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New member Username: HallogalloNorth Carolina USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-04 | I am considering (entry-level) turntables such as the NAD 533, Pro-Ject 1.2, and Music Hall MMF 2.1. My current turntable is a 1982 Denon DP-11F servo-controlled direct drive. It is automatic (tone arm returns to rest position, has arm lifter). It is in good working order. Do you think that a current entry-level turntable is going to be a significant upgrade for this unit? Thanks much! |
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Unregistered guest | Yes, but know what to expect with a turntable upgrade. By itself a turntable is not as dramatic a change as the cartridge. The cartridge is, like a loudspeaker, a transducer. A transducer is a device that converts one type of energy to another. A speaker is electrical to mechanical and a cartridge is mechanical to electrical. As such changing a cartridge has the same effect as changing speakers. The problem being you don't have a room full of cartridges to pick from by hitting a selector switch. Know the value and condition of your current cartridge before you invest in a table and be aware that what you hear when you plug in the new table will greatly be effected by cartridge choice. More to your specific question, I would ask first how much you listen to records and what kind of music you listen to. Someone who listens to jazz, folk and classical is likely to have a different experience than a headbanger. Not from a music standpoint but the volume required to satisfy high intensity rock requires a table very immune to feedback. That said no table likes feedback of the acoustic or mechanical type and isolating the table from them is the key to success with any table. The table you now own is all but a non suspended type. The feet do little to isolate the table and because of their compliance will actually make the table sound less high end. All the tables you have mentioned are also non suspended types and will need a good support system to function well. If you have not supplied this already I would suggest you look at doing a gradual upgrade to your present gear in roughly the order of what the table will sit on (pick one of your designs and call the manufacturer to discuss what they recommend in the way of support, it will more than likely suffice for all your choices). Next I would move to what goes between the table and the support table, replace the feet on your Denon with these feet. The cartridge is the next step. Even if you are not considering a change in cartridge at this point make certain the table you now own is set up properly, cartridge alignment, azimuth (a tough thing to change on the Denon but not impossible) anti- skating and stylus pressure (the lightest tracking force is seldom the best) all effect the signal you hear, sometimes dramatically. You might want to invest in a good cartridge protractor or borrow, with a cash deposit, one from a store that still does tables. Then make certain the RCA connectors and jacks on your preamp are clean and treat them with a conditioner. Get a good record and stylus cleaner, the junk on a stylus can really deteriorate the sound. While you're at it make certain the preamp is at it's best with clean connectors elsewhere and is properly grounded and isolated. As discussed in a thread on line conditioners, you may want to look at an AC treatment. Take the dust cover off you Denon and play it without as dustcovers are notoious for picking up feedback and transmitting crud to the table. If you intend to change cartridges I would suggest asking if what you are considering will work temporarily in your Denon and you can get used to it's sound before making the switch to a new table. At this point you have everything ready for the new baby to come home and you have familarized yourself with the idea of living with, and caring for, the sound of the new turntable/cartridge. You are now ready for the purchase of a new turntable. Any of the three you mentioned will perform quite similarly to each other with only minor variations in sound, pick the one that appeals to you the most. Play it without the cover also and only use the dustcover when the table is not in use. You will then have a table that you will "hear". In other words not hear, you will have familiarized yourself with all the other variables in the playback chain so you can now isolate what the table is and is not doing. You will have a more rigid system with far superior arm geometry that should do several things. You should hear a drop in the noise floor of the player and your records. Scratches are scratches and can't be fixed but the noise of the stylus in the groove should be lowered. You should hear a change in the bass extension and solidity. The notes should follow a more rythmic track making the expression of the performer easier to follow. The high end should fit together with the rest of the music more coherently since you have removed some of the noise. You should hear an increase in dynamics and the music should simply be easier to listen to without fatigue for longer periods of time. All those things should happen and you should be able to identify them as part of the table's "sound" if you follow a logical upgrade path. But a table should be inert in it's contribution and if everything is set up properly it is still the cartridge you will be hearing more than the table. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 674 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, That's great advice. Hallo, you got the best overview there. Rega recommend playing with the dust cover on. I have a Rega wall-mounted shelf, but the limiting factor is the wall, which is flimsy and resonates with loud music. I can go to quite higher volumes before the feedback sets in if I open the dust cover. So you seem to be correct there, too, Jan. Maybe we should have separate topics on tonearms and cartridges and styli....? I have the original Ortofon VMS 30 Mk III moving magnet cartridge. It sounds brilliant compared with any CD. I recently changed the stylus for a spare I bought years ago, but it looks like a replacement for that is going to be a problem. If there are better cartridges today (any real developments in the last 20 years?) then I would love to know. My local dealer is hopeless and doesn't know the first thing about phono (e.g. MC/MM cartridges - he just looked baffled and asked me to explain). |
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New member Username: HallogalloNorth Carolina USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Apr-04 | Thanks much for the detailed reply. It is very helpful. I am upgrading to entry-level HiFi and getting back into vinyl after an extended fling with CDs and MP3s. My vinyl is comprised of; world, folk, classic rock, new wave, and college radio/indie/eclectic. The most challenging to reproduce might be older Pink Floyd or Kraftwerk. Other components include NAD 370 amp, 422 tuner, NAD P P-2 phono preamp (on the way), and a pair of _vintage_ Technics SB-7000A loudspeakers. I was going to upgrade my cartridge next. The DP-11F has a Grado P 100 E from the same era, but without much use. I was looking at the Grado Prestige Red (I really don't want to go over $100 on this component). I may have a local shop install and setup the cartridge. I had not sufficiently considered the feet or related isolation issues. The table has yet to be played in its current location (pretty substantial bookcases), so I may need to address that after cartridge installation. Thanks again for the great overview. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 701 Registered: Dec-03 | Hallo, The best location for a turntable is usually on a wall-mounted shelf, and that not in a corner. If it is connected with the floor in any way, it should not, ideally, be a suspended floor, but solid concrete or whatever. It is not at all difficult to fit a cartridge; you will probably give it more care than a shop; and you will know how to make subsequent adjustments if and when the need arises. Jan, I THANK YOU for "Take the dust cover off .... as dustcovers are notoious for picking up feedback and transmitting crud to the table". This is contrary to the Rega guide, but it darn well works. I can now play LPs at realistic volumes, and the feedback is completely gone, as long as I don't lower the lid. You have saved me having to move house. |
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New member Username: HallogalloNorth Carolina USA Post Number: 3 Registered: Apr-04 | I read through the Denon and Grado instructions, balanced the arm and set the stylus force. I checked the catridge alignment (plastic jig that came with cartridge for vertical, paper protractor in DP-11F owner manual for horizontal). I do not believe that you can adjust anti-skating on this 'table. Probably not the most precise tools, but it looked good. Treated connections on preamp with ProGold. Cued up Paul Simon's Graceland, and it sounded quite good. Listened at higher volumes between tracks and with stylus raised. Could not detect extraneous noise. Walked around while playing and the turntable seems to be pretty well-isolated from vibrations. It seems to be acoustically isolated as well, but not yet certain. This was all with the dust cover on to examine "worst-case" conditions. Notes: I am kind of locked into bookshelf location by the WAF. They are solid oak and the bottom two tiers of LPs seem to really dampen vibration, but I will investigate upgrading the feet. Cartridge alignment does indeed seem to be easy enough to do (with patience and proper lighting). Cleaned the stylus, but I would not be surprised if there were still some crud on it, as it has been sitting for 6-8 years. I have only the DiscWasher brushes and fluids (2 & 4?), so I will probably have to get something a little better pretty soon. Thanks much to everyone who took the time to reply to a new poster working in the lower end of the audio equipment spectrum! I have printed this thread to refer to as I listen, tweak, and enjoy. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 715 Registered: Dec-03 | It is good to read that, Hallo. An antiskating contol should be there somewhere. If not, I would guess there must be a single pre-set value corresponding to a single recommended tracking weight. As in my last post, I have benfitted from Jan's advice, as prompted by your question, so I thank you both. Good luck, and welcome back to the analogue real world! |
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Jan Vigne Unregistered guest | Well, let's see what I can do here. First, the Denon, to my aging recollection, did have an anti-skating control. It should be a small dial located beneath the tonearm usually by the cueing lever. It will be marked with numbers similar to the counterweight. It may have had, instead, a hanging weight type of anti-skating. If you see a little wire armature extending up from the base of the arm support this would indicate the need for a weight. You can probably order this from a Denon repair center or might get lucky if you checked out the older hifi shops that sold tables since quite a few tables used this type of anti-skating as it offered a dynamic system that was argued to be more consistent than a coiled spring type. Just for your information the original AR table (which is a classic and should be purchased if you can find one) had no anti-skating as Edgar Vilchur didn't believe it could be accomplished well so better to not try at all and just muck it up! Anti-skating is normally set to the same value as tracking force but both vary dramatically over the course of playing a 12" LP so you may find it pays to play and adjust. Observe the stylus/cantilever assembly from the front as the arm traverses the record. You want it to stay centered in the cartridge at all times. If it doesn't try adjusting the antiskating to see if you can affect a change. Second, if a cartridge has been sitting for a long time the rubber damping block on the cantilever will tend to dry out like the rubber parts on a car that has sat for several years. This will affect the dynamics of the system and can only be assessed by sending the cartridge back to the manufacturer for a judgement. Many manufacturers will offer rebuild facilities or you can buy a new cartridge. Grado has the reputation of building the best inexpensive cartridges, their least expensive will usually beat more expensive cartridges. Grado's are not well suited to all tables and arms, however, and should be purchased with a gaurantee of performance. The problem is Grado's would hum as the arm moved to the center of the record and the cartridge picked up the noise of the motor. The usual worst offenders in this case were the Dual and Rega tables. (Buy any used Dual 500 series table if you are on a really tight budget, they have excellent arms, good isolation and play music well. Beware parts could be a real problem here in the States.) Rega seems to have gotten better but if you have an older Rega be careful. Thirdly, the Ortofon VMS-30 mk. whatever, is a low mass, high tractability cartridge that is ill suited to the Rega arm. Any of the RB series arms are too high in mass to work well with that Ortofon. If the choice was made on budgetary considerations the Ortofon should at least have a small weight mounted between it and the arm. A poor solution to the problem but done in some cases. This weight puts more mass at the head shell, exactly where you don't want mass. It would, as the budget allows, be best to switch to a more compatible cartridge. Cartridge technology has improved and you get quite a bit for your money today. And there are better record and stylus cleaners out there. Keep the stylus clean for the best sound. Treat all the connections, after cleaning them, with a conditioner such as Cramolin or ProGold or similar. Make certain you clean and treat the connecting pins on the back of the cartridge. Tracking force is best set by ear and reinforced by a good stylus pressure gauge. It is dificult to describe but when the proper tracking force is applied the cantilever will deflect upward just the right amount as the arm settles to a record surface. Tracking too lightly will decrease dynamics and will lead to excessive record wear. Best to set the tracking force a bit high but do not exceed the manufacturer's suggested range. The Shure stylus gauge is not a good choice as the magnet of the cartridge will be attracted to the metal of the gauge. (DUH?) The best gauge inexpensive gauge (under $300 [ain't that incredible, that anyone would pay that much or more for a stylus gauge]) I have found is a plastic balance beam type that was supplied with the original AR tables. I have no idea how to get one now. The second best is the balance beam type supplied with the Ortofon cartridges. You can also purchase a test record that will help you set things up by ear. Check out www.amusicdirect.com. The last catalogue I received from them had about 30 pages of analog gear. As far as supports for the table go the story is something like this: most, not all, tables like high mass and high rigidity that dissipate very quickly whatever energy they cannot slough off initially. This, like the mechanics of the turntable itself, is counter-intuitive and represents the "how does a bumble bee fly" quality of record playback in a dynamic system. Wall mounting works very well for most light weight tables because of the stiffness of the combined systems. A heavy piece of furniture, no matter how stiff, will tend to hold the acoustic and mechanical signal that results from playing a record. This won't be too much of a problem if your speakers can't do heavy, deep bass or you never play your records above a whisper. But in the real world you will probably improve the sound by installing the turntable on a small, light weight sub table that you can mechanically isolate from the heavy furniture. It still needs to be rigid and not subject to any horizontal movement. Several companies make small stands for this purpose and it might be worth a look at how they are made to determine what might work best for your situation. This is particularly true for unsuspended tables like the Rega's and NAD's. If nothing else try a maple cutting board, slightly larger than the turntable, placed on either TipToe type spikes or 1/2" ball bearings. Get a substance called BluTack or similar to attach the "feet" to the cutting board. Place the turntable on top of this and it should be stable. If you have used spikes of some type this won't be a problem. If you have use ball bearings you may have some movement. You can either work this out or temporarily try three halves of a cut tennis ball placed in a triangle under the platform. Place the cut side down and the board on top of the rounded side. This should result in better isolation and thus better sound due to less feedback. The tennis balls are not the solution for a turntable as they allow too much horizontal movement and should be replaced with something that will essentially lock the turntable to the platform and to the underlying support without transmitting vibration upward. Spikes are the usual solution. You are trying to make the turntable a solid part of the environment while simultaneously isolating it from its environment. Holy rotational stability Batman! How do we do that? That, Robin, is what fortunes are made from. Check the websites of various manufacturers of supports and if you can get your hands on a Brittish hifi mag from the 80's they always talked about this due to their (ir)reverence of the Linn tables. In any event try this: with the table turned off and a record on the platter, lower the cartridge to the playing position; turn the volume on the pre amp to about 11-12 Oclock; tap very lightly on the plinth (top) of the turntable. You should hear quite a bit from most unsuspended tables. Now rap on the basic shelf you have the table sitting on (say the bookcase). The less you hear now the better. You are looking to reduce this to zero feedback if possible. Cartridge alignment is another area that is the bumble bee of physics in a table. The best aligment protractors are two point. Something most table manufacturers seldom include. There is a thread on this site that will give away two point protractors and I suggest anyone who wants the best sound look into acquiring one of these devices. Finally, Roy Gandy, the president of Rega, has some very particular ideas about record playback that are not shared by the audio community. Why do you think the Rega arms have no provision for VTA adjustment? I have had immense respect for Rega as a company ever since I purchased one of the first Rega Planar 3 tables brought into the U.S.A. back in 1976. I have recommended and sold Rega products for many years. But when what I hear is at odds with what Roy believes I will go with my ears in my system. Roy can do whatever he prefers in the privacy of his own house and we will both be content if not down right ecstatic. I think this addresses the issues I thoght needed clarification in the above discussions. If anyone has any questions let me know |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 721 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Brilliant, generous and not so easy to write all that down. I am with you on all things I know or have ever heard about, right down to the end on people's right to choose what others, including me, might not. But you have serious audio knowledge and experience, you should write a book. I wrote some down some basic turntable knowledge, intending to post it here for audio orphans, but cannot find a sensible opportunity. Thanks for the view of matching Ortofon VMS/Rega. The arm I have is S-shaped, not the straight one they changed to, some time in the early-to-mid 1980s. The dealer recommended matching with a Grado F1 plus until he saw the test LPs I brought along, and virtually insisted I get the Ortofon instead. BTW about eight years ago I decided I might be hearing the main bearing, and filled it with quality bicycle grease, which works fine. The only rumble I hear now is on the recoding itself, from the tape recorder. I don't care for even the merest detectable rumble, but, funnily enough, I even quite like to hear the tape hiss from the recording. It means it was analogue. It seems more like reality, somehow. The isolation factors you mention apply even now, with digital sources, as you know, but others don't. I have just bought a DVD-A player and am thrilled with DVD-A, but the stupid thing is so flimsily built the whole box vibrates to loud music, and it mistracks at high volumes. It has rubber feet, and one option, now you mention it, is to see whether I can fit spikes, and if they will do anything. I am also a great believer in the benefits of Blu-Tak, especially for speakers, but if feedback is structure-borne then I imagine it will only make things worse. Turntables went this way. The one I had before the Rega (BSR/ADC - years before a reputable make) had a light, plastic, resonant plinth, for heaven's sake. Cover off or on you could never play anything at reasonable volumes, and certain instruments (i remember french horns) distorted even at "backgournd listening" levels. There was nothing you could do but keep it in another room to the speakers. BTW I repeat, just leaving the lid open totally transformed the Rega. It was the structure formed with the lid down that was resonating, no question. Wish I'd known that years ago! Thanks again. |
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Unregistered guest | John A, CD's and turntables can require different fixes for feedback. And where a turntable likes to be rigidly held in place, a CD has a different amount of inertia and though they don't like to be floating in space they are usually not looking for spikes as much as isolation from a device more like a Vibrapod. Try this: start with the halved tennis balls under your player and see what the effect is. Place the balls as I suggested for the turntable, locate them under the chasis of the player not under the rubber feet. Use three halves. If you own a Rega you know to use just three as three points define a plane and will be more stable than four. If this is an improvement try putting this arrangement on a sub table as I described before (a maple cutting board or two thickness of 3/4" MDF from the hardware store will do to start) with the sub table supported by spikes or ball bearings. The ball bearings will only touch the surface at a small point tangent to the surface so the effect is very much like spikes at a cost low enough to experiment. Depending on the surfaces you might want to BluTak a coin to the bottom surfaces and let the ball bearing touch this. This works well for spikes also. See if that doesn't improve things. Now repeat the procedure with spikes or ball bearings where the tennis balls were. Which is better? Next go down to the local hardware or gun store and get some small gauge lead shot. Double bag this in a sandwich size zip lock bag and put this on top of your player. Make certain the top panel does not deflect downward enough to interfere with the mechanics of the player. If it does remove some shot until things look correct. Sound any better? If so you need to damp the underside of the top panel with Sorbothane and then put the lead shot back on top. As always clean up the connectors, including the AC plug, and treat with a conditioner. As an aside, turn the CD and DVD player off when you are playing the turntable. I am not certain what your test records were that made the salesman suggest the Ortofon, maybe they looked like a Ripple potato chip. You might want to look on the used market for one of the RB style Rega arms, they are a simple bolt on replacement for your current arm which was just a Japanese sourced arm for the early Rega's. If you want, try this: clean out the bearing housing with a Q-tip and some achohol. Replace the bearing grease with either a high quality silicone or a grease with a Teflon base. Do not over fill the bearing, a small amount is sufficient. Shouldn't cost more than a few bucks to try and you can always get more bicycle grease if that sounds best. If you need to play the turntable with the dustcover in place because of children or pets, lift the dustcover out of its hinge slots and put four small pieces of Sorbothane on the bottom rim of the cover. Lift the cover on and off instead of using the hinges. Hope all this helps someone. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 725 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Brilliant, again. I am going to save that and try your suggestions when I have some holiday time or something. I spent half of yesterday trying to relocate the DVD player. It is now in a stack with a piece of board above and below, and I think this improves CDs at high volumes, but it takes so long you can't go back and listen with the same state of mind, let alone do A/B. But your experimental approach is excellent, trying each possible source of trouble separately, to see what difference it makes. After I wrote yesterday I found the DVD-A "mistracking" (that's certainly what it sounds like) is not volume-dependent, so it is not feedback/vibration, as I thought. It could even just be the one disc. Half the problem with being just an owner is you often have only one of something (e.g. player) and so you can't just do simple and obvious things like play the same disc on another unit. We certainly see quality control beginning to slip on DVDs, I think. Hope they don't go the same way as LPs. I should go back to my NAD T533 thread and report that it is has one or two problems. If fact I tried to do this, even post some photos of the insides, but my web brower crashed on "post" and I lost the lot. If I can summon the strength I shall try again later today. Yes, I got the impression the later Rega arm was considered an improvement. But there isn't a lot wrong with the earlier one to my ears. Where I live auditioning and buying a turntable arm would be next to impossible, but I will keep this possibility in mind for the future. Now I play with the lid up (thanks!), there is not a lot wrong. I took a highly regarded and brand new EMI LP of Faure's Requiem to check out the Rega, and I think it was the source material that made them steer me away from the Grado cartridge. But this is another thing I have never understood: the idea that some equipment is better suited to particular sorts of programme material. I read this all the time these days as regards home theater vs listening to music. A typical post on some threads adds something like "60 % for HT, 40% for music", "75 % classical, 25 % heavy metal" or "are these good speakers for surrounds?". Apart from wondering what the words mean, what other categories are missed out, and whether people fill in a time chart every time they listen, my own view is still that sound is sound. This is probably yet another topic. Thanks again for all the abundant good sense. I loved the quote about reseach on another thread, btw. It hits home. I will try to find it, and reply there. |
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Jan Vigne Unregistered guest | Yes, it is a discussion for another time but it goes back to "East Coast" and "West Coast" speakers of the 50's and 60's. "East Coast" was supposed to be good for classical and jazz while "West coast" were for rock. The "East" manufacturers were AR, KHL and Advent (all three by the way were products Henry Kloss designed and/or created). They felt a good speaker should play everything well. Mostly it came down to the "East Coast" speakers were acoustic suspension designs that were less efficient and required more power in an age when 40 to 50 watt amps were high powered designs. Try to get an AR-3a to play as loud as a JBL L-100 and you would be replacing tweeters constantly. Today the same thinking seems to apply to amplifiers and speakers that will be expected to reproduce the sound of a cryo-nuclear/fission inherent sub particulate wave form in a negative family of atmospheres from the outer semi quadrant of epsilon minus with a hydrogen based ignition and then make a Gibson guitar sound like a Gibson guitar. I don't know what one of those should sound like but I am familiar with the other. I'll take the one that makes the Gibson sound right and take my cahnces it will do OK with the other. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 739 Registered: Dec-03 | Nice comment, Jan. I never knew about the "E. Coast" vs. "W. Coast" as regards speakers, but I can understand it immediately. In UK there was a similar distinction, but you could not pin it down geographically. Henry Kloss sounds like a wonderful guy, and maybe a US counterpart of Raymond Cooke, who founded KEF, and was president/secretary/chairman/something of AES at one time. Your graphic illustration proves my point, really. Choose the Gibson guitar, you know how it sounds. The speakers will probably do OK with cryo-nuclear/fission, too, but no-one knows what that is supposed to sound like, anyway. My Rantz mentioned on another thread he has an Australian active sub called a Richter Krakatoa. At the least the maker has a sense of humour. I hope. I suppose the E. Coast/W.Coast distinction no longer applies, and belongs in the age of FDR and JFK. I just checked the Bose web site, to test, but there is no postal address, and I do not know US telephone area codes well enough to locate 508. I see Bose was "the a professor of electrical engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology". That sounds fairly E. Coast to me, but maybe he migrated, or didn't get tenure. |
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Jan Vigne Unregistered guest | Yes, Dr. Amar Bose was a professor at MIT along with Edgar Vilchur and Henry Kloss, who was one of Vilchur's students. Together they founded Acoustic Research in 1957 with the revolutionary idea of the acoustic suspension speaker enclosure. Kloss went on to become the priniple in K.L.H., Advent and Cambridge Audio before his final company Tivoli which makes a small high quality table radio similar to the K.L.H. Table Radio and the Advent 400 which were successful products that redefined the genre. Kloss was responsible for several of the best selling speakers in the country from the late 50's to the mid 70's and was always a maverick. He left K.L.H. in the mid 60's to found Advent because he wanted capital to do research on a large screen television. I was selling at the time at the largest Advent dealer in the Midwest and watched the 1976 Olympics on a 70" screen. The system sold for about $5000 back then, quite a bit in the economy of the day when you could still purchase a new automobile for $2000 to $3000. Kloss was very much like Cooke and several others in the Brittish hifi market in the middle part of the century. All of them were extremely curious and inventive with a sense of quality and values. The market has changed as these companies have been bought up by bigger monoliths and many no longer have even the vaguest resemblance to their foundings. The Brittish have done a better job of holding on to that idea of quality as KEF is still a respected name as is Quad and B&W. My personal impression of Amar, however, is he never had a curious thought other than how to get rich by marketing crap. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 745 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, I truly laughed out loud at that last line. It is so true. I don't know about MIT, but there are places today where the likes of Bose become distinguished research professors for pushing forward the barriers to human understanding of how to make a fast buck. Vilchur and Kloss would be out, or working as Bose's technicians. It is called "spin-off", as I understand it. |
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New member Username: HallogalloNorth Carolina USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Apr-04 | Greetings, First, apologies for being away from this thread for a while. Spring is in the air and I have been planting rhododendrons and prostrate yews, instead of tweaking the turntable. Secondly, a huge thanks to Jan Vigne for the very detailed contributions to this discussion. I know I have learned a lot, and others appear to have, as well. Regarding anti-skating on the DP-11F; I believe that you balance the arm by rotating a counter weight, then adjust the stylus pressure using a dial. I do not think that you can adjust the anti-skating, but I was discussing this table with several people, so I whipped up a I got that two-point protractor from the other thread on this board and the alignment checks out. I still intend to get a new cartridge (without going over $100 on this expense), but I am improving other factors, first. After further listening, I have found that I am getting unwanted feedback during particularly loud passages, so I am still working on further acoustic isolation. As per Jan's mention of a subtable, I am now trying this; A 'cutting board' leftover from the installation of our solid-surface counter tops. It currently is supported by three clear soft plastic adhesive feet. Tapping on the shelf is surprisingly quiet. This has been a noticable improvement (lightly tapping on the shelf produces very little noise), but I may look into spikes. When I first posted, I was considering new entry-level turntables such as the NAD 533, Pro-Ject 1.2, and Music Hall MMF 2.1. But now I am considering other 'vintage' tables, such as Dual 550, Rega Planar 3 and Thorens. Recently, a Thorens TD 320 MKIII ("near mint in box!") sold for $310.00. As I have journeyed down this path, I have learned a lot from this discussion. Thanks much! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 861 Registered: Dec-03 | Hallo, Jan's three words "open the lid" did wonders for my feedback! There are two sorts - carried by the structure the turntable is on, or by the air. If whatever the turntable is on, is itself on a suspended floor, you may get feedback you cannot do much about - that is the main reason for the suspended turntable design. I cannot see from your pdfs whether that is the Denon design. Jan is the expert, but I always found wall-mounting was best. In those days, the makers would move heaven and earth to get that wow and flutter figure down so low. The direct drive turntable I once owned was a disaster because the makers (ADC) had traded off almost everything else, I think. Nice web page. Nice operating system! |
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New member Username: HallogalloNorth Carolina USA Post Number: 5 Registered: Apr-04 | Thanks for the nice feedback. I have greatly improved the feedback carried by the structure with the sub-table, but I am experiencing airborne feedback during particularly loud passages. Part of the problem is that the loudspeakers are only about 20-25 feet away from the table. I am going to evaluate it further with the cover raised and off. The Denon DP-11F is not a suspended design (and it was the entry-level table for Denon in 1982). The sound from the table is improving in increments (which I believe is the whole idea, according to Jan). I may still upgrade, but I have now greatly lengthened that timetable. BTW, great review on the NAD T533 on the front page! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 867 Registered: Dec-03 | Hallo, Thanks. Sounds like you are doing fine with that turntable. After discovering DVD-Audio, I have taken more interest in LP. I would rate sound quality, meaning detail and resolution, as DVD-A > LP > CD Ther are other considerations, of course. |
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Jan Vigne Unregistered guest | Well, quite a few things have happened to diminish my recollections of twenty years ago, if nothing else twenty years have happened. Try a few things with the Denon and then decide where to go with this table. First, take the dustcover off the table completely. Even with the cover raised the type of hinges the Japanese tables used would transmit feedback to the table and raising the lid often meant you just made it more of a collector. If that gains you anything the next step is to remove the bottom panel. If I remember correctly this should just be a few screws that are not holding anything but a pasteboard bottom panel on to the main structure. Make certain nothing is connected to the bottom before you remove everything. If the bottom panel can come off you will eliminate the box that is catching the feedback. You will also eliminate the small amount of rigidity the panel provided. Replace this with some corner straps of metal which you should be able to acquire at a hardware store. Run a strap across all four corners if possible but anything to replace the rigidity of the bottom panel is desired. Next, get the table off the original feet if you haven't already done that. Generally downward facing splikes are the best on a turntable. If you want to experiment look through the various catalogues like Music Direct or the web sites that advertise in the audio magazines and see what you can come up with on you own to get a taste of the real thing at a lower cost to begin with. If you have the bottom panel removed and that has gained you a bit more resistance to the feedback you can try to damp the inside of the table's structure with a simple rope caulk from the hardware store or some of the better, more expensive materials you can get from the specialty dealers. Sorbothane is a good, not too expensive material for damping panels. You can probably find it available for less money from a retailer other than a hifi store by searching on line for Sorbothane or constrained layer damping. You can even go to the car stereo shop and by a roll of the material they use on automobile panels to damp vibration. Put the table on a wall mount if you can, it will provide the best support for the table no matter what type of feedback you are getting. Lastly, you don't say what type of system this is going into. Is it possible to move the table to another location and run longer cables? Don't run long cables between the table and the pre amp inputs. The additional capacitance of the cables will make the sound rolled off at the high end. But if you can make a longer run between the phono section and the amplifier that would be best if at all possible. Maybe an inexpensive phono pre amp running to your reciever? All said and done, you are correct; the table was the least expensive model in the line when the Japanese manufacturers were beginging their move to CD. You can only do so much with this table and the time and effort spent here could be put to better use with a better design. You might be best to search the used audio markets to see what you can find. |
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New member Username: HallogalloNorth Carolina USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Apr-04 | Thanks for the additional info. I removed the turntable cover and eliminated a significant amount of the acoustic feedback. I think that the cover is definitely problematic with the table this close to, and directly in front of, one of the loudspeakers. I made an initial attempt to remove the base, but it appears that there may be something connected to it, so I probably will not go further with that option on this table. I added half-sphere, gel-filled feet to the sub-table and I further isolated the shelf from its metal pin supports and the abutting side and rear bookcase walls with spongy rubber adhesive pieces that are used to keep pottery and whatnot from scratching the furniture. These bookcases cover the entire wall, so a separate wall-mount for the table is not going to be practical. I can move the table about 8-10 ft. to the left or right, so I may try to get it directly out of the path of the closest loudspeaker. But so far, I have greatly improved the sound of this turntable, thanks to this discussion. ... And that is to a low-end table, before cartridge purchase. I am holding off on the cartridge, because I am now considering higher-than-entry-level vintage tables, as opposed to entry-level contemporary tables. I am tracking some Dual, Rega, and Thorens on ebay and the for-sale area here and at Audiogon. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 946 Registered: Dec-03 | Hallo, "I think that the cover is definitely problematic with the table this close to, and directly in front of, one of the loudspeakers". In the days when playing LPs was the primary purpose of a HiFi system, then people would have the turntable as far away from the speakers as possible. The ideal is to have it in a different room. I always liked this set-up, and try to keep it today, even with IR remote controls etc. Not only does it minimize feedback, but you have the "Control station" nearer to your listening position. It means long speaker cables. But speaker cables are there to serve us, not the other way round! Also, you are less likely to be distracted by the lights. At least the cult of flashing lights (level indicators etc) seems to have gone away. Still, even professional sales leaflets show the whole system all bunched together between the speakers. If you look closely, the speakers are pointing straight ahead with parallel axes (not optimal) and nothing seems to be connected to anything, yet the smiling satisfied customer appears to be in a state of reverie induced by music coming from somewhere. I suppose an audiophile is someone who decides where to put the rest of the furniture after he's found the best place for the sound system! This thread has been invaluable for me and I thank you and especially Jan for sharing his knowledge and understanding. |
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Unregistered guest | I am considering a new turntable for my stereo system (Rotel amp, pre-amp, DVD-A; KEF 105 towers; and B&W center, surrounds, and sub). I plan to rear-wall-mount a sliding drawer that will pull out of the stereo rack (will not be connected to the rack itself). (Rockler hardware Accuride series 3832 Slides, Zinc, 16'' length) Any recommendations for dampening vibrations? Will slides simply rattle too much despite the weight of the shelf and turntable? If not, can the shelf that the turntable sits on be cherry hardwood? Can the under-pillars to the shelf (that the drawer slides mount to) be made of cherry also, or would MDF be a better choice? I'm assuming that the turntable should have anti-vibration feet. I'm considering a new Thorens turntable (295, 800, 810). Do you have opinions on Thorens in general, and these models in particular? Would you recommend other turntables in this price category? Thanks in advance ! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Tables, as a rule, prefer to be as stable as possible in all planes at the same time. This rule generally suggests against slide mounts. A wall mounting device is often a good solution if the wall is stable. Today's homes have walls that vibrate when an attic fan, HVAC or large appliance is operating. If your home is near a major throughfare you might also find problems with some walls. Whether the turntable will benefit from isolation devices is a matter to be discussed with the maker of whatever table you choose. Squishy feet are seldom the solution since they remove the stability of the system as a whole. The new Thorens tables are getting good reviews. They exist in a price range where there are many competitors that offer good, though stylistically different, sound. |