction in your home. As with, "it needs more bass", the insertion of "volume" into the discussion is certain Rumsfeldian! If you can't hear it, then that is not the system you want. It's quite simple in that regard, John. According to Mr. R. you may go to war with the army you have and not the army you want; but you do not go to listen to music with the system you do not want! You have a choice. My question is involved with acquiring that system and the choices you make in order to get the system you want. It's pretty simple and doesn't require further obfuscation to derive a short list of objectives to consider in order to obtain a system that satisfies those desires. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 960 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, I have said this before. I think that none of us can give you the answers because no matter what we say, it does not fall in line with your perception of "what qualities..." and other (unanswerable in my op.) questions you give. If you were to ask a 10 years younger you these questions, you would probably disagree with him (love to see that go back and forth! lol). So if our ears change over time, do the qualities?? Would you buy the same system 20 years ago that you have now? If you had unlimited resources would you change your current system? why? In my opinion, it is not simple. Although you may have a grasp on how to word the qualities and terms of the "ideal" system, I have not. I know what pleases my ears in the budget I have given to this hobby/way of life. I stick to that. Otherwise "I" get lost in the upgraditis that usually takes a hold of me with whatever I am into. That's just me though(another reason I like espresso, legal c0caine). I am on meds again (just had something naughty removed from my skin) so I may be rambling on a bit, sorry. |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 15 Registered: Aug-05 | Good post Joe I think taste in music may change but I think you might be surprised how simular " what you want in a system" may not. My first real stereo was a Marantz 2270 receiver and JBL L100 speakers. I have them both again and I still love that sound. My ears have aged but not my "heart". Grin I have added more/better components but I don't see any reason not to keep both. I have more than one room, I can have more than one system. Simple...NO This discussion has been all about what it is, after all, that is important to each of us in our systems. I've learned alot. I've read opinions and different ways of expressing values. I haven't changed but I do understand what I value and why a little better. I suspect, Joe that what pleases your ear now won't change over time. You will just be able to have "more" of it. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5166 Registered: May-04 | jc - I shall not address "naughty" pieces of flesh. That seems far outside the purview of "Do you listen". I believe you and I have discussed the situation of "upgraditis" previously. This categorization of "what do I hear" is not in the least fashion about getting anyone to constantly upgrade equipment. It is, in the simplest terms, about getting what you want, within your budget, the first time you shop. If you should change your mind, then you still have a basis format for making further changes to your system. The original question in this thread, as far as I can remember, was based on what you hear in a live performance. The qualities of live performance do not change upon a whim or a fad, jc. That you might notice something that had previously gone undetected is a matter of maturity. That process cannot be deterred even if some of us attempt to slow its progress. But that in no way implies that what you have established previous to such an epiphany should be discarded. I assume as you have allowed your system to improve over time, the "qualities" of imaging, soundstaging and detail have not been discarded. This thread's attempt is only to supplant those words with words that refer to the unchanging nature of live performance. As to my choices twenty years ago; you must not have been paying attention on the various threads where I have written about my "present" system. For the most part, my system has remained virtually intact for more than the last fifteen to twenty years. Certainly the main portions of the system. Pieces of equipment that have worn out (CD/DVD players) have needed replacement. What they were replaced with would, in my opinion, be seen as reasonably similar products; at least in the way they reproduce music. I did establish my priorities quite a long while ago. Two things to say about that matter. First, as I've said, I never considered myself typical of the clients I worked with. Second, because my job was to establish some sort of hierarchy for my clients, it became imperative that I first establish the same for myself. So asking me would my qualities have changed position or been replaced over time is somewhat like asking a doctor would he have diagnosed a common cold virus in the same fashion today as when in residency. I think the answer would, in almost all cases, be made in the negative. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 962 Registered: Mar-05 | Not to offend anyone here tI aaaaaaaaaaaaaqte a bit younger than mst o and feel like I am just starting to establish "my own". Maybe then , regarding sonic maturity, we reach a pinnacle. You must have reached that 15-20 years ago Jan? I feel like my ears open up further and further every day I listen to this current system. Taking into account that this current system is a lightyear away from what I was listening to a year ago, it seems that my ears continue to grow and the system grows with me. One of the reasons I did not "impulse buy" this time around. The most profound change has been in the music itself. My tastes have totally changed. Not to a specific genre or type, but to "pure" and "less busy" music. I would imagine the reason for this is the fact that I can hear more and more out of the more simple music, even though there is less going on. I do not frequent live events like most of you and therefore I might just need to leave this alone. I cannot give the kind of comparisons you guys do with regards to live vs. system. I just enjoy the learning and finding my own "hierarchy" within this. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 963 Registered: Mar-05 | Whoa, the wireless keyboard was running out of juice there at the beginning, just noticed , sorry. "not to offend anyone here but I am quite a bit younger than most of you and feel....." I know you are probably all thinking "he's on the drugs" but I promise it was the keyboard. I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about naughty skin removed either, it was a malignant area that was removed, nothing sexually dubious. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5168 Registered: May-04 | I'm not certain we reach a "pinnacle". Rather we learn how to listen with more discriminating ears constantly. When we are young, a double bacon cheeseburger and fries laden with grease along with a 32oz. CocaCola sounds like an excellent choice at 2AM on a weekend. As we get more "mature" a simple plate of pasta with allio ollio and an antipasto of tomatoes, basil and mozzerella becomes our preference. But, do not forget there is also lasagne bolognese. Do not let your audio system push you into choosing music that sounds good on it. Let the music you enjoy allow you to choose which components compliment it. If the system is true to the music, all music should stand a chance of surviving any decent system. |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 16 Registered: Aug-05 | Jan I think clarity is still the first requirement for me. The word transparent has been used a lot and maybe these were included in " black background of silence". My ear hears two seperate parts. (I think the silence will cost more money.) When I bought my car I upgraded the sound system not because I needed extra speakers and sub woofers but because the clarity was better. I can't really say that there is a better quality of a "black background of silence" maybe but it is a car. I think these two must be present to some base level for the instruments/voices to sound real. Effortless/relaxed...Oh yes! Maybe this is as important to me as it is because I'm not a kid anymore. I don't remember ever thinking edgy was a desirable quality and maybe I listen to different music but for the system to reproduce music in a way that sounds real to me it needs to be effortless. It's a big part of the system disappearing so the music can come out. Engaging/involving.....This seems to me to be more of a personility preference than quality of reproduction. Two mfg. producing equal quality will have their own sound. One may be more engaging/involving than the other. The whole issue of emotion and feeing is tough. Lots of discussion. Reliving or finding new. Over and over people talked about it. "...listening with your heart instead of your mind."(Frank) "...the feel of the live performance.."(Joe) "...some of the feelings of the real thing."(Art) "...just a different feel.....the one that puts the biggest smile on my face.." (Stu) "...the magic is..."(John)"...it has a swagger even when being modest."(Jan). That is just a few. Lots of discriptions. Boiled down it is what music is all about. Which emotions or feelings we want to experence and why is personal. I think any equipment can do "it" for us given the right conditions. If my system is clear and has a black background of silence, the instruments/voices sound real, the sound is effortless/relaxed, and I find the personality of the system to be engaging/involving, then I have fertile ground for the emotional experences be them old or new. Yes I have this system...more than one. John.....black..leather.. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3680 Registered: Dec-03 | diablo; I also think I like the Rumsfeld quote, except the last bit; that category of things we don't know we don't know. It is puzzling. Jan; I'd still like a few concrete examples. Volume seems to me fairly essential. Some people give it high prioirity; I was honestly not trying to be evasive. On the contrary. Trying to suggest something simple and concrete we could all agree was essential, before moving on to more abstract and intangible qualities. Joe; I agree. Hifi is a good thing. You can hear all sorts of music you would never otherwise encounter. And with a quality system, you can listen, learn more, and understand what composers and performers are trying to do. Margie; Thank you.... Interesting.... |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 964 Registered: Mar-05 | Margie, I also upgraded my car stereo. Not for the clarity of the home system. But for the type of music I listen to in the car and the amplification that most stock car systems are missing. I have a subwoofer in the trunk. Not a massive bank of muddy bass, but one single very high quality 10" sub. I also have separate midrange and tweeters in the front and back. This makes music much more enjoyable if the windows are down going 60mph on the highway. I can hear all the details I want to hear while drowning out the background noise. The quality of a car system is very limited(the obvious:road noise, wind, confined space, limited midrange enclosures) but I wouldn't expect the same results I get at home. Therefore I do not listen to "simple" music in the car(usually). I listen to rock and some techno (yes I am young) in a completely different environment. There is probably $4000 worth in my car, but it wouldn't even come close to half that of quality home components, it's just the way it is. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5175 Registered: May-04 | Thank you, Margie. It's obvious you gave some thought to the last 820+ posts. OK, John, put volume where you want to on your list and have a go at it. Come on, John. Lists are not that difficult to create. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3682 Registered: Dec-03 | List. 1. Fidelity 2. Transparency 3. Clarity (Thanks, Margie) 4. Dyamic range 5. Full frequency response 6. Imaging 7. Soundstage 8. Volume 9. Other things I may have missed 10. All of the above |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 966 Registered: Mar-05 | That list applies to what, the system as a whole? What about the space the system is in? What about the music type being listen to? What about what mood we are in? With or without army boots? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5178 Registered: May-04 | John, that was wonderful. Not a single idea that has been discussed on this thread other than including several items we were intentionally trying to avoid. Mr. Rumsfeld tips his hat to you, John A. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5179 Registered: May-04 | And "VOLUME" is number 8?! |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 836 Registered: May-05 | Volume is always 0db setting..... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3683 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, it is nonsense. I have been trying to point out any list is nonsense. Jan, you insisted I have a go. "Lists are not that difficult to create. " They are if they are going to make any sense. As I said, miss one factor out, and what does it mean? Change the order, and what does that mean? Some factors depend on one or more of the others. They ALL depend on "Volume" having a value greater than zero. So you can put "volume" anywhere you like; you still need some. Perhaps we should distinguish necessary from sufficient, and both of those from desirable. "Volume" is necessary. "Fidelity" is sufficient. "Low noise" is desirable. And so on. And these are all "system qualities" not "music qualities" - let me remind you I KNOW the music is the whole point, and none of these is an end in itself. You can always just go to a concert. Try this instead. 1. Fidelity 2. Transparency 3. Clarity 4. Authentic dyamic range (varies with type of music) 5. Full frequency response 4. Lack of noise - high enough signal-to-noise ratio 7. If stereo, ability to resolve directions of different sources of sound 8. If stereo, ability to resolve distances of different sources of sound 9. Ability to do all these things at a range of volumes, including the original one 10. Other things I may have missed |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3694 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry, I did not notice the "No through road" sign. I thought that was a much better list. I substituted 7 and 8 for "imaging" and "soundstage". It was not an exaggeration to say, earlier, that "volume" is sufficient for some people. Consider, under receivers, Look alls i want is a reciever that pumps mad power. Jan has cited this thread in a few other places. If I have stopped it, or diverted it, apologies. That was not my intention. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 870 Registered: May-05 | What about 21.2 or a 27.2 sound system, this will be a discrete set of frequency bands that will be separate from one another, more a less like what an Active X-over does with dividing the signal from a mono signal that is sent to it and presenting it back with lower lows and higher highs. Though I don't see this happening, but anything is possible, with today's technology at hand it's those, who disagree with newer techniques. And as for the loudspeakers, well that's another story, the loudspeaker will have to be able in the home cinema arena be able to handle the dynamics from this set-up, which will deliver a crisper spectrum of sound to the listener with universal excellence without distortion. So Jan, you're a thinking person's man? What do you think, can it be made to work, and if there's one word that I don't like to hear, that's the word impossible.... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5202 Registered: May-04 | You're asking the wrong person on the wrong thread, Ashley. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 876 Registered: May-05 | There I asked it and it's the wrong thread, oh well plan B? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 417 Registered: May-05 | I'm back. John, thanks for the info. on the Holst CD. I will find it, listen for a couple of hours and report further. Bad Margie, Bad Margie, no discussion of black leather, especially if it's anything other than your outer garments. (Please don't respond to this, I'm not certain my little heart could take it.) LOL 1. Integrated; 2. engaging; 3. enveloping; 4. allows us to relive emotions; 5. find new suprising moments; 6. sounds like the real instruments; 7. Involving; 8. allows us to envision what is (not) there; 9. effortless; and 10. Relaxed. The first three come from several 100 posts back and must be read with the explanations/definitions I used at the time. See, you thought I'd forgotten to come back when, in reality, I have simply been traveling the countryside and waiting for the right moment to put my mind to work. Well, there it is. I'm resting now, since it's the 7th day. (OK, I know that's subject to dispute but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 418 Registered: May-05 | Joseph, Very belated but congratulations on the new amp. I'm envious. ENJOY!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5209 Registered: May-04 | Thanks, Dak. See, John, he can make a list. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 915 Registered: May-05 | Sure I think I have all ready mentioned that I have Holst the planets, which is performed by the "LSO" and conducted by "Richard Hickox" and recorded at Abby Road July 8th & 9th 1987, this is still good sounding today from the day it was produced, he gives you a run for your money's, worth while. This is a complete arrangement of this classical recording being only stereo though it's not all bad listening pleasure from start to finish... With lots of highs that reach high but a safe a wise comfortable level of 85dba weighting, I don't mind at all... The other version is a sample that, was produced for dts, demo 1999 Vol.1 some of you may be formulary with this copy, "Mars the Bringer of War" on this state of the art dts recording really does hit the notes musically and the LFE pounds you in the chest with the deep timpani sounds and that growling low note that registers down to 20Hz possible lower, as the windows in the kitchen are to the point of falling out.... It's my classical demo.... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3700 Registered: Dec-03 | Andy, Naxos has a 5.1 Planets on both DVD-A and SACD. It is a good recording and performance, in my opinion. Also inexpensive. Dakulis and I were discussing a particular recording (from 1978), on EMI. The re-issue is very good, Dakulis, I do recommend it. It is coupled with The Enigma Variations (from 1971), which is not so good, at least in terms of sound, imho. Dakulis, I like your list. I think it contains more the sort of subjective impressions that Jan was originally interested in. 4,5, and 7, for example, are very personal - what engages some people does not engage others. However, I will happily merge lists. That will be twenty items. I must repproach you; no true gentleman would enquire, however discretely, about what else, if anything, is worn with BL, particularly under it, and certainly not enquire in public. I shall, of course, not even hint at the extent to which this and other questions might already have been addressed in off-line messages. Jan, How are we doing? The lists, I mean? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3702 Registered: Dec-03 | Andy, If I remember your location correctly, you are uniquely well placed to get some of those Naxos 5.1 discs - the ones by the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra - and then go to a concert in the location where the recording was made, the Poole Arts Centre. That does not apply to the Planets, which was recorded in Glasgow. It does apply to some other, marvellous pieces, though, which I can recommend. But that would take us off-topic, again. You could even get the CDs, too, and investigate whether any format really sounds most like actually being there. I have some of the DVD-As, and they are good recordings; it would be a fair contest. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 977 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks Dak. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5221 Registered: May-04 | John - I can only take a zen approach to the question, "how are we doing?" We are doing as well as any of you feel you are doing. If the list was made just to make a list, you are still a protestant. If you gave some thought to the list in order to understand what is on the list, you might be a little more catholic than you thought. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3704 Registered: Dec-03 | What an enigmatic remark, Jan. I believe I am neither of those. But I did give it a little thought. Perhaps I should have included "....in your opinion". You were, after all, the guy who wrote: What I am after is everyone thinking about what is important to them. Not one single overarching quality; but a compendium of what you are aware of in live music and in its reproduction in your home. I still maintain this is asking for things in different catagories. Someone gives a "music" term, and we are not talking hifi. Someone gives a "hifi system" term, and we are not talking music. So, I am with Joe, who wrote "...none of us can give you the answers because no matter what we say, it does not fall in line with your perception of 'what qualities...'" A single example, to disprove this, please! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5228 Registered: May-04 | Certainly! I'll triple your pleasure just for asking so politely. Engaging. Relaxed. Allows us to envision what is (not) there. None are distinctly music words nor are they hifi words. They are our personal response to the music and the hifi. Surely music can be all three and can dispel any attempt at all three. The same could be said for a hifi system. No? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3708 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes. But these words convey different things when applied to the different catagories. For example, a nice, relaxed system will effortlessly reproduce The Rite of Spring. If the system allows us to envision what the music does, then what we see has been envisioned twice, and in different ways. Engaging. I'll think about it. You know, I think you may have a point, there.... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5238 Registered: May-04 | "You know, I think you may have a point, there...." Oh, good Lord!!!!! This is the sound of me banging my head against the wall, John. See if you find it engaging, relaxing or allows you to envision what is (not) there. * * * "But these words convey different things when applied to the different catagories." One more time! * * * |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 978 Registered: Mar-05 | Engaging ; synonyms:agreeable, alluring, appealing, attractive, bewitching, captivating, enchanting, enticing, entrancing, fascinating, fetching, glamorous, interesting, intriguing, inviting, likable, lovable, magnetic, mesmeric, pleasant, pleasing, prepossessing, siren, sweet, winning, winsome I guarantee you that all of these could mean different things to everyone, What is pleasing to me Jan , may not be to you. That was my point. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3710 Registered: Dec-03 | I agree, Joe. Jan, we seem to gravitate to semantics. It we agreed that a speaker was "wooden" and a musical performance was "wooden", would we have found one of the qualities we seek.....? So it is with "effortless". BTW what do you mean by " * * *"? Joe, you have learned American - does that translate as "*&%$%!" ? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 420 Registered: May-05 | John A, Who said I was a "true gentleman"? Moreover, I was not inquiring, I was simply stating if such was the case, I didn't want to know any further details, lest Margie further muddle my attentiveness to the questions at hand in "listening" and divert my attention to "wondering". However, if you, or Margie, thinks me a cad, I apologize profusely to all concerned, especially Margie. BUT having apologized, the fewer revelations about clothing, especially Jan "nekked" while typing, the better for my ability to keep my mind on the relevant questions and avoid diversions, I'm afraid. "This is the sound of me banging my head against the wall, John. See if you find it engaging, relaxing or allows you to envision what is (not) there." This really is inappropriate behavior, Jan, especially while typing "nekked", you'll get blood all over Tim's little Ding a Lings. John and Andy, thanks for the additional thoughts on "The Planets". Any idea gentlemen where I might be able to obtain one or more of these online, if, as one might suspect in the barren, musical desert of Spokane, I am unable to find any of these recordings. (John, my original 1978 recording was obtained in L.A. when I still lived there. Much better and broader musical options there, I'm afraid, but also more people with guns and short tempers, if you've ever seen an L.A. freeway you would understand this.) LOL Finally, my list was carefully crafted for hours, you can tell by the long times between posts, and it was intended to lend some credibility to my initial assertions that some things in the music are quantifiable and some things are purely a matter of listening taste or experience. Obviously, items 1, 6 and possibly 3 are more finite qualities in the music that are either present, or if absent means that your source probably needs to be inspected. (Here, by source, I'm talking about the original recording and not the components.) The remainder are more personal and subjective but 2, 4, 5, 7 and 8 need to be present in the music source or I'm not likely to listen very long or care whether I'm listening at all. Item 10 is so subjective that I could have left it out. "Relaxed" simply does not tell me enough about the music to be very helpful in the context that we have tried to create. So, anybody want to play or express preferences further or is there more of "Do You Listen?" to be explored? Have we beat the subject to death? Do I need to go read Rick's thread on tube amps? Are the Lings in the mail (or post)? Is Holst really dead or just waiting for us to find some additional planets? OK, I've run out of serious and irreverent questions. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 926 Registered: May-05 | John, Yes I'm formally with the "BSO" and the Poole Arts Centre, I was there when Queen Elizabeth the II opened it way back in was it 1981? I was in one of the auditoriums with the school on an excursion and leistering to the chap that was talking about the complex, the next thing was the Queen of the United Kingdom was walking into one of the theatres, well there's something you don't see every day.... The "BSO" are doing a concert at "Merrick Park" in Bournemouth, with fireworks etc, though, I don't know when the event takes place, properly all ready missed it damn..... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5243 Registered: May-04 | "What is pleasing to me Jan , may not be to you. That was my point." I understood your point. You missed mine apparently. The idea is not to have "lists" which line up perfectly with one another. The idea is develop your own preferences whether they are similar to my list or not. Why, someone could even look at John's list and possibly conclude he put some thought into it. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 982 Registered: Mar-05 | Pulling, distracting, thought provoking and intoxicating. Those are some of mine. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5246 Registered: May-04 | In a music system or a girlfriend? |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 980 Registered: May-05 | Well I have one she's called Marantz she's a stunning beauty the 1050 she's only a few years younger than me and I've been dating her now for 16 years now.... |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 789 Registered: Sep-04 | Not wishing to ruin the thread of thought that is passing through here, but Jan asked me to paste in this rather long post I had put in another thread in the Phono section. Apologies for the diversion. The subject was regarding what the term "flat earth" (much used in the UK) was meant to mean. Jan seemed to think it could prove enlightening herein. Regards, Frank. Linn used to make record deck (Sondek LP12) and speakers (Linn Saras and Isobariks). Naim provided the amplification. Linn came out with the source first principle claiming that you couldn't fix a signal once it was broken and many many LP12s were sold because they really did something special on the front of quite basic systems. Linn developed an amplifier - oh dear! Naim took effront and developed the SBL loudspeaker (a classic that lasted 20 years). Naim compounded the split with the ARO tonearm and Armageddon power supply - for the LP12. They never produced a complete turntable. They didn't produce a CD player until 1991 and then it was hailed as one of the most organic sounding players on the planet. Linn also came out with CD players, went down the multi-room route and developed the range beyond what was traditionally thought of as the hairshirt HiFi company. Naim have expanded their offering and appear to be coming into that fold too, but more slowly. On the subject of PR&T, a relatively famous test was the Linn toe-tapping test. Could you follow the tune? Linn contended that if you could not or did not connect with music such that it got your toe tapping, then it didn't matter how well the kit measured since it didn't do the job it was intended to do. This was broken into constituent parts of pace, rhythm and timing. Pace can seem different in systems. They can sound 'fast' or 'slow'. Neither is correct - 'fast' can sound rushed, 'slow' just drags along. Rhythm is a factor more appropriate with modern music but still appropriate to classical. It is that factor which makes you want to get up and dance, or at least gets your heart beating in time with the music. Timing is factor which is more to do with interplay between musicians. When you listen to a piece of jazz or rock, a system exhibits good timing when you can tell that the various musicians are playing off each other, where the bass leads the beat instead of follows it. This is a very difficult aspect to get right and where most systems fall down. As you can see from these descriptions (which are a first cut), the elements are nothing like the tradional technical merits of the recording (soundstage etc) and everything to do with the musical content. This is why those who appreciate this type of system find round earth attributes a distraction. Their point of view is that it doesn't matter how 'nice' a recording sounds if it doesn't have the engaging attributes of the musical performance. A round earth system is one which - in their view - simply doesn't get the basics of the music right in the first place and has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. It is a different way of listening I think. For example, I've had the situation where my manager who is a serious flat earther has asked me what people are listening to on several occasions when he's heard some new much vaunted piece of kit which fails utterly to reproduce PR&T properly. It escapes him completely. I am not such a flat earther. My system accomplishes many round earth attributes handsomely while maintaining much of the PR&T of flat earth systems. Therefore I appreciate much of the rounder earth kit, but I admit that I wish the balance of my system (wonderful though it is) was slightly more flat earth - without losing its round earth attributes! And therein lies the rub. It seems that to make a flat earth system do round earth properly takes a heck of a lot of money. It seems that it is easier to give a system round earth attributes which are immediately and obviously impressive than it is to make a system which has flat earth attributes. An amp may have more sparkle, space and air (Pioneer A400 anyone?), or it might have a deep warm bass (90's Arcam anyone?) but it won't time well or will become wearing over time or just be boring, allowing you to read a book when Led Zeppelin is on in the background! No way you can do that with a flat earth system. You just lose your train of thought and lose yourself in the music. John, early Meridian (always Meridian, even though they used to put their names in front in the beginning) was flat earth, but they went round earth in the 80's with the 500 series and then pioneered digital reproduction in the home when people just about knew how to spell digital. Meridian is arguably the leader in digital electronics nowadays and MLP is the fruit of Meridian's investment in digital techniques. MLP is Meridian Lossless Packing - a lossless form of compression that can be done on the fly allowing DVD-A to contain huge amounts of data while using relatively little capacity. But Meridian's sound is certainly not flat earth. Fantastic - just not particularly involving in my view. The rest don't just 'shun' SACD (and by the same token DVD-A). I have spoken with people at one or two of these manufacturers. They are investigating SACD and DVD-A and they have played with them, but they have great difficulty getting it to sound right. It seems a lot of the PR&T stuff is down to phase coherency and linearity; it's possible phase gets really messed up with the current crop of high resolution chipsets, or they simply have to learn their lessons like they did when CD first appeared. Whichever it is, it's not because they don't want to be in that marketplace. They're businesses after all, and can't ignore important developments in the industry. Of course SACD and DVD-A simply haven't taken off so these smaller companies may simply be waiting to see which format wins the war (if any) before committing production costs to their kit. Naim, Linn et al have long lived products. e.g. a CD player will typically last 3 years without modification and an amp may last up to 5 years (!) so they have to take this into account. This is another reason why the likes of Meridian have gone for board replacement architectures in their high end stuff (their high end stuff is our super stratospheric stuff...) to try to build in some lack of obsolescence. Not so strange after all. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 988 Registered: Mar-05 | "In a music system or a girlfriend?" See how an unusual description of qualities can seem strange, but can you deny that a good system is distracting? If a song is reproduced on a crappy system, and it's a song dear to our hearts, we are likely to not enjoy that song if even listen to it at all. On a quality system, that song may be so detailed, it may provoke thoughts. If I am reading a book or magazine with tv noise on, there is no problem staying focused and interested in the read. If a good system reproducing quality music is on then I might have a problem : "......allowing you to read a book when Led Zeppelin is on in the background! " And lastly, I don't know about you guys, but to me good music is intoxicating. Magnified with a quality system (accentuated with ) it can be even more rousing. My point here is to name words not likely named in describing musical qualities desired in a hifi system. But no less applicable to "my" experience in defining "what qualities we look for in a system". |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5266 Registered: May-04 | You're perfectly free to have whatever you want on your list. I have two questions for you. Is this a list that is likely to remain more or less permanent with you; do you think? If those are the qualities you find necessary, why didn't you mention any of them before now? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 989 Registered: Mar-05 | Those are four of thousands of qualities I look for when auditioning a new "system" purchase, for me to try and list all of them would be a waste of both of our time. Those would definitely remain permanent. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3723 Registered: Dec-03 | For anyone parachuting into this thread: thanks to Frank, whom Jan asked to place that text here. The original, and some responses, are on the thread What is meant by "flat earth" audio?. On that thread, "PR&T" is explained, and stands for "Pace, Rhythm and Timing". My own opinion is that these qualities, too, are in the music, not the system. We keep getting back to musical properties of HiFi. I do think this is a mistake, and that "PR&T" is no exception. All sound, including music, is propagating waves of pressure in a medium, usually air. The system should reproduce these. If it does, all the desirable musical properties, however we describe them, are contained within the sound produced, and the system will be the source of an exact copy of the sound recorded at the original performance. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1000 Registered: May-05 | There's enough words hear to publish the holy grail of loudspeakers.... |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 424 Registered: May-05 | Jan, Joseph was too busy dealing with army boots, previously. And, until he quit pulling on the army boots and got past the whole foot fet@sh, he couldn't possibly concentrate on his qualities of music. (See, it's the whole "pulling" and "distraction" dichotomy that he was talking about which I found fairly thought provoking and intoxicating, myself.) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5273 Registered: May-04 | You would, Dak. Thousands, j.c.? Thousands? I thought that was the purveyance of Timothy Dannenhoffer. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 990 Registered: Mar-05 | Dak, lmao thats pretty good! How many songs do you like Jan? Over a thousand? Do every single one give you the same feeling or different? Does the same type of genre give you the same feelings even though the songs and artists are different? Does an original song and it's remake by another artist give you the same feelings? This to me directly reflects in my audio systems, everyone of the songs I enjoy does something different. The same song played in my car would give me different feelings if it was played in the house system. Moreover, if I was wearing army boots I would have a completely different feeling about what songs I was listening to. This not may be the case for you Jan , but it is my experience. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5277 Registered: May-04 | You live a strange life, j.c. |
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MTGG Unregistered guest | Well at least he has one! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5286 Registered: May-04 | So says the man trolling the audio forum. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1000 Registered: Mar-05 | Why do you say I live a strange life Jan? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5294 Registered: May-04 | Oh, I don't know. That could be a thread all its own. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1010 Registered: Mar-05 | Are you insulting me or messing around? |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1040 Registered: May-05 | Quote So says the man trolling the audio forum. ___________________________________________________________ Yeah in the form of a (cactus plant), Sorry, Jan the last 24Hours was an odyssey of inconclusive proof..... __________________________________________________________________- |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5301 Registered: May-04 | j.c. - I have no reason to insult you. Do I? |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1018 Registered: Mar-05 | Not at all , do you? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 429 Registered: May-05 | Joseph and Jan, Both your mothers wear army boots. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1020 Registered: Mar-05 | lmao!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5305 Registered: May-04 | Awwww, your mother smokes Camels!!! |
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nout Unregistered guest | I just want to tell you guys what fun it is to read this thread, I feel it is wrong NOT to post a message, it makes me feel like spying on you guys...I am not a v0yeur, therefore my reply To answer the question what qualities are important for me in a stereo-set: (in random order) A warm bed or cold shower A reality check or escapism Emotion (obvious) A pat on the shoulder (life isn't that bad) Insight (when playing Boulez' Explosant-Fixe for instance Holst's Planets? I like Karajan's 1981 recording a lot, but Dutoits record http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000AFQQ is the probably the best one I ever heard. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 435 Registered: May-05 | nout, Normally, we would just ignore you since you come in on post number 888 and probably read no more than the 500 previous posts to get acclimated. But, since you were kind enough to add another thought on Holst, you're forgiven. Welcome to the nuthouse AND the nuts are out and running it, as my papa used to say. (No Jan, this has nothing to do with you typing "nekked.") Also, Mr. Vigne, my mother smoked Salems. She may have once smoked a Camel, BUT, those were my father's preferred brand, along with Pall Mall filters with the filters broken off. (Yeah, he also inhaled cigars which I suspect assisted in leading to his untimely and early death from lung cancer, but that's another story.) Now, you know why I'm such a screwed up boy. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1024 Registered: Mar-05 | Boy o boy are you screwed up! I have some new tubes (power) on the way and will be able to give more strange words to describe what pleases my ears soon. Just got done trying out some NOS pre tubes and they sounded really nice, very very subtle change from decent russian new tubes. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5312 Registered: May-04 | I would guess not a subtle change in pricing. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 439 Registered: May-05 | Thank you Joseph, I resemble that remark. And, I'm happy that you're happy with new tubes and we'll wait for a report in the amp section or somewhere. Let us know, unless you can figure out a way to sneak it into this thread. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 440 Registered: May-05 | BTW, I hope I didn't scare Margie off. After all, I did apologize and all. Or worse yet, I hope she isn't running away with the Lings, even though I suspect that could make beautiful music together. :-) (OK, how do you make the little happy faces in the text, anyway?) |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 17 Registered: Aug-05 | Scared off... I've been laughing myself silly!! Dave...John...quid pro quo. It's time for you two to pony up. Jan had the courage to uh.. expose himself. I gave a hint. It's your turn. I don't have the Lings yet. Jan could you email me with shipping info? quilleran@sbcglobal.net and a recipe...? |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1093 Registered: May-05 | To all Not sure if you are "John Barry" listeners, as there is a nice track playing on Classic FM, its got a real mood setting like his film score tracks, the sweeping flow and tantalizing, like the wondrous universal sound that I have come to expect from "John Barry" timeless.....man I'm chilled. The music was performed by the "ECO" "English Chamber Orchestra." Click on to listen to classic fm day and night and relax....with classic fm the smooth classics. http://www.classicfm.com/index.cfm?nodeId=35&sw=1024 Ashley |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 811 Registered: Sep-04 | Anyone heard Holst's Hammersmith? Very nice indeed. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1111 Registered: May-05 | Frank, No? Is he on classic fm a lot? Ashley |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 813 Registered: Sep-04 | Not sure. Hammersmith doesn't get airtime like The Planets does, but it's a good piece. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1115 Registered: May-05 | Frank, I noticed when I was out shopping at "HMV" in Bournemouth they had the "The Planets" for around £5.99. And reading the back cover noticed it was also available in Dolby 5.1 so I'll go back as soon an ask if they can order the other version, don't worry I didn't buy the version I saw in "HMV" has I all ready have two versions of it in stereo only, and a "dts" demo version of "Mars the Bringer of War." Rock me Holst.... Ashley |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 452 Registered: May-05 | Andy/Ashley, We're going to have to get understand your sexu@lity at some point, although as Scarlet said: "Ashley my darling . . . " so maybe not. Anyway, glad you're back Margie and I generally wear clothes when typing on this site. In fact, I would say I always wear clothes when typing on this site. So, not too much going on with me. I'm afraid, I'm boring. So, Andy, let me know what you hear when you get "The Planet" in 5.1. If that's a decent recording, I would be very interested in it. But, I'm buying my old 1978 version for sentimentality sake anyway. HEY, WE HIT 900 POSTS, party at Jan's place. LOL |
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