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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4279 Registered: May-04 | Just follow the glowing light, grasshopper. It represents truth and honesty. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3284 Registered: Dec-03 | And thanks for starting it, Rick, as well as for your own considerable input! MR, thanks for the link. An interesting-looking piece of gear. What a review, though. The guy is writing about himself, not about an amp.: ...I now had an additional concern. Could I even lift the amplifier out of the box in the first place?...I opened both the inner and outer boxes, and as I stared, mesmerized by the sheer majesty of the amplifier before me, I wondered if the four handles on the front of the unit were just decoration. A sense of both accomplishment and relief overtook me as I successfully lifted the amplifier out of the box and onto the top of my rack by its handles...." BS. Cutting the crap, I think the review could be shortened to "It is heavy and expensive". |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1217 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, Master. Truth and honesty. Follow the glowing light and you shall hear.............. Thanks John, always glad to have you onboard. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3288 Registered: Dec-03 | ...even when my posts cross? Jan; "It represents truth and honesty." I agree. But... We cannot know the truth. However, we can know falsehood. Falsehood is untruth. We must always renounce falsehood; this action is honesty. Honesty is the path to any truth there may be. Yours sincerely, Grasshopper. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4283 Registered: May-04 | John - You need to post that on "Do you listen". |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2051 Registered: Aug-04 | John "We cannot know the truth. However, we can know falsehood. Falsehood is untruth. We must always renounce falsehood; this action is honesty. Honesty is the path to any truth there may be." That could be shortened to: Honesty is truth. LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3292 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Yes, I thought of that. I fear there is not a receptive readership there at the moment! MR, "That could be shortened to: Honesty is truth." No! Honesty is what we need before we can ever know whether we are approaching the truth. We need to eliminate falsehood. There are two sorts of falsehood: 1. Honest mistakes. We all make these. They can be seen to be mistakes, and can be corrected. 2. Lies. Meaning falsehoods, put forward knowingly, with the intention to deceive. I advocate zero tolerance for these. They waste everyone's time. However, they are not always easy to distinguish from (1.) because liars will also lie about what they know, and what their intentions are. Everyone seriously interested finding the truth will admit the possibility that he or she is mistaken - 1. People who lie (2.) are not interested in truth, but in power. They may sometimes speak the truth, but very rarely, and by accident. Therefore it is reasonable to discount the views of liars, and to question the honesty of people who seek power. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2055 Registered: Aug-04 | Sheeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssshhhhhhhhhhhh John! All that could be shortened to: "Honesty is truth" If you academics took the short road once in a while, you'd have more time for music LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4294 Registered: May-04 | And then John claims he has to ponder Rumsfeld! You're right, John, though we're getting dangerously close to the political boulders here. Even viewed in the course of everyday life you've overlooked the people who lie about making honest mistakes and those who admit to no mistakes, honest or otherwise. Oh, dear, the precipice looms large and near! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3294 Registered: Dec-03 | "All that could be shortened to: "Honesty is truth" No, I disagree, MR! They are not the same thing at all. I should have kept it short: "Honesty is what we need before we can ever know whether we are approaching the truth." I was going to write " honesty is a precondition for approaching truth". I.e necessary but not sufficient. "Academic". Please, no insults! I was doing my best, there. Jan, "you've overlooked the people who lie about making honest mistakes" Yes, some people do that. They have no need. And it rebounds on them: how can we know they were not lying in the first place? "and those who admit to no mistakes, honest or otherwise." This is a dangerous bunch, in my estimation, divided into those who truly believe themselves to be infallible, and are therefore mistaken, and those who know they are fallible, like everyone else, but lie to themselves as much as to the rest. When the revolution comes, they'll be first up against the wall. Anyway.... Sorry if this sounds like a sermon. I am just trying to be clear, not make moral points. Actually, I don't care. My interim conclusion is that thieves prosper, and the honest lose out. I shall have to try harder in my next incarnation. Yes, the REALLY fundamental issue is tube amps. I like MR, he is a nice guy; he owes it to himself to renounce the solid state. There are some good Oz makers by the look of it, too...... MR also gets annoyed at being patronised. It is a quality I admire, actually. That will make him even angrier... BTW an even bigger question, imho, is whether truth is beauty. I am not sure what this has to do with amps, either. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2061 Registered: Aug-04 | John You are inferring that truth is 'right' but that is not the case. Honesty is truth - there is nothing clearer, but if one was honestly mistaken then the truth is still the truth even if it's not what another may deem the truth. And that's the truth, I swear it! AND DON'T YOU PATRONISE ME JOHN LOL! When a decent 6/7 channel tube amp with pre-processing appears on the market at a reasonable price it might be worth a look. Until then, there's not much better for the money that would make me more content than what I have now. I agree that thieves prosper and the honest lose out - but as my dear mother often states, "They'll get their comeuppence!" I remain sceptical. BTW - you know the sentiment is mutual :-) |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 635 Registered: Feb-04 | Hey, it all makes sense to me. John A. = Eric B. Interesting question about truth = beauty. Recently read an article about how vinyl sounds better because it distorts the audio signal in a mellifluous way. I've heard the same said about tube amps. We don't like distortions here, even of the pleasant variety, do we? I now realize listening to LPs on a tube system is living a lie. Plato wanted to ban art because he thought it got in the way of truth. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 636 Registered: Feb-04 | "Justice is for the next world. In this world, we have the law." |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4305 Registered: May-04 | http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/165/index3.html |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4306 Registered: May-04 | Honesty = truth? "I did not kill ... her." That does not mean he did not kill another. Truth = honesty. I'm sure I've told the story of the night I came home at 3AM in a pitiful state and my father said, during the inquisition that followed my arrival, "I don't care if you don't tell me the truth, just don't lie to me!" I burst into laughter and the questions were over for the remainder of the morning. I've wanted to say that to many politicians (and bosses) since that time. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2063 Registered: Aug-04 | LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2064 Registered: Aug-04 | Jan, I tried to open your link: "The page cannot be displayed" Will try later. That's the truth. If I forget then it becomes the intended truth but not a lie! "I came home at 3AM in a pitiful state" Not Texas? [grin] |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2495 Registered: Dec-03 | YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF LIARS AND I BELIEVE THAT TO BE THE TRUTH! As far as tubes go and this thread, ahhh there allright! LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4308 Registered: May-04 | Rantz - No, I hadn't gone that far wrong yet. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3299 Registered: Dec-03 | You are mistaken, Kegger! (But not about tubes). Of course, you could be lying about believing that to be the truth. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4317 Registered: May-04 | Here's an interetsing article Timn8ter posted on another thread: http://www.symphonysound.com/articles/tubefriendly.html I'm not lying! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2497 Registered: Dec-03 | I thought that article was very informative and should shed some light for those that don't understand how a speaker works or the charicteristics that are best for there setup. But I do hope it does not make some feel this is the tell all end all to everything for speakers and amps. As they did not even get into SET amps and how yes all the above criteria apply tenfold but so DOES the ACTUAL sensitivity. I'm not going to take a 3 watt set amp and run the ls5's 82db sens on them! So I do think the article can be a little misleading on some things! It also depends on what people are looking for out of there setups. Do you want a polite sound with just enough volume to hear your music? Do you want to get some big old horns that are super sensitive to give you huge volume with quick transients? There are a # of ways to setup your system and what you want from it not to mention a # of speakers and amps that go against the norm and work great in situations where some may feel they shouldn't. There are some tube amps that have more current then others so they work better on bass and low impedence speakers then others. Also if you biamp or biwire your speakers could make the EMF a null point. Overall I think the article was pretty good I just wouldn't take it for gospel is all! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4328 Registered: May-04 | How about taking it for the epistle? I don't think the article was meant to be the gospel. That would require several books to do justice to the complexity of matching speakers to amplifiers and would end with the last sentence of all the volumes being, "Of course there are always exceptions ... " It's tough to find a reasonably priced tube amp that can produce anywhere close to the amount of current a comparably price solid state amp can manage. The article seems to be aimed at the first or second time tube buyer and not at the person who is looking for the high dollar, high(er) current tube amp. Whether you're looking at tubes or solid state, the article mentions EMF. Most articles on system matching totally ignore the fact the speaker is generating voltage back into the amp and how that affects sound quality. Otherwise, I think their point about sensitivity is you probably don't require 104 dB sensitivity speaker with a tube amp and they explain why some other measurements are also important to consider. How many people do you know, Kegger, who actually realize a speaker isn't a simple 8, 6, or 4 Ohm load. Not many people know how much a speaker can wander in its impedance. Even fewer know how impedance against its phase angle are what determine whether any one amplifier is likely to find a speaker "friendly". |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2498 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan my comments were'nt really a knock on the article per say! But more of a warning to some people who take what they read to be the last word because they read it in a published article, that's all. All the points they make are good but like you said the article was to short to cover everything and with that said it left quite a few holes and some generalizations that are streched a bit. I just think some of us if not most of us are past the entry level gear and are more into the next level of performance to where I find some of there comments to general and can mislead some in my oppinion. But like I said overall a great article when engested correctly. |
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Unregistered guest | Hi Guys You have been most entertaining... but the information is why I came to this party. Kegger I am not past entry level so please don't leave out the elementry lessons. Jan the links you have included have been great! I've bookmarked most of them to study later. Thanks, Margie |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2499 Registered: Dec-03 | Welcome margie! And if you have any questions or a discussion direction to sugest by all means let us know, we will try to help. Oh I agree the need for entry level education and more people into tubes the better! Most of us usuals have been here for quite some time and some are moving on to the next level or at least next direction of tube excitenent. Glad to hear from yu! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3315 Registered: Dec-03 | I second that. Rick Barnes, who started this thread, is away (moving I think), so it is good if Kegger is our host. I am newcomer to tubes/valves, with my entry-level amp, so I am with you, Margie. Jan posted some links a while back on the basics. That last link from Jan, passed on from Timn8ter, was asking too much from my day, but I shall now give it another go. Timn8ter might enjoy this thread. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 223 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi John. Thanks for your e-mail. I'm glad you liked the article Jan. It's difficult to talk to people that sincerely want to understand what's going on with the audio machine but have been misinformed. As a result I keep a ready list of my favorite articles. The worst question: "How many watts is that?" My sarcasm breaks through and I say "Watts of what?" Before anyone here gets their hoses in a knot I'm not directing that comment at the posters in this thread. I like both solid state and tube amps. I'm after the best sound and some components match together better than others. I've heard beautiful music from triode-strapped SETs, giant push-pulls with dozens of tubes, Class A, Class AB, Class D, etc..Two of my favorite amp articles are: http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt/firstwatt.html If any of you are tube/single driver lovers and are in the Seattle area you may want to attend our audio society meeting on July 14 as Terry Cain of Cain & Cain will be giving a presentation. http://audiosociety.org/ http://www.cain-cain.com/ And if you would like to know who I am: http://www.alegriaaudio.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4332 Registered: May-04 | T8r - While you're around this thread a question was asked about the quality of Fostex drivers, particularly compared to a brand such as Lowther. I notice you list Fostex in your profile and use their supertweeter in your designs. Do you have any information on the Fostex line that might be helpful? Also, I recently acquired a pair of small speakers using a TangBang 4" woofer. TangBang is fairly new to me, though from what I read they are an economical choice for diy'ers. Any comments on their line of drivers? I can only assume your personal preference is the Adire driver you put in your design. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4333 Registered: May-04 | A big Thermionic HELLO to Margie. I've used tube amplifiers for over twenty years now. I was fortunate enough to have worked with several very good techs who had learned tubes when tubes were the only amplification device that was really available to the consumer. Though I've had a fair number of amplifiers through my system in the last twenty plus years, I've always kept the original tube amplifiers I began with. They are a pair of now forty three year old McIntosh MC240's. We are all on a different portion of the learning curve. I find I am still learning something new about valves/tubes and audio in general on a regular basis. No question you have will be taken as too naive to be answered. Are you considering a tube product of any sort? If you don't mind, fill us in on what equipment you have and/or plan to look at in the future. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 226 Registered: Dec-03 | In the world of full range drivers Fostex offers very good value for the money. While they are not up to the performance level of Lowther, Jordan or the new CSS FR125S, with some tweaking they can give a great deal of satisfaction. I find they will need help for bass, either through acoustic or electrical methods, and they generally have a forward mid-range which means notch filters, but always excellent imaging and soundstage. Tangband is an interesting manufacturer. They have hundreds of models and are used extensively for manufacturing by driver designers. The woofers in my Ling were designed by Adire but manufactured by Tangband. You may notice the similarity between it and the W4-657S, but trust me, the similarity is only on the surface. The W4-657S can be used to make an excellent MTM when XO'd below 7k. Another nice little woofer from Tangband is the W5-704S which I've used in some transmission line designs. The Tangband drivers are nice budget units. Just remember, you get what you pay for. ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4340 Registered: May-04 | "Just remember, you get what you pay for." Not much argument there. The only caveat I would add would be some people set the bar very high and attempt to reach it while others set the bar quite low and find more satisfaction in stepping over. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2500 Registered: Dec-03 | Good to hear from yu Tim! It's been awhile, didn't know you were into tubes. Most of the DIY guy's scoffed at making good quality easy to drive speakers. Seemed they had to have speakers that took a big ol beefy amp to drive them or they weren't worth making, to them anyway! Since last we spoke I'm all over tubes and have had or have just about everything, well not everything but quite a wide variety. At the moment running ASL 300B with some modded klipsch RC7's or my diy bookshelves with the bollenger grabenger tweeter. Love them tubes! Good to see yu here! |
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Unregistered guest | Well...last summer I bought a Mac... a moment please to catch my breath. (Thirty some years ago I wondered after hearing one if I would ever be so lucky as to be able to take one home.) It's a Ma6100 that I found traded in at the sound store in Marin. It was $400 with a 90 day warranty. At the time I wasn't familiar with this model I just got lucky. Then I hit the net and found this site and you guys. The Mac replaced a Denon that goes back ten years or more that was nick named Hal. Well.. not replaced, one doesn't replace one's chrildren. I also had a Denon multidisk cd and have recently added a Kyocera 610 single disk also a lucky find. Speakers... JBL 100 s that I bought new in '71 or '72 ( dear old friends )and some Klipsch RB5 s. Considering tubes? I am fascinated by sound and its reproduction. I'll consider anything. I don't know much about electronics I'm learning. My ears hear different personalities and quality. Your discussions have helped me make some sense of it. Some personalities blend well some don't as let I don't know where I'm going... Margie |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3326 Registered: Dec-03 | Welcome, Timn8ter! I just thought you should know you'd been mentioned here, and then noted your profile, so thought you'd be interested. All I've done after giving that article another go is move my speakers on to 8 Ohm taps, from 4 Ohm. First reaction is more details as well as more volume, but it is too early to be sure. Welcome, Margie! I've recently bought some speakers I first fell for about 25 years ago - so I know the feeling! Kegger and Jan are out of my league on tubes. Sounds like Tim (can't type that) is, too. I read with interest, and just try to encourage these guys. Let me repeat, this thread was the idea of Rick Barnes. All the best. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4343 Registered: May-04 | Rick also owns a MA6100 and Ghia and I have MA6200's. So you're in good familiar company. JBL and Klipsch?! And your musical tastes are? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 227 Registered: Dec-03 | "some people set the bar very high and attempt to reach it while others set the bar quite low and find more satisfaction in stepping over." LOL, I like it! It reminds me of buying some Radio Shack 40-1197s which was a knock off of the Fostex FE-103. I kept playing around tweaking those drivers and eventually mated them with some Radio Shack super-tweeters. They are still in use today because of their ability to reproduce vocals so well, and my wife loves opera. They're driven by a little 8w push-pull. My investment in the speakers amounted to about $70 for all the materials. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 228 Registered: Dec-03 | I took a little time and went back to see the PrimaLuna Experience and saw the question about the Omegas. My friends and I have played around with bipole applications of full-range drivers, especially Fostex. The Omega bipole is just 2 BRs glued back to back using the FE127E. My FE127E bipole design was a bit different and a big hit with my buddy in Campbell River, B.C. I have to say I was a bit surprised by the $800 price tag too. It's not like a complicated back horn, it's just a bipole BR. At least mine was a transmission line but if it performs good and people want it, who am I? I have heard excellent Fostex designs such as Terry Cain's Abbey and Ben. http://www.cain-cain.com/ Now, Terry is a master woodworker so much of the expense is tied up in getting a wonderfully crafted product that is nearly flawless in it's design and construction. The Fostex drivers have an excellent mid-range, though it can be rather forward, and usually need to be placed in either a transmission line or back-loaded horn enclosure to get reasonable bass response. Also, because of the forward mids and the nature of light coned full range drivers a notch filter of some kind is usually implemented to smooth out the upper range response. But, once the engineering is done you have a nice tube friendly speaker. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4348 Registered: May-04 | What constitutes a notch filter for the Fostex and doesn't that, to some extent, take away from the concept of a "no X-over" design? |
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Unregistered guest | The Symphony Sound link is very interesting. If I understand correctly... My JBL speakers can sound wonderful, they can also be washed out depending on what's pushing them. One reason may be the 12" woofer is of a design that moves alot. When it does that it sends a big wave(?) back up the wire and when it gets to the the amp the amp handles it one of two ways. If it has the "drop" circut and enough power...no problem, however, if it has the other kind of circut the power drops and the sound suffers. Does that sound about right? My Mac does good, with the presence switch...great!! I like a lot of different music probably depending on the equipment playing it. Paul Simon, Crosby, Stills, and Nash, Dylan are classic to me but Lorrena McKennett, Nora Jones and Sarha Brightman have voices that can make me cry. Johnny Cash's last recording will do the same thing. Eric Clapton on Guitar, Ray Charles and his piano, Kenny G etc. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 229 Registered: Dec-03 | "What constitutes a notch filter for the Fostex and doesn't that, to some extent, take away from the concept of a "no X-over" design?" For my FE127E TL design I use a .85mh inductor and 9.1 ohm resistor in parallel on the positive input of the driver followed by a .18mH inductor, 2.2uF cap and 25ohm resisitor in series between the positive and negative legs. This is a combination baffle step compensation circuit and notch filter. The BSC pads down the mid-range so it's balanced with the bass and the notch addresses a peak around 7k. It's not a crossover since there isn't a second driver to cross to. One main goal of single driver systems is to have a single point source (coherent) rather than a line or multiple point source. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4351 Registered: May-04 | I understand the concept of a single driver as a coherent source; but I was under the impression that the single driver speakers were also trying to get away from any resistors, caps or inductors in the signal path, whether in series or parallel, from the amplifier to the driver's inputs. Do most single driver speakers that use a driver other than the Fostex have similar compensation networks? By the way, "chicken pimples"? |
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Unregistered guest | Q.1 What is the advantage of single driver speakers? Do you use more than one set? Q.2 Can you discribe the sound difference that tubes have vs solid state. It's been a long time. Goose Flesh! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3327 Registered: Dec-03 | Margie, I am an amateur here! Let me have a go. A. Different drive units cover different parts of the audible spectrum. The problem is getting them to "sing from the same hymn sheet". A crossover circuit distributes different frequenies to the different drivers, but this arrangement always introduces a delay to one driver relative to another, causing a phase difference between them. This is no big deal with test tones at spot frequencies away from the crossover frequency, but all "real" sounds are composed of different frequencies, usually above AND below the crossover. Single-driver speakers are one way around this, but they bring compromises; any magneto-electromechanical device is going to have its own favoured frequencies, just like the tessitura of an instrument or individual voice. Most makers therefore go for the crossover solution. There are also planar, electrostatic speakers, which have a large, light, thin membrane as the "Driver". These bring problems of construction, but when it works (mine seem to...!) it gives phase coherence, a wide frequency response, and a much more convincing sound. Q. 2 Two Cents, Jan, and Rick were brave enough to try putting this into words. I am not sure I am. But more "fluid" seems right. More like real sound. In one modern usage (which I don't care for) on might say "organic". I just switched from a not-bad Sony transistor amp to a modern tube/valve amp, and the sound of my new amp is just more like the real thing, more like being in the presence of the performers. I moved back to the Sony for a few days and the sound seemed brittle, harsh, and just unpleasant. I cannot pin it down - no frequencies missing from the Sony; no phase problems, but somehow the effect is less "natural". Two Cents likened tube sound to painting in oils instead of acrylic paints! |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 230 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan: I suppose in a perfect world we could just run a wire from our amp to our driver and get good reproduction. Unfortunately, physics is against us. Baffle step compensation is the first challenge. If we mount our driver on an infinite baffle we will not suffer baffle step. Unfortunately we want enclosures so we must use a circuit to damp the treble to match the loss of bass response due to the transition from 2pi to 4pi space. Secondly, when asking a single driver to reproduce the entire music range cone resonances will occur and usually show up as a peak or peaks at the frequency of the resonance. So, we use a notch filter to pad that down as well. These are the issues you contend with by not using multiple drivers. Yes, there are some that say any circuit in the signal path degrades the signal and robs the musical experience of it's purity but baffle step and cone breakup are much worse, IMO. Margie: 1. Conventional speaker designs use multiple drivers to cover the musical range. To filter the frequencies to the drivers best suited to handle them crossover circuits are used. Common crossover circuits do not act as a brick wall. If you specify a cut-off frequency of 1kHz, for example, between a woofer and a tweeter, the woofer will play some frequencies above 1kHz, although at a lower volume, and the tweeter will play some frequencies below 1kHz. In this crossover area where both drivers are trying to reproduce the same frequencies distortions can occur. Another issue is phasing. Because of the crossover circuit the woofer can be 180 degrees out of phase with the tweeter (when the woofer is pushing the tweeter is pulling and vice versa) which can lead to further distortion. Using a single driver to cover the musical spectrum eliminates the crossover and it's inherent problems. However, single driver systems have their own problems. Asking a single driver to reproduce a bass drum at the same time it's trying to reproduce a piccolo is an extremely difficult task and will result in distortions also. To single driver fans this is more acceptable than the problems a crossover presents. 2. In my opinion, I find that a good tube amp can quite often reproduce the ambience and "life" of a recording better than a typcial solid state amp. However, when you start getting into very good solid state amps this becomes less true. In the land of sub-$1000 amplifiers most good tube amps will outperform solid state as far as giving a "life-like" performance. Some will quote THD ratings and how tube amps will have 1% THD while solid state has .0000001% (or some other irrelevant number) but in the power output range where we listen to music the solid state amp is suffering from high order distortions while the tube amp is not. That is much easier to listen to. A good reference for this is the article I mentioned earlier: http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html I'm not clear about your question, "Do you use more than one set?" Can you elaborate? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3329 Registered: Dec-03 | Agreed, Timn8ter! There you are Margie - consonance. I think. But with more detail, and much less BS, from the other guy! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2502 Registered: Dec-03 | I don't have anything to add to the single driver discussion as I have no experience with it nor do I believe it would be my cup of tea. But as we have said not every setup will please all! If I did use such a setup I would probably incorporate a super tweeter and a sub. Just my ramblings, continue on please. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 238 Registered: Dec-03 | If I were to speculate on trends I would say there is a real possibility of active digital crossovers replacing the current passive ones. This will allow crossover slopes up to 100db (the proverbial brick wall) thereby eliminating the shortcomings of multiple driver systems and the benefit of single driver systems. Still, there will be those who reject it. Just MHO. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2503 Registered: Dec-03 | I've looked into several kits for active xovers and would like to build one, just haven't found the one I want to build for the right price. Would love to build a 3 or 4 way tube xover with 24db level points! I have also looked into the audio research ones but everytime I see one for a decent price I have no cash to get one, figures! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3338 Registered: Dec-03 | Someone on another thread was recommending SDAT speakers. www.sdatgroup.com Some of their models have: "Crossover Type: Custom Digital Circuitry". Others have: "Crossover Type: Base reflex". I do not understand either of those! |
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Unregistered guest | I'm pondering all this... good explanations John and Tim thanks. When I ask about more than one set I was referring to speaker sets. Thinking that a speaker enclosure usually has more than one speaker with crossovers to accomodate the large frequency range. So might you be running, say two sets of speakers, one bigger and one smaller, connected to speaker set one and speaker set two on the amp and playing both at the same time. No that isn't what you are talking about...I'll ponder some more. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 246 Registered: Dec-03 | Ok, I get it now. When you're talking to an analytical type like me it's easy to trip me up with terminology. To help me out please use the word "driver" to indicate the mechanical device creating the sound, and "speaker" to indicate the system comprised of the driver(s), enclosure, crossover, etc.. Since there isn't a true full range driver we have to choose whether we want to use driver that is better suited to the higher end or the lower end then use a "helper" unit. Either a super-tweeter for the highs or a bass unit for the lows. Sometimes it's both. My "Ling" bookshelf speaker is a good example. The main driver covers frequencies from 60Hz to 10kHz. The tweeter runs from 10kHz to 40kHz (not that anyone can hear that). If you want more bass add a subwoofer. This method keeps the crossover out of the critical mid-range where our hearing is the most sensitive. http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/Ling.htm |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 247 Registered: Dec-03 | "Some of their models have: "Crossover Type: Custom Digital Circuitry". Others have: "Crossover Type: Base reflex". I do not understand either of those!" Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. Lost in translation probably since it's a Chinese company. Base = Bass but still, bass reflex is an enclosure design, not a crossover. Also, I didn't see any evidence of a digital crossover or at least there's no explanation of what they mean by that. This is a neat idea but once again here is a company that has elected beauty over performance. The satellites cut off at 200Hz leaving a big response gap between them and the subwoofer. For 6 grand? Maybe next time. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3347 Registered: Dec-03 | "Base = Bass but still, bass reflex is an enclosure design, not a crossover." Exactly,Timn8ter. So, even if we assume that they think "bass" and "base" are the same (...in a speaker manufacturer?!) what are these guys talking about...? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 248 Registered: Dec-03 | Ah, well..after having browsed through Chinese websites before it's not all that unusual to see this type of thing. I would generously call it "hyperbole". |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1226 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, I didn't want to leave anyone hanging on the Sophia Electric Baby. It arrived, and low and behold, 90dB in my room with my Spendor S3/5's. Does anyone want to rethink what 10 watts of class A tube power can do. 90dB and no clipping! There may be Lowthers in my future, but daddy will never give up his beloved S3/5's. How does it sound compared to the Jolida? It has a top end that will make angels weep. The midrange on the Jolida is a tad sweeter. That may be the results of the NOS tubes. Let's say the "Baby" mids are one lump instead of two. Still sweet. Very impressive amp. No time, I know I'm cheating. I just wanted to say a quick hello. Timn8ter, Welcome to tube talk. I have read your posts with great interest. Glad you are posting here. Would love to talk Lowthers in the future. Stay well all! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2107 Registered: Aug-04 | Rick, Glad the baby arrived, hope Mrs Barnes didn't have a hard time with it. LOL! "a top end that will make angels weep." I like that one! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3351 Registered: Dec-03 | No cheating there, Rick! Great post. All good wishes. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2506 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick when you get some time and you've had more extended listening, would love to hear more about the baby's impressions left on you! |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 307 Registered: Dec-03 | Don't know if any of you guys are in the Seattle area but there will be a presentation tonight by Terry Cain of Cain and Cain at the Pacific Northwest Audio Society meeting. If you would like more info send me a PM. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1230 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi Tim, I sent Terry Cain an email earlier in the week, but have not had a response. I basically asked why Fostex's in the Abbey instead of Lowthers? Is it purely a price consideration, or won't a Lowther work well in a Voight pipe? What is your thoughts on the Fostex-Lowther subject, using low power(under 20 watts) of tube amplification? Thanks in advance. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 308 Registered: Dec-03 | I've not built anything with a Lowther but have worked with several Fostex drivers and I've worked with several Voigt Pipe/QWT designs. The rule of thumb for whether a driver is suitable for a Voigt/QWT design is it to have a Qt of around .4. The Lowthers (that I know) have a Qt around .2 or .3 as do many Fostex drivers. These are much better suited for a horn. Price may be part of it in that if you're going to spend that much for a driver you may as well put it into the best enclosure you can. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 309 Registered: Dec-03 | I don't consider a 20 watt amp to be low power. Mine is about 35 watt and it drives anything I hook up to it. When I think of "low power" I think less than 5 watts. In this realm you have limited options for speakers. Fostex is the budget line, Lowther is the luxury line, IMHO. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1231 Registered: Dec-03 | Would you recommend a Lowther in a bass reflex box, for smaller rooms? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 310 Registered: Dec-03 | Only if you don't want any bass response. This is where the single driver goal meets it's greatest challenge. High efficiency, full sound, small box? Not impossible, but difficult. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 311 Registered: Dec-03 | A fellow in Japan has apparently found an answer. http://www.ibi.co.jp/belle/belle_images/sp_gazou.jpg IIRC, the starting price for these are about $5K per pair. They utilize a dual motor design with magnets weighing between 8 and 16 lbs depending on the model. Reportedly they will deliver 30Hz to 20kHz+ with 100db sensitivity. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1232 Registered: Dec-03 | Any thoughts or opinions on what the David D icks crew is doing @ Lowther USA? Sorry about that. The Administration has a problem with that word. It happens to be his name, gentlemen. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 313 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, I spoke to Terry tonight about the Lowther in a Voigt pipe. He said he did a custom job with a Lowther in a slightly larger Teak version of his Abbey cabinet and it performed very well. He didn't recall the tuning frequency, maybe around 60Hz, but he did say it was very "full" sounding. Also, he pointed out there are some Lowthers with a .4 Q and that Lowthers were originally designed with the Voigt pipe in mind. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1233 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks Tim. I'm just trying to digest as much info as I can in a short amount of time. When I finish moving my family to Florida, I'm going to have someone made a pair of Lowthers for me. Are you up for a challenge? Thanks again, we'll talk more when time allows. I really appreciate your input on this thread. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 315 Registered: Dec-03 | Unlike Terry, I'm not a master woodworker. I design, build prototypes, then contract the cabinet work. Terry built high quality furniture for many years up to 2001 when he went full time in audio. He has excellent equipment and a good, tight staff of 4 assistants. Custom designs demand a custom price but if you're looking for the best in a high sensitivity, single driver system, Terry's your man. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1234 Registered: Dec-03 | Thank you Tim! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2527 Registered: Dec-03 | Grandma: Goodnight Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Goodnight Grandma. Goodnight John-Boy. John-Boy: Goodnight Elizabeth. Goodnight Mary Ellen. Mary Ellen: Goodnight John-Boy. Goodnight Jim Beam. silence.... Olivia: Jim Beam? silence... .. . There all tubed out! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3453 Registered: Dec-03 | I like it, Kegger! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4806 Registered: May-04 | Nothing to add, just a check. I've been having problems with the forum. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2561 Registered: Dec-03 | I see yu there Jan. Recently I've added 2 fisher units to the mass of equipment. x-100-c and x-101-c integrateds that need some cleaning, then variac and see what we get. Any thoughts on those units? One is 7591 tubes and the other 7868's (basicly the same tube but different pinouts) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4808 Registered: May-04 | Most any of the Fisher tube amps are reasonable in their quality. Like any company, some products work better than others. But overall the Fisher's are nuch better investments of time and expense of refurbishment that many other brands. Just the name Fisher gets people interested and the small tube stuff is about to really catch on, I think. My real thought on you acquiring the two Fisher tube units along with all the other tube gear you already own would be: are you sure your house's foundation can support all the weight of those power and output transformers? Even a basement has it's limits, Kegger. You better check local building codes. (smiley face) How's the business going? Are you turning more pieces than you're keeping? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3566 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, Kegger, keep us posted! I, too, was thinking of nudging this thread into action; Jan did it first. This PrimaLuna PL2 is a peach. I think I might, one day, want pre-amp out, which it does not have. But I can think of ways around that. The glitches with the demo unit (cross-talk; one channel drop-out) are totally absent from the unit I now own, which is rock solid. That demo unit must have been a bad 'un. Probably a "Friday afternoon" input selector switch. If they have Friday afternoons in China! The dealer told me that was the first unit they'd seen any problem with, out of twelve or so they've sold. I promised to keep them posted on my progress with this replacement unit. I must drop by and let 'em know. I can also confirm that a rated 2 x 40 W from this amp with its KT88 output tubes is all you need, even with Quad ESLs (whose manual says they need around 50 - 100 W); I never need to go above 12 o'clock on the volume control. Thanks to you guys, and to Rick for this thread. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4816 Registered: May-04 | The latest Stereophile has a review of the new old Quad 22 tube amp. It nudges out 26 watts into a solid 8 Ohm load and drives the reviewers ESL-989's to fill the room with any music chosen. I thought I saw a review of this amp in HiFi News, but didn't have time to read the article. Mr. Walker was a genius. Tubes ...... GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!! *************** For those that haven't been keeping up with all the threads, I'll be getting a pair of Tim's small speaker, the Ling (which he mentioned earlier on this thread), on loan for an audition. I've been tuning up the LS3/5a's and the MC240's in anticipation. I have found what I think it the correct amount of torque on the baffle screws and driver bolts of the 3/5a's to get the sound the way I want for this pair up. The 3/5a's were designed with a "lossy" cabinet style and dissipate energy quickly as opposed to dampening resonance as so many current production speakers try to manage. By tightening and (mostly) loosening the screws that hold the front baffle and drivers in place, it's possible to tune the characteristic 3/5a personality. The more I play with these little BBC speakers, the more amazed I am. I'd say at least 75% of how they operate is against everything the speaker designers are pushing right now and yet the Rogers provide music only a few speakers I could afford can match in so many areas. The above is not to brag on the LS3/5a's again; but just to say I wonder how much progress has been made in the last few decades, how much of the progress is market driven by the magazines and I marvel at just how good those guys from the past were at listening. Get ready, Tim, the music coming through the 3/5a's is sounding very "effortless", "relaxed", etc. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3567 Registered: Dec-03 | We few, we happy few. We band of brothers. Listen carefull to the soundstage, Jan. Here's an interesting item. Probably a good source disc. McIntosh Demonstration Reference Disc - DVD-Audio Stereo, naturally. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4821 Registered: May-04 | Soundstage?! Soundstage?! There ain't no stinkin' soundstage! I got musicians standing in front of me. Now that's a neat trick! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4822 Registered: May-04 | I'll have to give the demo disc some thought, John. I've always had a problem with paying $30 for a disc and not getting the whole song. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2562 Registered: Dec-03 | "My real thought on you acquiring the two Fisher tube units along with all the other tube gear you already own would be: are you sure your house's foundation can support all the weight of those power and output transformers? Even a basement has it's limits, Kegger. You better check local building codes. (smiley face) How's the business going? Are you turning more pieces than you're keeping?" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes the gear is piling up quite a bit, both tube "and dare I say it" solid state also. I have sold a couple things, probably not as much as I'd like but most of it needs to be cleaned and tested and adjusted so it takes most of my time these days working on the gear let alone trying to sell and pack and ship it. And yes I have acquired a few I'd like to keep! Also I've been told by many that the summer isn't the time to sell but the time to buy/hoard because the parts of the country that actually have a winter there are no garage sales and whatnot during that time so the pickens on places like ebay get smaller with the same amount of people who are looking to pick up gear that the prices are higher and easier to sell things. so for right now having the time and the gear to work on not to mention the options to pick up more gear that I'm pretty swamped at the moment plus I'm working on some stuff for other people who are paying me money and some paying me in more gear! So make your own assestment to your question as I'm not sure! LOL! P.S. I am running out of room though! LOL! Thanks for the info/thoughts on the fisher stuff. I find I'm listening to a lot more radio lately, which is pretty cool I'm hearing some new good music I didn't know was out there. Also acquired some nice tuners (kenwood/ sansui/dynaco/pioneer/sherwood/heathkit) both, uhg!, solid state and tube. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2563 Registered: Dec-03 | John very glad to hear you are still enjoying the prima tube amp and that it seems to fit nicely with your quads, must be an excelent sounding system. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2564 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan I do keep my eyes out for the LS3/5a's hoping they will show at a place I visit as I do want to own a pair of those, and I do want the old originals for nastalgia if not anything else as you and many others have called then an outstanding speaker to the point of being a "reference" So yes I am very intrigued to say the least! I have probably 25 pairs of speakers allready but I ALLWAYS want more! I'm a speaker HO! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2565 Registered: Dec-03 | I know I've said this in the past but with all this gear and working on all of it I am getting a pretty good idea of what well built means and am very much so gaining a lot of knowllage into the inner workings of a lot of audio equipment! The testing and repairing is coming a lot quicker now with a much better grasp on what it is I'm seeing and how to disect/figure out just what it's doing. So if anything else at least that should benefit my own gear and make it a lot easier to keep my own stuff running and maybe even improve some it. I'm sure you Jan benefited and still do from all the stuff you've seen, That kind of stuff "seeing and working on" is so valueable to judging something, I know I'm much better off by 500% then I was 2 years ago. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4823 Registered: May-04 | What solid state tuners do you have to sell, Kegger? There's a kid looking for a DX'ing tuner on the "tuners" forum. Got anything in a decent Kenwood, Pioneer or Yamaha? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2566 Registered: Dec-03 | The pioneer I think is allready sold. I have 3 kenwood's kt-313, kt-2001, Basic T1. Have a sansui TU-217 (well should tommorrow anyway) No yamaha at the moment, the rest are tube. I haven't really had the time to really look them over to see how they work or how good of units there suppose to be. Do any of those sound like anything that might fit the bill? If so I could look them over and see how they check out. Just haven't done much with the tuners as all the other stuff seems more important. Some of these recievers have really nice 4 and 5 gang tuners in them. (higher end pieces) As I get through some more of the gear here I will get to the tuners but if someone is interested in something specific I most certainly can check it out. Thanks! Still a little green when it comes to tuners. About all I know is to look at www.fmtunerinfo.com to see what they say! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4827 Registered: May-04 | If a Pioneer, Kenwood, Yamaha or Sansui tuner work, they probably work as well as they are going to work. I don't know, this kids seems to have more attitude than smarts. Check it out: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/147813.html The username "stereo genious" should be a dead give away. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4828 Registered: May-04 | As a matter of fact, Kegger, after reading his last post, he's all yours. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2567 Registered: Dec-03 | Yah I don't know about that guy, Not sure I'd like to deal with someone like that, they'd probably send the tuner back and tell me I sold them a piece of junk! I think I'll leave that alone. Thanks though! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4829 Registered: May-04 | Wise choice. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3571 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks and good luck, Kegger. I will look out the Quad 22 review. I seem to recall it, but I was not thinking tubes at that time. The nice thing about the McIntosh disc is it is all 192 kHz 24 bit stereo. It is not easy to find such discs. One could downmix to 44.1 kHz 16 bit and see if it makes any difference. That would be the acid test of all this "hi-res" business, it seems to me. Now, about these musicians. If the recording has strings, I find a good test of speakers is if you can smell the fresh rosin on the horsehair. This approach has the disadvantage that not all musicians change their socks half often enough. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3572 Registered: Dec-03 | It is not just the speakers, of course. I have noticed with the tube amp and the ESLs that rock groups also have clouds of white dust flying around sometimes. It can't be rosin; it smells different. Kegger, I have some nice old solid-state gear, including an amp I left boxed for ten years and I think some caps have dried out, among other issues. Wish I could call round! Anyway, it's boxed again and far away for some time to come. FM stereo is very good, here in UK. Always the recordings (like the BBC prom concerts) are digital, but the res is very high indeed. I really cannot tell the actual, real-time, live broadcast from the repeat. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 863 Registered: Mar-05 | AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! <pure nirvana |
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Anonymous | Enjoy Joseph. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3583 Registered: Dec-03 | Let us forgive Joseph for being a little imprecise. I belive he is listening to music using his new Jolida 502b tube amp. Do you listen. I remember that all Rick could write for several days was the word "t u b e s". He got a grip eventually and could get as far as "t u b e s ... g o o d". If it gets all of us here like this, why aren't they more popular..?! Why do people look at you with suspicion? My family try to hide the fact that I have tube amp from neighbours and friends, I swear it. They do not wish people to think the poor guy has finally flipped. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 865 Registered: Mar-05 | It's unreal. With the NAD, almost every song was not balanced(bass and treble). Being the analitical self proclaimed purist that I am, I didn't adjust the levels to accomodate different songs. This thing does not need anything on any song I have put through it so far. The balance of sound, levels and just plaijn ol great music....well I imagine if your on this thread , you all know already. Here I am , new member with barely past virgin ears and well on my way to being an audio wh0re. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4877 Registered: May-04 | j.c. - When my fellow Old Dogs began investigating tube amplification I suggested the most readily apparent improvement in sound quality was a better recognition of how notes begin and end. Any comments on that? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 868 Registered: Mar-05 | Don't know how to put it into word Jan. I am listening to Eric Bibb right now and he's plucking away on that guitar and I cannot descirbe what you ask. I do notice a significant improvement in "transparency" and ....Jan I am sorry but I do not have any words right now. Kinda like being a kid and I just learned how to ride a bike and the older guy in the neigborhood want me to tell him how to keep my balance. No idea, just know I can hear a subtle but WIDE change in the music I am listening to. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4888 Registered: May-04 | Test ... once again. |