Want better sounding speakers.......Just try these...........
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 39 Registered: Jul-05 | http://www.echoloft.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=hifigeneral&action=display&n um=1124249404 |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 184 Registered: Apr-05 | No, thanks. I don't want anything in my system that becomes part of and effects the negative feedback loop. If you want better sounding speakers, BUY better engineered speakers. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 40 Registered: Jul-05 | Here's something else I tried that improved the sound of my speakers and it was only $5.00. Two 17.5" by 17.5" inverted ceramic floor tiles, just put one tile under each speaker. I have a carpeted floor and these tiles made rock-solid stability for my speakers too. Give this very cheap tweak a try and hear what you been missing out on all this time! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6196 Registered: May-04 | I am at a loss as to what the floor tiles will accomplish. If they are placed on a carpeted floor, they are still subject to the "sponginess" of the carpet beneath them. That is the purpose of spikes; they pierce the carpet and sit on the floor instead of on the soft carpet. I don't see much point between putting my speaker on a tile on the carpet and just putting my speaker on the carpet. If the speaker rocks, on the tile or off the tile, the sound is likely to be compromised. PB - If the amp utilizes global feedback, any speaker attached to its outputs will be included in, and affect, the feedback loop. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 41 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul, I was using spikes attached to my speakers too on top of the tiles. You can hear a nice improvement......more 3-Dimensional....tighter bass......better mids and highs too. I am now using Mi-Rollers on the tiles and the improvements are even better now. You can get Demo Brass Mi-Rollers,jr. for $5.00 each. I told Rick Becker about these Mi-Rollers and here is the review on them http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1004/mirollers.htm |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6207 Registered: May-04 | I am at a loss as to what the floor tiles will accomplish. If they are placed on a carpeted floor, they are still subject to the "sponginess" of the carpet beneath them. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 42 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, this one of those things where you have to try it to believe it kind of thing.......just try it, I think your be amazed just like me...... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6220 Registered: May-04 | I'm already amazed. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6221 Registered: May-04 | Have been for a long time. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 187 Registered: Apr-05 | Almost every amplifier has a set amount of negative feedback. The amount of feedback varies greatly from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer. One is left wondering how Diakom can "improve" the sound taking into account all those variables, doesn't one? Feedback affects frequency response, THD, TIM, amplifier stability and overall sound quality greatly. I have no doubt that these "stabilizers" will CHANGE the sound. I have serious doubts they will improve it. Do you have any measured test results/ third party verified you can provide the forum showing the "improvements"? |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 43 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul no, I don't think anyone that has these stabilizers has posted any measurements on them but they really did improve the sound for the better in my system. You know, they do give you 30 days to try them out and they have free shipping both ways if you try them and don't like them because these stabilizers are not going to sound great in every system out there. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6228 Registered: May-04 | Reporting in: still amazed! |
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Anonymous | I own a Bose Acoustimass 15 system and tried out Richard's suggestions. I'll be damned if they don't sound 1000 times better now. My buddy who owns B&W Nautilus speakers was blown away by the quality of my setup. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 44 Registered: Jul-05 | Very Funny...... |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 655 Registered: Nov-04 | anony has a point |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 45 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, are YOU still AMAZED?....... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6232 Registered: May-04 | I'll check and get back with you. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 46 Registered: Jul-05 | Here's something else that will AMAZE you.....Deep Cryo'd Fast-Blow ceramic fuses from Cryo-Parts for $5.75 each, they will soon have Slow-Blow fuses too...... http://www.cryo-parts.com/oddsends.html http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/123365.html |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 188 Registered: Apr-05 | Richard, can we stop with the fly by ads please? This is a forum, not an advertising section. I e-mailed Diakom about the claims they make on the stabilizers. Guess what? No response. Nothing. Companies who promise the moon but won't reply to e-mails don't equate to confidence inspiring companies in my mind. Then again, I might just be old fashioned. I actually expect a response to a letter, be it snail mail or electronic mail and consider it rude and un-professional when I don't get a reply. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 47 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul, these are products that I use and believe in. And Paul sometimes it takes a few days for Dakiom to get back to you.....they stay very busy. |
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Anonymous | "Paul, these are products that I use and believe in. " Along with your mighty SDAT's right? |
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Anonymous | who uses SDATS? those speakers are nothing but a wanna-be. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 48 Registered: Jul-05 | Those SDAT speakers sound DAMN good after a few upgrades. All my friends own them now too....... |
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Anonymous | Did you wrap them in a Hefty bag and put them in your freezer overnight too? |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 49 Registered: Jul-05 | No, I put more dampening inside the cabinets and I put a rubber gasket under the top mounted tweeters and QuickSilver contact enhancer on all crossover network's soider joints.....you know, people make fun of my freezer tweak then they try it on one of their CD's and find out that it really does work.....TALK IS CHEAP......... |
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Anonymous | |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 50 Registered: Jul-05 | SDAT SPEAKER are real sleepers!................... |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 189 Registered: Apr-05 | "Paul, these are products that I use and believe in. And Paul sometimes it takes a few days for Dakiom to get back to you.....they stay very busy" I guess so.....I e-mailed them over a year ago. How long should I expect to wait for a reply, Richard? |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 51 Registered: Jul-05 | Some people use these ceramic tiles to tighten up the bass in their subwoofers and if you want even better performance just try Granite blocks.... |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 656 Registered: Nov-04 | way to not answer paul b.'s question rich. i think by now we can all count on you to bring up things completely unrelated. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 52 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul, when I sent a E-mail to Dakiom they always got back to me in 2 or 3 days. Paul, what did you say in your E-mail to Dakiom? |
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Anonymous | Jan: Am amazed that you have so little else going on in life that you've been able to post more than 6200 mostly fact-free messages. My guess is, your wife (or life-partner) must love sharing you with the eCoustics community. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6268 Registered: May-04 | I am amazed you could read 6200 posts and even more amazed you could not find any facts in any of them. |
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Bronze Member Username: Wolf_houndPost Number: 57 Registered: Sep-05 | Why do you guys even bother to listen to jan he seems like a whiner i've seen posts in the suggestions forum clogged up mostly by jan If you dont like the people here just ignore them save the 5 minutes of your life and laugh at them for being stup!d. Jan IGNORE good god. This is why i stay in the caraudio forum over here nothing but losers. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 658 Registered: Nov-04 | julian, your enlightening posts has changed my views. if you werent such a noob then maybe you would know better. go back to the car forum. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 53 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, have tried some of those ceramic tiles or freezed one of your CD's yet or are you thinking about giving one those Cryo'd ceramic fuses a try?..... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6272 Registered: May-04 | At the moment I'm considering going to the source and disconnecting all the Romex from the service panel and placing it in the freezer. |
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Anonymous | Richard: Is there a specific, at least semi-scientific reason that you believe freezing a CD makes a difference in what you hear? |
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shamu chef 2 Unregistered guest | Psychology is a science isn't it. If the effect is psychological, then that would make it scientific, wouldn't it. Just get your self Bose and be happy. |
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Anonymous | When I get home from work, I park my car on granite blocks - it has made the Bose system in my car sound AWESOME! |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 54 Registered: Jul-05 | Anonymous, Cryo treatment is the weakest link for our components just like room treatment is the weakest link for our speakers. The Freezer tweak is the poor man's way to some of the effects of cryo treatment but with the freezer tweak you have to keep refreezing it every 6 months or so to keep those effects too. A good way to get a taste of cryo treatment is to just try one of these cryo'd ceramic fuses.....its takes about a week for the fuse to break-in good too |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 662 Registered: Nov-04 | thats still pretty unscientific and general. nobody here has any reason to believe in your supposed tweeks. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 55 Registered: Jul-05 | Like I said before.....anyone that trys these cryo'd ceramic fuses will get a good taste of the effects of cryo treatment.....TALK IS CHEAP! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6277 Registered: May-04 | $5.75 per fuse is not cheap. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6278 Registered: May-04 | Richard - IT'S A FRIGGIN' FUSE! I have no problem with tweaks, but $5.75 for a fuse is stupid! It is not in the signal path and the amount of "tweaking" that should go on before a special fuse is of value is rather high in most estimations. The value of so many things with larger importance to the operation of the equipment should be placed well above a frozen fuse. I appreciate that you think these "tips" are of value, but the frozen fuse is what gives audiophiles such a bad reputation among "normal" people. Since you've not given any explanation to my question regarding tiles placed on top of the spongy carpet either, it also qualifies as "give me a break" even if it does change the sound for your system. Most tweaks have a basis in logic. Spikes have a basis in logic. The effects of spongy carpets have a basis in logic. The effects of placing speakers on top of tiles on top of spongy carpets has no basis in logic that I can come up with. Turning my speakers around to face the wall changes the sound. Doing so isn't logical either. If you want to pass on some tweaks, there should be some idea why we should bother before anyone starts changing things just for the sake of changing things. As with so many tweaks over the years, changing the sound is often not an improvement, just a change. Answer one question for me, Richard. When was the last time you heard live music performed? |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 663 Registered: Nov-04 | i see that you have nothing intelligent to add rich. whose talk is cheap? |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 664 Registered: Nov-04 | jan, i dont think it matters when the last time was. even if he is an avid music listener, he wont even attempt to explain why a cryogenically frozen fuse worsk better than a regular one, or for that matter frozen anything works better than how every other person in the world does. rich, do you even know anything about physics or E/M? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6284 Registered: May-04 | CL - I have no doubts about cryogenics; that part of the idea is fairly well accepted as a technique to alter the molecular structure of many items. Here are some links to the process and the claims. http://www.300below.com/ http://www.nitrofreeze.com/ It does have an affect of semiconductors and conductors of all sorts and types. I do have a problem with the idea placing a CD in my freezer along side the pot roast dinner at 0° is going to accomplish even roughly the same alteration of molecular structure as a CD that has been placed in a temperature of -320°. Also the level of tweakdom is a bit bothersom as many of the times people chase the wrong thing in "changing" their system's sound quality. Little things add up and do make a difference and hopefully that difference is an improvement - unfortunately many times it is just a difference. I am a definite proponent of room treatment tweaks. Richard, you've lost some credence with your speakers no matter what you think of them. If you tell me you've done nothing to the larger issue of your room acoustics but you're recommending frozen fuses and CD's as a tweak, you've lost me all together. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 665 Registered: Nov-04 | thanks jan. i much rather would have heard it from rich. i agree with what you say. i still think rich is too ignorant to try and make his own explaination. oh well. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 666 Registered: Nov-04 | ok, i briefly looked over the sites. first is only auto parts so that is unfortunately unrelated to hifi. cant imagine how cryo disk brakes will have anything to do with hifi. the other site had no mention of home audio applications so i am still unconvinced about the viability of cryo treated home audio items. if conductors or semiconductors were cooled to the point of super conductivity then maybe i would think something of it. again, i think rich doesnt quite have what it takes to back up any of his claims. he probably reads this stuff somewhere and takes it for fact. i agree, room acoustics would have a much bigger impact than any equipment tweeks. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6288 Registered: May-04 | Changes occur in the microstructure of metal as a result of deep cryogenic treatment. These desirable changes are why many knife and sword makers use this process as it gives metal a more uniform hardness and greater dimensional stability, due to the conversion of austenite (large unstable particles of carbon carbide, resulting in a large grained lattice structure) to martensite (fine grained lattice structure). But what do swords have to do with audio? Not much...but the same basic principles apply. When copper, silver, or brass, or any metal used in audio, is formed into cables or AC plugs, the materials develop residual stress. For example, microscopic examination of the copper in an AC cord would reveal many voids in the crystal lattice structure of the copper due to these residual stresses. Deep cryogenic treatment works at the atomic level; as the temperature decreases the atomic bonds start to weaken and the crystal structure of copper reverts to its original state. In addition, the surface of the metal becomes much smoother, ensuring a much better fit between metal pieces." http://www.cryo-parts.com/company.html |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 56 Registered: Jul-05 | I see you all have been busy here......I think my SDAT speakers sound just fine thank you...The Freezer tweak is not as good as Cryo treatment but it does give some of these effects....All someone here has to do is just try one of these Cryo'd ceramic fuses and all the talk will be over! I know its very hard to believe but this tweak really works....you only need to try one to find out! If these tweaks did not work....I sure would'nt post them on these forums! Just talking about this is not going to prove anything............. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 190 Registered: Apr-05 | Richard, SDATS? Weren't you just pushing GR Research? https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/166359.html Is Richard "Tawaun"? |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 57 Registered: Jul-05 | No, I'm not Tawaun...... I seen that thread on the GR-Reseach speakers over on the Audio Circles forum....I'm a forum member over there too. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 667 Registered: Nov-04 | yea jan, but you are talking about metals. but what does that do in terms of hifi? how is that going to make any difference in a fuse or any other component? i dont mean to say that nothing can, but this is a bit of a stretch to me. I also still dont see the application to CDs which are mainly plastics. richard, you lose what little credibility you have with each new post. talking about things proves alot. find me something written by someone with some degree of intelligence about these so called tweeks of yours. explain to me what causes the "benifits" that you seem to be observing. i mean try doing something other than babbling. if you cant back up something dont talk about it or push it. if you dont know a thing about what you are talking about, then admit it and we can all take you for a fool. stop trying to act like you know something and brush direct questions off. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 58 Registered: Jul-05 | The only way your ever find out that these tweaks really works or not is to try them out....There's your PROOF! Talk is just Talk.....PROOF is, trying it out for yourself!.... |
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Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 833 Registered: Dec-03 | Richard, What kind of tweaks do you recommend for sdat? Do all models sound good, or only the higher more expensive ones? Thanks, I am going to try all of your tweaks - thanks a lot for sharing them with us. |
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cello stan Unregistered guest | Wowzers, what a nice little thread you guys have here. Anyways, I liked the Talk is cheap challenge. Gave it the benefit of the doubt and tried it last night. what could it hurt, right? Richard, it does not work...now what? Next you'll be saying I did not do it right or probably something is wrong with my ears. Obviously it will come down to everything else being my fault. Now what, Rich...what do I do next. Your suggestion did not work, there are no improvements to the sound. I didn't even hear any difference. Where is the PROOF? I don't hear it? |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 668 Registered: Nov-04 | wonderful words there richard. you should go for a nobel prize. i think my point has been proven multiple times. no need to further embarass you. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6292 Registered: May-04 | Talk being cheap ... Rich, when was the last time you listened to live music and what "major" tweaks have you done to your system other than repairing your speakers. Rich, I went back to check what you did on your speakers. Here's the statement, "I put more dampening inside the cabinets and I put a rubber gasket under the top mounted tweeters and QuickSilver contact enhancer on all crossover network's soider joints." Now, Rich, you get to do whatever you want with your speakers; but contact enhancer is not meant for soldered connections. It is meant to improve the contact between non-soldered connections where there is some chance of oxidation in a gas permeable connection. A well made solder joint is not permeable, and is gas tight, and therefore is not going to let the fluid do anything other than sit on top of the connection. If you heard any improvement from putting contact enhancer on the top of a solder joint, Rich, you once again have lost me for believing anything you say. The idea that you think this will make an improvement leads me to be skeptical of most of your claims. Even desoldering the connection and then putting contact enhancer on the joint is worthless if you then solder the connection back as it was. And, if you didn't resolder, you are in a very poor state of misunderstanding concerning the functions of 1) connections, 2) solder, 3) contact enhancers and 4) tweaks. Rich, it's not that I don't believe in tweaks, but I'm begining to think you are chasing tweaks and thinking anything you do is beneficial no matter what the results. And about that tile sitting on top of spongy carpet; what explanation do you have for that? |
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John Wagner Unregistered guest | I tried Richard's ceranic tile tweak and I heard a improvement that was better. Richard's right , it does tighten the bass and the music is more enjoyable now. I also have the same speakers that Richard has , SDAT sb-e639 and they sound great! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6297 Registered: May-04 | JW - Had you been using spikes or any other type of device to stabilize and mechanically ground the speakers? Or, had you just been placing the speakers on top of the carpet? |
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cello stan Unregistered guest | Rich - I'm still waiting for an answer. Now what? Did you leave? Have you been driven out? And how is the contact enhancer going to work on the solder joints when said enhancer cannot penetrate the solered joints? Isn't a solder joint a solid connection? Do they work via osmosis and somehow enhance the flow of current? Oh and by the way I invited some musician buddies of mine who listen to my equipment regularly and they use their own recorded music. Our purpose was to critique our performances and recordings. I did not tell them about the tweaks, just so they are not influenced and yet no one mentioned anything different or better. What gives? Rich, where are you? I need answers, man! |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 59 Registered: Jul-05 | Sorry, I have been out of town.... First let me say that all my friends are using this ceramic tile tweak in their system and they are also using Mi-Rollers under their speakers and components with tiles under their components too. They all heard tighter bass and more 3-dimensional with this tile tweak added to their system......This tweak really does work! |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 191 Registered: Apr-05 | I would think that the ceramic tile would resonate at certain frequencies. Stick with spikes folks. And good STURDY stands. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6306 Registered: May-04 | Hey, Rich, now that you're back, please answer my questions. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 60 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, I even did not believe that putting contact enhancer on solder joints would do anything until I tried it! The last time I listen to live music was 20 years ago but no matter what you to your system or how much money you spend you will never get close to live music with a stereo system. They was talking about this over on the audio asylum.... http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/405875.html |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 678 Registered: May-05 | I honestly believe that Richard has heard noticible improvements with every tweak he mentions. Why? Because SDATS are by far the second worst speakers I've ever heard. Side by side, they ever so slightly beat out my old (now my brother in law's) White Van Special 1987 "Becker" 12.3's. From my experience with SDAT's, ANYTHING would be an improvement. If I were to do a blind A/B test, I highly doubt I'd be able to tell the difference. I'd bet filling the cabinets with broken glass would improve the sound. A brief note about the Becker speakers - Knowing nothing about home audio, my father bought them from the jokers because he was used to seeing the real Becker systems in all of the Mercedes cars he worked on - he owns a foreign car garage. He thought they were stolen, and gave the guys $150 for two pairs. They are hollow plywood boxes with with a 12" woofer, two horns, and no crossover. The horns have never worked, even though they are wired up. I've put my ears against them and can't hear anything coming out of them. I've taken them apart, and they do have a 2" paper driver in the plactic enclosure of the horn, just like Bose uses. They've been passed around the family to be used as an outdoor party speaker. This seems to be their best suited environment. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 61 Registered: Jul-05 | Thats odd Stu because......the SDAT speakers that I have give you that warmth of the older designs and very smooth top end......they are not overly bright like a lot speakers are and has a very natureal presentation....... |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 672 Registered: Nov-04 | rich, you are truly an idiot. |
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Anonymous | I took a dump inside the cabinet of my SDATs and I swear it made the bass tighter and made imaging more precise. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 680 Registered: May-05 | Rich - my point was that I found the SDAT's so bad (not sure about the model, but a tower speaker) that any tweak would have to be an improvement. They have no where to go but up. Like I said, filling the cabinet with broken glass would probably be an improvement. I haven't compared the SDAT's directly against my PSB towers (Image T55's), but I did A/B the PSB's against the Becker's to prove to many people why they should put a few dollars into their stereo. Remember, the Becker's very hard to differentiate from the SDAT's to me and just about everyone else who's heard them side by side. The SDAT's have just about as many holes in their frequency response as a 50 lb block of swiss cheese. This may not be appearant to many people (kind of like Bose speakers) until you A/B them against even an average speaker, let alone a $900 pair of well designed speakers. While I think the SDAT's are worth their $100-$200 price tag, as are the Becker's, they aren't worth a penny more. These speakers make my PSB's (considered by many to be a great "budget" speaker) sound like $40,000 B&W Nautilus speakers in A/B comparison. Just my opinions though, I'm sure your's will be different. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 681 Registered: May-05 | "I took a dump inside the cabinet of my SDATs and I swear it made the bass tighter and made imaging more precise." LMAO!!!! It probably helped absorb the cabinet vibrations and resonance. I'd keep up the good work and give a full review - minus the appearance and smell - after a few weeks. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2051 Registered: Feb-05 | Great posts Stu! Actually some of these tweaks really are effective and most audiopiles use some form of isolation and resonance dampening. I use kitty litter (not used) in my speaker stands. I also use Vibrapods and bought ceramic feet for my CD player (chose to go with the pods for now). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6310 Registered: May-04 | Rich - You are loosing me very, very quickly. Yes, it does matter if you listen to live music. You are left comparing one system to another system with no reference for what is real. That lets you believe everything is an "improvement" when there is nothing but your imagination to compare against. Sorry, Rich. I think you need to rethink, or possibly even think for the first time, about some of your tweaks. Tell me you did something to your room acoustics other than some bizarre scheme you read about on the internet and you might get me interested again. Explain why and how some of the things you think are improvements (like contact enhancer on solder joints) can possibly work and I might keep reading. Otherwise, Rich, you're wasting my, and your own, time. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 673 Registered: Nov-04 | jan i would give it up. rich is obviously missing a whole box of screws in his head. i doubt he has any basic understanding of science so even if he wanted to no explaination would be possible. rich is probably the kind of person buying a $5 faucet and spending $20 to make it "work" better. leave him be. he is really a retard. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 685 Registered: May-05 | Art - I think certain tweaks can make be very effective. It also seems that the better the equipment is, the less effective some tweaks are. Sometimes they can have an adverse effect. My old apartment had carpeted floors and I spiked my speakers. My new apartment has hard wood floors that my landlord labored quite extensively over. I wouldn't want to ruin the floors for my own gain. Spiking them would make an easily audible gain, but I can live with the rubber feet on them. Another example of a great tweak is my turntable mat. I thought it wouldn't make a difference, but it was definately worth the $50 refundable price tag. My static problem and noise floor are now a distant memory. Even my wife noticed how clicks and pops are just about gone on beat up lp's. They are practically non-existant on better ones. I'm still convinced that the thing couldn't have cost more than $5-$10 to make though. I'm interested in the Vibrapods and ceramic feet. To me it seems like voodoo science on components other than analog sources. Do you know of any good non-commercial links that explain how/why they work? The only ones I've found are from the manufacturers, and you've got to take what they say with a grain of salt. If you listen to the manufacturers, somehow their products are the best thing since sliced bread. They'd have you believe that by using their product, it'll make a $200 component sound as good as a $2000 one. While I'd think Vibrapods may make my cd player sound better, it would most likely be subtle at best. What's your take on them? |
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lol Unregistered guest | I personally think that the ideal tweak that richard should try is as follows: He should bounce on a MartinLogan and see if it sounds better before or after. However, Im certain that he wouldnt mind a couple thousand volts up his ar$e either :-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2054 Registered: Feb-05 | "I think certain tweaks can make be very effective. It also seems that the better the equipment is, the less effective some tweaks are. Sometimes they can have an adverse effect." Not sure I agree with the first part of that, but I definitely agree with the last part. I have fairly decent gear and I swear by the Vibrapods. My friend who owns Theta, Mark Levinson, etc also swears by them. "Do you know of any good non-commercial links that explain how/why they work?" You have to remember Stu, I'm one of those people who don't care why as long as it works. I would email the manufacturer, maybe they can point you to an independent source of info. I use them on all of my gear. They clearly have an audible effect on all of it. Sometimes the difference is subtle but all improvements are welcome, especially at that price. Great cheap tweak. What turntable mat did you get Stu? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6316 Registered: May-04 | If your speakers have a T-nut installed for a spike, you can substitute a threaded nylon ball. Most auto parts shops have such items as do most well stocked hardware stores. The ball acts much like the spike by contacting the floor at a tangent only thus minimizing the contact area and maximizing the amount of weight per square inch. Like a spike, the ball will act as a mechanical diode allowing vibration to drain in one direction only. As with spikes, the speaker should feel as if it is locked down to the floor once the balls are adjusted. Of course, you could also just place a quarter under each spike. It is not as convenient as the nylon balls if you must move the speaker, but less expensive. Ball bearings sized to just fit the "cup" of the T-nut will also accomplish the same thing. The round shape allows a minimum of contact area. There is, of course, no levelling function with just ball bearings. The Vibrapods are working in much the same manner as spikes with the exception of the compliance of the footers. They do, however, form a mechanical diode that will allow vibration to travel in only one direction. Under items such as digital transports, they are meant to drain energy from the player whether it is generated by the mechanics of the player or the vibration of the power transformer down to the supporting shelf. The small footprint of the footer will not allow vibration to enter from the support up through the footer. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 62 Registered: Jul-05 | Another tweak that will improve your system is to get all your cables 6 inches off the floor...... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6320 Registered: May-04 | Are you getting this stuff from "tweak of the day"? |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | I had mine 7 inches off the floor and there was no difference - no wonder, I had 'em an inch too high! |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 676 Registered: Nov-04 | like ive been saying....he is a retard. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 63 Registered: Jul-05 | When you add 3 or 4 of these tweaks to your system it gets you a big improvement! You know, some tweaks really do work but they are some that has been "BRAIN WASHED" and ARE "CLOSED MINDED"! You have to have an "OPEN MIND" when trying these tweaks AND when you put them in your system it takes a few days to hear the "FULL EFFECTS"!!............ |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 677 Registered: Nov-04 | im sorry i was wrong. brainwashed retard. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6323 Registered: May-04 | "You have to have an "OPEN MIND" when trying these tweaks AND when you put them in your system it takes a few days to hear the "FULL EFFECTS"!!............" Tweaks have a break in period?! RICHARD! For god's sake, think about what you are posting. Raising the wires off the floor does not require a break in period. Putting floor tiles under your speakers does not require a break in period. Freezing your CD's does not require a break in period! What does require a break in period is the time it takes for you to forget what the system sounded like before you changed anything and what it sounds like now. That is, the time it takes for you to convince your self something you changed made a difference. And a difference is all you can claim, Richard. You are not claiming to make the system sound more realistic - just different. Please. Richard, stop sniffing the contact enhancer and think about what you are doing and posting. Tell you what, Rich; here's a tweak from "The Wood Effect", which was popular back in the 1990's. It's for real and you can test it, if you like. Take anyand all CD's with a dark colored cover; it gets opened and laid on a shelf with the CD jewel case open. The difference is far greater than suspending your cables. I'm not joking, this is a for real tweak suggestion. Try it. I don't think this takes a few days to break in, but your hearing might not be as accute as others who have detected the change. Let us know what you think. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6325 Registered: May-04 | BTW, lest anyone think I'm making this tweak up to screw with Richard, "The Wood Effect" is for real. It was, to my recollection, the first to suggest raising cables above the carpeting to reduce static electric charges between the nylon materials in most modern carpets and the dielectric of the cables. http://www.vansevers.com/appendix.html Check out what should be number 3 under "useful Books". I am not making this up. And finally, to keep Richard busy for a while with his need for amazing tweaks: http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=the%20wood%20effect%20audio%20tweaks http://www.odysseyaudio.com/setup_tweak.html http://www.pandathumbaudio.com/vibration.htm http://www.chicagoaudio.org/links_t-t.htm http://www.cognitivevent.com/sandbox.html (This tweak is very real and very effective.) I can't speak for everything on these pages; but most of the tweaks suggested here have some basis in reality and an explanation for how and why they work. Read the tweak and you can often make up your own mind regarding whether a tweak is right for your system and worth the time and effort spent trying the tweak. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 692 Registered: May-05 | Art - I got Herbie's Way Excellent Turntable Mat. It works pretty well and has audible effects. My only problem was that it cost $50 for what looks like a $5-$10 at most product to make. Sound wise, it is worth the $50 price tag to me. It also has a lifetime warantee, but what the hell is going to happen to a turntable mat? I guess I have to wait and see. Jan - As usual, thanks for the info. I have a few concerns with the nylon balls and quarters though. Won't the nylon ball leave a dent in the floor rather than a hole? From a physics stand point, that is a lot of PSI, especially because the speakers weigh about 50 lbs a piece. Also, won't the quarter leave an imprint? Another thing is that it isn't perfectly flat. Will the spikes slip somewhat on them, and/or do they vibrate at all? I've come up with a solution that I think will address my situation - What about a small 1" thick wooden block under each spike? I was thinking about getting a larger single square for each speaker, but if it's not perfectly flat or if the floor isn't perfectly level, the speaker could rock on it. Do you think eight 3"x3"x1" oak blocks would give me virtually the same effect as if the speakers were spiked to the floor? |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 64 Registered: Jul-05 | Getting your cables off the floor does improve your system!.....I use a large cup and put silicone rubber on the bottom and around the top lid and then put the lid of the cup on top of a small ceramic tile.....all these tweaks sound better after a few days..........Yes...BREAK-IN time |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 694 Registered: May-05 | Is the cup 6 inches tall? How long does the cup take to break in? Any differences with different materials and/or shapes? What about filling the cups with diferent liquids? I've had great success with filling large plastic cups (look like beer mugs) with Tide laundry detergent. Try not to use extra strength Tide though, your sound can come out a little too bright. Downy worked well too, but my sound was a little too soft. I also tried pint glasses filled with Guinness. They didn't last very long. The glass was ringing, and the Guinness was calling my name... |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 65 Registered: Jul-05 | I used a large plastic cup but material made of ceramic is a little better...you could fill the cup up with sand. My ceramic tiles are made with sand in them too........ |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 679 Registered: Nov-04 | guys, stop feeding this guy with material. he obviously thrives off of this attention from his stupidity. i mean, this has been both very amusing considering how stupid rich is, but rather annoying. let the village idiot be. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 66 Registered: Jul-05 | I'm testing something right now that is going be a "MAJOR BREAK-THROUGH"!!........more on this in a month or two from now....IT'S AMAZING!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 695 Registered: May-05 | Oh we'll definately be waiting for that one... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6328 Registered: May-04 | Good Lord! A two month break in period for a tweak! SP - Nope, I don't think the wood blocks will do the same as spikes. Do you understand what the spikes are doing that makes them effective? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 696 Registered: May-05 | Jan - I understand what is going on when spiking the speakers. I would describe it, but you described it better than I could a few posts ago. I think you misunderstood what I was asking. Instead of putting quarters under the spikes, would putting 3" x 3" x 1" thick wooden blocks under the spikes be effective? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 572 Registered: Dec-03 | Your options are either coupling or isolating. Wood tends to behave as an isolator. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6329 Registered: May-04 | The wood blocks under the spikes of a 50Lb speaker just might split along the grain from the sharp point of the spike. If you wanted to do this ply or 1/8" MDF would be the better choice. But, as Tim indicates, the wood is going to act as an isolator and the spike as a coupler. To answer your previous questions; no, the nylon balls should touch only at a tangent and leave no mark unless the floor is so soft you can leave a mark in its surface by placing a heavy coffee table or chair in one place. I have the nylon balls on the bottom of my speaker stands for the HT system and the whole weighs in at around 40-50 lbs. with the speakers mounted. The floor is old growth quarter sawn white oak, so it's somewhat different from modern floors. However, the nylon balls allow the speaker stands to slide out of the way easily and have left no marks after about 16 months of use. I used coins under the spikes on my Spicas on the same floor when the music system was in that room. I have no marks to show for the time spent on that floor which amounted to about eight years. There are special discs sold (often exotic materials are used and claims are made for superior performance) for use under spikes though I have a hard time justifying the cost myself when I was quite happy with coins. I see no reason not to use this as long as the floors are flat at the point where the coin will sit. I've also seen people use the smallest T-nut (that fits the tip of the spike) turned upward and used as a buffer for the spikes. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 573 Registered: Dec-03 | The smaller the area of weight distribution the greater the coupling effect. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 698 Registered: May-05 | I know this may seem like a stupid question - hence the name Stu Pitt - What sonic differences should I hear between using wood blocks and nylon balls? Would they basically be the same, or would one would be more pronounced than the other; or would they have different effects all together? In my experience, spiking has mainy tightened up low mids and bass. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 192 Registered: Apr-05 | Ceramic's is pretty much GLASS folks. Would anybody with an audio background recommend putting GLASS under your components or your speakers? It's certianly NOT desirable to have glass on the walls behind or alongside your speakers. |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | Thick glass shouldn't be a problem under components imo as it is usually very flat unlike some tiles and won't warp like timber, but glass panes on walls are certainly reflective and may cause problems. My components are on MDF sheets on a hi-fi rack and I have problems with even flatness - I was thinking thick galss or granite sheets. |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | Oops! That's glass not galss - though I now wonder if maybe thick galss would suffice. No? |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 68 Registered: Jul-05 | Here's more feedback on the Dakiom feedback stabilizers...... http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/123659.html |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 574 Registered: Dec-03 | SP- A ball will have a smaller contact area than a block. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6336 Registered: May-04 | The ball or spike will couple the speaker to the floor which is quite often the most desireable effect. A wooden block will allow the speaker to remain "decoupled". The effect you will get from wood blocks should be synonymous with using the rubber feet. The speaker is decoupled and will move in response to the action of the drivers. I would suggest you audition both methods of mounting your speakers. While it is assumed coupling the speaker to the underlying surface is correct, not all speakers respond in the same fashion to being coupled to the floor. When I listened to Tim's speakers, using PlastiTak to couple the speaker to the sand/lead shot filled stand shut down the speakers' sound. I found the best arrangement to my ears was to use cones (not quite the equivalent of spikes in that the cone can drain energy more effectively due to its larger surface area in contact with the cabinet) to mecahnically couple the cabinet to the top of the stand which then uses the nylon balls to couple it to the floor. Don't assume a tweak will work in all situations. If you do something and it changes the sound in a way you don't like, don't be afraid to say this tweak doesn't work for me. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 69 Registered: Jul-05 | I tried spikes, wood, small inner tubes, and the best thing that I have found to put under my speakers and components was Mi-Rollers....you can get these very cheap too $15.00 for a set of 3 ((Demo)) brass Mi-Rollers,Jrs. I found out too that you get more of an effect by using only 3 Mi-Rollers under each component or speaker. You can improve the sound even more by putting silicone rubber on the top part of the Mi-Roller only. I am using ceramic tiles that has ((sand)) in them too...... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6339 Registered: May-04 | Inner tubes? Under speakers? With air in the inner tube? How long did that take to break in? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 700 Registered: May-05 | Thanks Jan and Tim for the insight. I think I'll try the spikes on quarters and then the nylon balls. I thought I was doomed with the rubber feet, not that they are bad at all. It's just when you know it has sounded slightly better in the past is when you start thinking... Rich - When are you going to figure out that the best tweak for your system would be to buy better speakers? Save the money from the tiles, tubes, spikes, fuses, and what ever else you have up your sleeve and replace the SDAT's with respectible speakers. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 70 Registered: Jul-05 | Stu, SDAT SB-E639 speakers are GOOD speakers! They are the best that SDAT makes and are amazing .... AFTER the upgrades to them!! |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 576 Registered: Dec-03 | This isn't really on topic but whenever talk about tweaks occur I always wonder about taking the money for tweaks and fixing the room instead. In most cases, half the sound you hear is the room. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 701 Registered: May-05 | From personal experience, I've always thought the room was the most important component in the system. Then again, maybe the recording. Either way, they dictate what the rest of the system will ultimately be capible of. Just my opinion and experience... |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 71 Registered: Jul-05 | The RECORDING of the MUSIC.....How good was it recorded?... is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in a system!....ROOM TREATMENT is very important too..... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6342 Registered: May-04 | Richard - Stop with THE CAPS! |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummPost Number: 268 Registered: Feb-05 | I think he's compensating for something :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 72 Registered: Jul-05 | How good are dakiom feedback stabilizers? Well, at the 2005 CES show they had these stabilizers hook up to a very low level system and some that heard that system said it was just as good as any system at the show! Look..... http://www.dakiom.com/ces2005.htm |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 4177 Registered: Dec-03 | What about the others that did not hear any improvement? Do they not any credence at all? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6344 Registered: May-04 | "Some" in this case are the owners of Dakiom. "Our demonstration consisted of a low cost $1352 system upgraded by our New 203 Series Feedback Stabilizers. Though the system was low cost, the sound quality was as good as anything around." GeezLouise, Richard, you are becoming less believable every time you post. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6345 Registered: May-04 | http://www.dakiom.com/products_mod.htm I'm not sure which is a dumber idea; putting an extra $995 into a DVD player and still having the same $100 DVD player you started with or putting $2995 into a $300 receiver. You do get free shipping so that's got to count for something. I guess. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 73 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, I can see that your one of those non-believers......this is sad because your really missing out on something here.....Here's another tweak.....Oyaide Cryo'd ac outlets...they are only the best sounding ac outlet on the market today! http://www.cryo-parts.com/products1.html |
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Anonymous | LOL! Thats awesome. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6353 Registered: May-04 | Richard, other than the few noobs who have swallowed your "stuff" hook line and sinker, I believe I have been more in favor of tweaks that work than most others on this page. I am hardly a "nonbeliever" as I have spelled out why some tweaks work and others might not for a given system. My impression of you, however, is you are too much a believer who doesn't consider what the effect of a tweak might be; whether the result is moving the music toward more realism or just making a hifi change its sound and someone going for the little tiny stuff while ignoring the larger picture. You've still not answered any questions about what major tweaks you've done to accomplish better sound in your room. I consider anyone who starts stuffing dampening into their speakers and chasing cryo'd wall plugs while ignoring room modes and more important issues of sound quality to be either, frivilous, stupid or a shill for a company. Which is it, Rich? |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 178 Registered: Dec-04 | If the car-b-better thingy increased mileage and power, mercedes or Honda would make and use them. If the investment fund actually delivered a 200% return, my investment guy would own it and be my retired investment guy. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably worth $8. (11$ dressed) |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 703 Registered: May-05 | Rich - After all of these truly magnificent tweaks you mentioned, you forgot about the best one of all time - c37 lacquer!!!!!! Or is this what were are waiting for a report on? Hope I didn't blow your cover. You also haven't mentioned the green marker for cd, or the magic mat for cd's. You know what would be the best sounding cd of all time? A cd cryo'ed, then green markered, then c37'ed, then magic matted. I don't think anything could ever compete with all of that. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 74 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, for room treatment I have blankets across the whole back wall with memory foam right behind the speakers.....I have memory foam in the top and bottom corners and I have a blanket on each side walls where the speakers are at......On the ceiling I have memory foam all the way across the ceiling where the speakers are and a little in front of the speakers too.....Talk about a big improvement....WOW! |
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Anonymous | For some reason with Richard I just envision a little kid's "indoor tent" made of blankets. |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | In his last post you will all notice that Richard forgot to mention his security blanket. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6360 Registered: May-04 | OK, Rich, the memory foam has got to go. It is a closed cell foam material. That makes it very frequency selective when used for room treatment. The same goes for the blankets. The materials reflect as much as they absorb. Get on the net and find either "open cell foam" or rigid fiberglass. Mount it with some space between the material and the wall behind it. This gives the material two chances to damp the soundwave as the signal passes through, is reflected off the wall and is damped again as it passes back through the material. I don't know how you decided where to place the material, but directly behind the speaker is usually the least important area of most rooms unless you are using dipole/bipole speakers. Treat the corners and the front wall between the speakers. Then treat at the first reflection on the side walls, ceiling and floor. Do you know how to find the first reflection point? You do not have to treat the entire room end. Some reflections will add to the sounstage and bring the ambience up to a respectable level. The LEDE approach is dead. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 705 Registered: May-05 | Richard - For a while I thought you were just one of the myriad of idiots here trying to stir things up a bit. Now I'm not sure. You've carried this charrade on for long enough for me to think that maybe - just slightly maybe - you are serious about all of this. Keep in mind you can upgrade crap all you want. You can tweak it, then tweak the tweaks. You can tweak everything around it and tweak all of their tweaks. But at the end of the day, you're still left with crap. Their's no two ways about that. I know you have the wonderful SDAT's, but what is the rest of your system composed of? Please tell me you don't own the $300 receiver with $3000 worth of mods and the $100 dvd player with $1000 worth of mods. If you do own that stuff and the other stuff you've mentioned, you really need to stop believing everything you read. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 75 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, I'm using QuiltFlex for my room treatment, this is the same place I got my memory foam for my bed too. I don't know if this QuiltFlex stuff is memory foam or not www.memoryfoam.com |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6363 Registered: May-04 | Everything I see there would appear to be closed cell foam. You can call the manufacturer to verify that. Open cell foam is what is used for wind screens on microphones. If it is thin enough, you can see light transmission through a good dampening material. The idea is to get enough material thickness that the soundwave constantly passes through multiple layer after layer of "absorption". What is actually happening is the soundwave, as it passes each layer of material, is exciting/vibrating the material slightly and the energy is dissipated as heat. Corrugated material (like Sonex) is the best choice because of the increased surface area. You can use loose fiberglass but it is difficult to work with and can present a health hazard if not applied properly. You need a reasonably thick material to be effective beneath 200-300Hz. (Four to six inches placed away from the wall. Eight inches if it will be placed on the wall.) For bass treatment you need bass traps or the response becomes uneven in the room. Typically you treat for the first reflection point, then the bass response beginning with corners and finally to even out the rest of the room for bass and smearing caused by secondary reflections. Read some of the articles under the "room treatment" section of the forum under "accessories". https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/1664.html When dealing with a room, you use either absorption, reflection or diffusion. In most rooms you will combine a bit of all three. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 708 Registered: May-05 | Jan - Curiosity question - Is the foam "egg crate" material a good material to use for absorption? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6364 Registered: May-04 | If you're talking about the foam mattress pads with the egg crate surface, they're better than the flat foam due to the corrugated surface material. The irregular surface offers more surface area to be used than a flat panel so what is absorbed is done over a greater surface area which makes the material "virtually" larger. However, they are not quite open enough to be totally effective at most frequencies. As I said above, the ideal is a surface which, if it were very thin, would allow light to travel through the material yet be "damped" down in level. Successive layers of this dampening are what accomplish the reduction in SPL when used as a room treament. If you look at the name brand products for room treament, like Sonex panels, you can see into the material slightly. On the other hand the memory foams and the egg crate materials have a reasonably closed surface structure. If you can't see into the fabric/material somewhat, soundwaves can't get in either. If a light or soundwave can't penetrate the material, its only other possibilities would be diffusion or reflection. The benefit of the eggcrate material is more in diffusion by way of the irregular surface than absorption. Of course, this is relative to the size of the soundwave. Obviously a wave larger than the size of the "bump" in the material will not be affected to any significant degree. That leaves the egg crate material noneffective at frequencies lower than about 3 1/2" in length. Look at the chart for the frequencies that will not be affected by the foam egg crate. (http://www.maximacar.com/system_design2.htm) Also the egg crate material doesn't let the signal pass through in the way an open cell material would, so the opportunity for the signal to pass back through after striking the wall is minimal. So, the egg crate foam will damp the top end to some extent, mostly by being less reflective than a flat, hard, solid surface, but can be bettered by an open cell material. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 76 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, I'm using this QuiltFlex because I liked what it did inside my SDAT speakers for damping and I really like it for room treatment too. Open cell foam...you mean something like this..... http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=22159 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6365 Registered: May-04 | From the web site linked the material is an open cell foam product which has been treated with a PSA. I don't know what a PSA is, maybe someone else has a clue. But, again from the web page, it appears to be a damping material that adds mass when used inside speaker enclosures. Two things about this product should be noted. First, the open cell foam ]i{without the PSA} is the sort you should be looking for if you want a room treatment system.* Second, the addition of mass might sound attractive to many people, but the addition of mass in and of itself can have adverse effects on the sound when applied in a random manner. Tweaking is a great way to take a mass produced product with the limitations of budget, universality and marketing which that implies, and nudging a bit more performance out of the equipment. Tweaking without any sense of why you are doing something or what the effects will be both as an advantage and as a disadvantage is nothing more than changing the flavor of the ice cream. It is not making the ice cream better. If you don't understand what you are doing, what you expect to get from the tweaking and where you want the system to go after the tweak has been applied, you can mess up a very fine product far more than you can help. A common example is to change out the speaker cabling inside a speaker enclosure. Most people have no idea what they are doing when they change from one cable to another in terms of capacitance and inductance of the cables. Those two qualities determine the crossover point and the "Q" of the Xo; and the speaker cable should be included as a determining factor in how that Xo works. Taking out the cable the manufacturer picked to substitute a thick "audiophile" cable can alter the performance of the speaker without improving the speaker. While the result might be pleasing in the sense your "tweak" changed the sound; it is unlikely you have improved the speaker system by sheer dumb luck. *Open cell foam is exactly that; it has an open structure which allows soundwaves to penetrate the material. It is used as a windscreen on a microphone. Anyone who has seen a pair of JBL L-100's with their brightly colored foam grills has seen open cell foam. It is the ability of open cell foam to pass soundwaves through the material that makes it desirable and undesirable for room treatment. It is desirable in that sound will penetrate and the resulting "vibration/heat" of the material will damp the wave as it passes through and strikes each successive layer. However, it is the ability to pass a signal through the material which means it will take considerable thickness to dampen the signal to any significant degree. You can let the signal bounce and pass through the material twice and get by with less material or have more effect for the same thickness. Materials such as Sonex which are specially designed for sound treatment use a cellular structure which begins at the surface as an open cell material. As the signal travels through the material it encounters an ever tighter structure which makes it less transparent to the soundwave. Once the signal is inside the foam, it is rerouted in numerous directions increasing the effectiveness of the material without increasing the thickness. Portions of the soundwave literally get stuck inside the Sonex material. All this is accomplished with a structure designed to be even in its frequency absorption. Unfortunately, due to the size of the wavefront, it requires a large expanse of any material to damp bass frequencies; and it is virtually impossible to effectively treat a room for signals beneath approximately 70Hz. Look at a picture of an anechoic chamber flat to 50Hz. The entire room is covered in foam material with large corrugated peaks that extend as much as 4.5' into the room. Most tweaks are based on simple observation. Often someone notices a problem and finds a material that already exists to solve the problem. A little further tweaking of the material and then some packaging and a new tweak is born. To be effective to most applications means the tweak is based on some solid concept. It affects most systems in the same fashion. Tweaks such as TipToes, spikes, vibration isolating footers and BluTak are examples of tweaks which solve the same problems in most systems. Tweaks which are not really based on solid evidence or are effective only in some applications seldom make the cut over time. P.S. If you want a cheap isolation footer, cut a tennis ball or squash ball in half and use the halved sphere under your equipment. You can buy a bag of one dozen squash balls at Target for under ten dollars. If isolation is all you require, this is a cheap effective tweak. Many isolation feet are designed to do more than just isolate however; so don't turn your nose up at other products just because the squash balls work so well. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6366 Registered: May-04 | The scrolling note in Richard's link to QuiltFlex indicates they can supply soundproofing foam. This might be place to begin a search for room treatment materials. If you understand the concept of combining reflection, diffusion and absorption in one room, you will understand why a "soundproofing" material may not be the only application you want to employ. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6367 Registered: May-04 | http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 77 Registered: Jul-05 | I believe that the fuse in our components is the weakest link........ |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 78 Registered: Jul-05 | What I mean is that the fuse is the weakest link for our components.....not the weakest link in our whole system... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6375 Registered: May-04 | Explain that, please. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 79 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, a double cryo'd ceramic fuse gives you cleaner power and cleaner power gets you better sound.....Jan just try this for yourself and you will find out what I'm talking about |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1115 Registered: Jun-05 | Im not tryinng to break up you guys tweak swaps,I use a few tweaks im not nearly into them like Richard or even Jan,but Bayless if I was Richard I would have been cursing you out 90 posts ago. You should read words and paragraphs a little closer instead of so many graphs and measurements and John Atkinson wave guide lesson plans.Ive been away a month and my name is still coming out of your mouth,just because Richard likes the SDATs doesent mean that he is me,you of all people should know my words when you see them,and good luck with that new thread you just started it looks like the same ole marry-go-round to me. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6379 Registered: May-04 | Richard - That is not an explanation; that is a proposition. Please explain how a fuse can be the weakest link in a component. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 80 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, I have been doing more testing on this and I was wrong, its not the fuse....its the Double Cryo treatment that is giving me these improvements. So I think Double Cryo Treatment is the weakest link in a component. |
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Anonymous | so you admit that your Cryo treatment is hogwash? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6385 Registered: May-04 | How can the DCT be the weakest link if it gives the greatest improvement? Richard, are you just screwing with me? I would love to hear your testing procedure. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 81 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, OK, a non double cryo component is the weakest link in a component. The way I did my testing is I took a non ceramic fuse and put it in my component and played some music and then changed that fuse with the cryo'd ceramic fuse and played the same music over and you can clearly hear a difference for the better! ....Look what I found on the Freezer Tweak..... http://www.positive-feedback.com/ambackissues/Belt.htm ...... and this.... http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PWB/message/162 ..... and this....... http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PWB/message/159 |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 695 Registered: Nov-04 | would you like to present the credentials of these people? i could find a site saying eating turds increase your metabolism and find some bogus site on it, doesn't prove the theory. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6388 Registered: May-04 | Ok, I never said I didn't think the cyro treatment had no effect. It's just not one I'm interested in chasing. But to think a fuse of any sort is "the weakest link", Richard, that's what I need explained. Even to the most ardent tweaker, your methodology for testing stinks and tends to prove my contention you believe anything you do is an improvement. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 82 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, prove me wrong then! Just try one of these cryo ceramic fuses from cryo-parts.....I Double Dare you!............ |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 4188 Registered: Dec-03 | Is there a return policy? Are they confident enough in the improvement and are they willing to give you all your money back including shipping if you find that their products are nothing but snake oil? You never did respond to stan about his questions. Are you going to tackle that issue or ar you just going to yammer on about the "double dare"? |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 201 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, speaking of same ole merry-go-round, still happy with those Epiphony's? Did you read the soundtage review on them recently? |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 698 Registered: Nov-04 | thanks for popping your ugly head again shamu. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6393 Registered: May-04 | Richard - I asked for an explanation, not a ploy. I have no interest in fuses. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 83 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, talk is cheap........trying is believing!....this is no snake oil! |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 700 Registered: Nov-04 | here we go again. jan give it up. this guy is hopeless. his IQ is lower than a rock. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6395 Registered: May-04 | I do; I give up. Richard, if all you can do is extort the values of fuses without any logic to what you post, this thread has lost me. I said I'm not interested in chasing fuses. Talk may be cheap to you, Rich, but obviously not cheap enough that you can answer my question. Have fun with your fuses. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 84 Registered: Jul-05 | I'm going to find another forum because this forum just has too many A?S HOLES on IT!!!!!!........................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ..........................! |
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Anonymous | Talk is cheap Richard. Now, we'll see if you do stay away. I double dare you... LOL! |
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John Wagner Unregistered guest | Yes Richard they have these kinds of people on any forum you go on |
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nout Unregistered guest | what's with the "trust your ears" philosophy often used on this forum? Now here's a guy who just said: "try it for yourself" and he's ridiculed ??? here we go again. jan give it up. this guy is hopeless. his IQ is lower than a rock. Thanks for the intelligent contribution on this thread Christopher Lee, your IQ got me worried the most. For the record, I'm not interested in those tiles, but I don't argue without trying these damn things first, since when are you considered to be a moron when you praise this forum's philosophy: "tust your ears"? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6400 Registered: May-04 | I don't think I made Richard feel like a moron. I asked Richard to explain a few of his statements and he didn't make any attempt to do so. If you look at what I posted, I didn't disavow those things that I think might be beneficial; I merely asked Richard to give a better explanation of his thoughts beyond, "I Double Dare you." Not everyone has to be versed in physics to comprehend how a tweak works, you should trust your ears when trying tweaks. However some basic understanding of the process and the goal is important if you are going to "tweak" your system towards higher fidelity to the source rather than just making changes for the sake of making changes. My impression would be Richard is, at this time, firmly entrenched in the second methodology of tweaking. His testing procedure seems to indicate that at least. I would hope my comments to Richard were taken in the spirit of getting him to understand why he was doing a tweak and what the effect actually accomplished to make his system more or less realistic. (I have to admit to having doubts about anyone who doesn't understand what they are doing yet everything they do is proclaimed as an improvement.) From his final response, I would say Richard has exhibited the same approach to forums that he does to tweaking; a general lack of understanding and unwillingness to step back and ponder whether the approach taken is the best that could be chosen. And, lastly, I am not interested in playing with fuses. I have bigger fish to fry. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 702 Registered: Nov-04 | nout, when have you ever seen ME display that philosophy? if anything, i want an explaination with some logic before i bother to try something. i rarely trust my ears or my senses for that matter when it comes to something like this. not all things make sense or can be lended to trust in our senses. not that sience explains everything, but there should be some basic reasoning, which rich lacks in any attempt of defense. i would be more than glad to try out rich's tweeks if he bothered to try and make some rationalization for the tweeks. since he has been unable to i have no reason to believe in these things and i have no reason to believe he knows what he is talking about. rich, we have honestly been trying to figure what is going on in your head. your refusal to be rational and even attempt to explain YOUR rational has led us to make the assumptions that we have. only one to blame is yourself. |
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nout Unregistered guest | Jan, you're right, but I wasn't pointing at your direction, I felt the overall tone of the thread wasn't that nice, but I must confess my view was colored by a few post where Richard was called a "village idiot" etc. Christopher, no I've never seen you displaying that philosophy, but why calling someone a "village idiot", a "retard", someone who misses "a few screws in his head"? Richard wasn't rude, he didn't yell...oh well, let's leave this behind. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 703 Registered: Nov-04 | nout, how much of this thread did you read? i'm not trying to drag this on since the thread is now dead, but i see nothing to regret typing. i asked for explainations many times and got nothing. in a way i wanted to provoke him to prove me wrong that he wasn't what i called him. he never did so thats that. no rich wasn't rude directly to people but i did find it rude not to bother to answer people's questions directed to him. whatever, this was a source of entertainment while it lasted. |
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Explain it to me Unregistered guest | Richard I will give some of your tweaks a try. |
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John Wagner Unregistered guest | I am going to try out the cryo fuses |
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sideways Unregistered guest | Trust your ears |
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