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Bronze Member Username: W9cwPost Number: 22 Registered: Mar-04 | I've been working on my NAD 7100X Monitor series receiver to fix some old, and recent, failures, and thought I would note who the contract manufacturer was for this 2-channel receiver. This may apply to all of the 7100 series, as well as possibly the 7400, but I can't confirm this. My 7100X was built for NAD under contract by Tatung in Taiwan. Tatung, at least at one time in the '80s, was a very large CRT monitor manufacturer in Taiwan who not only OEM'ed monitors for other companies, but also sold them under their own name. Thoughout the 7100X, and silk-screened on all of the circuit boards, appears the name Tatung. So, at least for this model, it's confirmed that NAD contracted Tatung for its production. I own a number of NAD products, and those that I own have been built either in Japan, Taiwan, or in Singapore by specific contract manufacturers. It's interesting to see the progression of manufacturing from one country to the next, and finally in China. One can only wonder where companies such as NAD will contract their production once Chinese labor costs rise to the point of pain. One Australian radio company is now having their products made in Africa! |
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A4Kenny Unregistered guest | Having worked in high volume electronics and with major international companies for over 10 years, I have also seen these changes in manufacturing. It's projected that over 50% of all electronics will be contracted out to China within the next few years as you mentioned due to low labor costs (other cost savings from materials, regulations, and duties apply as well). These benefits are even more than what you get from manufacturing in Mexico and that's why guys south of the border are afraid that they face what the U.S. has seen recently with jobs being lost overseas. From the consumer perspective, there's not any real loss in quality of the product (I've seen actual data that shows factories in China has better quality than most places for electronics). Product quality is mostly effected by product design and the quality of components that you use. I'm not at all concerned that my HK receiver is made in China since I know that it's a solid design and built with high quality components. I guess if you are an advocate for human rights and believe in "Made in the USA" then your options will be greatly limited to companies like B&K who manufacture solely the U.S. - they make great products but you sure pay a premium. |
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Bronze Member Username: W9cwPost Number: 23 Registered: Mar-04 | A4Kenny: I agree with you on the manufacturing. I've seen excellent quality control coming from contract manufacturing and factory-owned facilities in China. Look inside a Rotel which owns their facility in China, excellent work. Interestingly, I'm fighting a number of cold solder joint problems with the 7100X. Evidently, Tatung had their wave soldering machine incorrectly dialed in, or they didn't prep the boards well. Also, I have a Sony XBR TV which was manufactured at Sony's San Diego plant a number of years ago, and cold solder joints are a major problem on the main board. Thus, you can't always rely in "Made in USA" to ensure good production QC either. I used to work at a data comm manufacturer here in the USA. They produced great products with superlative quality control, but the price was certainly high. Of course, our labor costs were part-and-parcel of the cost. I also suspect the problems which NAD has seen are not necessarily due to the contract manufacturing facility, but rather design or firmware glitches. This is actually positive, as the latter two can be addressed directly. |
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Bronze Member Username: HabPost Number: 24 Registered: Feb-04 | If there is no loss in quality as contracts move from country to country, how do you explain the persisten problems NAD has had of late with receivers? I have gone through four 753's in the last two months & all have had noise problems...REAL noise problems...loud enough to hear from anywhere in a large room. This has been seen in all four receivers in my home & at the dealers store as well. The dealers says it is there (obvious & annoying were his words) but NAD keeps denying the problem. Could this be related to the changes in manufacturing? |
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Anonymous | It seems to me nad can offer value sometimes(I actually love the sound of their products)but they seem to have absolutely no respect for their customers.Case in point #1: I read a review a while back that said that an nad dvd player did not have the d/a converters it was advertised to have.#2 pauls experience above-if there is a problem with a product recall it and fix it(hello nad!-I will not buy a receiver because of your disrespect-are you happy you saved the money on the recall?you probably are but the more people like paul that tell of their experiences the more money you are losing from current AND future sales.#3-nad's refusal to admit their is a problem-I'm sure this tactic is working well for nad,as it has for others such as sony-but remember nad your not sony and you will never have the ad money that sony does and you are asking people to pay significantly more than sony for your products(in most cases).#4 there are some other posts on this site about the noise issue having to do with a mismatched and failed part being the culprit--this is most likely an r and d problem and perhaps a problem relating to using the cheapest parts(unless the chinese factory replaced the part without nad's knowledge in which case nad should find another supplier).NAD-I know it's tough to be a sucessfull business in these highly competetive times when often the cheapest audio product wins regardless of quality-but this is no way to run a company---if you were even close to the classic reliable nad I would be planning to spend at least $1000 on future products and would have already spent over a $1000 on other products-but as it is I will probably not spend a penny since I won't pay retail(why should I?I know what I want I don't need to be sold something)and I don't want to deal with any problems with your products.One more note nad-if you could design products that were built superbly-even if they were $100+ more,and even if they had slightly less features or outstanding specs I would buy them and I'm sure others would as well---or alternatively if you would ADMIT and repair any problems your products have at YOUR expense I would probably purchase an nad product.(I apolagize to those besides nad forced to read my rant but please feel free to forward these comments to nad). |
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Bronze Member Username: W9cwPost Number: 24 Registered: Mar-04 | Paul: Certainly, the choice of the contract manufacturing facility "could" have an implication on the current problem, but I seriously doubt the manufuacturing is the main culprit with NAD's current reported problems. I don't think the country of origin has anything to do with specific problems per se, but rather how the facility is set up for the production of the product. A number of other manufacturers own their production facilities regardless of the location, i.e. Rotel, Yamaha, Sony, etc, and these companies are as strict with QC as the original factories in Japan. NAD to the best of my knowledge has never actually owned any of their production facilities - they are a design and marketing company. But, then again, so are a number of other companies. Contract manufacturing is a big business in every sector of consumer electronics, and many of these companies do it extremely well. Again, I don't think the reported and documented problems with the NAD T-series A/V receivers are a function of the production process itself. It appears it is either a fundamental design problem, component choice, or a firmware problem. If the software written for programming into the EEPROM's or Flash ROM's has a glitch, it could certainly cause the problems noted by a number of posters on this forum. I think we are straying a bit away from my original intent of this thread. But, it appears this is normal as everyone voices their opionions and experiences. For what it's worth regarding the Anon post above, I know of two local NAD dealers who no longer carry the T-series A/V line because of problems. Interestingly, they have stated that they don't see any problems with NAD's 2-channel receivers or other products. If the T-series is manufactured in a separate contract manufacturing facility, this could certainly point to a production problem. But, on the other hand, A/V receivers, and their complex firmware required to decode all of the different surround modes, are different animals to simple 2-channel receivers. Rather, this may point to something other than the manufacturing process. |
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Bronze Member Username: BuckeyeshinePost Number: 78 Registered: Feb-04 | I have said it before because I personally work in this industry that Contract Manufacturing is currently one of the fastest growing manufacturing segments. It allows companies to cut cost largely by reducing their overhead. They can focus on the design and don't have to own a manufacturing facility and all of the overhead involved including line workers. It is sad but true. The way the market shifts it also allows them flexibility because they don't have to worry about dealing with facilities and people if the market changes dramatically. The Contract Manufacturer bear this burden. However, their quality levels can certainly be depndent upon the company as well as the level of capability the CM has. You usually get what you pay for in this industry. We are personally heavily involved in our manufacturing processes. As far as China, I can tell you that of the many countries I have set up manufacturing operations in, they are by far the MOST DISCIPLINED employees I have ever seen. They do not talk to each other nor even acknowledge I am there when I observe what they are doing. That is not to say you can't have poor manufacturing there but in the operations I have been involved with it is phenominal. As a side observation one of the things struck me the first time I was there several years ago was when I went to eat at Pizza Hut (yes in China). I obseved the employees in there with incredible work ethic. They were 100% focused on their work and I noticed the only time they spoke to each other was when they were discussing work and things that needed to be done. Who knows what country will be next but as suggested above, there is certainly the likelyhood it will happen. Much for the same reasons manufacturing has left Taiwan and Korea for China. One thing I can say is I have had my T773 for a few months now and I have had ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS whatsoever with it. Before I bought it I tested a T763 in my home and it was fine too with no hiss/humm issues. So while I can't deny that some have had issues here as I've said before, one cannot with any level of certainty deduce that NAD has epidemic quality problems simply from complaints posted on a forum. You simply cannot quantify these complaints against a volume of units in customer's hands. Be assured that companies are focused on warranty as it is very expensive. No company can make a product 100% perfect with ZERO warranty cost no matter how good the design and manufacturing. Keep in mind that these equipment manufacturers have many sub-tier suppliers that also provide them components. So ultimately their end product quality is also dependent upon those supplier's quality systems. Another area that good companies focus on. That being said, IMHO if NAD had an epidemic quality problem they would be weighing in the cost alternatives of warranty claims and customer satisfaction (which is difficult to attribute $$ to) against recalling units. They must have weighed a failure % along with any specific conditions that would demonstrate the defect to determine what they felt is appropriate action on product. They may even have pulled back inventory which hadn't been sold to rework if it was bad enough of a problem which would still leave customers who already purchased exposed. Be assured that for a company to actually "recall" product by going to customers is a very painful step that is rarely ever done unless it is a safety issue. In such cases they are legally motivated to do so. Depending on the nature of the problem and the failure rate it would be generally cheaper to handle a warranty claim than to recall units. These are the hard facts of the business but make no mistake about it these companies are in business to make money so financial concerns are always considered. Yes as suggested unhappy customers can certainly have a financial impact but it is difficult to put a $$ figure on that against real money to replace and repair units. I'l repeat again I have no hiss/humm issues with my 773 and I cannot hear the fans at all. Even when I put my ear up to the receiver the fans are difficult to hear like a whisper. I have to pay attention to hear them as I wouldn't notice otherwise. Paul - I am sorry to hear about your repetitive noise issues you've had. I can understand you would be frustrated as AF1 also had similar issues in his experience. From what I have read on some of these posts I wouldn't think this would be manufacturing related but probably design. I saw some posts where NAD had added a cap or something after initial production to address a noise issue (I think humm). I even recall posts where someone quoted what NAD had told them they did to fix it so I'm surprised to hear a denial by them. I could have things mixed up but I think this is right. Anyway, simply put I would NOT accept this no matter what brand it is. I would expect your Dealer to make this right one way or another. The reason I own my NAD is because I originally bought a Yamaha RX-V2400 to replace my old RX-V2092 and I had so many problems with it frying my speakers more than once that by the time we finally isolated it to the receiver I was fed up. So without question the dealer let me return the 2400 for refund without any contingency such as trading for a different brand (which he suggested first). I subsequently was recommended to listen to NAD which I was reluctant to do with many of the negative posts I've read here. So I found I had a local NAD dealer and got a very different story from him and like I said, he let me try a T763 Demo unit in my home to test it before paying anything. The 763 was actually awesome but I could swing the extra $$ so I upgraded to the T773. Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble on but these subjects are rather personal to me because I work in the industry and I almost overlooked NAD just because of negative forum posts. I'm glad I gave them a chance. I hope you resolve your issues Paul. Keep us posted. And if my T773 goes south on me you can assure I'll be here posting as that is what most of this forum is about. Those seeking recommendations as well as help and solutions to problems. |
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Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 262 Registered: Dec-03 | Every time I read one of these postings that seem to imply that just because something is made in China...it must be crap...I am reminded of a quote from one of my favorite movies...Back to the Future. I haven't seen the movie in awhile so I am usure as to the exact circumstances of this quote...but the idea is still the same. As the "Doc" from 1955 is looking through some of Marty's "futuristic" gadgets (such as a video camera), he notices that one device which happened to be malfunctioning (I can't remember for the life of me what he was looking at) was "Made in Japan"...and the "Doc" commented "Well no wonder this thing doesn't work, it says "Made in Japan". Marty replies "All the best stuff is made in Japan"! And even now that is out of date since now some of the best stuff has even out grown Japan and is now made in China! Don't discount something because of where it is made. In today's global economy, it is very hard to get products that aren't made in some other country. |
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Bronze Member Username: HabPost Number: 25 Registered: Feb-04 | I certainly appreciate all of the comments/advice offered here...thanks very much. I have read on several posts that NAD's problems started when they changed their manufacturing to China so I was just suggesting that possibility. Whatever the reason, NAD needs to own up to this & either fix or replace receivers that are not up to scratch & from my experience (read post above about four bad 753's in a row) that is not the case. It has been said here by many others that have the same problem that NAD knows it exists but their policy seems to be deny deny deny. That seems a strange policy for an upscale line. I know it seems like NAD is getting a bad name from these boards but I guess that is what they are for, to post experiences, & that is all I am doing. The sound is superior to anything in its price range as I have said before. But that dosen't justify what they are doing. The reason for the problem shouldn't be my concern, only that the money I paid should get me a unit that works properly. |
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Bronze Member Username: SeamusPost Number: 22 Registered: Feb-04 | Paul, Your bad experience with the 753's is certainly unfortunate. However, I've had a different experience with NAD acknowledging the dreaded noise issue. Alarmed by the regular posts here of users experiencing a constant hiss and hum, I wrote to NAD to enquire. They accepted that the first few units (shipped to Europe) did have the problem, but it had been rectified. So it's not as if the company's blind to the problems or is completely denying their existence. I even sent them a link to one of the threads here. I don't own a NAD as yet, so can't comment from personal in-house experience. But I have been auditioning the 753 & 763 receivers for some time now at quite a few dealers (trying to swing the WAF, but that's another story). I have not encountered any hiss or hum as yet. In fact, going by a suggestion on an earlier thread here, I make it a point to pause a Dolby DVD and listen to the speakers - up close with my ear pressed up to them. But I have only heard silence (disregarding the white noise of course). The dealers probably think I'm mad for doing so. I'm not trying to say that there is no problem, only that I don't think it is widespread and the company is aware of it and taking (or has taken) steps to ensure that it is rectified. They can't afford not to. |
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asimo Unregistered guest | Don Allen I have NAD Monitor 7000 Receiver for 12 years now and it works perfectly. I think that it is one of the best receivers NAD had produced, mine was made in Taiwan. During these years I changed my CD player and speakers but not the NAD receiver. I even tried the new NAD C350 integrated amplifier but I think that my Monitor 7000 receiver is equals or better My stereo set : NAD Monitor 7000 receiver NAD C541 CD player Mission 751f speakers I would like to have your impression from the sound of your NAD Monitor 7100. You can see more details in Message Board > Home Audio > Amps > Nad c542, Nad c350, Kef Q5...... |
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Bronze Member Username: W9cwPost Number: 25 Registered: Mar-04 | Johnny: If anything with this post, I tried to imply that Chinese manufacturing can be exceptional. Note my comment regarding the Sony XBR TV made in Sony's San Diego, CA facility . . . I think it's not so much the country of origin per se, but the choice of the individual manufacturing facility that is critical. Asimo: I really love my 7100X Monitor-series receiver. However, it has had more than it share of problems, unlike several Classic-series receivers I also own. Here is a short list of the problems (past or recent): 1). Intermittent speaker relay problems. Unfortunately, NAD no longer stocks the relays, so I have been doing my best to keep them working properly. This relay problem is a common one with this series of receiver. 2). Significant problems with the Remote/Display circuit board, and its associated circuitry. NOTE: Unlike the Classic-series where everything is "hard switched," the 7100X switches everything, including power, via logic circuits. This is because it has a remote control. I've had a number of problems with cold solder joints on this board, as well as component failures. 3). Intermittent AM operation. There is an intermittent problem on the Tuner Board in the AM circuity. Sometimes the AM section works, somtimes not . . . but, I'm not too worried about this as I seldom use the AM section of the tuner anyway. When the receiver works, it is beautiful. But, maybe I just got one with problems - the luck of the draw! It's frustrating, as I take exceptional care of all my electronics equipment. Most, if not all, look as if they just came out of the box. I've had exceptional experience with NAD's Customer Service, and they have always bent backwards to try to help me once the units were out of warranty. |
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Bronze Member Username: Gatt767Malta Post Number: 32 Registered: Feb-04 | I think one should not generalise, within my HT system, I have had a T750 upgraded to a T751 and currently I have upgraded to a T762. Plus I have a NAD C540 and a T531 DVD player. All gave and are giving a magnificant Service. I have had other brands within my AV setup and all had there fair share of problems, including a High end Samsung DVD player which had several firmware probs pickup failures, etc. etc. |
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ron Unregistered guest | Don-I have an nad power amp and the speakers will go out after the amp is left on for awhile with no music playing-is that the speaker relays?If so how do I fix this or replace the relays?The amp is about 5yr old model.I have to turn the amp on and off to get it to work. |
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Bronze Member Username: W9cwPost Number: 26 Registered: Mar-04 | Ron: It could be the relays, or it may be something else entirely. E-mail me directly at: w9cw@intergate.com I will be happy to try to help you. Also, pse give me the model number of the amp. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 672 Registered: Dec-03 | "Whatever the reason, NAD needs to own up to this & either fix or replace receivers that are not up to scratch" In my experience, it does. There are number of threads here attesting to NAD customer service, and I have found it to be exemplary. Dealers and regional distributors may not always see things the same way, it can be difficult getting through to the right person, but NAD itself will certainly do an awful lot for individual customers, even with non-current models. I am completely with JDG on this. As regards the whole question of contract manufacturing for audio equipment, including "human rights" issues (A4Kenny April 16), there is an interesting web site www.audiopartnership.com I have never visited China, but would like to. Some European friends who have visited in recent months have come back quite wowed by what they see, especially in Shanghai and Beijing. Some excellent scientific research has come out of Beijing in recent years. One recent case I know of is a technically demanding project that has been slightly in the doldrums for ten years in one of the top research labs in Europe, and an "unknown" laboratory in Beijing has just blown them away; what they have done, in itself, is wonderful. I suspect NAD has always been CM, right back to 1984, when it started. Hope this is not derailing your thread, Don! BTW, what is a "cold solder joint problem"? Just the original job not being done at high enough temperature? |
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Silver Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 117 Registered: Feb-04 | John A. don't know if you seen it or not but your 533 review has been posted on ecoustics.com's front page. Congrats!....now back on topic. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 673 Registered: Dec-03 | AIRFORCE, Many thanks! Yes, I've seen it. I am pleased also that admin took up my suggestion, which followed, to create a new topic category "DVD-Audio & SACD" under "Home Audio", where DVD-Audio really belongs. Take a look. Talking about "off topic" there is a long thread there mostly about beer, but hey, it's the posters who decide where threads go.... I know you have been through all these NAD service and hum issues mentioned above on this thread. A few words from you would count for something in this thread, I am sure. Your experience and others' made me very vigilant with the NAD T533 player. Thanks! I can now discount even the very small "buzz and hiss" I mentioned in the review - and it was never an issue whilst listening/playing a disc, anyway. It now seems to have gone completely. I am will post back on that thread, and nail that, after I can work out where the problem went! Maybe there is a "breaking in" period but I am usually very sceptical about those, as you know. Yes, back to Don's topic. All I say, in this context, is that I worried a bit, but did not let these issues stop me getting the NAD T533. I am very pleased. It is a terrific player. I have a lot of trust in NAD, both for quality products and customer service, and in my case that is not earned easily. If they ever let me down then I'll certainly let people here know all about it. All the best. |
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Bronze Member Username: Gatt767Malta Post Number: 34 Registered: Feb-04 | Yes, thats good, What about the thousands of NAD Products sold which did not give any prob? |
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jan vigne Unregistered guest | Just very quickly, yes, a cold solder joint is a soldered connection that does not completely make a solid connection between the two parts that are meant to be joined. Usually caused by not enough solder being applied, poor preparation or cleaning of surfaces, not enough heat being transmitted to the components (a very difficult task with many of today's electronics)hence the name "cold" solder or movement of the surfaces as the solder is cooling. It can be a technician's nightmare because problems can exist only under certain conditions and are usually intermittent particularly as the components heat and cool. The problems that exist in NAD have been well documented here and in other forums but my experience is almost every manufacturer who is trying to compete for a shrinking profit margin in an ever expanding competitive field has a run of similar problem control issues at one time or another. Until you are paying the prices where components are tested and tested and tested again before they get to the end consumer companies have to deal with these types of issues. The best deal with them well and leave with satisfied customers and the rest just disappear. |