Speaker cable/wire
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paulc944 Unregistered guest | What speaker wire or cable are people using? On what speaker amp are you using? Is there a decent speaker wire with audible improvement?Without spending hundreds of dollars? I am using monster cable(15 year old)on kef 104 and Yamaha m65 amp.What would be an upgrade for this setup? |
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Bronze Member Username: PbdrPost Number: 68 Registered: Apr-05 | There are many opinions on speaker cable. Ranging form those that claim a deffinate benefit from high end, expensive cable, to those that use standard electrical wire that costs 20 cents a foot. Personally, I tend to side with the latter, the cable carries a current and the most importantr thing is to have cable capable of carrying that current. That being said, I mainly use cable I got for $20 bucks for 50 feet at the local radio shack. I like it because it is flexile, tends to be inconspicuaous, and is marked with positive and negative (I also bought it before I really read up on cable and got "pulled in" by the advertising). If I do any serious re-wiring to speakers I will probably go with electically wire of the correct gauge. Here is a link discussing this and showing what gauge to use per length: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#introduction Hope this helps. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6663 Registered: May-04 | After reading your question, I feel you're missing the point of speaker cables and the role they play in a system. Without wishing to open yet another can of red wrigglers, speaker cables can make or break a system. Or, they can be of little consequence to the final outcome of the system's sound quality. In the most specific manner, the speaker cable forms the interface between your amplifier and speakers and so it is important for us to know what those two components are before we can make any recommendations. However, the speaker cable you choose is only a small portion of the entire system and without knowing what the entire system amounts to and why you wish to change cables, there is not much to be said other than cables can make a difference. My point is twofold. 1) If you are changing cables just because you're curious about whether cables will alter the sound of your system in some positive way, you are probably best off just sticking with the Monster you now have assuming, of course, it is in good condition and the contact areas provide good quality connections. If the cable is damaged in any way (Monster often discolors from oxidation inside the dielectric jacket) or the ends are frayed or oxidize, this could be a reason to explore a new cable purchase. If you are headed toward a new set of cables, I would suggest you research what is available and have a clear idea what you expect as results (better defintion, blacker silence between notes, quieter backgrounds, etc.) once you place new cables in the circuit between the amplifier and speakers. It is this circuit of amplifier-cable-speaker-cable-amplifier which will affect the sound quality you hear; and it is this circuit you should pay the most attention to when buying new cables. Disregard epithets on the manufacturers' web site attesting to "astounding detail", "jaw dropping transparency" and "an immediate improvement over my old cables". I can assure you just about every cable manufacturer has the same type of comments on their web site from new owners totally committed to the purchase they have just made. And, unless you own the exact components the writer owns and listen for the same qualities in music, you may react quite differently to the cables they so dearly love. Since you've not stated a price range for this potential purchase, I will assume you wish to invest not much more than what the Monster Cables cost fifteen years ago. There are two routes to take in this progression to, hopefully, a better sounding system. First, read a few comparative reviews between budget cables. Be aware there aren't many such write ups to be found. Reviewing budget cables involves reviewing budget equipment which is not considered "s-e-x-y" among the readers of any audio magazine. There are some fairly clear favorites among the lower priced cable sets. If you can find these cables to audition, then you have the first possible path laid out before you. There are some dealers who sell used cables, if you wish to explore that route. (www.usedcable.com) Of course, never commit to an outright purchase without a return policy should the cables not work in your system. Secondly, the current thinking in many audio circles is for someone in your (assumed) price range to ignore all the gobble-de-gook about skin effect and the mumbo jumbo regarding break through technology. Concentrate instead on getting good quality metal put into a high quality construction. For it is the construction of the cable which will most determine just how the cable fits into your system. Pay attention to parallel runs of cable, as in flat wire, vs. twisted pairs. Construction of the cable will determine the impedance, inductance and capacitance of the cable. These are what affect your system's performance more than "skin effect". To this end some very inexpensive (relative to the big guys toys) cables are available for the person wishing to experiment with cables. The Home Depot 12-16 AWG extension cables are popular choices which represent good quality copper constructed in a sensible package for most budget to mid-fi systems. Belden cables, long a standard among the professional audio community, are available as a not much more expensive alternative to the HD extension cords. Once again, with Belden you are getting high quality parts put together in a common sense fashion. My second point in buying cables is to understand how they fit into a system's performance. As I stated, you should have a reasonable idea what you expect from the system and why you are trying a new component rather than just changing for the sake of changing. With that in mind, and again assuming the Monster Cable you now own is in good condition, a speaker cable change might not be the most productive way to spend your money right now. Possibly a new source might work to your advantage more than cables, or even interconnects. Most cable buyers will rightly assume interconnects are the wiser purchase rather than speaker cables. While you needn't spend a fortune on interconnects, there is usually little rationale for upgrading the speaker cables while still using the give away interconnects that came with your CD player. This is merely dealing with the lower level (in terms of voltage) signals which can be damaged more easily in the transfer from one component to the mext. All in all, upgrading speaker cables should be part of a well thought out upgrade path and not just a curiosity about a relatively inexpensive way to change your system's sound. If you haven't listened to what is available in components for a few years, you might want to visit a reputable audio shop and spend sometime on a Wednesday afternoon when the store is quiet, listening and discussing how to make the most positive upgrade to your current gear. Ask for the possibility of auditioning new components in your system before you commit to a purchase. And, most of all, have an idea why you want to change other than just to change. www.markertek.com |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 381 Registered: Feb-05 | I myself use Canare 4s8 from www.markertek.com with outstanding results. It is dirt cheap, and performs VERY well. |
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Unregistered guest | My main reson to look at cables is mine are frayed and discolored and 15+ years old.I am looking for a pair approx 10 feet in length around $50.I could be persuaded to spend a bit more if I feel its worth the investment.I have upgraded all the interconnects last year(I dont remember the name of them but they were step up from monster)I would like something better than home depot wire.The original post list the equipment.(Yamaha seperates anf kef 104.2)I have not found much info regarding spaker wire,and would like to here from others also. This will help get an idea of what products are currently available.Then I can research from there. Gavin, How do you wire up Canare 4s8 4 wire?Do you biwire?Mine is not biwire. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 13 Registered: Apr-05 | Paul6, Before you dismiss the Home Depot as a source for your new speaker cable, I posted my experience with using Home Depot Extension Cord to build up a pair of speaker cables for my system. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/176838.html There is a link in that post to another forum where many are reporting good results, even compared to very expensive specialty speaker cables. I also have old 12 guage Monster Cables and Radio Shack "Oxygen Free Copper" cables that never performed much better than 18 guage zip cord. These Home Depot cables are in a different class. The "HD-14" cables (Home Depot 14 guage) refer to a specific extension cord product from the Home Depot stores with specific instructions for construction. The performance characteristics that I'm reporting may not extend to other extension cord products or speaker wire you might find at Home Depot. It appears that they are kind of a happy accident that they work well as a speaker cable. Also, Jan has posted very reasonable advice for you here, as he has in other threads. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 465 Registered: Dec-04 | Look, its a simple conductor. Alchemy aside, reasonable speaker wire will share the conductivity value in the copper used(remember decent). Cheapo stuff is recycled, but so are some of the higher priced brands, I need a sample of a wire vendor claiming virgin copper, twice smelted. Even the smelting to seperate various grades and specific gravities of smelt involve adding various potions, including germanium and arsenic, both semi conductors. Antimony is added for strength, tin for rigidity and so on, however. If you measure resistnce and voltage drop od a wire from a to b, you can ecpect similar results IF the conductor is of an appropriate size. There is no polarity. They do not run in. Its a frigin wire! If minimum standards are adhered to, and bear in mind I say standards(no coat hanger), its going to be fine, cheap or not. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 14 Registered: Apr-05 | Nuck, My NAD C372 came with jumpers between the Pre-Out and Amp-In jacks that looked a lot like coat hangers. I replaced them with some Audioquest jumpers and it helped a lot. :-) As I said in the other post, I didn't test the polarity, but I'm willing to give it a try. Truthfully, I don't expect to hear any difference. It may well be that there is no change in the electrical characteristics of components over time. The "burn-in" may very well be my own ears accomodating to the sound of a new component. But, for whatever reason, my experience is that over a period of several hours to a couple of days a change occurs where the sound smooths out and becomes more listenable. "They're friggin' wires!" Yeah, and these "HD-14" speaker cables are friggin' cheap wires! |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 468 Registered: Dec-04 | ctanaka..what extraordinary forces did you apply to the wires to change their mechanical or chemical properties. Did you exert great mechanical forces upon them to establish a new elastic limit. sorry i have no q mark on the keyboard BTW. Draw the material past its limit and establish face center cubic properties. Run the material to critical temperature and anneal, or other wise treat the material. These materials do not change their characteristics on a whim, it takes engineered, highly contained processes to change the structure of materials, regardles of mass of material, to achieve a desired end result. Not wanting to sound all heavy, Im not all that smart, just payed attention in high school( no more except for a coupla books). Now I do agree aligning semiconductors is quite possible and easily done under controlled processes, but, darn a speaker wire aint one of those. I aint buying it. I have visited missouri. Lemme have it, folks. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6670 Registered: May-04 | Paul..... Apparently the gravity of my sentiments didn't sink in with you. No problem. Unfortunately, even if you can be persuaded to splurge and go all the way to $52.50, you are not going to find audio Nirvana with new speaker cables. Stick with basic cable. The HD extension cords are very good for the amount of money you wish to spend. If you just must spend all that $50 bill, you can get the Black and Decker version for $49.95. I would suggest you not scoff until you have at least done some reading on the topic. And, actually, you did not list "Yamaha separates" in your original post. You listed a Yamaha M-65 power amp and you KEF speakers. But, never mind, I don't think you understand my point. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 15 Registered: Apr-05 | Nuck, No, none of the above. Just cut 'em up and slapped them in my system. Worked suprisingly well for me. Even though it's cheap you don't have to buy it. And hey, what are you saying about Missouri!? My girlfreind's mother is from Missouri. |
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Bronze Member Username: 2morexExmore, Virginia USA Post Number: 11 Registered: Nov-05 | I usually agree with nuck, but I believe I hear differences in various cabling, maybe it's voodoo brought on by the funds leaving my pocket that influences my ears, I am not sure. But I never go back to the lesser costing ones! Just as an example: I have never liked anything from audioquest or monster cable, do I have an unknown bias against these? maybe so. Should I use your lamp cord? |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 469 Registered: Dec-04 | Its not MY lamp cord, I was dealing with decent cable only. I said that twice, so as not to incite a spate of comments suggesting lamp cord or lawn mower extension cord. haha. However common lamp cord is high in germanium to allow high voltage while self protecting against high curent for obvious reasons. I would consider decent wire monster(or equivelant when new) or better. And why the heck would anybody agree with me. Geez Laweez.I just toss em out there. Cheers. |
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Bronze Member Username: PbdrPost Number: 69 Registered: Apr-05 | Actually, the article in the link I posted above brings resistence as being the main factor in cable performance. Basically, according to this, as long as the cable has nominal resistence of no more than 4% of the speaker resistence (4 ohm, 8 ohm, etc.) it should work fine. Cable longer than 50 feet might have other problems. ctanaka, maybe the cord you found has a nice low resistence... |
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Bronze Member Username: 2morexExmore, Virginia USA Post Number: 12 Registered: Nov-05 | I heard that if you braid lawn mower extention cords in a double helix it would bring new life to any system. Watson - Crick Audio is doing this with great success, only $98/ft. Hell, nuck, we could probably sell these to audiophiles; some reviewer would hear some significant difference, publish it, and they would take off like rockets! What ya think? Oh, I was in Missouri when the King died, hot as hell. Don't go there! |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 478 Registered: Dec-04 | Kimber twisted wire will shut down my Rotel amp under low impedence, due to the increase of emi between high and low frequency crosstalk, perhaps. The guy who traded it in was in the shop when I was there, worked fine in the store with flat wire, but not at home with the twisted, then they looked it up... who knew. The mower wire however, may be a marketing opportunity. We need a name... A CUT ABOVE perhaps. Lots of time in Memphis last summer, in a frozen food factory. My pneumonia is better now, thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: 2morexExmore, Virginia USA Post Number: 13 Registered: Nov-05 | Long live the King, bless his soul. "Cool" name for our cable, we won't make any warranty claims. It's too esoteric. Hey, maybe we can freeze it for several weeks and get at least $25 more a ft! We're on to something! |
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Silver Member Username: Fps_deanWilliamstown, MA USA Post Number: 135 Registered: Oct-05 | I just use fat copper wire. As long as the resistance of the wire is lower than that outputting to the speakers, you will not lose anything from your wire. You can run 12 gauge up to about 30 feet and the resistance will be at 4 ohms or 50 feet at 8 ohms. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 483 Registered: Dec-04 | Geez, RD, dean is on to us! Its a frigin wire! Decent or better. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 16 Registered: Apr-05 | Peter, I'm pretty sure the resistence is low. The cables I made are only 8 ft. long and they test as 0 ohms on my Rat Shack DMM. Granted, I do not know how accurate my meter is as I only use it occasionally and I have never had it calibrated other than to compare it to resistors with known values and to 0 by shorting the test probes. I have not tested the capacitance or the inductance of these cables, but I believe others have. I'll take a look around. An interesting note about the cables is that they are constructed rather different from zip cord or 2 conductor lamp cord. There are 3 individually insulated conductors inside a thicker outer insulator. The 3 conductors have a shallow helical twist to them inside the outer insulator, maybe between 1 and 2 twists per foot. The instructions I found on the net for constructing these cables specifically say to use only two of the conductors for the +/- speaker signal and leave the other conductor unconnected. What effect any of this has regarding sound quality I do not know. I have been comparing this "HD-14" speaker cable directly to Kimber Kable 8TC and I am very impressed with the sound quality in my system. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 485 Registered: Dec-04 | ctanaka, the other is likely a shield by design, or by sale. To use it as a shield, ground the end at the source and leave the other open ended. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 17 Registered: Apr-05 | Nuck, Well, since the cable was originally a grounded AC extension cord the extra wire was for the ground wire. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try what you suggest though. I have heard of some interconnect cables deliberately designed as you describe. |
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Bronze Member Username: 2morexExmore, Virginia USA Post Number: 14 Registered: Nov-05 | NUCK, did he say helical twist? Is our secret out? The ixos gamma cables are made similar to ctanka's. I thought the third wire was floss, never thought that one could ground with it, clever. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 18 Registered: Apr-05 | RD, Nuck, You guys are gonna have a field day with the other projects I have planned: Speaker cables and interconnects made up from Cat 5 network cable. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 486 Registered: Dec-04 | ctanaka, you got me there. Slight helical twist...right. Caught me nappinghttp://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tultw.com/bios/foghornpic.gif&i mgrefurl=http://www.tultw.com/bios/foghorn.htm&h=292&w=244&sz=13&tbnid=oDOEOpcma lAJ:&tbnh=111&tbnw=92&hl=en&start=21&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfoghorn%26start%3D20%26s vnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN |
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Bronze Member Username: 2morexExmore, Virginia USA Post Number: 15 Registered: Nov-05 | Seriously, hasn't someone tried CAT5? Audioholics, are someone? I remember reading it somewhere. It was in the same article with helixed home depot wire, etc. I do not think that they liked it? But Nuck and I will be listening. As the King would say, "we're just joshing ya". Isn't this a great hobby! Good luck. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 488 Registered: Dec-04 | Thank you, thank ya very much! |
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Silver Member Username: Fps_deanWilliamstown, MA USA Post Number: 140 Registered: Oct-05 | Nuck - right on. The reason I use 12 gauge is simply that as long as your equipment will take 12 gauge wire (some wont), it is hardly any more expensive than 14 or 16 gauge wire and it's just a good way to be sure that you will not lose anything if you have to extend your wires a little bit further. Put it this way - if a machine cannot tell the difference, neither can you, or your dog or your cat with more sensitive ears.  |
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Silver Member Username: Fps_deanWilliamstown, MA USA Post Number: 141 Registered: Oct-05 | Oh and Paul - I get my 12 gauge copper wire from www.cambridgesoundworks.com you can get a 50 or 100 foot spool for fairly cheap. You can get it wherever though and it should be cheap. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 492 Registered: Dec-04 | err...anybody else notice how Paul started the thread and then got drowned(or backed) out. Man we must be annoying! Like my wife feels when we visit MY family. Doh! |
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Silver Member Username: Fps_deanWilliamstown, MA USA Post Number: 148 Registered: Oct-05 | ^^ haha |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 19 Registered: Apr-05 | Paul, If you are still out there, sincere aplolgies for hijacking your thread. The thing is, at the budget you are looking at, there really is a limited choice in what you will find in new, store bought speaker cables. What you do find likely will not be that different from anything else. You could look on Audiogon, where if you purchase something and find that you don't like it, you can often re-sell it for about what you bought it for. If you buy something new, then try to sell on Audiogon you'll take a bigger hit. Another choice is DIY as I have, then you're on your own to experiment. And you can see by this very thread what can happen if you try to discuss your Frankenstein in an audio forum. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 20 Registered: Apr-05 | Elvis has left the building... |
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