Opinions and answers needed: 2.1 system for $2500 or less
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Ben123456 Unregistered guest | I want to do some shopping. I'm pretty new at this. If you would like, please help me assemble the following goal! Goal: assemble a basic 2.1 system for 70/30 music/movies. Surround speakers and nice TV come later; i dont want to buy those right now. i will need to purchase a receiver, nice L/R speakers, a sub, and of course good cables. let's say i want to spend $2000-$2500 for these things. also, consideration for size/carpeting: i'll be moving into a 1000-1200 s.f. apartment next july, prob for at least 2 years there, not sure on exact living room size, but pretty standard i imagine, and carpeted throughout too. Wants: 1) to spend about $500 for the receiver 2) Sunfire True Subwoofer Super Junior. I'm pretty much set on buying this, i've heard this in stores and in a buddy's house several times, and i like the construction quality and amount of bass it puts out relative to its 9" size. so this will probably end up being $600-$800, depending on how good of a deal i can find. 3) Everything else is unknown, i'm open to all ideas. Questions: i have many, so feel free to answer one, or all. i appreciate any help and i categorized them below into the diff purchase categories. A) Speaker-related i) Like wine, i hear that more expensive speakers are not *always* better. Do you disagree that I should buy from a place that has a 30 day policy or whatever so I can test out of they sound good in my own place? Or do you think that if i spend $700-1000 for a pair of 3-way floorstandings they should pretty good no matter where they are placed? ii.) Is open-box/demo a bad thing for speakers? (assuming no audible or visible damage) Do speakers have a particular half-life, how quickly do they degrade, if at all? (w/light-to-normal use) iii.) Floorstanding = best bet? Will I compromise a lot of sound quality by going with a well-made stand-mount speaker, even w/having the sunfire for filling in the missing bass blend? iv.) Brands: I hear a lot of good thinks about KEF, i know a guy around here and can get demo prices for maybe $1000 on the Q11, for example. I also thought Klipsch were decent too, my parents had a 5.1 sat system. Generally speaking, are there brands out there to avoid? Brands out there to pay a lil more attention to? Again, I'm probably looking to spend $1000 or less for both L/R, but I don't know how much of an issue price is w/speakers. Style is *kind of* important. e.g. one of the reasons i like the sunfire sub is b/c of its small footprint. B) Receiver-related i. Should $500 do it for a quality piece of equipment, in terms of my aforementioned goal? ii. best bet would be to buy an 04/05 model as opposed to an 05/06 so long as the technology hasnt changed much, in terms of saving $$$ ? iii. favorite brands out there? I'm looking at H/K, Denon, and Pioneer. should I avoid these? keep looking at these? any other brands? iv. what is going on with digital-output receivers nowadays. is this a fundamental shift that i should pay attention to? i understand the logic behind the converting of signals a-to-d and vice versa, and its impact on quality, but should i get these "digital" receivers? C) Subwoofer-related i. anyone want to tell me why i should *not* get the sunfire super junior? Any better 10" models in that price range? ii. in other words, am i right in thinking that i should purchase this? D) Cable-related i. high quality cable is obviously good for preventing sound loss and avoiding noise. monster obviously is very good, but also expensive. does monster have rival brands from whom you eek out a little bit more value in the purchase? i dont plan on soldering my own cable, either.... Again, I'm new to this, and any help to the above questions would be greatly appreciated. hopefully it will also stir up some interesting discussion/debate among everyone and their opinions on the ideal way to assemble a great 2.1 system for $2500 or less. -- Regards, Ben |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3022 Registered: Mar-05 | $2500 for a 2.1 system...nice! Don't know about the Sunfire sub but if I had $600-800 I'd probably get the Hsu VTF-3. That's an Internet-direct brand, which offers immense quality-to-price ratios. hsuresearch.com Similarly, for maximum bang for your buck I'd look at Internet-direct Ascend Acoustics for your speakers. They carry Hsu subs and will give you a discount if you roll it into a bundle. They also have a nice "System Extender" deal where you can get a full-system bulk discount even if you only buy a few pieces at a time. Google them or go their website's Review Section. ascendacoustics.com Here's a great thread detailing one person's speaker-buying odyssey, he compared about a dozen different ones at various pricepoints: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=591331&page=1 It's worth the trouble because speakers make the biggest difference in your system's sound, with the power source a close second (cables are dead last by a long long shot). Receivers...yes, IMO the jaw-droppingly cheap $230 Panasonic sa-xr55 digital receiver is a major paradigm shift similar to that of going from LPs to CDs. Except that in this case the "CD" costs maybe 1/2 or 1/3 as much as the typical LP and sounds way the hell better. Read up on what all the buzz is about, if anything deserves the term "giant-killer" this is it! A couple of threads about this receiver on different forums: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/160136.html http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=1251&page=1&p p=10 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=530504 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=417894 A few caveats---very minor IMHO at this pricepoint: no pre-outs (would negate the whole point of a digital amp after all), subwoofer crossover only down to 80Hz, no room speaker EQ, primitive remote, no digital outputs, no OSD (onscreen display). Also may not be the best choice if you have lousy, overly bright speakers. Just as some folks still prefer LPs to CDs and tubes to solid state, you might decide to stick with an analog receiver, I'll make no guarantees. But it's definitely worth hearing it to make up your own mind, in any case...it's a whole different animal! Cables...always a popular source of controversy. I personally subscribe to the scientific school which is very skeptical of the claims that boutique cable manufactures make. Here's a short but very incisive article, "The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio" by Peter Aczmel that's worth reading even if you don't agree with everything he says: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/?id=5 This is a more systematic examination of the cable myths: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm Monster though is the Bose of cables: overpriced, overhyped mediocrity. |
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Ben123456 Unregistered guest | Edster -- thank you so much for the help. i will definitely look into the panasonic, and i agree w/the bose/monster cable analogy. have a good thanksgiving... hopefully some other opinions on the shopping spree will soon arrive at this thread too. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 757 Registered: May-05 | Ben - You've got a lot of stuff going on here. I think you're handling the process the right way by going step by step with your purchases rather than trying to get everything at once for your budget. The best advice I have is going to as many hi-fi shops as you reasonably can. Listen to stuff above an below your budget. You may find that an extra $100 towards the receiver can make all the difference, or you may find a great budget piece of the puzzle that'll help you stretch yor money further. The more gear you hear, the better you'll be able to tell what to expect for your money, and it'll help you figure out what you really want. You say you do 70/30 music/movies. What type of movies do you watch? If you watch a lot of action, war, sci-fi, etc movies with a lot of special effects, then HT is the way to go. If your movies don't have these big special effects, then you may be just as happy with a 2 channel set up. I mainly watch Seinfeld, Sports Center, Yankee games, and comedy movies. A few years ago I was looking into starting a HT system. An honest salesman saved me quite a few bucks. With what I watch, their is very little that a surround system would do for me that my 2 channel system doesn't. Receivers- I'd look into H/K, Pioneer Elite, and Yamaha RX series. Denon can sound good, but they tend to have trouble with low impedence speakers. Personally, I look into H/K refurbished gear from their EBay store or their own website. You can listen to H/K gear at Circuit City and shop around for better prices on the web. The refurbished gear is sold directly from H/K, so they carry a good warantee. As far as the digital receivers go, I think you have the wrong idea about them. The "digital" part of it is somewhat misleading. From what I understand, this has nothing to do with DAC's, decoding, etc. It has something to do with the way power is regulated, and nothing to do with digital source (ie CD DVD) sound quality. Some may say that digital amps sound better than analog amps, but that is a different arguement. Speakers- I personally think these make the biggest difference in a system. They certainly aren't the be all end all part though. For music, some people swear by sub/sat systems and others like towers. Their are advantages and drawbacks to each type. You're the only one who knows which sounds better. If you're going the HT route, a subwoofer is essential. If you're just interested in 2 channel, you may find that towers are better than sub/sat. Brands you may want to look into in addition to the ones you mentioned- PSB, Paradigm, B&W, NHT, Wharfdale, Definitive Technologies, and Jamo. Their are so many more out there, but these are just a start. Some speakers are better at music than HT and vise versa. Let your ears judge that. I don't have any experience with the internet direct speakers. They seem like a good deal on paper. They're a business turning a profit like everyone else. The 'cutting out the middle man to save you money' approach may have some truth to it, but most likely not as much as they would have you believe. If you're going this route, bring them into a store to compare them side by side with other speakers. Cables - Read the Roger Russell article Edster posted. I can't hear differences in adequate speaker wires. I use Acoustic Research speaker wire bought at Best Buy. What I like about them is they have a clear jacket so I can see if their is any corrosion in the wire. Monster makes comparible wire, but it is more expensive. I also can't hear differences in decent interconnects. I look for EMI and RFI shielding, gold plating on the tips (for corrosion), and a relatively heavy jacket. I use Monster Interlink 400. These meet all of my criteria. I could have probably found some that were a few dollars cheaper, but I can't complain too much. I also have an Acoustic Research interconnect from my tv to my amp. It also fit my criteria. This was cheaper than the Monster stuff. Check out audioholics.com for information on interconnects and speaker wire. Most of the people who hear differences in cables claim that the differences are subtle at best. I hope this helps. You may want to try smaller seperate posts in the future. People are more likely to answer one or two questions rather than 20. |
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Bronze Member Username: Dan_the_manLondon, Ontario Canada Post Number: 53 Registered: Jun-04 | these are hand down some of the most detailed speakers for critcal listening i have encountered if you are primarily looking for speakers that are solely used for music purposes. http://www.vonschweikert.com/vr1.html check them out if you have a chance if that is your need, i think you would be surprised of their sound compared to mose floorstanders. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1049 Registered: Sep-04 | Ben, If you want true musical performance why limit yourself to 2.1? Given that your split is 70/30, there seems little point to me in restricting yourself in this way. A system aimed primarily at music will usually turn out to be quite different to one aimed primarily at HT. For this reason I don't understand why you've specified 2.1, although this can be an effective solution. Also, if you really are listening to much more music than watching movies, you may wish to consider a purely 2-channel system. You will get a far more musical result this way and get stereo DVD replay for the movies you watch 30% of the time. This is what I do. You make no mention of the source player either. Although this is a digital medium, there is a reason why there are expensive DVD players and it's not just hype. Once again, if you are more interested in music than DVDs, a dedicated CD player is almost always going to beat a DVD player musically. I haven't heard any musical DVD players that are also cheap, so if you insist on one disc player then you should consider putting more cash into that too. For example, the Arcam DVD players are among the most musical DVD players I've had the pleasure of playing with. The higher end Denon DVD players sound reasonably good too if not as much to my taste. These items are all above $500. A good 2-channel amp such as a Naim Nait5i will put you back $1300 or so, and a half decent set of small speakers such as Dynaudio Audience 42 will put you back $500 plus stands. You'd be surprised at the results you get from using these high quality components. Should you decide on this course of action but still want to do surround sound later, get yourself a 2-channel amp with a unity gain or bypass feature. This allows the amp to be used as a slave power amp to your surround receiver. You keep using the direct analogue input to the 2-channel amp for music, but use the digital input on the surround receiver for DVDs to enjoy full surround sound. In the end it's a more expensive solution but it will be far more rewarding musically than your current plans. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummPost Number: 379 Registered: Feb-05 | here is my reccomendation, and I think you would LOVE it! speakers: MartinLogan Montage ($1400) subwoofer MartinLogan Dynamo ($600) Any decent reciever can drive the montage, as they are an easy load, and sound FABULOUS!!!! The Dynamo subwoofer is also outstanding, delivering bass impact that is tight and tuneful. It is much more musical than the Sunfire to my ears. Here are the links to the speakers and subwoofer. speakers: http://www.martinlogan.com/montage_speaker.html subwoofer: http://www.martinlogan.com/dynamo_speaker.html For speaker cable I use canare 4s8, available at www.markertek.com for cents, and it is as good as any audiophile cable that I have heard as of yet. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 463 Registered: Dec-04 | Gavin, you blew the budget! Ben if this your sub of choice, you can build around that, BUT, you may want to hold on a minute. Remember, an apartment, is tough to run a sub in. Just enough for you to enjoy may set the dog downstairs to barking, and lead to anew residence search. Might I suggest you look into high quality stereo, exclusively, and invest in a great source, followin Franks suggestions. Take a look at Tims Emmas. Bass to 30 hz, on paper, maybe a tab less in an apartment, where you can control the room less. Alegria is the brand. You can start thee, and look for Tim here. With a great stereo amp and nice cables and wires, still lots left over for the all important player of your choice. |
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Silver Member Username: Fps_deanWilliamstown, MA USA Post Number: 138 Registered: Oct-05 | I just helped my mom build a $1100 stereo system and that sounds great. For surround, to get something comprable you will have to spend more (like $2500), but $2500 will buy you a nice system these days. But $2500 spend on a stereo system will go a lot further, and personally I cannot stomach stereo music played in surround at all which is what I want a high quality sound system for. I really don't care if my movies have good sound or not - I don't watch much television including movies and my TV sucks anyway so it's like wearing a business suit and wearing your muddiest beat up pair of running shoes. I would suggest getting 14 gauge copper wire for speaker wire (or 12 if your speakers and amp will take it - if the wires will be short it won't matter though). The roger-russell article points out only a couple of many blind listening tests where nobody was able to tell the difference between sufficient cables (12 gauge copper wire, standard power cables) and overpriced cabling designed for the purpose of making a killing in profits by the manufacturers, but that also serves a purpose as to make the consumer feel better about their home audio system. As for brands - I find Denons to be a bit too muddy and lack low bass frequencies. My father has had a DRA-685 which I have got to hear a lot, and it just does not put out frequencies below 100Hz. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 489 Registered: Dec-04 | Alegria |
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Bronze Member Username: 2morexExmore, Virginia USA Post Number: 16 Registered: Nov-05 | Ben: why don't you look at the close out nht models with an sw10 or 12 sub if you desire new, SB2 for 250/pr and a sw 10 for @400. Nhts always sound pretty good, but can be brutally honest, which means you better have some pretty good source components, arcam, nad, etc. There is also a great used market with some extremely honest people. Used is the cheapest upgrade route by far, usually can get stuff at 1/2 price. |
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Silver Member Username: Fps_deanWilliamstown, MA USA Post Number: 139 Registered: Oct-05 | ^^ Aww crap I posted half that message in the wrong post... oops!  If you get a stereo receiver, you can get a NAD C352 or a Marantz PM7200 or a Yamaha for about $500 that will be money better spent than your cheaper A/V receiver. But that Top 10 Lies in Audio that Edster posted is something everyone should read. There are a few of them that I have known for a very long time... obviously the cable b.s. - if a machine cannot tell a difference, there is no way any human can and probably even a dog as well can't. I bought expensive Monster cables for my guitar amps - why? Simply because they are twice the diameter of your standard cables which always break, so they will hopefully last me five years instead of one. #2 is the tube lie - which is something I've known for a very long time. For a guitar amp, you have got to have tubes because they compress and distort when you push them to their limits in ways that solid state cannot re-produce, but for sound replication, solid state is far more accurate and with less harmonic distortion. Tubes are actually a fairly inaccurate way of reproducing a sound, but I do think that many tube amps still sound good regardless. And all amps that put out a roughly flat response from 20Hz to 20kHz will sound very close or the same. There are still some cheap amps that the measrements look like a jagged roller coaster, but once you get into something remotely decent they should be flat. Typically the highest wattage amps will have less drop off in the low frequencies through your speakers (unless you are using Klipsch or old Sansuis, they are so efficent that 5 watts is loud through them!). It takes a significant amount of volume increase or decrease for anyone to be able to hear a difference (I forget the number of dB). What you want to look for is something that is made with high quality parts like they did back in the 70s, that has the features you need. The burn in period is also a lie. And amp will never sound as good as when you first take it out of the box (unless you are to modify it later on). It may take your ears a while to get used to the sound and it will sound better, but it is not like a new car where it has to get the oil moving in the system, or some magic material needs to burn off the wires. If anything else burns off any wires in any of my amps again, I am going to be pissed (i have a 1969 Marshall Major and I burnt the plastic casing off some of the wires, and it is nearly impossible to find wires these days shielded for up to 2000 volts!). #9 is laughable. CDs are digital - either the CD player can read them or not. I find denatured alcohol is the best way to get a scratched CD to play, but it also eats away at the CD so I wouldn't recommend doing it even if you believe that bs. People call me a golden ear, but it's only because I can listen to a recording and identify the guitar and amp a guitarist used and most of the time correctly. I would be impressed if someone could get the pickups they used or the mics they recorded it with or how exactly they recorded it even (other than direct input or miked because that is very noticable, I mean like where the mics were placed). But I can only tell a real difference between the cheaper amps - once you get to a certain level, if you pay any more it should be to get more watts. What does this all mean? As I said, you really do not have to spend a lot to buy a killer system these days, especially when you are going stereo. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 491 Registered: Dec-04 | double watts for 3 db, 10 db is very noticeable, 5 db is noticeable if you listen. All amps do not sound the same. Wattage is used to go deaf, blow stuff up, and have fun. Dude I kid you not, with the apartment, your listening as you described, and upgradeability, you may wish to look at alegriaaudio.com, the Emmas, a nad seperate(natch) or another seperate of your choice, and a kick-but cdp. For the money you are talking, you can have a system to last forever. I kid you not. When you move, you can ad a sub, and a set of b speakers. You do NOT need a HT, 2.1 or 2.0 is fine, for your space and time. |
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Ben123456 Unregistered guest | Which size gauge for speaker wire, again avg size apartment and will be 8ohm impedance speakers...14, 16, higher?? The articles were helpful, I'm definitely going for generic. KEF Q11 (can get last year's model 40% off) versus Definitive Mythos 4? I like the style of the Mythos Four better but have heard that the bass driver can muddy up the bass sound? Head to head, I will see these in action soon...any initial thoughts on this matchup? Subs: Velodyne Minivee vs. Definitive Supercube III (the Mini one)? I may hold off on a sub now (apartment/neighbors consideration, as well as price), get a quality floorstanding 2.0 system. |
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