Subwoofer help
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Silver Member Username: W00bPost Number: 196 Registered: Mar-05 | ok, i need help picking out a subwoofer that will be used for 100% music. my current receiver has no outputs at all (besides the speaker terminals.) however, the equalizer that i have does have ONE output that is meant to go from the equalizer to the receiver. my idea was to buy (if possible) a 2 male to 4 female rca splitter, so i could hook my subwoofer into 2 of the 4 females. otherwise i think i would have to buy (3) 1 male to 2 female converters, 1 to split the original output, and 2 more for each l/r output. so i need to know 2 things, first off if this is a good idea and second off, some recommended good subwoofer companies for around the $1000 - $1500 area. thanks alot! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2244 Registered: Mar-05 | You don't need to spend $1000-1500 for a good sub, at most $700 for a Hsu VTF-3 will be more than sufficient. www.hsuresearch.com Of course if you are a real wall-shaking bass freak, get one of these dual 12" driver SVS subs: www.svsubwoofers.com As for the hookup, just run your speaker cables through the high level inputs and the sub's crossover will work its magic. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2554 Registered: Jan-05 | Bad idea..... You might want to consider upgrading your receiver too while shopping subwoofers. If you're looking to spend that amount on a subwoofer, look no further than the SVS PB12-Plus/2. That's one mean and nasty subwoofer. You can get one of those babies in your home including cable for about $1350. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 385 Registered: Mar-04 | i'd put my $200 in parts 12" acoustic suspension subwoofer up against any ported sub any day. take a $100 box and then line it with an extra layer of 3/4" MDF and you're already ahead of most subwoofers. you don't need to spend that much on a sub. if you're not into DIY, HSU makes very highly rated subs for less money than $1,000. Hsu Research STF-3 ($600) http://www.onhometheater.com/product/20040401.htm VTF-3R ($800-900 now?) http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/hsu-vtf-3r-subwoofer-1-2004.html Hsu Research HO 1220 ($500) http://www.stereotimes.com/speak041403a.shtm plus many more reviews here at ecoustics' editorial review link. HSU subs are the darlings of the audio press for bang for the buck and sound quality. they really created a splash with their early barrel shaped subs. i'd still prefer 8" acoustic suspension myself, but i'm into speed and detail more than infrasonic gut massages. |
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Silver Member Username: W00bPost Number: 197 Registered: Mar-05 | I'm with you there, been trying to find a sealed subwoofer (i think that's what you mean when you say accoustic suspension).. however i think most subwoofers are ported low enough to not be too boomy and have fairly quick response.. i don't want to start a big sealed vs ported argument or anything but it's just what i'm guessing. a few more questions on your setup though, you said you spent about $200 in parts? what are you using to power the subwoofer, just your receiver? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1794 Registered: Feb-05 | Most musical sealed sub that I know is the Era Sub 10. Designed by Michael Kelly to compete with REL. I own it and it is fabulous. My friend uses it with his Magnepan 3.6's, he says it's the only sub he's heard that keeps up with them. They are distributed through Signal Path the same folks who distribute Musical Fidelity gear. Cost 1k in all but the piano gloss black finish which is $1100. |
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Silver Member Username: W00bPost Number: 198 Registered: Mar-05 | that thing sure does look like eye candy.. and from what you say it is ear candy. however, i'm not sure if my requirements are as high as some of yours might be. i'm into alternative metal, rock, some rap, but not into classical, i'm not so focused on how accurately instruments are reproduced. when i first came to this forum i considered myself somewhat comparable to an audiophile, but i don't think i'm nearly as picky as some of you, so i don't know what to call myself..hehe. my point being, do you think it would be beneficial for me to get a sub such as the era 10 over some $500 sub that might do the trick? i'm into tight bass response with crisp highs, but lacking midrange.. i suppose that is a way to describe it because that is how i have my EQ setup  . but to me, this is how i bring out what i like in music, i like to hear crisp highs with tight bass, and to me that is what sounds "heavenly." so, this era 10 or something else? it is in my price range, i might need some more information about it before i pick it out though. thanks again |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2257 Registered: Mar-05 | I have never heard the Era 10 but the one sealed sub I did hear (Rocket ULW-10) simply could not put out sufficient SPL in my room which is an accoustic nightmare of about 6000 cubic feet with vaulted ceilings and wrap around spaces. If you have a large room and prefer to really hear good tight bass I'd stick with a ported sub. Aside from the Hsu subs, you might also want to look at the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 which has gotten lots of rave reviews too. http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1.html |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 52 Registered: Jul-05 | Eddie is actually referring to the UFW-10, which is a top sealed sub. He was using one of mine and although we havent had this discussion yet, I can tell from the settings upon return that he didn't have it set up optimally. I doubt any room EQ was done for nulls and peaks as well. My guess is that he needs to crank to get sufficient bass due to mutiple nulls in his listening position. Not sure about that last point though. but it is important for large unusually shaped rooms with high ceilings, otherwise you crank and crank and tend to get uneven bass at various bass frequencies. Of course the goal is a flat response to the limits of the sub. I can't turn the UFW gain past 45% on the gain dial without it becoming too boomy-- in the rest of my 2100 square foot home- of course I use two at a time. Thats with my HT receiver set at +1 sub gain. The max is +10 or +12. Anyway, to go from a subjective to objective discussion- there have been fairly detailed measurements and comparisons between Rocket Subs, HSU offerings, SVS, and Velodyne. Those are all posted at avsforum.com in the subwoofer section and the lead poster is craigsub, so you can search that name and read his threads, which get quite a cauldron of sub specific folks talkin. The Rocket UFW-10 is the best for music I have heard but that Era Sub 10, which I have not heard, sounds like a good one. I actually removed subs from my music set ups altogether, but when I did have them combined with HT, one alone was wonderful for music. Two was too much bass for the music.The ufw-10 is limited to 24HZ usable bass extension, not surprising for a sealed sub. SVS is DA Bomb for action HT shake rattle and roll, but for true musicality, it can in no way do justice to Dave Holland's bass work or Tony Levin's either ( Peter Gabriel fame on that last one) as examples. These are all opinions and mine only, other than referring to the avsforum posts,which are really there!! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2267 Registered: Mar-05 | Have to concede that Marc is right in that I did not EQ the sub to my room and it's likely that a more experienced user of that sub would have had the settings differently. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5862 Registered: May-04 | The original poster has stated there should be no battle of sealed vs. ported enclosures. But, Ed, it is impossible to take your recommendation of a ported design seriously unless you provide some reasoning for why a sealed enclosure shouldn't work well in a large room. Preferring "good, tight bass" is typically desired by most listeners, even to the point of the bass becoming overly dry and lacking overtones and structure. Once again, however, the idea one enclosure type has the market on "good, tight bass" is a bit of an overreach. Ed, your room, being roughly twice the size of the average living room, is very unlike what most listeners have to deal with. With your lay out you have problems most other listeners would never encounter. This doesn't make your experience less valuable, but it does make it more circumspect for other people. Particularly in this instance, I would prefer to hear why you think a ported enclosure is better based on some repeated observation or logical reasoning other than what you find in your uncommon situation. Marc - Your comments have me wondering about two subs being too much for music. Is it possible placement in your room became the issue rather than the two subs themself? While it is quite easy to get too much bass with one sub in many rooms, the addition of the second sub will often smooth out the room problems and give "better" bass response when the subs are placed properly. A recent article in the September issue of HiFi News went into detail about the benefits of multiple subwoofers with smaller, faster drivers when properly placed with in a room. The emphasis was on music reproduction, though the article made it clear the same principles of acoustics held true for HT use also. T8 also linked to an article by Floyd Toole from the Harman Labs which detailed his experiments in multiple subwoofers. Here it is; http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=1003.0. Did you do much experimentation with placement in your room, Marc? |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 54 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan--Yes on the placement. I have read that paper on the optimal number of subs where they went from one to like fifty in experimental design and settled on 2 or 4 subs as being optimal and then diagramed optimal positioning as well. I agree about your comment regarding smoothing out with two subs. I really agree and it is quite a logical conclusion as well. I also use the white paper on sub adjustments and placement at avs123.com which was written for my sub. It is a good general read as well The reason why two was too much for my music lsitening is alrgely becuase how I like my HT ( spicy mustard) and my music ( smooth and detailed) are two different animals and I didn't recalibrate/adjust when going between the two cuz I am lazy and it would involve daily adjustments. So I just used one and was satisfied. I have been through all kinds of sub set ups in my less than optimal HT room ( by dimensions otherwise I love even having one) and currently have them in the front corners facing. I am aware that that does not match the two general best options for two sub rooms, but its the best I can do for this room and seems to work reasonably well. Of course the whole sub placement and adjustment issue is quite detailed and I am by no means an expert on this. |
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Silver Member Username: W00bPost Number: 199 Registered: Mar-05 | ok, im a bit worried now if some subs will be too much for my system. my receiver is (i think) rated at 70wpc, it might be underrated, definately not overrated. to be honest, i can't really handle volumes past the 2.5 mark (out of 10) on my receiver. the receiver is rather old (1984) and i can't find specs on it anywhere. it's an AKAI AM-A70. my speakers are also 3 way AKAI speakers, claim to handle 80-130w of power. each speaker includes a 300mm (about 12") woofer, 100mm midrange driver, and 77mm tweeter. so in addition to all of my original questions, at what point in a subwoofer would the subwoofer be 'overtaking' my system? |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 55 Registered: Jul-05 | Subwoofers have their own amps and gain controls- you can adjust it to no volume if you want. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2587 Registered: Jan-05 | A sub gain/volume control is no different than that for a receiver. For the same reasons you would never turn your receiver to full volume, you'll rarely turn the gain much higher than %50 on a sub. Well, that is unless you're a bass freak who likes to run your subwoofer at an extremely 'hot' level relative to the rest of the soundtrack. However, just because you dont turn a 'small' sub past 45% doesnt mean that a there isnt room for more subwoofer. For example, any cheap sub will play loud enough to blend itself with the rest of a 5.1 soundtrack at a modest gain setting, but that doesnt mean it does it well. I guess what Im trying to say is that where you set the gain is irrelevent to subwoofer quality. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2281 Registered: Mar-05 | > The original poster has stated there should be no battle of sealed vs. ported enclosures. But, Ed, it is impossible to take your recommendation of a ported design seriously unless you provide some reasoning for why a sealed enclosure shouldn't work well in a large room. No reasoning attempted, just a little anecdotal experience between only two different models in the same room. From a pure SPL standpoint, the ported Hsu rolled all over the sealed Rocket. > Preferring "good, tight bass" is typically desired by most listeners, even to the point of the bass becoming overly dry and lacking overtones and structure. Not so sure about that, Jan. Probably more true among more sophisticated and higher-end music listeners but for most HT consumers, sheer (sloppy) boom boom is what sells 'em judging by the predominant local retail and HTIB subs. > Once again, however, the idea one enclosure type has the market on "good, tight bass" is a bit of an overreach. That was not my idea. I was merely saying that you get more SPL out of a ported design, if comparing two subs of similar pricepoint and size/power. Of course I don't blame you for misunderstanding my sentence, "If you have a large room and prefer to really hear good tight bass I'd stick with a ported sub." I should have substituted "loud" for "tight" in that sentence, though I do think that Hsu provides a decent balance between SPL and SQ (YMMV of course). Though considering that the Hsu cost $200 less than the Rocket, I'd certainly take the former's slight loss of music SQ in exchange for its greater SPL any day. Then again if Marc is correct that this was due to me not EQing the Rocket sub and possibly even screwing up the settings I'll have to retract all of my comments on the subject. LOL isn't audio-opinionating fun... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2282 Registered: Mar-05 | PS. Oops, didn't see that the original poster said he's a 100% music listener... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2601 Registered: Jan-05 | my opinion is that you fudge puckers have no clue what real bass is. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 56 Registered: Jul-05 | Well. real bass is what you hear when you sit in front of a great Jazz or Rock bassist at a live show, or perhaps a stand up bass in an orchestra. It's also what you catch cook and fry if you are a real fisherman. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2285 Registered: Mar-05 | Marc: LOL!!! Of course some gynephobic troglodytes prefer to imagine that real bass is feeling a bunch of explosions and rumbles from a bunch of retarded big-budget action flicks rattle their walls and light fixtures...LOL |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 422 Registered: Mar-04 | real bass is in the ear of the beholder. some people like the wall shaking gut massage of 15" woofers in giant ported cabinets, while some people like me think any woofer over 8" that isn't in a sealed box is a fat butt resonant one note slowpoke. if you want bass extension and higher volume levels... go with larger drivers and ported cabinets if you prefer speed and detail and don't mind a little rolloff or woofers hungry for power, go with smaller drivers in sealed cabinets. there is no right and wrong... there is only what each person prefers. one person's "anemic" is anothers lighning fast kick in the butt. on the other hand... one person's echoing "boom boom boom" headache is another person's happy stomach massage. |
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Silver Member Username: W00bPost Number: 207 Registered: Mar-05 | browsing some DIY forums, it looks like it wouldn't be a good idea to hook a car sub up to a plate amplifier for one, which was my original idea.. but on to plan B, im looking for some subwoofer drivers. alot of the people on the forum i have been looking at appear to be fans of "Dayton" subwoofers, does anyone know if these are any good? thanks |
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