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Speaker Consumer Unregistered guest | I am either going to buy Ascend 170's or Paradigm Mini monitors v.4. I haven't auditioned the Ascends but I heard a comment that music from the Ascends sounds like its coming right from the speaker, very localized. I thought the paradigms sounded good and I didn't think I was hearing the sounds from the speaker directly. Klipsch RB-25s were very bad for that. Who has listened to both the Ascends and the Paradigms. Any help at all. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2905 Registered: Mar-05 | I've listened to the higher up Paradigm Monitor line, and would've bought the Monitor 5 if I had not bought the Ascends. Those Paradigms have better bass but harsher treble and less midrange. The Studio/Signature line is supposed to be equal or better than the Ascends depending on who you ask, unfortunately I haven't had a chance to hear them yet. In terms of "localization" the 170s and the Paradigms are about the same as most other conventional boxed speakers. Actually the speakers that I found the most localized were the Polk LSi speakers which are very pleasant at moderate volumes. Am not sure just how much "localization" actually bothers me, if at all, but I have to say that its opposite quality, wide dispersion, can be very appealing---this is what knocked me out with the Martin Logan electrostats. The Ascend 340s have more of this quality than the 170s, with their extra midwoof and wide-dispersion tweeter. |
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Speaker Consumer Unregistered guest | Is dispersion better with Paradigm or Ascend? I think dispersion is what I am looking for---the closing of your eyes and thinking your in a concert hall and being able to hear the instruments. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummPost Number: 350 Registered: Feb-05 | I myself am a very big paradigm fan. I love them! I don't think you will be able to go wrong, as they are designed to be wide dispersion all through the frequency range. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2212 Registered: Feb-05 | I have to agree with Gavin I have been using using Paradigm speakers for many years and enjoy them a great deal. The Mini is one of the best buys in Paradigms Monitor line. The Monitor 5 ain't no slouch either. Good luck and I'm sure you'll be happy with either speaker you choose. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2916 Registered: Mar-05 | SC, you might want to browse through this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=591331&page=5&p p=30 The original poster and a couple of other posters are comparing a bunch of different speakers, with the Paradigms and Ascends. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 75 Registered: Aug-05 | The Ascend 170s compare favorably with the Paradigm Studio 20s minus bottom end extension |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2222 Registered: Feb-05 | I doubt it. Compare for yourself. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 672 Registered: May-05 | Now Art, As you know, I compared the Studio 60s and I'd take those over my Ascend 170s but they're about 4 times the price/pair. The same guy had the 40s but I did not listen to them so I can't compare directly. But, the Studio 20s are 2 times the price of the Ascend 170s and they're not twice the speaker, I will guarantee you that. IMHO anyway. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 674 Registered: May-05 | Just to be fair. I have not A/Bed the Ascends and Studio 20s so I can't compare them directly. (Full disclosure and all that.) LOL |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 343 Registered: Dec-04 | Just like amplifier power, a doubling of power results in marginal returns. Could it be the same here, where doubling of cost make marginal returns? Are these paradigms and Ascends both equal impedence?( I don't know) And can Consumers amp operate at 4 ohms with competence? That may be the big difference in this comparo. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 344 Registered: Dec-04 | In looking, the mini-monitors seem to be a mis-match against the 170's. But notice, the Paradigms say'compatible with 8 ohm supplies. My guess is that they are like 4 ohms, as usual for Paradigm and PSb |
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Anonymous | "In looking, the mini-monitors seem to be a mis-match against the 170's. " How so? "My guess is that they are like 4 ohms, as usual for Paradigm and PSb" My guess is that they are like 2 ohms! |
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Anonymous | It would appear that their lower limit is 4.1 ohms. http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/PReviews/Paradigm/AER/AER_Mi ni.pdf |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 347 Registered: Dec-04 | So that makes a mismatch for the ascends, no? For a side by side comparo? |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 348 Registered: Dec-04 | So that makes a mismatch for the ascends, no? For a side by side comparo? And is consumers power source up to the task? |
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Anonymous | "So that makes a mismatch for the ascends, no?" The 170's impedance also dips to about 4 ohms in a couple spots. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170meas.html |
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Anonymous | From what I can gather, neither speaker looks like a real bear to drive. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 353 Registered: Dec-04 | The paradigms are wee, move up in size and 'regular' receivers will not work. I tried |
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Anonymous | ??? |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 354 Registered: Dec-04 | ??? The paradigms are Rated at 4ohms. May dip below 2 or so. No pioneers or technics need apply. Yamaha for the small ones. h/K to Rotel or Nad for larger models. Again, what power is consumer supplying to the Paradigms, before buying. |
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Anonymous | No no no. The Minimonitors measured with a 4.1 ohm lower limit. Upper limit was 29.5. No 2 ohm jobs here. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 355 Registered: Dec-04 | right then...could you link mr to those results? Of interest to a buddy in the market, wa slookind at PSb alpha's as well Thanks |
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Anonymous | LOL I did already. http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/PReviews/Paradigm/AER/AER_Mi ni.pdf |
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Anonymous | LOL I did already. http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/PReviews/Paradigm/AER/AER_Mi ni.pdf |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 356 Registered: Dec-04 | oops, I missed it.I stand technically corrected. Maybe a side by side is in order here. Thanks anon. aka (he who must not be named) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2936 Registered: Mar-05 | Kulish, You've probably heard this already, but for the original poster who might not have: comparing Studio 60s vs. Ascend 170s is like comparing a 300hp V-8 to a 130hp I-4...the Studio 20s are the correct model size/type to compare against. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1239 Registered: Jun-05 | I wanna hear someone on here compare to the Ascends either one of them to the Studio 20s,I would like to here the results of that contest.It seems from what people say that they are comparable,I know from experiance all the way back to the first Studio 20s they are tough to beat at that price and they have been tough to beat for the last 10 years,its only a few speakers I would take over them at their price,thats a tough assignment. |
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Anonymous | Studio 20 vrs Mini-Monitor vrs Ascend 170. Thats what I would want to see. If the Ascend was on par with the Mini-Monitor, I think that would be a very strong accomplishment given that it has been considered by more than a few to be a price/performance champ. For them to be as good as the Studio 20's, that would be a stretch for me, but so much the better for all of us. As far as comparing "favorably", that could mean a lot of things. The Mini-Monitor could probably be described as "comparing favorably" given its cost too. |
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Anonymous | Studio 20 vrs Mini-Monitor vrs Ascend 170. Thats what I would want to see. If the Ascend was on par with the Mini-Monitor, I think that would be a very strong accomplishment given that it has been considered by more than a few to be a price/performance champ. For them to be as good as the Studio 20's, that would be a stretch for me, but so much the better for all of us. As far as comparing "favorably", that could mean a lot of things. The Mini-Monitor could probably be described as "comparing favorably" given its cost too. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1241 Registered: Jun-05 | Thats a tough hill to climb the Studio 20s are way way way better than the Mini Monitor. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 675 Registered: May-05 | Ed, I agree and I thought I said that. I own the 170s, as you know but some may not. I went to Salt Lake City and met with a guy who carried the Paradigms from Studio 40s to 100s. He didn't have the 40s set up, yet but he had the 60s and 100s. I heard both. My sole comment was that I liked the sound of 60s better than the Ascends I own, straight up. However, the 60s are not in the 170s price range, voice range(?) and IMHO their practical comparison range. Moreover, I did not suggest that I was willing to pay $1288/pair vs. $328/pair to improve the sound of my system, not to mention almost double that for a comparable Paradigm center to my 340C. (That's about $3000 plus tax versus my 5 Ascends at about $1200, delivered to my door.) I like to think of my Ascends more like the Mazda Miata (T-Man - you can jump in here anytime and expand further on the marvels of the Miata), they may be small and not that expensive ti get into but they're pretty fun to drive and well worth the entry price. Finally Ed, as for the Studio 20s being the "right" comparison in Paradigm's line, I'm not sure about that at their price point, the Minimonitors are probably a closer fit price wise although I believe you're probably right performance wise but I haven't heard them so it's not fair for me to judge. The Studio 20s are $800/pair or over double the 170s. But then, we all know about "retail" and what you actually pay. For someone else's take on the Studio 20s, here ya go. Pretty dang impressive I might add - OK Art, where do I find these puppies? http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_studio20_v3.htm |
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Anonymous | "Thats a tough hill to climb the Studio 20s are way way way better than the Mini Monitor." Out of curiousity, in what aspects? Also, would you say a more casual listener like myself would notice as much of a difference as a seasoned audiophile? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2951 Registered: Mar-05 | > Finally Ed, as for the Studio 20s being the "right" comparison in Paradigm's line, Actually I meant the 20s were "right" to be compared with the 170s only within the Studio line, otherwise you're right the MM's are closer in price and from most accounts way behind in SQ. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2233 Registered: Feb-05 | Dave, there are so many Paradigm dealers in my area I can't even begin to tell you. Yesterday I was in Salem and visited "Hear No Evil", first time in the store. They carry Paradigm, B&W, Rotel, Krell, Marantz, Denon and much more. Unfortunately they have the "under 30 I don't believe in service" crew runnin the joint but it's just an example of the proliferation of audio stores here. Anytime there is a car stereo room in an audio store I know I'm in the wrong place. Point being, I know of 5 Paradigm dealers within an hrs drive of my house including 1 which is a 10 minute drive. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1247 Registered: Jun-05 | Any casual listner can tell the difference between the Studio 20s and the Mini Monitors Anon.The box coloration in the Monitor line will be noticed right away everthing sounds more detailed and like a more expensive speaker,yes its and 2 shoulders better thats how much of a audible difference it is.The Mini Monitors and the Monotor 5s are decent buys at their price,but can easily be bettered by something else at their price,and the rest of the Monitor series is junk and leaves a lot to be desired.The Studios are each of their price points are at the top of their class at all of their prices.Overall I think the Performance line is more bang for your buck than the Monitor line. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2953 Registered: Mar-05 | TW, can you spare $15 and do a home audition of the Ascend 170s? I would love to hear your assesment of it, positive or negative. This would give me (and probably many others here) a good idea of your tastes but also of many of the audio-lingo descriptions that you use. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1249 Registered: Jun-05 | Its not really about taste Eddie thats secondary,a speaker has to get the fundamentles right to stay in this house.And it takes longer than a short demo to find that out,thats why I have had so many speakers, I will never settle and say well thats good enough,especially if I know thier is still something to be desired.Being a dealer I feel its my duty to listen to as much gear as I can,I wouldnt any customer of mine to buy something I wouldnt.Maybe one day soon I will Eddie right now I have a couple things I have to get rid of,and finish up my Epos/Creek system,my boss thinks that the setup im bulding is better than any system we have $15,000 and under,we are even thinking about carrying Epos and Creek. |
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Silver Member Username: Rh1Post Number: 415 Registered: Jun-04 | Tawaun, I hate to jump in off subject but I noticed in another post you indicated you have the Diamond 9 series and I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding these speakers compared to the 8 series |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 688 Registered: May-05 | T-Man, Like Ed, I'd like your thoughts on the Ascends some time. Heck, I'd split the $15 return cost with Ed, if he's willing, for you to preview them for 30 days and give us your thoughts. BUT, no fair bad mouthing them solely because you're ticked off at Dave at Ascend, OK? We want a T-Man, fair and square, gotta be there listen and explanation of what you hear. I'd make the same offer to Art or Jan as well, but dang, it's hard to get Jan to recommend anything. Plus, I'd be worried that he'd decide that 36" off the floor, with some odd listening angle or placed on some odd thing that's only found in Texas is the absolutely only place that the speakers provide their best sound AND, as we all know, mine will never find themselves in any such position, thanks to the lovely wife. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1251 Registered: Jun-05 | The 9 series is more detailed and delicate with better layering of instruments,and better front to back panning of individual soloist and the chorus.Let me make something clear though,8.1 is a freak it has imediacey to their midrange that makes them a blast to listen to,and they are flat in bass,and foward in the midrange and very natural.The 9.1 is a better overall speaker than the 8.1 in refinement,with a slightly foward midbass,which is why I prefer the Epos els 3 which is very accurate in the midbass.The 9 series is a better overall line,but its not many more entertaining speakers than the 8.1s,they remind me a lot of the Green Mountain Callistos and the Quad Els 57s with lifelike midrange scale they can put a baby gran piano in your room with no sweat,and they have great timing to boot,certainlly a classic I'll never get rid of mine.One thing the 9.1s bring to the table along with slightly foward midbass,they go a lot lower than the 8.1s and the els 3s with real power and they increadibly detailed they rival far more expensive speakers in detail, increadible tweeter. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1252 Registered: Jun-05 | So David, Eddie who is sending their Ascends to me? |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1253 Registered: Jun-05 | And I wouldnt bad mouth them because of David at Ascend,I would never try to discredit his product the way he tried to discredit Tim as a person, im bigger than that.If they are good to my ears I will aplaud him for a great design,if they stink then I really look at him in the light of his darkside that he showed on our forum and to a guy who I know builds great speakers that we chat with everyday,and when I become a reviewer he will be on my T.O. list for more than 4 games. |
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Silver Member Username: Rh1Post Number: 417 Registered: Jun-04 | Tawaun, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the 8.1s verse 9.1s and I too will probably never get rid of my 8.3s and 8.1s. I mean, how could you for such a small price they are worth keeping. It's amazing to me that so much can be squeezed into such an inexpensive speaker. It's almost too good to be true and imho you would have to spend twice as much or more to get a sizeable improvement in sound. I sound like a spokesperson, I know, but hey there are 1000 people ready to critize something for everyone willing to praise something so the have a believer in me. I only wish they were more prevelant here in the US |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2967 Registered: Mar-05 | TW, if we sent you our Ascends you'd still have to pay return shipping to send them back, so why not order them directly from Ascend? Plus we'd have nothing to listen to for a couple of weeks...yeek! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 690 Registered: May-05 | T-Man - hey, what Ed said! On your comment above, I'm thinking that TO is going to be out for more than 4 games but that absolutely cracked me up. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1258 Registered: Jun-05 | I cant pay the money to buy them right now,Ill tell you what I'll send my babies the 8.1s to either one of you if you send me the AscendsI,d say thats fair,the 8.1s will astound you with their midrange,scale,and precence.That way youll have something of qaulity to listen to,and learn about a new sound. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 386 Registered: Dec-04 | Offer on the table, folks! Fish or cut bait! I can't wait for this. Mbwoowahhaha |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2975 Registered: Mar-05 | ugh Tawaun, I have heard the 8.1s, my friend Alex has them and I had the same strong negative reaction to them that Art had to the digital Panny. Now if you can send me your Epiphonys, that'd be a deal, yessssir! How 'bout it? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2980 Registered: Mar-05 | David, btw for whatever it's worth, here's one random anecdotal account of someone who compared the Ascend 340s to the Paradigm 40s, along with a whole bunch of other speakers (post #9): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6560140#post6560140 |
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tilt___ Unregistered guest | edster I am going to try the panny and ascend speakers, you have this setup too correct? I need either a 5.1 or a 7.1 system. any thoughts or comments for me? thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2985 Registered: Mar-05 | Yes I do, and it's a great match. Personally I'd just go 5.1 and put the savings from the cost of the extra 2 speakers into the best sub I could afford. |
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tilt_____ Unregistered guest | what is your ascend setup? My initial thoght is 2-340M, 340 center, 220 surrounds and rears (I may wait on rears) and either the stf2 or the vtf 2. I have a 21' by 13.5' room with a 90inch screen. screen is on short wall and can sit anywhere from 11 to 16 feet away from it. I will use the room 50 percent movies 40% games/tv and 10% music. what do you think? You say put more money to a better sub, do you think I need to go to level 3? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2986 Registered: Mar-05 | I have 340s across the front, and cheap Polk R20s for surrounds which would be crappy for fronts but are ok for surrounds. The only reason to get the HTM-200s is if you plan to mount them flush to a wall, otherwise I'd get the 170s for surrounds...IF you need them. My reasoning is that since the surrounds only do maybe 10% of the work on most movies (maybe 20% on something like "Lord of the Rings"), and my taste in movies is heavily dramas/comedies/foreign rather than wham-bam action flicks, to spend more on them would be a waste of money. Also I don't plan on doing SACD/DVD-A multichannel music which to me would be the only justification for getting good surrounds like the 170s. This is a fairly controversial position though, some people swear that quality matching surrounds make a huge difference even for HT. In a room as big as yours I would get the STF-3, or if you are really big into HT low low bass, look at the SVS PB-12. The Hsu doesn't go quite as deep but is said to be faster and tighter for music. |
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tilt____ Unregistered guest | i kindof need a walkway on one of the sides and the back wall so that is why i was thinking 220s (6.5 vs. 10 inchers) I am thinking about cutting a hole in the wall (but cant go throught the other side just in the wal) so my speaker is half in the cutout and half out, the 170s are ported so I think this would be bad for them. I will investigate the sub suggestions,this is a carpeted baxement room by the way. Have you tested these subs or the 220s or just making suggestions from research? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2987 Registered: Mar-05 | Mostly research. Have home auditioned the STF-2 not the 3, and the 170s but not the 200s. But for your app, yes the 200s would be a much better idea since they are not rear ported like the 170s. |
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tilt___ Unregistered guest | ok, thanks. One last thing do you still love the panny. I enjoy clear sound( less colored) dialoge, glass shatering, bullets wizzing through the air etc, and think the panny will be a good choice for me. My friend thinks I am a little crazy getting this reciever when I was looking at $600-$700 recievers. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2988 Registered: Mar-05 | Absolutely! I was listening to an HK 235 yesterday at Circuit City, first time in a very long while, and was struck at the inherent layer of hiss and hum which was audible within about 5 feet of the speakers at moderate volumes. The Onkyo 801 they had much less of that, but also sounded very hollow and lifeless in comparison to the HK. Both were pale shadows of the Panny, to my ears. Ho-hum, the joys of analog amplification...LOL! If you want to be sure though, after a few days of listening to the Panny, just AB it against one of those $600-700 receivers you were looking at. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2258 Registered: Feb-05 | Yeah, God forbid, who'd want a McIntosh or Audio Research amplifier. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 390 Registered: Dec-04 | I could SMELL that sarcasm, Aft. Thanks. Perfect. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1261 Registered: Jun-05 | Sorry Eddie the Epiphonys were bought by my dad,the day before I went and bought the Epos M12.2s.He wont even let me test drive them now,he is in soundstaging and imaging heaven right now,in otherwords he is in love again at the age of 51! |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 394 Registered: Dec-04 | TW, that is a beautiful thing. Has your pop always been an audiophile? Or something you brought to the party? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2990 Registered: Mar-05 | > Yeah, God forbid, who'd want a McIntosh or Audio Research amplifier. well I guess I could let you buy me one for sentimental reasons, Art. LOL In all seriousness though, my answer would be: who would want to PAY for one of those, even if the Panny did not exist? |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1262 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah I was born into fortunatelly,I grew up listining to Ohm Walsh 2s,Benjamin Mirachord turntable with a heavilly modified tonearm with a Shure cartridge,Teac reel to reel, 2 ran in mono Carver MA 201 power amps,Pioneer Quad preamp,and a Nachamechi Tape deck.Yeah those were the good ole days,and all his friends systems to,I had a audio store at my disposal when I came out my out shute. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 395 Registered: Dec-04 | Edster, I would not want to pay, but would if I were so inclined, or well heeled, I would. I pay plenty now, for the quality I expect, and receive. Cheap is cheap, whether in product, or attitude. Think'budget minded', and be happy with your choice. The Panny's of the world will always be around, Barnun and Bailey, Dog and Pony show, but, guess what? People stick with proven and tested products and theories because they work, and are workable. 'If you always do waht you always did You will always get what you always got' |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 396 Registered: Dec-04 | TAW, sorry to hear that, HAHA. I just read your profile. If I get close to Dayton, I am going to check up on your store,and yourself. Cinci is usually the closest I get, and not a lot of spare time, but I will make the time. Give your dad a pat on the back(my dad's passed), and keep upthe posts, much appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1263 Registered: Jun-05 | Now thats a guy who knows his audio,you deffinatelly get what you pay for in audio especially on the Electronics side of things.Nuck I have to agree with you 100%. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2263 Registered: Feb-05 | "In all seriousness though, my answer would be: who would want to PAY for one of those, even if the Panny did not exist?" Me!!!!! I would love to but don't have the money or credit for it. Nuck, well said! |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1264 Registered: Jun-05 | Anytime Nuck! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2992 Registered: Mar-05 | now now, I have never disputed the fact that the Panny does not offer the build quality and features of more expensive receivers. My point is that for a lousy $230 it clearly outperformed a $600 Marantz and $1300 NAD separates---at least according to my ears. Of course I would expect, or HOPE, that a $15K McIntosh amp will wipe the floor with it. HOWEVER, the fact remains that a great many people who have listened to the Panny with an open mind, in direct comparison with analog receivers and even analog amps in the $400-3000 range, have found that they preferred the Panny or found the sound quality pretty much indistinguishable. These are not all financially-challenged folks like myself, but often people who own far more expensive gear, and who therefore are making their choices based on PERSONAL PREFERENCE, not dollars and cents. Now you can continue to prop yourselves up with these lazy cliches ("you get what you pay for" and "there's a sucker born every minute" or "this is just the fad of the moment") all you want...but in all my reading of these forums I have NEVER seen any other budget receiver, especially not a $230 one, that has drawn such massive adulation from owners of more expensive receivers like me. Furthermore, I have NEVER seen anyone claim that their Onkyo 502, Marantz 4500, or HK 135 is comparable and better than even an Onkyo 802, let alone Rotel and Krell separates. I sure as hell have NEVER heard of anyone choosing an HK 135 over a $2500 Rotel they already owned. HMMMM, so now tell me, gentlemen...just WHY is that? I know those cliches sure are comforting, but the facts is the facts: the Panny's technology and pricepoint represents a radical paradigm shift in audio. The audio establishment "elite" were also dissing CDs when those first came out, LOL. This knee-jerk resistance is hardly surprising---especially in the case of low-cost and high-quality digital amplification that frankly poses a dire threat to the economic well-being of the whole audio industry (and audio industry that is already being severely undercut by Internet sales) and the audio subculture spawned from its self-interests. Instead of making say $400 off a $800 receiver, now they're stuck with what, maybe $100 off a $230 receiver? If I owned an audio store I'd hate this goddamned Panny too, whether I liked its SQ or not! Hell, I'd be sh*tting my pants if the thing reaches anywhere near Ipod-levels of ubiquity. And geez, imagine how much more contempt the vinyl freaks would've heaped on the CD if the CD had cost say 1/3 as much as an LP at the time of its release, instead of costing over 2-3 times as much. LOL!!! Bottom line is that 10 years from now, the only people buying analog amps/receivers will be the same ones with the tube amps and turntables...a statistically MINUTE fraction of the consumer public. Sure, you can make the argument that people like Jan or Art or Tawaun who have had a lifetime's involvement and experience with audio and music, who are constantly searching and paying for what they consider to be the "ultimate" sound, will never go digital. I would actually agree with you, and I'd even say, "more power to them!" But so what? They represent what, maybe 5% of the audio consumers out there? Who cares? Bottom line is that the vast majority of audio consumers who hear something like the Panny against your typical massive, overpriced and fuzzy/hissy analog receiver costing several times more, will buy the Panny not only for the savings but---and I know this is the bitterest pill for you guys to swallow but here it is: because they honestly feel that IT SOUNDS BETTER. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1270 Registered: Jun-05 | See the problem Eddie your not just compaing it to HK A/V receivers,Onkyo,Yamaha,Denon,Marantz,even to the Nad and Rotel that fine but, your comparing it to the big boys like Bryston,Musical Fidelity,Macintosh,Mark Levinston,Krell,Naim,Classe,Simiamoon just to name a few even all intergratedamp companies like Creek,and Rega,come on thats insane,its no way a $230 Panny can compete with them and its highly unlikely that it can even compete with the other more expensive receivers, let alone high end amps,who ever beleives that is tricking their self and the people who buy into this Panny digital mumbo jumbo are getting tricked by other consumers who have already been tricked.Eddie I heard the high priced Halcros about a month ago they wernt that good,they certainly couldnt compete with a much cheaper Naim setup that ran circles around it and the Halcros costed $20,000 a pair just for the monoblocks which was super overpriced by the way and the biggest dissapointment I,ve ever incountered in highend amps,and thats supposed to be the ultimate digital amp.So what should make anyone beleive that a $230 Panny is the new high end savior at Bob Evans prices thats rediculous.Eddie To have a top sounding system you have to take your tent out of the Chain Stores first,before you can even think of having a decent sounding system.Hey if you pay a Dollar you get chips and if you pay 4 dollars for chips at the moveies then you got gyped all in one with the digital amps. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 424 Registered: Dec-04 | Eddie, oh Eddie. You are delusional. You are not of sound mind and body enough to write a will. You are not among th living. You may be among the un-dead of hearing. If i hear one more thread with you and budget minded thrusting poor, inpressionable noobs into this kief, I may blow a gasket! Y'all keep pushing this piece of crud tin box on anyone who is looking to get started, when PROVEN pieces are waiting for good homes. Your Panasonic lives on the island of unwanted toys(tis the season), and all your arm waving promotes only tired arms. If it walks like a duck, poops like a duck and quacks like a duck, It's probably foul. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2997 Registered: Mar-05 | Nuck, LOL, your attempts at colorful verbiage are poor cover for your inability to answer my very simple question: why has nobody else ever made the same sorts of outrageous claims about THEIR favorite cheapo receivers that I listed above, unlike the droves who have had such experiences with the Panny? Nuck, rather than resorting to Paul-like insults, why not try to stay on topic? Rather disappointing, I must say. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2998 Registered: Mar-05 | TW, You seem to have misunderstood me. Actually I would not personally make those claims about the Panny regarding those REALLY high-end and esoteric manufacturers that you listed...I was only citing the fact that a number of people on other forums who own such equipment have made such claims. Since I have never gone anywhere near a Bryston, Mark Levinson, or McIntosh amp, you can bet your britches I would not mention them. However, when it comes to the midfi analogs that you listed (Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, NAD) that I am familiar with, I feel quite confident that the Panny more than holds its own ASIDE from the price issue. There will always be that tiny 5% sliver of consumers who are willing to pay $15,000 for an amplifier (just like the 5% of wine drinkers who'd pay $1,000 a bottle), and I personally am very happy to let them oil the wheels of our economy any way they wish. If you notice, I generally do not recommend the Panny to people who post here asking for advice between that echelon of extreme high end gear that you have listed. I have neither the money nor the motivation to explore that stratosphere, so my focus is strictly on mid-fi and below, where the Panny has basically upended the whole industry's pricing structure. However, I will say this about those people who chose the Panny over their own high-end equipment (and yes it's a much smaller number than those who preferred the Panny over more expensive mid-fi receivers/amps)---there are only 2 possible conclusions to be made from their experience: 1. The Panny really is that good, to their ears. or 2. They never had any business buying a $2500 amp to begin with, if (as Art would probably say) the have leaden ears. Now #1 has been debated a million times over and over on forums like this, so I propose we move on to #2 which to me is the more interesting point anyways. TW, to be strictly honest, of all your customers who buy $2500 and up super-expensive gear---how many of them, percentage-wise, do you think REALLY heard a difference? What percentage of them would you guesstimate might've been equally happy with say a respectable midfi receiver like a Denon 3805 but decided to spend 5 times more just because: 1. They like to show off their money. 2. They like to pretend to others but ESPECIALLY to themselves that they are uber-sophisticated "audiophiles" 3. They are simply suckers and conformists who swallow the conventional wisdom that "you get what you pay for" even if their ears couldn't tell the difference. ******************** Now here's a personal integrity question for you, TW: let's say a well-to-do man comes into your shop, tells you he's looking to blow say $5000 for an amp. He thinks $5000 because that's what his friends tell him, or that's what he's gleaned from reading some audio magazines. So you take him around and let him listen to your stock, which starts at a $600 Marantz and goes up to oh, let's say a $15K Mac. It quickly becomes obvious in the first 10 minutes that this man can barely distinguish between a ffart and a flute, so being the honest professional that you are, you spend the next 90 minutes trying to show and explain to him all the finer nuances of music, and why that Marantz sounds like a $600 receiver not a $6000 one. It all goes in one ear and out the other though, and you quickly conclude this dude is completely hopeless and would be perfectly happy with a $600 Onkyo HTIB. Wouldn't you still show him your best $5000 amp anyways and give him a warm goodbye as he walks out the door after writing you the check? I wouldn't blame you at all if you let him buy the $5K amp, hey I probably would too. What I wonder is, how prevalent is this phenomenon in the audio world? Rare, or bread-and-butter? |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 430 Registered: Dec-04 | Thats it, gasket blown. I've only heard the unit in question once, and that was not in my own room. I seek to obtain a sample of the receiver, and shallreview it at my leisure. Yes Ed, that was a little much, wasn't it? Sorry, just getting all worked up. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2268 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm sorry Nuck I actually thought it was a nice little Panny Xmas ditty. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3000 Registered: Mar-05 | Very good, Nuck...I knew you were better than that. Was it you, who said he heard the Panny at a Circuit City through some Infinity Beta speakers? I was at one a few days ago, the setup was horrifyingly bad. The Beta 20s were sitting almost flush against a wall on a plastic shelf about six feet off the ground, so the tweeters were probably pointing about 3 feet above my head (in a standing position), were about 12 feet apart and squared to the room. Half of the floorstanders were also squared to the room and crammed so close together as to almost touch, with their front surfaces unaligned but randomly staggered. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2272 Registered: Feb-05 | Circuit City and Best Buy have such terrible audio rooms and setups that no matter what you buy there it must be an act of faith because it surely can't sound good. Regardless of what you audition, the Panny or Pioneer or whatever, it deserves a better audition than one can give it at the local CC and BB. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 434 Registered: Dec-04 | That wasn't me Edster, but may as well have been, given the awful setups in those stores(it is Future shop here, bought by cc) Dreadful, sheeeet the bose sounded better than any jbl they had. Pimple faced kids looking at me funny when I mention some of my modest gear. Ego booster, perhaps, but the happiest customer there is the one who leaves emty handed(i helped one fellow along today) |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 435 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks Art, even in my wildest moments, I seek a laff or 2 for someone, Anyone, My lovely wife will oblige if nobody else. Live for the humour, and laugh off all the rest. In stereo(or 5.1) New Christmas ideas coming up on GWNA. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2275 Registered: Feb-05 | "Ego booster, perhaps, but the happiest customer there is the one who leaves emty handed(i helped one fellow along today)" ROTFL !!!!!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1275 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie For one thing mistake #1 going to a BB or a CC,their always setup terrible,just like Art said they will make Wilsons sound like Bose.Which begs the question,why would anyone with any audio knowlege want to go audition something at a chain store? For one things its all HT,its never setup for 2 channel,they dont even have intergratedamps at chain stores,the only 2 channel receivers they sell their are Sherwoods or Pioneers,and they only have $100 CD players.#2 if some one is coming to me or any other Botique shop they know what they want and have some audio knowlege,if they didnt they would go to BB or CC.Their would be no need to try and sway them to something they dont want or cant afford,because coming to a Botique they have some knowlege about what they want,and dont want something average they want a audiphile grade system whether its $600 or $6000,and thats the very reason why their coming to see me,if they want Aerials,they can drive 20 minutes to Audiable Elegance if they want Paradigm they can drive 10 minutes to Ohio Valley,if they dont know what they want and dont follow audio they go to CC or BB,you get what im saying Eddie?that would pretty much answer your question,it should. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3011 Registered: Mar-05 | TW, so in all these years you've never had anyone walk into your store who didn't really know a thing about audio but came there just because he had a fat wad burning a hole in his wallet and his friends told him to there if he wants to get some *real* high-end gear? That's surprising. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3012 Registered: Mar-05 | I mean, are you saying that your store ONLY gets educated customers? Man, that's pretty darn amazing in ANY retail area. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1277 Registered: Jun-05 | Not to that extent Eddie,you are just as knowlegable as most of them,but the difference being you still think bargain first sound second,they dont,they know CC or BB wont get them audiophile sound,but you still think they can. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3014 Registered: Mar-05 | Actually no, I don't think CC or BB will get me "audiophile sound" at all---have never even *aspired* to "audiophile sound" mainly because I, unlike Art, am simply unwilling to go into debt to pay for it. No, all I want is the best "mid-fi" sound quality I can afford, which I once thought I was getting with my NAD separates...until the man in brown brought me that little 10lb. BEAST! lol |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 692 Registered: May-05 | T-Man, Way back when, you suggested I send you a pair of my Ascend 170s to audition and review in exchange for your 8.1s. That's a audition trade, I'm willing to do, I guess. Since I've got 4 of them around, I can do that and still have two Ascends up front. So, let's pick a time after Thanksgiving and I'll send you mine if you send me yours, OK? Of course, I can't even begin to audition them and report with your expertise but I'm willing to do it just to hear something different here in the audio desert and you've got me curious with several of your reviews of these speakers and I need to hear different things and see what I like as I continue down this road. I'm going to listen the Epos sometime when I get to Seattle, I've read a couple of reviews and I think I'll like their sound, too. Plus, I should be be playing around with the 2 channel set-up by then so I won't be missing a couple of the Ascends for a couple of weeks and I really want your opinion on the Ascends. So, let's discuss further. Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2281 Registered: Feb-05 | "mid-fi" Not by any definition I've seen. My system is mid-fi at best, yours well...... I see that you will take one comment I made about debt and hammer away at it. There are many folks who have far superior systems to mine and are not in debt. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3017 Registered: Mar-05 | > Not by any definition I've seen. My system is mid-fi at best, yours well...... Not by TW's very high end perspective, no. I would consider "mid-fi" anything up to $2K-3K for analog separates, and anything above $3K to be RAVING INSANITY. Let me put it this way: I'm sure if I owned or spent all my time around Rolls Royces, Bentleys, and Lambourghinis, I'd probably scoff at a Mazda Miata or a Toyota Camry as cheap little jalopys. > I see that you will take one comment I made about debt and hammer away at it. There are many folks who have far superior systems to mine and are not in debt. No, I don't mean "debt" literally, just any sort of financial strain...I could technically afford $7K for a whole system without going into debt but aside from marital discord, I have no desire to take such a sizable chunk out of my bank account for AUDIO. I could spend $3400 on the MLs I heard last week and loved, but would frankly feel stupid doing so. Guess it all comes down to how far one is really willing to go and what level of quality one is happy with. I was very happy with my NAD separates and now am even happier with the Panny. I love listening to music, but since it is only one of several personal interests rather than being my PRIMARY interest, I simply don't feel the need to buy a champagne system when beer makes me plenty happy. Especially if the beer and champagne to my tastebuds might not be THAT far apart. My experience listening to $4000 Focal floorstanders at Tweeter running off $30K worth of Krell gear was a puzzled, "This is it? $34,000 worth of gear gets me THIS? Ha!" Hope to go 2 other small local shops to listen to their high end gear, but with the exception of the Magnepans I doubt my reaction will be all that much different. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummPost Number: 371 Registered: Feb-05 | Eddie... If you like the sound of the maggies, you need to check out the ML mosaic and montage. They use similar technology, but have more bass. You might like them better |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3019 Registered: Mar-05 | well actually I haven't hear the Maggies yet, that's been on my to-do list for the past several weeks. Just wanted to hear them in comparison to the MLs is all, I don't think I'd seriously fork out the dough for either though. Just hope to go and drool for a few hours...lol |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1280 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie a amp at $2500 is mid fi by priced standards,Eddie you will like the Maggies better than the MLs.Performance is whats considered first in my book than price,but price does count 90% of the time in audio. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1281 Registered: Jun-05 | Ok David thats fine we will get it together after Thanksgiving. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2284 Registered: Feb-05 | "I would consider "mid-fi" anything up to $2K-3K for analog separates, and anything above $3K to be RAVING INSANITY." That's nice, but you're wrong. "I love listening to music, but since it is only one of several personal interests rather than being my PRIMARY interest, I simply don't feel the need to buy a champagne system when beer makes me plenty happy." I have other interests as well. I'm also a birdwatcher for instance. What you fail to understand is that my system is not a champagne system it's not even a microbrew system it's more like a Bud lite system. It's nowhere near a high end system. It's about the least I can get away with that's musically satisfying. I would love to have a pair of B&W 802D's. It just ain't happening now. I have several friends that have high end systems and one friend with both a state-of-the-art Hifi and HT. Do I think he's a nut...no. It's important to hime so I'm happy for him. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 693 Registered: May-05 | Well, let me see. I went from a $2000 HT system that was 10-12 years old to a $2000 HT system, including connections and wire, that is relatively new, 2-3 year old Denon 3803 and Denon 2200 and new Ascends, before adding the new amp, which I still have not installed due to technical difficulties with the Seller, and which will take it up to about a $3000 system. I would guess I got a 150% or better overall improvement in performance, without adding the amp yet, and I'm thinkin' that I'm in still pretty moderate to low-end HT here. I've seen the "mid-fi" $10,000 systems and I'm not in that range, yet. (It does help to buy slightly used I might add.) I get Ed's point about diminishing returns but I don't think I'm anywhere near that yet. I suspect that I could spend $3000 on new speakers and improve my sound another 150% or so. IMHO Tawaun, I'll PM or post after I get back from Thanksgiving and figure out how to best go about this. I'm up for a $15-$30 investment. (I'm expecting Ed to pick up half since I'm the willing participant on his initial request. BUT, if he doesn't go halfsies, I think I'm up to eating 1/2 the cost OR we could trade speakers if I really like the 8.1s. LOL) |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummPost Number: 374 Registered: Feb-05 | I totally agree... I know this guy that lives in this little hole in the wall town in upstate NY that has Innersound Eros speakers. They (hate to admit it) BLOW MartinLogan out of the water in terms of dynamics, staggering imagery, bass tightness, depth, and power, as well as the ability to play in excess of 100dB with no compression, a miracle for "modestly" sized ESL's Art, if you can find an innersound dealer, they may just change your tune about 'stats! Unfortunatly they are now ungodly expensive, with the entry level model going for $10,000. When this man (my ex-boss while I was in highschool) bought his, I believe they were less than $6,000 for the ones they now charge $20 for. Oh...about the high, mid, and low end... he I believe said he had roughly $30,000 invested in equipment alone and had a seperate listening room. This was a while ago, so I can not remember what equipment he uses. I remember Krell comming up in the conversation however, so that might be the answer. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2285 Registered: Feb-05 | Yeah, Gavin I'd like to hear those Innersound speakers. My friend with 2 state-of-the-art systems has Maggie 20.1's in his 2 channel setup with Audio Research and Levinson gear. In his HT he has Paradigm Signatures and Theta gear (I really don't remember all of his gear). The total of his systems = over $100,000. I have another friend with Apogee speakers (which he loves). I don't know if you remember Apogees but I like those a whole lot more than Martin Logans. TW, I know you remember. Same guy has a HT with 4 Studio 100's and 2 Servo 15's with the Rotel pre/pro and a Sherbourn multichannel amp. My god does that thing rock. If you go to Audiogon check out their virtual systems. Even most of the budget systems put mine to shame. Check out the "All out Assault" systems or the "Done for Now" systems. Wow!!!!! http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frv.pl |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1294 Registered: Jun-05 | Im trying to remember who you are taliking about Art,but I know its a guy named Florian on the Audioreview forum who has the Apogees that only about 40 of them were made,and I think he has some where around $250,000 in his main system.The Innersound are the best overall stat I've heard,but I must admit i do have a soft spot for Maggies,I just know what they can and can not do,but if you have the money the Innersounds will do everything a box speaker can do,and the things that only the best stats do. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3026 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, well, since you have been around music and audio equipment far longer than I have, I will defer to your experience with how the term "mid-fi" is COMMONLY used in most audio circles. However in the singular and undefinable ECOUSTICS.COM circle, I hereby shall invent some new EDSTER-terminology, hereafter to be denoted with this (ETM) logo: 1. Crap-fi (ETM): $100-300 analog receivers, most things by Bose 2. Budget-fi (ETM): $300-600 3. Mid-fi (ETM): $600-1600 analog receivers, $1200-3000 separates (and of course the *un-fuggin-believably-divine* $230 Panny sa-xr55, hee hee hee!) 4. Looney-fi (ETM): $3000 and above separates So there it is folks, the UNDISPUTED WORLD AUDIO PANTHEON, as dictated direct from the mouth of the One Allah to his One Prophet Edster...bow down, bown down!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3027 Registered: Mar-05 | David, er, I have no desire to hear TW's 8.1 Diamonds, my friend Alex has some and I've heard them already. Was not impressed at all, though his crappy Pioneer 514 might've had something to do with it even if it's a small 8 ohm speaker. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2287 Registered: Feb-05 | No TW, my friend with the Apogees is Jim Ott. He owns Northwest Audio Labs. His 2 channel setup is quite elaborate. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1296 Registered: Jun-05 | No offense but your Buddy is playing the 8.1s on crap! Eddie let me give you a little history on the .1s of the Diamond series in England they as popular as the Qaud ESL 57s,Roger/BBC monitors,Harbeth H1,Celestion SL 6,and Epos ES11 &14 as far speakers that set standards at different price and different technology,they are part of this group that acheived legendary status.The 8.1s in this house have never been played on nothing less than a very good older 32lb Onkyo TS DX-575 that was known for playing 2 channel audio very good,and it costed nearly $600 back in 1996,more than $300 more than your dimunitave Panny.Most of the time it sees duties with the Nad setup and sometimes with the Musical Fidelity setup.I Guarantee you this im in no way am I sure that the Ascends are superior to them, and the Diamonds on the end of the old Onkyo setup will lend a whipping to your Ascends on the end of that Panny and im not even gonna bring the other setups into to the battle.With the Diamonds on the end of any setup i have will sound better than your setup,and the Diamonds on the end MF will blow your setup out of the stratosphere.So now Eddie lets back up,how much of a part of the 8.1s performance is henderd by your friends crappy Pioneer,.1 Diamonds are legends and they alway will be. Setup on a good system they will put a lot of pricer speakers to shame,its been over 40 speakers come thru my doors here in Cincinnati and in Oakland Cali. doors,but the Diamonds have been here since Dec.2000 thru all those changes,that should tell you how good they are and what makes a legend,and they will be here for as long as im alive and to my kids when im dead and gone. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3030 Registered: Mar-05 | TW, now seriously, I respect all your years in the biz but you ain't never heard my Panny nor the Ascends yet, so your religious "guarantee" about your Onkyo/8.1s combo being so much better is hard to take seriously. Talking about how many pounds the Onkyo weighs and its cost in comparison to the Panny is pretty funny. However what I'll do is see if my friend Alex will let me borrow his Diamonds for a day or two, and I'll listen to them on both my Panny and my NAD separates, then I'll get back to you on that. I can't remember if he has the 8.1 or the 8.2 though. What's the difference with the 8.2? I have to say, in theory I should be interested in the Diamonds since they're dirt cheap, $142 from Amazon.com |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummPost Number: 378 Registered: Feb-05 | if you want to see a SERIOUSLY sick system... somewhere there is a pic floating around of David Wilson's personal system, which is made up of Wilson Audio WAMM speakers ($230,000 a pair) a WA XS subwoofer (2 18 inch drivers per inclosure, $18,000 each), the really big a$s Levinson no 33 monoblocks, Krell CD player, and Audio Research Preamp. and TW... not always will someone prefer maggies to ML! Maggies tend to oversize images, where ML do not. Not only that, logans are more dynamic, and will play louder without strain. But, I think that the MMG is one of the best speakers around for its price. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1301 Registered: Jun-05 | He probably has the 8.2 they were the failer in the Diamond line and besides even they desreve bettter than a Pioneer,come on.I dont see you thinks its funny that Onkyo costs more and weighs 20lbs bigger audiograde power supplies bigger capcitors,beleive that means something eddie digital or not,the Halcros arent lightweights they are monsters.In all seriously the Panny being to be giant killer,now thats funny Panasonic is know for making TVs and camcorders not good audio Eddie no offense.And yes I stand by the 8.1s and the Onkyo against your Panny/Ascend setup,we aint a million miles away from each maybe sometime this spring we can make this contest happen.I would go hear the Panny they have it CC and H.H. Gregg and Rex,but the reasons I havent is #1 I know it dont sound better than my second system and probably not even my first,but the biggest reason is everywhere that has the setup the setting is screwed up and it wont be able to give its best performance,and it deserves that.Yeah you need to get your friends Diamonds,even if they are the 8.2s,although the 8.1s are much better balanced speaker. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1302 Registered: Jun-05 | Gavin ive heard the Clarity,Aeon,Ascent on countless ocassions,where they carry the MLs at they carry the Maggies to,and yeah the Maggies oversize images sometimes but the 3.6s and 20.1s dont they both have the real ribbon tweeters.The MLs sound lifeless and they actually undersize images,in my view side by side next to the Maggies they beat up on them pretty good.Dynamics are not better on the MLs,the Maggies are way more engaging and they play just as loud,thats the only way the MLs come to life,I dont even want to talk about the bass,the MLs bass module is joke they sound small,and even worse slow and they lag behind the panels,while the Maggies have faster more accurate bass,and to me they sound like they go deeper with more slam.I dont wanna offend any ML owners,but they are quite overrated in my book,and many other peoples book to. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3031 Registered: Mar-05 | TW, if you were to demo the Panny you'd have to take it home from CC, I agree with you their listening rooms suck. Anyway I will be borrowing his Diamonds later this week, he's already agreed so will have a review ready hopefully by next week. I wouldn't personally call the Panny a "giant-killer" if by "giant" you're thinking in that stratosphere of high end gear, I'm thinking that if a $230 receiver nears, equals or surpasses the sound of a $1000 one like a Denon 3805 to one's ears, that person would have to be an idiot to buy the $1000 receiver anyways. As for size and weight, well maybe Onkyo made much better gear back in the day when your receiver was made, but I've owned an Onkyo 601 and its music performance was crap compared to the Panny, despite weighing at least 30lbs too. My Marantz and NAD amp also weigh 3 times more and they still can't hold a candle to it, so I think it's fair to say that closer to earth, away from the high end exotics you deal in, that Panny IS just about the best thing since sliced bread. |
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Bronze Member Username: Raj_pEvanston, IL USA Post Number: 26 Registered: Oct-05 | How long have you broken that panny in? Mine should be coming sometime this week. At some point I'm going to try out AA Emma's on it in the living room. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3033 Registered: Mar-05 | Have had the Panny about 10 weeks now, took maybe 3 days to break in. The Emmas are interesting, I know that I'd be curious to hear how the Lings sound with the Panny, please write a detailed review of both the Emma and the Panny on a separate thread when you get it all set up and broken in. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 77 Registered: Aug-05 | T- I can lend out my 170s. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 78 Registered: Aug-05 | BTW- I was a huge Paradigm fan who switched from Mini-Monitor V.2 to 170s. About three years ago Ascend had a free shipping sale so I picked up the 170s to play with and send back at the end of the 30 day trial. My beloved Mini-Monitors were up for sale with-in a week. The 170s picked up details that the Mini-Monitors did not. Such as breathes taken, fingers sliding on strings, brushes on drums and cymbols, the tympani, better separation of instruments and voices, etc. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 382 Registered: Feb-05 | I will continue to love both ML and my MMG's. I think that they each are great speakers. Maybe if I heard them back to back I would hear the bass discontinuities, but I DO find the bass in my MMG's BLINDING fast. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 705 Registered: May-05 | T-Man, I hate to back out on our speaker trade but as you've probably seen on another thread, Ascend is retrofitting their speakers and I'd rather spend the $$ to send my 170s in to be retrofitted with the new tweeter and woofer. So, for now, I'm going to send these in to Ascend a pair at a time. Then, I can listen to the first pair against the originals and see if I like the sound better. If I do, the 2nd pair will go in for retrofitting as well. Should be an interesting experiment. I'll report when I'm there. Thanks, Dave |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1306 Registered: Jun-05 | Ok Dave good luck with the new parts. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 81 Registered: Aug-05 | T-man, I can lend you mine. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 154 Registered: Jul-05 | Well I've enjoyed reading through this entertaining thread. Tauwan- if you are in the Cincinnati area-where I used to live-- let me know how to send some audio searching friends your way when they get ready to make some new audio purchases. I enjoyed the poetic contributions as well. I am wondering if anyone has nay opinions on the Intuitive Design Summit speakers aswell.. just curious. |