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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 9 Registered: Oct-05 | I had originally posted this under the "Home Theater Setup & Planning" forum, but was recommended to post here for more opinions/advice. Ok, 1st off I am a NOOBIE at home theater and would not consider myself and audiophile (but can be very easilt converted ;) ). This is my 1st post after having read many of the entries here. I want to have the HT sound to go along with my big screen tv. I have read the comments and recommendations for receivers and speakers. The Panasonic SA-XR55K seems the likely candidate for my reciever since I already spent $2k on the TV. I don't have a clue about speakers, but was actually considering browsing craigslist to see what some people are putting up for sale. (Here come the questions) Would this be a wise thing to do? Should I concentrate on buying new or is "previously owned" still a choice to consider? What speakers would sound best (best here means something that would not put me over the $3K and already having spent the initial $2k on the TV set) with this receiver? What would be better sound quality floor speakers, small fronts (for surround), etc.? Should I buy new cable for the new setup or is my old ok (I have flat copper cable about 100ft @ 10 gauge *I think*)? My HT sound would be for watching TV (movies/cable/PPV sports) and for the occational music (going through the suround receiver). Let me see am I missing anything? Hmmm. The room size if about 12X15', HW floors (I don't know if this would make a difference in speaker selection, but just to cover all the bases). Attached to the TV now is a KENWOOD. Model # VR-406 surround reciever (bought from costco * please don't laugh too much*). For fronts I am using my old Mitsubishi (model M-S4200) and for the satellites and center channel I am using the Kenwood speakers from the Surround bundle. For the sub I'm using the Kenwood sub that came with the unit as well (model SW-22HT). The dvd player is a prgressive ONKYO 5 DVD changer (I also use this as my cd player). The Dish Net box has (I believe) 5.1 surround out (running to the pioneer receiver) and HDMI hooked up to my TV for video only. Any help is GREATLY appreciated, Mastermind26 |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 481 Registered: Mar-04 | if you're looking into the panny... you're off to a good start for sure. i love mine. i'd suggest stretching your budget the extra $50 for the SA-XR70 though. had i known that mind would sound so good, i would have bought the 70 instead for it's HDMI inputs. why HDMI? it passes high resolution surround info whereas coaxial digital only sends regular CD resolution. if you want to listen to multichannel SACD or DVD-A tracks in high resolution digital, you'll want the HDMI jacks and also when HD-DVD gets released which is supposed to offer high res audio too. panasonic 77 and 97 DVD players get super high marks for video signals (even beating $800 denons etc.) i plan on getting a 77 even if it only does DVD-A and not the more common SACD for better movie performance and to match my reciever. the reason i ORIGINALLY wanted the panny to begin with is to get magnepan MMG planar speakers. planars sound amazingly fast, detailed and unboxy. they simply make sounds more realistic. they don't image quite as precisely as little minimonitors, but their super high levels of "you are their" realism more than make up for it. vocals sound amazing on planars. alot of people complain about their lack of gut massaging bass, but what is there is faster and more detailed than ANY sub. i have a 12" sub and would trade it in a heartbeat for a single maggie with a broken tweeter. MMGs are only sold factory direct for $550 with an in home audition with your choice of 3 grill colors and 3 wood trim colors. i'm partial to off white with blonde, but you can get black on black etc. according to your tastes. read this review to see if you might be interested in maggies. http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/magnepan_mmg.htm i KNOW maggies would sound better than my zeros, but the panasonic has made them "good enough" and i'm always happy to save money ($1100+ for 4 MMGs) two other cheap add ons you might want to look into (where i'm spending the former maggie budget) are: a behringer DEQ2496 ($250) digital EQ that will allow you to tune whatever speakers you have for flat response (+- 1dB) which makes a huge improvement. if you decide on getting MMGs, you might want to look into the DCX2496 instead which does room correction too, but that also offers digital crossovers for when you want to bypass your maggie crossovers and biamp them. THAT'S why i went with the SA-XR55. i was planning on biamping MMGs. the DCX only sends it's crossover data as analogue, so i didn't see the point of an HDMI. eventually, the panny would become an amp only. now that i'm liking my old speakers so much more, i'm getting the DEQ instead for room correction only because it has a digital out. DEQ review: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/deqx/deqx.html finally, a monarchy DIP 2496 would be a nice upgrade to you digital stereo listening. it takes 16/44 CD stereo and "upsamples" it to 24/96 for a more natural sound as well as reduces digital jitter which makes digital sound "harder" this gear would stay well under your $3000 budget and embarass people's systems that cost alot more. definately stick with panasonic regardless of what speakers you go with. some day, i still might get MMGs, but it's no longer as high a priority because the panny is so awesome. the upsampling/jitter reduction would offer you a subtle improvement, but the room correction would be dramatic. i've written to behringer asking them to make a surround version dedicated to home theater. their gear is pro oriented, so you need RCA to XLR adapters to use it at home, but ALOT of people are doing just that. hope this helps in your quest for "bang for your buck" (my favorite thing) |
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Bronze Member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 11 Registered: Oct-05 | That is a lot of information. So, the panny XR70 instead of the XR55. Thta's a no brainer. How many HDMI inputs does it have (and does it have HDMI out?). The speaker situation: 2 "maggies" would be $1100. That puts me over by $350. Remember I already spent $2K, leaving $1k to play with. If I purchase the XR70 then that only leaves ~$700 for speakers. I was kinda hoping to use my old Mits. for the fronts (M-S4200) and simply "upgrade" satellites, center and sub. I would love the maggies, since I have heard their sound before. I was hoping that buying some Mi rollers and trying some of those "spikes" I've read about would bring to life my old Mits and save that money to spend on the surrounds/center/sub. Would this be wise, since I am using OLD & NEW setup? I mean, if I mix old and new, do I still get "clean" sound? On the Bi-amping portion: I understand the EQ purpose and logic, but for the you're speaking greek to me when it comes bypassing, Bi-amping, etc.. What is a DCX249, a X-Over, an amp, a speaker? What is Bi-amping? Why would I want to? I really do appreciate the response. It has given many things to think over. I'm finding out that my sound notions are quite limited. I'm learning though. Thanx! Mastermind26 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2758 Registered: Mar-05 | Mastermind, I totally understand your desire to keep costs under control after blowing $2000 on the TV. You're definitely on the right track with the Panasonic, for your speakers and sub this is what I'd get for maximum performance-to-price ratio: Ascend CMT-340center, CBM-170 L/R, CBM-170 surrounds, and Hsu STF-2 subwoofer ... $1321 shipped from ascendacoustics.com (read their reviews section for why) If you have to scrimp, I'd scrimp on the surrounds, you can get the Athena AS-B1s for just $100/pair from audioadvisor.com Your front 3 speakers however do 80-90% of the work so this is where you DON'T want to cut corners. Ditto for the sub which is especially crucial for action flicks and makes buying larger more expensive floorstanding speakers unnecessary. As for your cables, 10 gauge anything is great, don't buy into the fancy cables/interconnects voodoo. I would keep your cables and the Onkyo DVD player for now, and just concentrate on upgrading your speakers, sub and receiver---you will hear by far the biggest improvement that way. |
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justwondering22 Unregistered guest | So Connecting the HDMI from a universal player to the HDMI on the receiver covers you for SACD adn DVD-Audio? No more 6 cables from the DVD player to the receiver??? |
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Bronze Member Username: Paul98Post Number: 74 Registered: Oct-05 | Yeah it should, what universal player are you looking at with hdmi out? Anyone tried sacd, or dvd-audio with the HDMI connection? How does it compair with the 6 analog cables? |
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justwondering22 Unregistered guest | I am looking at the Denon 1920 |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 492 Registered: Mar-04 | no... you read my comments wrong. 2 maggie MMGs are only $550. $1100 would be for 4 speakers, and as trude dipoles, they would make great surround when you turn them edgewise to minimize localization. by all means, go with whatever works for you. i think that if you go to a store that sells maggies and give them a listen... you'll be impressed. i liked them so much that i was going to scrap my ENTIRE system to accomodate them. spending and i don't get along, but $550 maggies are a steal. you could always try a pair and if you don't like them, return them for a loss of only shipping charges. i'm not stating facts here... just opinions. i feel that planars offer a HUGE bang for your buck. you'd have to hear a pair for yourself to hear if it's the kind of sound you want. to my ears... they're incredibly fast and natural. yes... HDMI = 24/88 multichannel. (not 24/96 though) it downsamples a little bit. from what i remember reading, it has something to do with anti-piracy which is also why coax gets downsampled to 16/44 stereo. the SA-XR has only one HDMI in and one out. i think you'd have to look for a big and expensive reciever for more than one in. as more high rez gear comes out, then there will probably be more HDMI ins on recievers and fewer coaxials as it gets phased out. such is the price for being an early adopter. maybe someone makes an HDMI to high rez coax converter or will make one eventually. it would be awesome if monarchy released a surround sound DIP jitter reducer and upsampler for standard DVDs. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 14 Registered: Oct-05 | Oops! My mistake. For $550 they DO souns awesome! I have heard them before and agree that the sound is sweet. I'm kind of in another dilema now. I went away for a couple of days (sometimes you just need to go away from everything to "recharge the batteries"......you know) and while I was away, on the street the "good guys going out of business" sign caught my eye. Now, against my wife's wishes, I snuck to the GG's and found a Velodyne 10" sub. Now I don't have the specs (left'em at home), but they guy said it was their "top of the line" item on sale for $350. So, If I get the maggies for $550 + the velodyne for $350 + the panny for $303 (s+h already incl.), that'll put my over by $250. What should I do? Buy the maggies + panny and leave everything else as is? Buy the Sub + panny and use my old mits and current surrounds? Buy the panny + maggies + surrounds (supposing it fits the budget) and leave the current sub? Trying to keep with the Joneses, Mastermind26 |
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Bronze Member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 15 Registered: Oct-05 | The 1 HDMI in/out for the panny XR70 is a factor to consider since I have the satellite box w/ DVI (but use a DVI to HDMI cable) and the DVD player will have HDMI out. Is there a switch box of some kind to fit the 2 and simply select as you need? If not I'll have to use the regular RCA out of the satellite (as I do now since the box has no coax/optical out) to be able to use the HDMI from my DVD out. Any ideas? Mastermind26 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2796 Registered: Mar-05 | if you're short on cash forget the Maggies, get the Ascend 170s for $340 shipped. (Read the reviews on the site and you'll see why.) The Ascends are also much more versatile and easier to drive than the Maggies, which are known to do badly for HT and rock music. With the sub for $350 you can get an STF-2 b-stock from Hsuresearch.com with full warranty (call them and ask). That'll be much better than the Velodyne. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 720 Registered: May-05 | I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest here, but have any of you personally heard the MMG's? Maggies are a very good speaker, but you can't say the MMG's are just as good as the Maggies sold in the stores. Magnepan doesn't sell the MMG through dealers. If you are praising the MMG's because of their price and what you've heard from far more expensive models from Magnepan - I think the next step up is about 4x the price - then you may be in for a rude awakening. I wouldn't base my opinions of a speaker that I haven't heard on significantly higher priced ones from the same manufacturer. I'm not trying to bash the MMG's at all. I haven't heard them. I know one or two people here own them, but how do they compare with the much more expensive speakers sold through their dealers? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 721 Registered: May-05 | Sorry - I meant to say "...you can't say the MMG's are just as good as the ones sold in the stores if you haven't personally heard them." |
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Gvenk Unregistered guest | There are indeed different types of Maggies and unfortunately people do confuse one for the other and extrapolate unreasonably. Even MMG has two different types that people confuse. At the lowest end there are the MMG-W and MMG-C for H/T applications (and NOT for music applications). These are relatively small and hang on the wall only. The MMG-C is a center speaker that is kept horizontally and has a curved structure for sound dispersion. MMG-C is not a great sounding speaker and you are much better off mounting two MMG-Ws in series next to your video monitor for the center-sound. Because of the open imaging, these are better as a center that way than most of the low-end boxed center speakers. The MMG-W and MMG-C has to be mated with a subwoofer since they have no bottom end but this is common in H/T applications anyway. At $399/pair for the MMG-W and the same price for the single MMG-C, these are the best bargains for H/T use and work reasonably well in the mid-upper range as long as you have a suitable pre/amp combination. Getting a good pre/pro/amp to get the best out of these is the biggest problem. I wouldn't use these for music except perhaps AM/FM radio. These are one-way ribbon speakers (and hence the limitations on upper and lower range). Best for secondary or Den or budget H/T set up. A step up is MC-1s which are also wall mounted but come with a ribbon tweeter and hence two-way. These extend the upper range to be much more musical and have a lower bottom end than the MMG-W/Cs although they also need a subwoofer. At about $1000/pair, they are better for use in high-end H/T applications mated with a subwoofer. But they also face some competition at that price level for SQ (if not for the open imaging). It is a trade-off between the two (and aesthetics). They can also be used for casual music applications. Same issue with finding a good amp to drive them. Then there is the MMG itself which are floor standing speakers originally designed for music as budget speakers ($550/pair). These also have compromised low and top end and are two-speakers. These speakers and others above them which run much more expensive are too big for most H/T applications because of the placement constraints. The MMGs are a very good overall compromise at that price range and relatively very easy to drive. While they have rolled off lows and highs, they have virtually no "bad" spots (i.e., are very musically sounding in the entire range) and combined with the open imaging is in incomparable experience to most box speakers less than $1000/pair. They are best suited for jazz combos and chamber music but they do reasonably well for all other music as long as you don't want a floor-thumping bass. Then you have the even bigger models sold at dealers that increase the extension while maintaining the imaging and so require increasingly less compromises but of course at much higher costs. These are purely for music listening - too big in any case for H/T applications. Some people have indeed used MMGs as L+R and MMG-Ws for surround but since they are different sounding enough that matching them is very difficult unless you biamp them and adjust each separately. None of them are perfect but as long as you understand the limitations and strengths they can can be used in a way that makes most people who stumble on a properly set up system to listen with their mouth open at each of the price and form factors with the corresponding expectations. |