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New member Username: PlevinPost Number: 1 Registered: Oct-05 | Until I decide to go home theater, my primary entertainment is listening to music. Will adding a center speaker to my stereo enhance the listening experience? I have these old Pinnacle bookshelf speakers that sound good and am interested in a B&W center speaker i found for $300 that matches the cabinet. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6142 Registered: May-04 | I assume you are intending to hook these up to a multichannel receiver and use the DSP modes to acquire a derived (depived? depraved?) center channel output. If the source is strictly two channel output from CD's, LP's tuner, etc, there is little value to a center channel unless speaker placement leaves the stereo soundstage too widely spaced to give a center image. But many people enjoy the added "ambience" of the various surround formats and I'm not the one to tell you what you will or will not enjoy. In the fifties Paul Klpisch promoted a "phantom center" speaker when his large Klipschorns were placed on the long wall (21' or more) of a room. Most of us today don't set up speakers in that manner. If you have been satisfied with the presentaion your speakers and amplifier have provided up to now, I would suggest you should not be in a rush to use a center channel for music until you get to the true discrete multichannel sources such as SACD or DVD-A. Even in these formats, not everyone agrees on the value of a center channel. Telarc and Chesky do not record a center channel on their discs believing instead in the value of good speaker placement. On the other hand, the original Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo recordings are being reissued in these two high resolution formats with the original third (center) channel included. This provides the first opportunity for the public to hear these historic recordings in the three channel format as they were originally recorded. If my assumption is incorrect and you are planning to use this center channel speaker with a two channel system, how do you intend to connect the center speaker? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1955 Registered: Feb-05 | No. Actually I don't know. As it would no longer be stereo at that point. First of all you are talking about speakers that aren't timbre matched and then you would blend the L/R into the center (somehow). No, it's a great way to make a mess of a good stereo. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2575 Registered: Mar-05 | Paul, I think it may really depend on the quality of your receiver or amp. When I was using my Marantz 5400 alone, I actually preferred listening to 2-channel music in 3.1, in large part because my Ascend 340 center does incredible things with voices. When I started to use NAD 2-channel separates, my L/R mains really blossomed and I actually turned down my subwoofer because the NAD already had a very strong bass response. Though the NAD gear certainly had no "phantom center channel" mode, it improved the imaging and soundstage of my speakers so much that I often could've sworn that voices WERE coming out of the center channel during stereo listening! Now that I have switched to an all-digital Panasonic receiver which takes all of the NAD's improvements even another couple of notches higher and has superior detail and zero noise/distortion, I still stick to a straightforward 2.0 for most music listening and have my front mains set on "Large" even though they are rolled off at 50Hz, because the bass coming out of the Panny is extremely tight and precise, rather than borderline thudding like the NAD's. |
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S Pearcy Unregistered guest | Panny for $255 shipped right? |
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New member Username: PlevinPost Number: 2 Registered: Oct-05 | Thanks for the responses. Art is probably right, if the center and my old speakers sound different I could really screw up the system. Jan's comments about the RCA Living Stereo revival sounds exciting. My problem is I'm trying to keep my old Pinnacle AC650 speakers. Maybe I'll take them up to myer emco and ask them to hook them up to find a matching center. Edster, which Panasonic? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1447 Registered: Feb-04 | In the fifties Paul Klispch promoted a "phantom center" speaker when his large Klipschorns were placed on the long wall (21' or more) of a room. Most of us today don't set up speakers in that manner. And even those of us that do... Mine aren't 27' apart like PWK suggested. They are still a wide 18' apart. There's no way I'd enable my center speaker for stereo music. The sounstage is unreal as it is; the main speakers completely disappear as if no music comes from them at all. Lead vocals appear to come from the (non-functioning) center speaker already, so I don't need to fill-in the center at all. Perhaps the center-fill speaker is required when a really wide space separates the speakers, like 27'. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6179 Registered: May-04 | "Perhaps the center-fill speaker is required when a really wide space separates the speakers, like 27'." The center speakers job is to bring focus to the sounds (our eyes tell us are) occurring toward the center of the "soundstage". This is most important when the spacing of the "front" speakers is exceptionally wide, the listening position is relatively close or very widely spaced. That's certainly why center speakers above or behind the screen were first employed in cinemas. That and Ray Dolby needed to send his kids to college. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1448 Registered: Feb-04 | Yes Jan, I know. I was just saying that it's not needed at 18' spacing even if it was used with 27' spacing by PWK and others. I figure it wouldn't be needed either with 21' spacing. I'll admit that anyone reading that Klipschorns need a center-fill speaker to sound good might be scared away from buying them! I know I would have been had I not tried the La Scala in the same setting and heard how well they image. I haven't heard hundreds of speakers, but widely spaced La Scala's and Klipschorns have the best imagery I have ever heard. The speakers completely disappear. No expensive integrated amp or CD player required. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6182 Registered: May-04 | Peter - You really need to get out more. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1450 Registered: Feb-04 | Well, I haven't heard hundreds but I have heard many! (including B&W 800) And it's still true! So far, everyone who has heard them has agreed. It sounds like you've never heard them correctly setup. Don't dismiss my obversations please. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1451 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, What are you arguing for anyway? That KHorns don't image so well that they can disappear? That speakers disappearing is so common I should hear it on the majority of system? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6190 Registered: May-04 | I'm not dismissing anyone's observations. But, I've heard plenty of K-horns, LaScalas and Cornwalls in various set ups with everything from a Yamaha receiver to big McIntosh amps running them; and I've never heard a pair that I would say "image" better than anything else I've ever heard. Nor do I think it's possible to get a lively, unbraced plywood cabinet to totally disappear at low frequencies unless the room is far larger than most homes will contain. The horns in the old style Klipsch are not capable of that trick through the mids and highs either. I would put that remark in my "ridiculous" category. I can think of dozens and dozens of systems I prefer when you ask about "disappearing", "imaging" and "soundstaging" over a pair of big Klipsch. Everyone gets to like what they like and I'm not going to dismiss your observations. If you prefer what you own (and I know you do), more power to you. Your observations, however, just are not in synch with mine nor most people whose ears I trust. Does that mean you are dismissing my observations? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 618 Registered: May-05 | Peter, I kind of thought Jan was just joshing you with the "Peter - You really need to get out more." Then, you went and pushed his button so he gave you what for. I haven't heard Klipschs in a long time and I liked the sound then, and I suspect I would like them now. But, I do not believe I ever heard Klipschorns image and present a soundstage like the Studios 60s and 100s I heard in SLC or the Vandys and Wilsons, BUT you're talking many 1000s of dollars on those last two. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1454 Registered: Feb-04 | Guys, You think I'm making this up? I had never heard speakers disappear completely before I spaced out my La Scala's by 18' last winter, which prompted me to buy Klipschorns. My jaw hit the floor when I tried it and heard the result. The Klipschorn do it even better in the low end (because they have a low end), imaging a kick drum like there's no tomorrow. I don't know how they could disappear more than they already do, so if that remark is ridiculous then so be it. All it tells me is that you've never heard them correctly set up. The Klipsch forum is full of people who will tell you that they completely disappear, if you really think I'm alone with this observation. So Jan, I'm not dismissing your observation: you've never heard them image. But since I have heard them pull it off, that tells me you haven't heard them at their potential. You, in the other hand, are saying that you are not dismissing my observations but yet you are placing it in your "ridiculous" category. How can that you tell me you're not dismissing me and in the same breath tell me it's ridiculous? Shows a lack of respect if you ask me. I visited a guy in my town who has a 7.1 setup based on Paradigm Studio 100's and 60's and it didn't image at all in stereo. Just a big mush. I ended up tweaking this speaker placement to make it better, because it wasn't doing anything at all when I got there. My conclusion is not that Studio 100's can't image, but rather that they don't in his setup, probably to due speaker placement and bad room acoustics. Get real guys. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1989 Registered: Feb-05 | Back in the 70's I heard a pair of K-Horns at a friends house in Pocatello, Idaho. He had them in the basesment, most folks in SE Idaho have basements and these folks were affluent so they had a big one, anyway he had them hooked up to Mac amps and a very nice turntable. Let me tell you It was like the band was in the middle of the room playing. We always played them in low light settings (more like black light but we won't go there) and I remember specifically the J Geils band album "Hotline", you would swear that the band was in the house. I believe you Peter. I've also heard Altec Valencia's and Barcelona's do the same and most folks would swear that they can't. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1455 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Art. At least someone doesn't think I'm making this up! ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6194 Registered: May-04 | As to the possibility I've not heard the K-horns set up properly, I suppose something like that is possible. But, when the horn requires placement in a solid corner and no where else to operate properly, there are not a lot of options when it comes to setting up a pair of Horns. Peter, you keep misreading my statements concerning Klipsch speakers. Your reaction whenever I suggest the Horns are not the best speaker made are about what I would expect if I suggested a Klan member switch to "colored" sheets. The Horns and the LaScalas do some things quite well. I've never disputed that; and I sold many of each speaker by playing up those strengths. Imaging and soundstaging are not what I would call the Klipsch's best feature; particularly when driven by less than stellar electronics. The electronics in front of the speakers need not be anything special; in fact, the Horns sound best with the simplest circuit, highest quality amplifiers available. But, we each have areas we find personally atractive and personally annoying. What the Klipsch do is annoying to me. It may not be to you, but to me it is unbearable. If you think the Klipsch disappear better than any other speaker you've heard; how can I argue with that? Actually, I didn't think I was arguing when I said you needed to get out more. You were the one who asked what I was arguing about. I'm not arguing about anything. I'm telling you I think the idea the Horns are the best speaker I've ever heard for imaging is ridiculous. I have heard any number of systems which do much better at that task than any pair of Klipsch I have ever encountered. You surely don't expect me to back down from that; so you? What I listen for and consider important are things the Klipsch does not accomplish. What they do works for you; but not for me. Obviously you and I have a different set of values when it comes to judging the qualities of a speaker. I wouldn't expect you to like my system but I'm not going to get upset when someone suggests what I own doesn't ring their chimes. That you think a pair of Horns placed 18' apart produces the best image you've ever heard is a fair indication you wouldn't think much of a pair of B&W 800 series speakers placed 8' apart. That's not hard to figure out. You like the Klipsch sound and that is not duplicated in many speakers. That hardly indicates the B&W's are not excellent speakers when I comes to imaging and soundstaging. They just don't do what you want. You get to think and like whatever you prefer to think and like in audio. If it's a pair of K-horns at 18' is the best at imaging, you can go on believing that. Personally, I put that in my "ridiculous statement" folder. That's no reflection on what you hear. It is a statement that says I have heard systems which I feel are superior in that area to the Klipsch. So superior in my estimation that your statement is ridiculous to me. The Klipsch do not float my boat. I sold lots of them and never argued with anyone who wanted them. They just are not a speaker I would own. And I have heard too many speakers that accomplish things the Klipsch will never, ever do well. That's hifi. It's hardly anything to get upset about. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1456 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, I know you don't like them. Not news to me. I never said they are the best speaker made either so please don't hide behind such a statement. What gets me is you saying they don't image well, and perpetuating that myth. Then going further and saying it's ridiculous that I would say that. For all I know, you listenned to them but weren't at the crosshairs. I know for a fact you didn't hear what I hear everyday in my home. But it doesn't matter, I must be a fool with no real-word audio experience to think what I think; why would you respect my opinion, or anyone else's for that matter. You're not here to share and learn, you're here to teach others and tell us how it is. Other people would say "Interesting, maybe I should revisit that should the opportunity present itself". But not you. You have an opinion already made up and can't accept any new data about it. Your loss. That you think a pair of Horns placed 18' apart produces the best image you've ever heard is a fair indication you wouldn't think much of a pair of B&W 800 series speakers placed 8' apart. I don't even know what you are saying or implying with that statement. Unfortunately, one always has to wonder what ill-placed sarcasm lies behind your remarks Jan. In many ways, Paul's remarks aren't as harsh on newbie users as your sarcasm. That's hifi. It's hardly anything to get upset about. Nothing to get upset about, except all your exagerations about my representations, and your sarcasm. Good night all. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6197 Registered: May-04 | I'm not hiding behind anything and you are reading far too much into what I post. The Klipschorns don't image as well as other speakers. By my standards. Or, by many other listener's standards. That's all I'm saying. If you think they do, fine; I am not trying to convince you otherwise. They don't do it for me. Most people that listen to audio on a regular basis agree with me. Most of the people I sold to who listened to live music agreed the Klipschorns do not image as well as many other speakers. However, people who like Klipsch - like Klipsch. They have that right. What else am I supposed to say? I don't think the idea the Klipsch can be bested in imaging by any number of speakers is "a myth". Your opinion of the capabilities of the Klipsch is different from what many other people hold as an opinion. That does not make your opinion reality nor does it make the majority's opinion "a myth". And, I'll repeat it one more time, I think the idea the Klipschorn is the best imaging speaker I've ever heard is ridiculous. You have the right to your opinion, Peter. I have the right to my opinion. I do not agree with your opinion based on my experience and my taste in the reproduction of music. What is the problem with that? Exactly what kind of "respect" do you require beyond what I've afforded you? I agree that I do not hear what you hear everyday. That would be impossible; wouldn't it? But, I sold and set up Klipsch speakers for eight years. How many times do I have to taste warm beer before I know I prefer my beer cold? Should the opportunity present itself, I will listen to Klipschorns again. I am usually open to listen to any piece of audio equipment. But, I'm not going to rush out and demand a shop set their speakers 18' apart so I can judge one more time a speaker I think I know fairly well. Was I in the "crosshairs" of the speakers everytime I listened to them? No. Usually the client was. Was I along the center axis of the speaker more often than once? Definitely, yes. So, we've established that there aren't a lot of options to setting up the CornerHorns; they go tightly in the corners. Poor set up can't be what is affecting my opinion. And, we've determined I've heard the Klipschorns from various angles including dead-on center. That isn't what is affecting my opinion of the speaker's performance. What other reasons can you think of to reconcile my feelings about the Horns? How about this? Maybe, just maybe, I think you shouldn't have to be in the "crosshairs" of the speaker to hear decent imaging. Maybe I consider that a quality of speaker "X" that makes it better than speaker "K" where your head is in a vice to keep it in the "crosshairs" so you can hear good imaging. Maybe that would make my criteria for a speaker that images well somewhat different from yours. Maybe that's all I'm saying is I have a different set of rules I apply to a system to determine what I think of its quality. What is wrong with that, Peter? That's part of audio. Different opinions of different gear. There was no sarcasm in the comment about the B&W's. If you think the Klipsch at 18' apart is the best you've heard, I wouldn't expect you to like what the B&W's do at 8' apart and I doubt most people on this forum would expect you would either. It's a very simple statement that has no hidden agenda. If I played a pair of Horns for someone in the store and they expressed a great liking for that sound, I didn't then expect them to like a B&W, KEF, Celestion or Quad. It works the other way too. If you like the Quad, I'm not counting on a commission from a pair of Klipsch. You really would prefer to turn this into a scenario where I am attacking you and your ideas; and that is not at all what I am saying. I've said nothing about you personally while you seem to be willing to rake me over the coals as a blowhard and worse. I have heard speakers that image better than Klipschorns at any distance apart. For me to say otherwise would be ridiculous. That's my opinion, and, until I hear otherwise, it will remain my opinion. You, on the other hand, feel the Klipsch is the best imaging speaker you have ever heard. Have I tried to make you change your mind? No, I've just stated my opinion. You know, most people, when presented with opposing views, might think, "Interesting, maybe I should revisit that should the opportunity present itself." That is all I meant by, "You should get out more." You unfortunately want to turn this into something more. If you get out and hear other speakers, you too might hear something that surpasses the Klipsch - just as I have. That is a possibility. Apparently, however, you have your mind made up and cannot accept any new data nor anyone else's opinion. Egos are fragile in that way. Now, Peter; we can go on like this for quite some time and I will never agree the Klipsch are the best imaging speakers because I've heard better in my opinion. I've heard better on many ocassions in my opinion. You can go on arguing your position to no good end or you can accept the idea there might be a better speaker out there somewhere that you have not yet heard. You can accept my opinion does not agree with your opinion. Until that time I personally don't really care if you want to believe the Klipsch do imaging best; I know what I think based on my criteria and my experience. I am not telling you the Klipsch are not the best speaker you've ever heard. I am not telling you to not believe whatever you want to believe as long as it is opinion based. You can think an 18 watt Superscope receiver from 1974 is the best amplifier you've ever heard. I can't prove you wrong on that count any more than I can change your mind concerning the Klipsch. There are facts I can give you and tell you when you are wrong. You can do the same with me. But, I am not here to give you opinions. I am not here to change your opinion. Only you can do that with experience and reasoned judgement. You have your opinion of what you like and I have mine. That seems fair to me. Where's the disagreement with that? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1458 Registered: Feb-04 | I don't think the idea the Klipsch can be bested in imaging by any number of speakers is "a myth". I am not telling you the Klipsch are not the best speaker you've ever heard. There you go again exaggerating my claims. And, I'll repeat it one more time, I think the idea the Klipschorn is the best imaging speaker I've ever heard is ridiculous. If you had said that earlier, I wouldn't have cared. Here's what you really said: Nor do I think it's possible to get a lively, unbraced plywood cabinet to totally disappear at low frequencies unless the room is far larger than most homes will contain. The horns in the old style Klipsch are not capable of that trick through the mids and highs either. I would put that remark in my "ridiculous" category. See? Not quite the same. One statement is an opinion about having heard better imaging. The other is the mere possibility of it being true being ridiculous based on your unfounded pseudo-scientifics "facts", and therefore I must be ridiculous to believe it. But that is what you do Jan. You post sarcartic remarks exagarating other people's claims and opinions to better counter them, and later you backtrack just enough to make yourself look good. I'm disappointed and tired of it. I had reduced my participation quite a bit in this forum and don't feel the urge to pick it up again. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6206 Registered: May-04 | Peter - YOU STARTED ALL THIS! Here's what I said, "You really need to get out more." Here's what you said, "Well, I haven't heard hundreds but I have heard many! (including B&W 800) And it's still true! So far, everyone who has heard them has agreed. It sounds like you've never heard them correctly setup. Don't dismiss my obversations please." And, "Jan, What are you arguing for anyway?" For goodness sake! I said nothing that should be construed as an argument. But anytime I say anything about your precious K-horns, you go off the deep end. Look, I didn't insult your family, I didn't say your dog was ugly and I didn't imply you dress funny. We have different opinions of Klipsch, Peter. That's it! That's all there is to it! You really need to get over this inferiority complex of yours or else buy some speakers that more people agree upon. If you want respect, go to the Klipsch forum and you can all sit around talking about how expotential horns and compression drivers give you the willeys. If you stay in an open forum, you might find someone who doesn't always share your feelings about a piece of hifi. Have it your way, Peter. You get to believe what you want and I get my share of what I believe. I am curious though. How many dead horses do you beat each day? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1459 Registered: Feb-04 | Enough already. If you haven't understood yet, I don't care that you have a negative opinion of Klipsch speakers. Couldn't care less at this point. It's your condescending remarks and continuous sarcasm that I'm tired of, to me in this thread, to newcomers whenever they appear. There are even more of the condescending remarks in your last reply. I'm taking a break from the forum. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6211 Registered: May-04 | If I reply to your comment, will you reply to my comment; and we'll go on and on forever and ever? Was it that I asked you to explain how resistors change the crosover frequency here; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/167517.html, that was sarcastic? Or was that condescending? Possibly that I knew "LF" stood for "left front" and you thought it was "low frequency" that was condescending. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/168765.html Or was that sarcastic? I'm having trouble deciding which I'm better at according to you. Peter, grow up. Just because I have a different opinion of your speakers than you have, doesn't make any of my comments condescending or sarcastic. That you choose to make the issue my "talents" instead of responding with something factual that supports your case, infers more about your problems than anything I have posted. I've stated you have a right to your opinion. You seem unwilling to allow me the same courtesy. Now you want to call me names and take your ball home to play with kids who agree with you. Come on, Peter, you obviously care what I think or else you wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit every time I mention the "K" word. Get over yourself, Peter. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6213 Registered: May-04 | With all the people who have tried to accomplish it lately, I just have to ask; how is possible to stomp off an internet forum? Isn't stomping off a forum somewhat like stomping off a ferry boat in the middle of the river? Who ends up the worse for that adventure? |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | You don't get wet stomping off a forum! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6218 Registered: May-04 | I guess that depends on how you look at it. |