My ears hurt
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New member Username: BadamsBc Canada Post Number: 2 Registered: Sep-05 | Didn't know if this is the right section for this. What I have: Nad T761 reciver 80x5 Nad dvd/cd player for a source Harmonics tech. digital interconnect QED anniversary silver spkr wire Monitor audio S8 (170rms 6ohm sensitivity 91) I listen to country, rock pretty loud, sometimes -10db but up to 0db, my nad volume control goes from -60 to +18 room is 18x25 with setup against long wall, wood floors, no curtains, three fabric couches in a u shape closely surrounding speakers. after listening for half hour or so my ears are fatigued(girlfriend's arn't, she loves the system) I love the detail, s's arn't really harsh it seems its more like crashing symbols or twangy guitars that make me cringe sometimes. I've plugged the receiver directly into wall I've tried bi-wiring I've tried cheap copper speaker wire(same problem with less detail) I've tried borrowing a sub and turning the speakers to small I've tried using a technichs cdp as source I've tried an ipod as a source I've removed the cheap thin jumpers from speaker terminals and am now using speaker wire I've tried putting blankets/pillows, ect. all over the room to soften things up(this helps a bit) I'm thinking of going to a laptop based source, using a waveterminal usb dac, and hope this doesn't make things worse. I am wondering if bi-amping another nad or going to a different 2 ch. for the mains or adding a tube pre amp would help. Or should I look at getting different speakers. Or should i listen to my GF and just turn the volume down before I go deaf? |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 717 Registered: Oct-04 | If you like it loud, but can't stand the bright Monitor Audios I'd think about getting some warmer speakers. The Paradigm Studio 20s or 40s may be a better choice for you. |
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brendy Unregistered guest | Listen to your girlfriend.Can't enjoy music with damaged hearing. |
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nout Unregistered guest | Like Kano I also suspect the Monitor Audios to be the cause of listening fatigue...but I must also comment on the NAD receiver...the NAD amps I've heard (C350, C352 and C370) sound pleasant, although a bit dry, at reasonable volume levels, crank those amps up a bit and the sound will not distort, but the dryness which was there already becomes more apparent, the sound will harden a bit. |
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nout Unregistered guest | Dali speakers might work well with the NAD's, they aren't that revealing in the midds like the Monitor Audios, a bit more laid-back and they definitely do not sound dry when playing loud. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 202 Registered: Dec-04 | Nout, listen to your GF. It may be fun now, but long(or) short term hearing loss is nothing to scoff at. Years in the bands and loud stereos have cost me plenty of hearing. Eyeglesses may be fairly inevitable, but hearing loss can be prevented. A childs high toned laughter is something I miss very much. Imagine a distant cry of a kid for help, or not hearing an intruder in your home, and not knowing. Hearing aids are marvellous, but something you would like to admire from afar. Turn it down, man. |
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nout Unregistered guest | I agree with you Nuck, most of the time I play music at moderate levels, but I don't need to crank up the volume, my listening-room is very small, (when going to live concerts I use earplugs, when the sound is too loud, or I just leave) but the topic-starters room size is pretty large and I assume he needs to play fairly loud to fill the room... I made my comments about the NAD's and possible new Dali speakers with that in mind. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6402 Registered: May-04 | Brandon - Do you experience the same problem when you listen at lower volumes? From your description of the room, I would guess you have a tremendous amount of reverberant energy bouncing around the surfaces and this is going to cause fatiuge in that it acts very much like IM (intermodulation) distortion. How did you go about "taming" the room with "blankets, pillows. etc."? Did you have a plan for how to do this properly, or did you just start tossing things around the room? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2780 Registered: Mar-05 | Brandon, It's definitely the speakers. You might want to get one of those Radio Shack SPL meters so you can give us an objective SPL level that you're listening at...seems awfully loud though. You could try out these, it's about $25 to ship them back for a full refund in the unlikely case you don't like them: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html You will need to borrow your friend's sub again to get the low-end extension of the MAs, but I used to run these off some 100wpc NAD separates and never had any listening fatigue. |
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New member Username: BadamsBc Canada Post Number: 3 Registered: Sep-05 | Wow thanks for the responce. At lower volumes (-20 to -10)they sound excellent. For room treatment, I've read a few pages on speaker placement, but figure this only really helps bass and soundstage and depth, which isn't my problem. As for material, yes I just threw large pillows, sleeping bags, heavy blankets, on the floor in front of the speakers, behind the speakers, along the side walls a bit. As for first reflection point(whatever its called) I was assuming the couches to the sides would absorb sound, even though they arn't very tall and arn't near the walls. I was thinking for a cheap fix to try buying heavy curtains on curtain rods for behind and getting a shaggy rug for in front of the speakers. any suggestions? I'll go get a meter from radio shack, but won't be able to try it till next weekend(away from home at the moment) Thanks for the speaker reommendations, If it comes down to the speaker being the problem I think i'll just turn the volume down until I can afford to make a good speaker upgrade. I listened to the paradigms a lot mostly on denon receivers,they too were a little hard on my ears, had my heart set on studio 60's or 100's but got a really good deal on these MA. When i listened to some warfdale diamond 9.6 on adcom gear they hurt quite a bit but was really impressed with the sound of tannoy sensys dc2 on the same gear. loved the totems but distorted the speakers once I got it to my listening level. psb didn't like as much as paradigm. liked the jm labs chorus 726 (on bryston amp and other really high end gear)as much as paradigm but didn't get a chance to really crank them up. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2784 Registered: Mar-05 | brandon, part of the reason you might be turning up the volume so high is because with the typical analog amp and so-so speakers, there's not a whole lot of satisfying detail coming through at moderate volumes. If there's a Circuit City in your town, you might want to take advantage of their no-hassle return policy and pick up one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009E1YPM I found that with the combo of Ascend speakers and this receiver, I now listen to movies and music at about 30% lower SPL than before, because the detail and clarity that comes through at lower levels is simply jaw-dropping. This dirt-cheap, 10lb marvel has single-handedly retired both my NAD separates and Marantz AVR. Lots of people with much more expensive receivers are also opting for this little Panny. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6403 Registered: May-04 | Brandon - I would make a bet your sound will improve if you do some judicious and correct room treatment. There aren't many hard and fast rules about room treatement as each room will have slightly different requirements. First reflection points are always tamed in any room and once the first bounce is taken down in level, every bounce after that is lowered also. If you sit close to the back wall, that space requires some treatment also. I can give you instructions on how to find the first reflection point in your room and direct you to some sites that will fill in some informational gaps for you if you wish. However, room treatment is not just pitching things around the room. To do the job correctly will require some effort and a bit of cash. Most people avoid room treatment because they don't realize the effect the room has on the sound (it influences the sound more than any component or speaker), or they are unwilling to go to the trouble of treating the room correctly since traps and reflectors are not as much fun to buy as a new speaker. If you want the help, let me know. Otherwise, go to the "acoustic room treatments" section of the forum under "accessories" and do some reading before you begin putting up curtains that may do nothing to improve the situation. If you want to verify the room is the problem, temporarily move the system into a room with lots of soft surfaces and notice the difference. |
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New member Username: BadamsBc Canada Post Number: 4 Registered: Sep-05 | Thanks for the help edster, but im in canada, so theres no circuit city. demo-ing some different components with a good return policy is a good idea. I'll keep that in mind. Jan I think I'll try your idea first. I'll do some more reading, then talk to the hi fi shop I am starting to deal with. If I have any more questions maybe I'll let you know. thanks for everyones help, I can't believe how much good info I am finding on this forum. |
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New member Username: StanPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-04 | It could be a loss of hearing so have them checked. I was looking for speakers and most of them sounded bright, especially aluminum tweeters. Suprisingly some expensive speakers used in aluminus tweeters. To make a long story short, I had a loss of hearing in high frequencies. Strangley, the high frequencies irritated the heck out of me. I had my ears fitted to musicion ear plugs and reduced frequencies by 15 db. Hope that helps. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6413 Registered: May-04 | I would have to agree that any ear problems will give listening fatigue. A low grade chronic ear infection from allergies or sinus problem will cause a sound as if glasses are crashing to the floor to any high volume signal. While it may be something you have lived with for such a long time you don't notice the problem on a day to day basis, it could easily be the cause of listening fatigue at high volumes. I'm going to still make my bet on the room problems; but I wouldn't totally discount hearing problems either. |
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New member Username: BadamsBc Canada Post Number: 5 Registered: Sep-05 | I know that I have slight hearing loss in high frequency, espicially on my left side (construction sites). I thought that this would make those frequencies quieter. I didn't realise that hearing loss irritates the ears. I'll probably go talk to my doc. I found a few good pages on room treatment and plan to leave the floor bare, and make fibreglass panels for the ceiling. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 213 Registered: Dec-04 | Have the hearing check first...you may make a change that really sounds off to others. Then enjoy...in moderation. Cheers |
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Bronze Member Username: Fps_deanWilliamstown, MA USA Post Number: 44 Registered: Oct-05 | You have a Nad with bright speakers, ther you go. And turning the volume down never hurts anyone! See your speakers sound best at lower volumes too, that is a good thing! My uncle gave me a pair of Infinity Column II's and they sound like anything else at lower volumes, but when the volume knob hits roughly 9 oclock and above is when they really start to shine. Thank god that that is as loud as I would normally want to turn it up, but if your ears hurt, turn it down man! The other thing is you should try putting the speakers in corners. If you have bright speakers especially though a brighter amp, you will greatly benefit from this! Try that and let me know how it goes. And edster, do you work for Panasonic designing cheap receivers or something? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2807 Registered: Mar-05 | > And edster, do you work for Panasonic designing cheap receivers or something? wish it were so but alas no, LOL. No I just like to tell people about these all-digitals because most don't even know the diff between an analog and digital receiver, and also Panasonic is not a name usually associated with high quality sound. I learned about these things only through audio forums like this and am very grateful I did---a $230 little thing like that which easily surpassed my $600 Marantz AVR and $1300 (if bought new) NAD separates, is amazing indeed. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 996 Registered: Sep-04 | Brandon We have a similar sized demo room. The acousticians (RPG) have been in and the room is literally transformed! We had been suffering from bass and noise problems. We now have bass traps and abflectors at 1st reflection points as well as behind the speakers, and a large-ish diffuser on the wall opposite the speakers (behind the seating position). It sounds like a different room, and it has enhanced the difference between good and bad kit!  Now I am not perticularly fond of Monitor Audio speakers. Generally I don't find them bright but some people are susceptible to their metal dome tweeters. What I find is that people tend to turn up MAs because of the lack of bass and this makes them sound harsh. In a sparsely furnished room with exposed floor, this effect is easily reproduced. If you have large windows (which is usual in rooms that size), they will make the room even brighter. Curtains help a lot in that situation. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6433 Registered: May-04 | Brandon - I would suggest you place a small area rug with a pad underneath at the first reflection point on the floor. If your seating location is anywhere close to the back wall, this area should be treated either with a diffuser as Frank has suggested or an absortion panel of a very effective material. Very effective means plenty of open cell foam with a corrugated surface, fiberglass or something that will actually be effective with minimal amounts used. This is an area where cloth alone is not effective unless it is hung in soft pleats to act as a diffusion device. Or combine the cloth in front of the foam to disguise the dampening material. Treat these two areas and then the first reflection off the side walls. That should make a significant difference in your room's sound if you use effective materials afor the dampening and/or diffusion. After that the ceiling is important if it is about equal distance from the centerline of the speakers and the floor. Corners should be treated for bass response in most rooms. The idea in most instances is to break up the standing waves in the corners and bookshelves full of soft surfaces and placed across the corners at an angle will often do the job and avoid the "room treatment" look. When thinking of dampening materials, anything that is so tightly woven that you cannot see into the material's surface or that you cannot see a strong light source passing through will be effective only in small portions of the frequency bandwidth and will reflect any frequency wavelength smaller than the weave pattern. Materials with an open weave pattern require multiple layers of material or thickness to be effective. http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/index.php |
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New member Username: BadamsBc Canada Post Number: 6 Registered: Sep-05 | Thanks for the great info. The few audioshops around here don't seem to do anything for room treatment, so finding the fibreglass might take a while. I was going to add it to the ceiling rather than the floor because I don't think it would look too bad if it was covered in white linen, and my dog would shed and destroy any carpet. This has the same effect right? I'll try moving the bookshelves I have to the corners, How high do they have to be? I was told the same hight as the speakers, is this true? I tried adding the sub for more bass, but with the front speakers set to large, barely any sound came out of the sub. With the front speakers set to small, the sub worked but bass lacked from the towers. I have put off adding the sub now because I would rather bass come from the towers, Or does adding the sub take load off of the amp? Sounded about the same to me. After Im done with the room treatments, I may have to consider demoing some other speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6455 Registered: May-04 | Any parallel pair of surfaces should eventually be treated. The reasons for treating the floor first is its distance from the speaker is typically shorter that the distance from the ceiling to the speaker. That places the first reflection off the floor closer to what you are hearing from the direct radiation of the speaker. Distance equals time in this case and that places the reflected sound from the floor at an arrival time (at your ear) that is more likly to smear the two together. Ultimately it pays to treat all first reflection points but you normally go about fixing problems in their order of descending importance to the sound. Also the floor is just the more likely place to treat. I have, however, suggested to people their room is not done just because they treated the floor and walls. In your case, Brandon, I would invest in something for the floor. From your description, you have a very hard, reflective room. The bookcases should be as high and as deep as posible. Those two dimensions trump width in this case. You are trying to affect sinewaves up to 30' in height (if there were no ceiling and floor to bounce them back). Don't pack the shelves with "hard" materials. The idea is to create something other than a 90° intersection, but you also want to bounce the signal by using the boook case materials as a diffusion device. If you don't know what a "diffusion device" amounts to, put the term in a search engine along with "room acoustics treatment". The set up of the sub and the Xo point are a matter of tase as far as music is concerned. Some people like their front speakers to play full range, others like the low bass removed from the front channels and see that as a positive. For music, I consider it a personal choice however. |
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Bronze Member Username: Fps_deanWilliamstown, MA USA Post Number: 72 Registered: Oct-05 | I have a kind of related story. Eckman Model 101s... I had them sitting around for years and my friend was interested in a free set of speakers. I thought one of the bass drivers had blown but they both seemed good but the high drivers did not work at all. And did they ever hurt my ears - all midrange. I do not remember them sounding nearly that bad when I used them! And the only thing I can find online about them was pretty good reviews too. I don't get it, but whatever... |
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New member Username: BadamsBc Canada Post Number: 7 Registered: Sep-05 | So I'm looking for bookshelves that are taller, but may build some. In the meantime, what kind of rug is best? really shaggy? and what kind of pad should I put underneath, is it a special sound absorbing pad? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6497 Registered: May-04 | The material is more important than the texture. Get something with a fairly high wool content. The pad is just something to allow the signal to pass through the rug, bounce off the floor and pass through the rug again. Just a standard rubber pad is fine. |
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