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New member Username: Cszy67Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-04 | Please allow me to preface this with the fact that I have owned a good deal of NAD equipment over the years and have NEVER had a single problem with any. I still have two 2400THX power amps that I abuse on a weekly basis - they are a dozen years old and work great! I'm fed up with the "factory reconditioned" NAD T762 purchased two weeks ago through https://dmc-electronics.com/ Placed order - great deal - all packages (T762 & T562) arrived in great condition. - power cord was missing for the T762, no biggie, steal one from a computer monitor - play first CD and notice that first second was chopped off each song. I guess even though both my new pieces have digital coax I cannot use them??? - in between songs on the CD there is an audible hiss if the volume is turned up past 0db. Never have noticed this on my Sony ES/NAD 2400THX set-up. - the display went into a panic mode, could not read a single thing. Music continued to play, none of the controls on the unit could be used yet the remote was still able to control things. That was the first night. I called DMC the next day - they promised to have a power cord on its way. The gentleman suggested I reset the unit by holding down two buttons for five seconds, etc. Did this and unit was fine until... The next time I operated it - this evening. Was listening to the radio, looked over, and noticed that the display was blank. Hmmm...no controls nor the remote has any effect. Power button off - BAMMM!!! Something sounds like it has shorted internally and made a huge pop through my speakers - classic Paradigm Studio Monitors. I can't remember how to re-set the receiver per DMC instructions. Can't imagine doing this all the time either. Now every time I use the receiver the display goes blank and no changes can be made to volume, input, or anything. All I can do is shut it off and wake the family up when my speakers POP!!! Anyone have any suggestions for this disappointed owner? |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 203 Registered: Feb-04 | If DMC gave a warranty - Take it back for replacement (with warranty) or refund. Make sure it has the lastest firmaware upgrade also. IMO Do not accept it as is. Many owners have absolutely no problems with this model and others. Granted there are some that do but generally they receive good back-up from Nad and their dealers. |
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Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 275 Registered: Dec-03 | Chet, Rantz is correct, you should definately return the unit (provided that it has a warranty) for a replacement. I have heard about behavior similar to this once before. The display cut outs and the popping noise definately aren't normal. However, the "skpping" of the first second of a CD is normal. This is common to many other brands, not just NAD. When the CD starts, the receiver has to figure out what type of signal it is being sent (i.e. Dolby Digital, DTS, Stereo, etc). This takes time. The only way to get around this is to connect your DVD player to the receiver using analog cables. Connect the analog cables to the "CD" input of the receiver, while leaving the optical cable for DVD viewing. When you want to listen to a CD, choose "CD" mode, and when you want to watch a DVD, choose "DVD" mode. |
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New member Username: KendridPost Number: 5 Registered: Apr-04 | I purchased a refurb T752 about a year ago. After two weeks the left front channel blew with a loud pop. I then hooked the unit up to some old speakers and it was hissing like crazy. I called Yawa, the authorized dealer I purchased it from. They refund my money and I purchased something else. The NAD bug bit me again last month and I purchased a refurb T762 from Yawa. I couldn't get two bad refurbs, could I? Yes. My T762's screen would lock up after about 5 minutes, just like yours. It would also flash random characters on the screen. I immediately emailed Yawa and they took care of it. I am getting a NIB T753 for a very, very good price. In return I am sending the refurb T762 directly to NAD. I have given up on refurb NAD equipment. I can see how the tech could have though my 762 was fine - it worked great for a few minutes. I have to admit that I have a lot of concerns about the 753. I realize most owners have no problems, but so far my luck hasn't been all that great. I just found out that Yawa is shipping my 753 today, so I should get it next Monday or Tuesday. I will be sure to post my opinions. |
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New member Username: KendridPost Number: 6 Registered: Apr-04 | I forgot to mention that besides the screen going crazy, the remote would also stop working. It seems that our units must be close relatives. My serial number was in the low 200s, so my unit was one of the first buggy ones. I wonder how many times it has been in the refurb shop... |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 41 Registered: Dec-03 | Kevin, had the same thing happen to my T762. I had bought it new so NAD replaced it and upgraded it to a T763. DMC should replace it. |
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New member Username: KendridPost Number: 7 Registered: Apr-04 | I agree. Yawa upgraded me for free to the T753 from a refurb T762. I can't say enough about the service I have received from them. They have been great. I considered buying my 762 from DMC because of their free cable (they were the same price as Yawa). I am interested to see how they handle this issue. At a minimum they must take back the unit and refund your money. |
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Bronze Member Username: W9cwUrbana, IL Post Number: 28 Registered: Mar-04 | Chris: I have a new T753, and it too has the second or so delay during start up of the CD. This is my first NAD A/V receiver, so I can't comment on other models. I don't have any other glitches, hiss, or noise so far, thank goodness. I also own a Yamaha RX-V1400. It does not have the delay when playing CD's through my DVD player. When starting from Track 1 or switching to other tracks, the sound is instantaneous as with any dedicated CD player and standard 2-channel receiver. Of course, I could compare the pro's and con's of each receiver, but that would be a rather extensive process. I love, and have for many years loved, the NAD sound, hence the recent purchase of the T753. I had previously purchased the RX-V1400 in February 2004. Since it appears most of the NAD T-series receivers have this inherent delay playing CD's, it must be due to the unit(s) decoder chipsets used or firmware. As you may or may not know, Yamaha uses their own proprietary chipset for the decoding process; I don't know who NAD uses (Crystal or Cirrus Logic??). I've heard possibly others may have this inherent delay too (Marantz?), and maybe they are using the same manufacturer's chips?? Briefly regarding the Yamaha . . . it's decoding and all digital-related functions for HT work beautifully and seamlessly. The only gripe I have with it, is the rather thin nature of the sound, not bold and gutsy like the NAD. It's certainly not "bright," however like previous Yamaha models - just a bit thin for my taste. But, then again, I've been using NAD amps and 2-channel stereo receivers since 1980. Overall, the Yamaha's sound for HT is fine, and its logic steering is excellent. But, I don't prefer, or use, it for standard 2-channel stereo. |
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Bronze Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 46 Registered: Dec-03 | Chet, you said:
I may be misinterpreting you here but do you mean 'each' song has the first second chopped off or that 'only' the first song on a CD after switching from DVD to CD? If it's the former then it's a different issue than the one Johnny addressed. Johnny, you said:
Another option is to use two separate digital connections from the DVD/CD player, if it has two digital outputs. The problem with connecting the analog output to the receiver is that it goes through the DACs on the CD Player then back to digital on the receiver and then through it's DACs. I notice on my setup the sound quality suffers when going through this route. If you only want to listen to CDs in stereo and don't need receiver-side bass management a better approach might be to go from the analog outputs of the CD player to the 5.1 external inputs on the receiver bypassing the additional digital/analog conversions. |
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Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 276 Registered: Dec-03 | Smitty, Good points. Your argument about using digital vs. analog outputs for listening to CD's only stands if the DAC in the DVD player is bad. Chet said he had an NAD T562 DVD player. I don't know too much about the player, but I have heard VERY good things about other NAD DVD players. It seems like the DAC's in the NAD player would be very capable. I think this "skipping" is common to most receivers. So, even if Chet gets a new T762 that works flawlessly, the "skipping" will still be there. The only way I know of to get around that is to use the DAC of the player rather than the receiver...however you go about that is up to each individual. This takes the "guesswork" out of it for the receiver and the "skipping" should be solved. For me, the skipping is not a problem. Maybe that is because I don't do a whole lot of music listening anyway. Who knows? For some, it may be a huge problem. |
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New member Username: Cszy67Post Number: 2 Registered: Apr-04 | Fellas - thanks a million for all the replies - you all have given me some great ideas. The question I now have is: should I return the unit to DMC in CA considering that I live in VA - or should I mail it to the nearest authorized NAD service center since I am sure there is one close to VA? The last time I spoke with the gentleman at DMC Electronics he was very nice and gave me the impression that he was the kind of businessman that took care of his customers. Fact is, shipping is $35 each way and $$$ add up fast. It will be interesting to see how DMC takes care of this unfortunate situation. I know it is not their fault but since I purchased from them I think I will contact them first to see what my options are. Funny thing is since I am upgrading my speakers too I was really taking a hard look at the deals DMC offers on refurbished PSBs. We shall see. So - if you were in my boat - would you send my unit to a nearby authorized NAD service center for warranty repair, or would you ship it across the country back to DMC? Thanks in advance for your replies! |
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New member Username: KendridPost Number: 9 Registered: Apr-04 | I wanted a new one. Fixing my dead 762 was not going to be an option. Yawa is paying my shipping fees to get my new 753 to me. It is arriving on Tuesday. I am paying to ship the 762 to NAD, but considering I am getting the 753 upgrade for 'free' I consider that fair. Call them and go over your options. |
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Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 279 Registered: Dec-03 | Chet, Are you sure that those PSB speakers offered by DMC are refurbished? For some reason, I can't get the website to open right now, but last time I looked, all of the PSB speakers offered by DMC were "factory blems", not refubs. There is a huge difference. "Factory blem" just means that there is some sort of cosmetic "blemish" on the speaker (i.e. a scratch on the wood housing or something). I have never ordered one myself, but I have heard from others that these blemishes are often very minor and are generally not readily noticable. Sonically, these speakers are brand new in the box and come with a full warranty. If you are still uneasy about buying these factory blems, check out www.saturdayaudio.com or www.kiefs.com. Both of these dealers offer great deals on PSB speakers that will come pretty close to those offered by DMC. Keep in mind that speakers coming from Saturday Audio or Kiefs will have none of these "blemishes". |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 23 Registered: Apr-04 | If you are using a T562 as CD-player, you should definitely not use the digital out and DACs in the receiver, as the they are better in the T562. Use two analog cables to the CD-in on the receiver and you get the best soundquality for ordinary stereo CDs. The signal does NOT get converted back to digital again in stereo mode! |
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Bronze Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 48 Registered: Dec-03 | Adam, that may be true of some NAD receivers perhaps including the T762, but in the case of the T742 the signal DOES get converted back to digital on the CD-in (and all other analog inputs except 5.1 ext.), it then goes through bass management & subsequently the DAC stage. From my understanding, if this wasn't the case you wouldn't be able to set DSP modes on the CD input. For the T742 only the 5.1 external inputs bypass the digital conversion. It's very easy to try this out to be sure, I get a significant difference on my system between 5.1 inputs and Cd-in with the 5.1 input sound being superior. |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 26 Registered: Apr-04 | Smitty that sounds strange. The receiver should be able to just use an analog lowpass filter for the sub out and not do any processing on it. As for the DSP modes, as soon as you change from stereo to EARS/pro logic etc, the signal is shunted to the DSP (and the receiver switches from 2 channel mode to 5.1), but not if you stay in stereo. That's the way it works on my T760 anyway. |
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New member Username: KendridPost Number: 10 Registered: Apr-04 | I am pretty sure in NAD's documentation that it states that in stereo mode the signal only goes through the processor to extract bass to send to the subwoofer. The signal to the main speakers is untouched. |
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Bronze Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 49 Registered: Dec-03 | It's entirely possible I have it wrong. I was assuming the signal would have to be converted to digital to do any filtering to the sub. I certainly can't find anything about this in the manual though. If what you say is correct I find it odd that there seems to be such a difference between analog CD input and 5.1 external input (with speakers set to large and sub off), theoretically they should be identical. |
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New member Username: Cszy67Post Number: 3 Registered: Apr-04 | David from DMC Electronics was kind enough to reply to my questions with the following: "Hi Chet, I received your message regarding the T762. After contacting Nad, they gave me the resetting intruction: Turn on the unit(green light at power button) Press the "video button" and the "tone defeat button" simultaneously, then hold for about 5 second, and let go. Turn off the power, unplug the power cord. Power it up If this doesn't work, ship the unit back to us or send it to The Service Bench, Nad 's service center in Massachusetts. Please let me know. Thank You, David (714) 534-8780 www.dmc-electronics.com" Now I have already tried this once before but I will give it one more shot. The unit is playing right now and seems fine. If anything happens I will take notes and likely call NAD directly for their suggestion. |
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New member Username: Cszy67Post Number: 4 Registered: Apr-04 | OK...it just locked up again and the screen went blank about fifteen minutes ago. I was listening to FM radio. The radio continued to play. The remote would not change station, volume, input, etc. None of the front panel controls worked either: no manual volume adjustment, speaker A or B, tuning, etc. The only button that worked was the manual power button and my speakers protested with the loud POP as the unit powered down. When I turned it back on after a minute the display cam on (T762) and immediately went te the (DVD) input. The display seemed to cycle slowly kind of fading from dim to bright. After a second the cycle rate increased rapidly...and then the screen went black and the unit locked-up again. When I speak of the display cycling it almost gave me the impression it was initially "hunting" for a partner to communicate with...and once located the communication began and the display began to cycle very fast through dim to bright - and then everything stops. I have tried to turn my NAD T762 on and off three times in the past ten and it still will not power up and operate. Tomorrow I will contact the NAD repair center - anyone have any experience with these fellas? The Service Bench 227 Carnegie Row Norwood, MA 02062 800.441.7611 |
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Bronze Member Username: KendridPost Number: 11 Registered: Apr-04 | With my first 752, Yawa asked me to send it in for repair. To me that was not an acceptable option. I purchased a very expensive piece of hardware and I expected it to work when I received it. Waiting 2-4 weeks for NAD to fix an already 'fixed' unit wasn't acceptable. I'm normally not a pushy guy, but I didn't just spend a lot of money on something to have to ship it off to be repaired. If I had purchased the unit locally I would have returned it to the store and received another refurb or requested my money back. I view mail order in the same manner. They are an authorized dealer so they should take care of me like a local dealer would. In the end Yawa did, and they were very polite and professional. I'd expect DCM to do the same. |
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Bronze Member Username: TrailerparkkingGrand Rapids, MI Post Number: 13 Registered: Apr-04 | Who is YAWA? Sorry for the dumb question :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: KendridPost Number: 12 Registered: Apr-04 | http://www.yawaonline.com/ You have to email or call for a better price than what is listed on their website. |
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Bronze Member Username: BuckeyeshinePost Number: 84 Registered: Feb-04 | Chet, I have to agree with Kevin. I would not accept having to send a unit I just purchased into a repair center under warranty no matter what the brand. This just wouldn't sit well with me to have to go through that process. I would push back on DMC for this and request they swap your unit with another and then they can address the defective unit themselves. I think this is a reasonable request and a reputable dealer would be understanding and work with you. It sounds like they've already worked with you some already so they need to go the extra mile for a satisfied customer. And when I deal with anybody in situations like this, if I don't get the response I want and feel is appropriate I escalate my request up the management chain. Knock wood I have never failed with this approach. One time I even went up the ladder until I got to a Regional VP of a chain in another State. He took care of my request. I only take this approach when I think I'm being reasonable with my request. There are unfortunately many unreasonable idiots out there. Good luck and keep us posted. |
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Bronze Member Username: KendridPost Number: 15 Registered: Apr-04 | JDG has it right IMO. Think of it this way: If you purchased a CDROM from Best Buy and it didn't work, would you send it in for repair or return it to BB? I'd guess that 99% of people would return it and get another. |
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New member Username: Cszy67Post Number: 5 Registered: Apr-04 | Great news. I called David at DMC Electronics and we discussed the problems my new receiver has. Our options included sending the unit back to him in CA or me shipping the unit directly to The Service Bench in MA. David agreed to pay for the shipping and we both agreed that shipping to The Service Bench would be the best option. David also reminded me to include a description of exactly what the problems were and when they occurred. All in all I am not 100% happy with my overall purchase - most likely I would do the same again though. I understood that buying a refurbished receiver from across the country would include taking on some additional risk - but then again, for saving as much as I did the additional risk was worth it. |
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Jan Vigne Unregistered guest | Well, since I'm no longer selling I really have no dog in this fight but I had to deal with mail order prices all the time. I have ordered things from mail order and been perfectly satisfied and I have been burned by a unit that doesn't operate properly and had to pay the charges to ship a unit back. It can eat up your "deal" pretty quickly. I have dealt with DMC and they seem to be willing to help since they (like most retailers) are looking for return business. Most retailers are honest and will work with customers but please keep in mind the hassles that can arise from that "great deal". As stated if you had purchased from a local dealer you could have taken it back that day and received a different unit or even had them check out a unit's basic operation before you picked it up. I know this is not possible if you have no local dealer who carries the product you want. And the local NAD dealer in my area will not discount anything. It's hard to justify the extra money sometimes but if a salesperson and store have worked hard for your business please give them every opportunity to get your business. And any dealer that has taken your money should be ready to work to keep you satisfied. From my limited experience with DMC, I would guess they will do their best to help you. Send the unit back for an exchange. And when you return the unit, please make as detailed an explanation of the problem as is possible. Unfortunately a lot of salespeople are very lazy about a lot of things and I have seen customers give a salesperson a detailed description of when the noise occurred only in the right channel of the phono section and only after the unit had warmed up completely and only intermittently. After the customer walks away the salesperson writes "dead" on the service request and the tech has no idea what he's looking for so nothing gets fixed. I loved my profession but there were and are some very lazy people in sales. Good luck with your problem. As an aside, am I the only one who thinks music almost always sounds better when you listen just in stereo. How old I feel. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 734 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, " As an aside, am I the only one who thinks music almost always sounds better when you listen just in stereo." I thought that, too, strongly, and was extremely reluctant to get into all this HT business. I am from the "old school" and hated the whole idea of active subs - speakers should be full-frequency range, and introduce no colouration, n'est-ce pas? But my family wanted movies, and I baulked at the price and quality of stuff being sold as all-in-one surround systems, knowing full well my stereo was miles better. I was right. Once you have a device to read 5.1 discs and amplification, you just use your old speakers. Speakers are still speakers, sound is still sound. And it becomes even more important that you can hear where it is coming from. The old virtues are the new ones, too. And inside 5.1 is 2.0, ready and waiting. Just as a good stereo system could also do mono. About a year later, I come out the other end, discover DVD-Audio, and thank my family. The family is also delighted with the result, and discovered the old guy knew some things, since we have a system far superior to all-in ones in kids' friends' homes, and sometimes at much less cost. As an unexpected spin-off, I have a renewed interest in listening to music, including in stereo, including my LPs. I have read this from a number of regular contributors here. BTW some of the quality DVD-Audio recordings do not use the sub at all, and often not the center channel, either, for reasons stereo purists will see immediately. 5.0 or 4.0 recordings are not uncommon. The problem with DVD-Audio is it gets filed under "Home Theater". We have a new category here under "Home Audio" for "DVD-Audio and SACD". Nevertheless my NAD T533 DVD/CD player user's review, and DVD-Audio is under "DVD players" under "Home Video" (placed there by admin), so I try to link it from more relevant threads. The latest posts there have something about which music really benfits from surround reproduction. Some of it really does - greatly. The answer to whether music sounds better in stereo is simple: it depends on the music. |
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Unregistered guest | John, you're correct that the format choice may depend on the music. The only comment I would add is I seldom hear a stereo (2.0) recording whether it be old, new or reprocessed mono (why do they do that?) that sounds that good to me when it is run through digital processing and multiple speakers. I am probably being an old stick in the mud but it almost always seems to detract from the music or at least not add anything. It seems to be similar to the idea for the original Bose 901. Amar Bose had evidence from studies done at MIT that 9/10 of what you hear in a concert hall is reflected sound. He set about building a speaker with one speaker on the front to send sound directly (approx. 1/10) at your listening position and 8 speakers on the sides and rear of the cabinet to send reflected sound (approx. 9/10)into the room. This was miltiplied times two for a stereo pair. This, of course ignored the fact that within your own listening room what you hear is predominately reflected sound. Instead of adding life to the music digitally created multiple sources seem to muddy things up to me. But my listening area is set up for a rather lively response that adds a sense of ambience. When I added SACD to the system last year I tried a few discs and found the resolution better but it reminded me quite often of the days of CD-4 quadrophonic sound where the mix down put you in the center of the band and even, sometimes, in the center of the guitar's stereo pick ups or the snares on a drum set. Sound, sometimes from the same instrument was coming from different parts of the room. Back in the 70's, when I was much more experimental with my entertainment enhancements, I found that occassionally interesting but now it bothers the P-diddle out of me. It's OK with "Dark Side of the Moon" but orchestral pieces and many live recordings don't work for me. As always the mix down is what will make the recording. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 777 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, You wrote "I seldom hear a stereo (2.0) recording whether it be old, new or reprocessed mono (why do they do that?) that sounds that good to me when it is run through digital processing and multiple speakers". I completely agree. In fact I would delete "seldom" and replace it with "never". Following your post, I wrote a long essay about Blumlein pairs, where to put microphones, and what is wrong with the Bose mentality. And where to put Bose... Here is another long essay, instead. Jan, your posts are hugely informative and stimulating, and send me off in too many directions. I can even follow "(why do they do that?)" I have some Decca Eclipse LPs, "mono recording electronically reprocessed to give stereo effect on stereo equipment". They did it for the same reasons we now have Prologic and all these naff matrixed surround processing programs. In 2020 people will be saying "Prologic: why did they do that?" Briefly: Decca had a back catalogue of mono recordings, stereo was getting fashionable, and they hoped no-one would notice the difference..... (My aside: one of my first LP purchases was a Decca "Eclipse" LP. I now have the same piece of music on DVD-A. In between, I have two Cd versions. Thrilled by the DVD-A, and with my LP interest rejuvenated partly by your throw-away remark "open the lid", I played the original LP, now almost exactly 30 years old. It is dire. Wonderful performance, LP still in good condition, good surface, good frequency response, "stereo effect" gives you the impression you have gone completely deaf in one ear. And do you know what? My receiver has NO MONO BUTTON. The only way to play those things was in mono.) Trying to get back on the rails... Jan, you know audio inside out. I am in awe of your knowledge and insight. But, as with one or two other experienced listeners who post here, I suspect - and forgive the presumption - you are still trying to filter out all the hype and gobbydegook surrounding home theater/home cinema. You know it is garbage, but I believe that you are accidentally throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Consider. 1. With four speakers, and you in the center of the square whose corners they are at, you have a stereo pair on each of the four sides. That is four stereo pairs. All the old rules apply; phase coherence if you can get it; full frequency response if you can get it; speakers angled inwards so you are listening on-axis. 2. Center speaker. On most recording you have to put up with it. "Audiophile" DVD-As often don't use it at all, even if they say "5.1" on the label. However, when used by a recording engineering who thinks his job is to be creative, the center channel does real damage to the sound stage. 3. The source. It has to be a true, multichannel recording. 4.0 is probably the best, but for marketing reasons, probably, 5.1 is now the norm (as in 2, some cunning labels quietly forget to put anything on the center and LFE channels). 6.1, 7.1 etc is total nonsense, and a marketing ploy. 4. What sort of performance do you wish to listen to? Here is the ancient dilemma, still with us. For many people, the engineer's job is to give you a sound which is exciting and interesting, but never existed in the real world. This is OK, it should not be made illegal. BUT..... if you wish to re-create, as accurately and faithfully as possible, the actual sound you would have heard had you been there at the performance, then DVD-Audio is HUGE progress. (I cannot speak personally for SACD). 5. If "approach to the original sound" is your goal, get a disc made by sound and recording engineers who had that objective themselves. I have about 12 DVD-As and it is clear there are going to be all the old problems again. I can suggest some cheap but very good "classical" DVD-As. Rock etc. is a bit more problematical because it is less likely there ever was an original performance. But not always. www.aixrecords.com might be a good multi-genre DVD-A label. I have yet to hear any, but have some on order. www.kaproductions.co.uk have done some great early DVD-A recording for Naxos (www.naxos.com), but now seem to have been supplanted by people who DO NOT KNOW WHERE TO PUT MICROPHONES (heard that before...?") 6. The heck with Bose. Your own room should be as close to anechoic as practicable. What you will get is the sound of the original performance, and it was not in your sitting room/ lounge, so try to cancel that out; it will only cause confusion. Soft furnishings etc. 7. The "sweet spot" is now determined by where your head is relative to the corners of the square, not the ends of a line. Start sitting right at the center, with the speaker delays to the same value, because the distance the sound travels to your head is the same. In practice you might have to delay the center a bit (but see 2): it is likely to be a bit closer. You can experiment a bit with altered delay values and listening positions, but you have to start somewhere. But remember, the essence of stereo positioning is phase. With stereo, you could sit almost anywhere along a line perpendicular to the one joining the two speakers, and intersecting them halfway. You cannot do that now. For your brain to resolve all the positions of the sources of sound, there is one fixed point in space where all the phases and amplitudes will be those you would have experienced IF YOU HAD BEEN THERE. 8. If you knew all that, apologies, and please say so. If you didn't, please give it a shot. Just put one something you are generally familiar with, close your eyes, and listen. And do, please, post back! Or maybe start a new thread. Or just an e-mail. All the best. Chet, Sorry to put a spanner in your thread, and sorry to read about the problems. Try My Rantz's thread NAD - To be or not to be? if you have not already seen it. |
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Jan Vigne Unregistered guest | John A. You and I seem to end up doing a back and forth quite a bit. I think, when all is said and done, we are in agreement that the mix is the big deciding factor in the sound you can achieve. And always has been. I believe that is the old garbage in = garbage out. Since you are the only person I have seen use the term Blumlein pair on this site and you apparently know where that should be positioned in a concert hall I commend you. My real objection is to two channel recordings that are processed through the digital circuitry of an A/V unit and regurgitated out to 5,6 or 7.1 channels. (Being an old fogey I seldom hear that .1 that I'm impressed with. Too many are designed for explosions and car wrecks.) I too own many mono recordings from the original pressing and subsequent remixes and elctronically reprocessing all too often strip the music of its best qualities. The end does not justify the means. It comes down to what was the intent of the original artist/recording engineer and does any further processing by another engineer or my A/V reciever improve the music. My system is well set up for a system that has to exist in a communal location. Multiple speakers make for more compromises than a single pair where I can dedicate a space to the "music room". And if I have to choose between a space for my music and a space where everyone can watch videos and occassionally listen to music, I'll take the music room as my priority. So in the A/V room/system I probably don't have everything as "correct" as in my music room. Maybe that will change as multichannel reproduction improves and I aquire more good sounding discs that require more than two channels. But, as you seem to agree, I think I will find too many recordings where the center channel is unecessary but is (over)used to convince me I spent my money wisely on the extra speaker (which was the reason for all that reprocessing and ping pong games that were recorded in the late 50's and early 60's). I have expressed my opinion of the need for a center channel speaker in a different thread on this site and provoked some rather fierce responses. I am again unusual in my tastes as I set my center levels much lower than an SPL meter would indicate is balanced; so what, its my system and I prefer a wider spread across the front with just enough to bring the dialogue to the center but not call attention to "Hey, I've got a center channel speaker!!!" And with the surrounds I spend too much time listening to the speakers and not the music. Should I have direct radiators or maybe diploes. Or maybe bipoles? Should they be high or low? Rear wall or side wall? I've asked and never recieved what I thought was a satisfactory answer. "Well, for some recordings you will want a dipole and for others you will want a bipole that's why we've made our speaker switchable or you can have them be both, or neither, or switch back and forth in between." PUH-Leese! Just let me go back to adjusting VTA between each cut on a record and only playing one song off one side of an album. I know it's a hobby but so is listening to music. When I was selling I always kind of liked the guys who bought their McIntosh or Marantz systems twenty years before and had somebody come set it up and never did a thing to it except continue to buy records and tapes to play. Anyway, so far my response to the handful of SACD and DTS discs that I have purchased is I am underwhelmed, and I don't get the feeling DVD-A will change my opinion much. But, please everyone out there buy more of these discs and players because that is the only way things will improve. I will keep trying because the few that sound good are interesting though I don't feel I have been transported to a particular venue which I kind of thought was the goal of "the absolute sound". |
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Jan Vigne Unregistered guest | This site is learning that I'm long winded and is telling me to stop and listen to others. To finish my thoughts from above I will say, as you have, the engineers on the new recordings do not seem to know where a microphone (or two or even seven) should be placed. Rock and pop are back to the days of "Were these people even on the same contiinent when they layed down their tracks?". (OK, the Beatles weren't at the end but they got Phil Spector to make it all better.) And several of the classical pieces I have in multichannel would make a Duetsch Grammophone engineer from the 1970's envious with how many microphone locations there seem to be and how much channel riding is done in the mix down. It's amazing that a French horn and a piano can be the same size. Then could it sound better if I had purchased dipoles? |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 800 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thank you. I have a response to every point. As you may have guessed, or maybe feared. But this is not it. I am currently a bit manic about DVD-A, and must surely sound mildly deranged. I really did not think such progress was possible, not in one swell foop. The people I am most keen to compare notes with are long-term careful listeners, and you seem to be about numero uno at the moment. E.g. I can suggest exactly what to do about the dilemma of "serious listening" vs "family entertainment", and how to get the best of both, which is very desirable. Also some example of wonderful engineers discretely dumping the wretched center channel, while leaving "5.1" on the box so as not to lose sales. But we are crashing in on other people's threads. Suppose one of us started a new one under "DVD-Audio and SACD" called something vague like "Teaching an old dog new tricks"? We could start it by copying in the last few posts, under our own names, of course. We should have to do it in the correct order, taking turns. A good starting point would be your last two sentences on April 24. I know for sure there will be a lot of interest, but people will never find this sort of discussion if it is filed under "Frustrated with NAD T762", and we must boring the pants off the others. Also, I still have the stuff I wrote but did not post, concerning Blumlein pairs etc. What do you think? We could maybe coordinate our initial posts to get it going. The ball will certainly roll. OK, look, I will start that thread now, but wait for a response there from you before I reply. I am aware that it is right now the middle of the night in most of the US. If you would just post your remark from Apr. 25, or anything else you like. Then alternating posts, to libertate the previous discussion. It is just copy and paste. I could give it full attention for while from about noon May 1 Eastern Time (6 p.m. here on summer CET). BTW there is no harm in registering here. The spam is almost zero. I don't know how they do that. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 833 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thanks! Here is the link:- Teaching an old dog new tricks... Chet, Bruce, Smitty, Adam, Don, Kevin, My Rantz, JDG, Jonathan:- Apologies for the interruption. Back, here, to "Frustrated with the NAD T762"..... |
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New member Username: QuesarahSaint paul, MN United States Post Number: 2 Registered: Mar-04 | AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT Well, no, not really. I have been having a similar experience with YAWA. Refurb T752 dead w/rapidly flashing (seen "The Matrix"?) panel display. They nicely upgraded me to a new T753, I shipped my old one to MA. Now the new one is flaking out. After random times (usually less than a minute) it turns itself off... THUMP. It will always turn back on, but ... arrgh. Anyone else see that? No, its not overheating, coldstart is the same, tried reset, auto-trigger switch is 'off'. At least YAWA has been great, but NAD is on its 2nd strike. --Sarah |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 859 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks for getting back on track, Sarah. I wish I could suggest something. If you run "Search", here, with "T752" and "T753" you will find similar posts - i think I have heard it before. There was something about "firmware updates". I think it is a "known problem" and will be easy for a good dealer/service center to fix. However, someone could have double-checked, since they were sending you a replacement. Hope it works out. Really. That's all I can say. |