Is My Wire Too Big?
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Unregistered guest | I bought some heavy duty speaker wire on ebay and I think I may have went overboard. This speaker wire is 12 guage and I will use it if it is the right thing to do. My reciever is 120 watts and my speakers will all handle more. (2 front, sub, center, surround). Is my wire too big? |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 413 Registered: Jul-05 | It won't hurt anything, if that is what you want to know. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1119 Registered: Feb-05 | Too big for what purpose? Will it adversely affect the sound? No. Will it fit into a small crevice? No. |
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VotePedro Unregistered guest | Thanks... all I needed to know. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5814 Registered: May-04 | VP - We know what's too big; don't we? |
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Anonymous | Speaker wire is, by far, the single most important component you can buy. I suggest you spend at LEAST twice as much for your speaker wire as you do for your speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1121 Registered: Feb-05 | "Speaker wire is, by far, the single most important component you can buy." You must be out of your mind to expect any reasonanble person to accept this blanket statement. Then again, Jan might accept it. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 245 Registered: Dec-04 | Hey, Dale, can't you recognise a joke when you see one?  |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1122 Registered: Feb-05 | I don't think intentionally misleading people is the least bit funny. Some poor uninitiated soul might take that advice seriously. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 246 Registered: Dec-04 | I didn't say it was a funny joke. I see your point, I suppose. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 561 Registered: May-05 | Dale wrote - "Will it adversely affect the sound? No." It can absolutley effect the sound. Did you ask him the nominal impedence of the speakers? How about how long of a wire run? I thought you were more intelligent than this Dale. 12 gauge speaker wire can be insufficient at times. What if he's got 4 ohm speakers and needs a 100 ft run of wire? It's not going to sound very good at all with 12 guage wire is it? Pedro - Here's a link for determining what size speaker wire you need for different lengths and different speaker loads. Also keep in mind that speaker loads (impedence) are not static. Just because a speaker says 8 ohms, doesn't mean it can't dip down to 4 or less for peaks of music. When in doubt, get larger speaker wire. http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable Scroll down to the wire table section. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1123 Registered: Feb-05 | Stu Pid has spoken. Long live the king of intelligence who both got his degree free and also worked for it. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1124 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh by the way Stu Pid, the original poster was satisfied. Who gives a crap what you think? 4 ohm speakers-give me a break. If you are looking for something to criticize, I would hope a person of your intelligence could do better than that. Must be those free and paid for degrees. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 545 Registered: Apr-04 | Dale however did you rack up so many posts without knowing anything about anything? |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1127 Registered: Feb-05 | Responding to idiots like you who know even less. |
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Wiley is Stupid Unregistered guest | good to see that you liked it, you moron, s h i t l e s s Kid. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 549 Registered: Apr-04 | Ahhhhh jeez Dale, I'm insulted!! By the way.........what is you bio? Why do you hide what you own? For a Mr. know it all I would of at least expected a complete bio with bragging rights and all! You are letting us down. You certainly get upset with your responses don't you? Does the truth hurt? |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1129 Registered: Feb-05 | You need to consult with Stu. He can explain the apparent inconsistencies in my personality type. |
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Wiley is Stupid Unregistered guest | oh oh I can explain please let me. ok,Wiley is an idiot. See, that was easy! |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1014 Registered: Jun-05 | Its not that hard to explain your peronality,humm I think I got it wait a minute I know I got Your Fuck1ing Idiotic Pr1ck!!! |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 319 Registered: Feb-05 | Hey give it a rest guys! We are here to talk about audio not act like a bunch of jerks! 12 AWG wire should be satisfactory for just about any situation. Keep in mind that wire resistance is measured in miliOhms per/ft or thousandths of 1 Ohm! So it would on average take hundreds of feet of 12 AWG to equate to one single Ohm of resistance. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1130 Registered: Feb-05 | Thank you Eric. My sentiments exactly notwithstanding the idiotic posts. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 563 Registered: May-05 | Dale - I've been a little busy at work, and didn't have time to immediately respond to you're comments. We all know you require a lot of immediate attention. I'm sorry I slipped up. "4 ohm speakers-give me a break." Once again, your level of intelligence is apparent. Do you deny the existence of 4 ohm speakers? Or do you believe that they are so rare and valuable that no one here could possibly own them? 'Give ME a break' as you like to say. Eric - Are you saying that the Roger Russell's (former engineer for McIntosh) wire gauge chart is inaccurate? According to him, with 12 gauge wire you shouldn't go over 60 feet with a 4 ohm load. Also keep in mind that impedence levels aren't static. Is it unheard of for an 8 ohm speaker to dip down to 4 ohms for brief moments? According to his chart it doesn't take 100's of feet for speaker wire to be inadequate. For 12 gauge at a static 8 ohm load you shouldn't go over 120 feet. Emphasis on static. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 320 Registered: Feb-05 | Stu: I'm talking impedence from a purely DCR standpoint. On the average a typical 12AWG speaker wire is about 3-3.5 milliOhms. This equates to .003-.0035. If you do the math, and multiply that by 1K you get 3.3-3.5 Ohms for 1K feet of wire. so with about 300' of wire you have about 1Ohm. Impedence levels certainly aren't static in a speaker but they quite are in a wire. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1138 Registered: Feb-05 | Right again, Eric. But Stu will continue to hound you. He is seeking an answer for the guy who has 4ohm speakers and wants to locate them across continents away from his receiver/amp. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 566 Registered: May-05 | Dale - I like how you try to take shots at me, yet never end up with an answer to very simple questions. "Do you deny the existence of 4 ohm speakers?" Just like many times in the past, you've tried to hide behind insults and evade a very simple and easy question. I'd like to know the answer to that. As far as long runs are concerned, have you ever heard of multi room or zone installation? What if the receiver is in the living room in the front of the house, and it is powering a pair of remote 8 speakers on his deck? I'd be willing to bet he would need more than 120 feet of speaker wire for this set up. Would 12 gauge be adequate for this scenario? According to an electrical engineer from one of the most respected companies in home audio, no. According to Eric Ramsey, yes. Personally, I'd go with the McIntosh engineer. Is the front of the house to deck scenario unlikely? Absolutely. Is it impossible? Absolutely not. Did you bother to ask before you handed out your impeccible advice? Absolutely not. I'll try to wade through your countless insults for an answer to these questions. These aren't very difficult questions to answer as long as you stay on track. I know it's going to take a while to get you to admit you're wrong. But you'll crack, just like you did in the phono thread. So MOFO, here's a summary of my questions - Do 4 ohm speakers exist? Is it impossible to have runs of speaker cable over 120 feet? Do you believe that the electrical engineer from McIntosh is wrong and you are right? I'm eagerly awaiting your usual hiding behind insults and not answering questions. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 567 Registered: May-05 | I meant to say remote 8 OHM speakers on the deck, not remote 8 speakers. Sorry for the confusion. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1139 Registered: Feb-05 | To deny the existence of empirically verifiable phenomena would not be logical. But they are on the endangered species list as far as HT is concerned. I don't need to take shots at you. You already suffer from a chronic form of foot in the mouth disease. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 568 Registered: May-05 | Since when are you logical? I'll take your post as an admission of you being corrected. What about the other questions - Is it impossible to have runs of speaker cable over 120 feet? Do you believe that the electrical engineer from McIntosh is wrong and you are right? I'm trying to figure out exactly when I've put my foot in my mouth when I've talked to you. Funny thing is I've proven you wrong on a couple of occasions. You continually need to take shots at people to obscure the fact that you're wrong. Your last post is another piece of evidence in that matter. Please, remove your foot from your mouth and answer the questions. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1140 Registered: Feb-05 | "Is it impossible to have runs of speaker cable over 120 feet?" If you can't answer this question for yourself, please go back to kindergarten. Free degrees I guess."Do you believe that the electrical engineer from McIntosh is wrong and you are right?" Yes. Satisfied? You've never proven anything, least of all me wrong. Well, let me correct that. You have proven your ignorance beyond anyone's doubt. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 569 Registered: May-05 | Once again, you've hidden behind insults to obscure facts. It took you a while to admit that 4 ohm speakers exist, and speaker wire can exceed 120 feet. I'm proud of you. This is a step in the right direction, even though you resorted to insults and never came out and said you were wrong. I guess you really do know more about this stuff than I or anyone else here does, seeing as how you know more about it than an electrical engineer from McIntosh. Remember the post a few days back when I said you thought you were so much better and smarter than everyone else, and you couldn't figure out where that one came from? Do I need more examples? Like I said before... It's too bad you don't see what everyone else here sees. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1145 Registered: Feb-05 | "Remember the post a few days back when I said you thought you were so much better and smarter than everyone else, and you couldn't figure out where that one came from? Do I need more examples?" More? You haven't given one yet. I simply disagree with the engineer's conclusions, assuming you have correctly conveyed them. If, in your view, that makes me "better and smarter" then thanks for the kind words. Never felt that being different was synonymous with being better or smarter until your posts. Are you sure you have a degree in counseling? Seems like you have severe difficulty reading with comprehension. Carefully read my posts and you will find that in virtually every instance you have purposely misstated what I have asserted. For example, I never stated 4ohm speakers did not exist and I challenge you to prove otherwise. You can't. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 570 Registered: May-05 | "Do you believe that the electrical engineer from McIntosh is wrong and you are right?" Yes. Satisfied?" One example of thinking you are better and smarter than everyone else. Danman: "Dale however did you rack up so many posts without knowing anything about anything?" Reply: Responding to idiots like you who know even less. A second example. "'Speaker wire is, by far, the single most important component you can buy.' You must be out of your mind to expect any reasonanble person to accept this blanket statement. Then again, Jan might accept it." A third example. "My sentiments exactly notwithstanding the idiotic posts." A fourth example. All in one thread. Should I go to other threads or is this enough? Are you starting to understand why everytime you open your mouth there's a huge arguement between you and everyone else here? Like I said before... Too bad you don't see what everyone else here sees. __________________________________________________ "For example, I never stated 4ohm speakers did not exist and I challenge you to prove otherwise. You can't." "4 ohm speakers-give me a break." Twice I asked - "Do you deny the existence of 4 ohm speakers?" You never responded. So I then asked - "Do 4 ohm speakers exist?" When did I say you said 4 ohm speakers don't exist? I said - "It took you a while to admit they exist." __________________________________________________ "I simply disagree with the engineer's conclusions, assuming you have correctly conveyed them." How could I incorrectly convey this information? It's a TABLE. I left a link for anyone who wanted it to click on to verify what I said. The only way what I said could have been remotely misinterpreted is if you in fact didn't check the link. Maybe I'm wrong, but the way you come off, it seems highly unlikely that you did check it. How do you argue or disagree with something when you haven't looked at it? Ignorance. Here's the chart again, in case you missed it. Scroll down a little way after you click on it. http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable __________________________________________________ "You've never proven anything, least of all me wrong." Let me try to summarize how I've proven you wrong. "Will it adversely affect the sound? No." You so elequently admit the existince of 4 ohm speakers and runs of more than 60 feet. According to Roger Russell, if you use 4 ohm nominal impedence speakers with a 12 gauge wire and your wire length is more than 60 feet, then sound will in fact be adversely effected. That's not me proving you wrong, that's actually Roger Russell proving you wrong. So I guess you were right. My mistake. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 321 Registered: Feb-05 | Stu, I am not saying Mr. Russell is wrong. I respect his credentials and career 100%. You must realize however, that this chart is very conservative. Mr. Russell readily admits that speakers are NOT a constant fixed impedence. He also says that in some cases the speakerwire could be kept within 10% of the overall impedence rating,without audible effect, instead of the 5% that his chart is based on. The question is then if 10% is acceptable would this not effectively DOUBLE the lengths for wire in each section of the chart? Speakers are by no means a static impedence, they are very much the opposite,very dynamic in nature. This chart seems to be based on the assumption of a fixed steady impedence which is impossible in a speaker through the audio frequency spectrum 20Hz-20kHz! If anyone on this forum can give me a brand name of a speaker that has very little or no variation in impedence through the entire audio frequency range I will buy them as well as myself a pair of these "magical" speakers. If you take into account only the resistance of the wire itself and not it's inteaction with a speaker this resistance is rather inconsequential,that is my point. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 322 Registered: Feb-05 | To further clarify my positon, Mr. Russell is a man of considerable knowledge and earnestly respectable,but I think his chart is a bit presumptious and does take into consideration many other electrical design aspects associated with speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1150 Registered: Feb-05 | Stu Pid, you are seriously delusional. None of my quotations supports your theory. But I do like the attention. Eric also disagrees with your expert. Does that also make him better and smarter in your view. You are way out of your league here. Some of us are Dr. McCoys (you) and others are Spocks. But regardless of our predispositions, it does not make us better or smarter. Didn't they teach you that in counseling 101. Give up before we have to call the paddy wagon. The MOFO has spoken. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 580 Registered: May-05 | Dale - Delusional? Once again, you've hidden behind insults and personal attacks and haven't addressed anything of value. Here's the agruement at it's core. You stated that 12 gauge speaker wire will not adversely effect sound. You never stated their were any exceptions to this, even when asked. I argued that 12 guage wire can be inadequate. I gave instances where it could be. I then backed up my theories by quoting a Table writen by a very well respected elcctrical engineer. The basis of my arguement has been backed up by citing a Table written in a sceintific manner. The basis of your arguement has been backed up by absolutely nothing more than an 'I'm right and everyone else is wrong' mentality. If you are right and I'm wrong, show me published proof. Until that day comes - and I won't be holding my breath - you're way out of your league. I understand why Eric disagrees with the expert because he gave valid reasons to disagree. You on the contrary didn't give a single one and waited until he pointed them out so that you could try to say 'I told you so.' Here's the thing - If this was the only chart in existence, I'd have to reconsider. Seeing as how just about every speaker manufacturer has published very similar results, give or take a few feet, does Eric know something they all don't know? I have proven you wrong by citing scientific evidence. I can point to at least a dozen more sources that concur with the one I've pointed out. You have not proven me wrong by any stretch of the imagination. Find some published evidence to prove what I've said is wrong. I'm way out of my league here? |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1154 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh, I see. Since Eric elected to disclose his reasons, it's ok? "I'm way out of my league here?" You said it. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 581 Registered: May-05 | One more thing Dale - If you can't see how you think you're so much better and smarter than everyone else by my couple of examples, let me put it another way. Who here is smarter than you? I can't recall the last time you spoke with anyone here in a manner in which you didn't insult them. The only person's intelligence you haven't insulted is Paul's. I guess you're both on the same wavelength. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 582 Registered: May-05 | What are your reasons, citing imperical evidence? I'm the only one who has thus far. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1157 Registered: Feb-05 | As usual, you haven't read or comprehended my posts. I have complimented many posters. However, very doubtful your entries would merit much more than derision. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 588 Registered: May-05 | I love how you hide behind insults without answering questions. Here it is again, in case you missed it - What are your reasons (for denying Roger Russell's findings), citing imperical evidence? |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1161 Registered: Feb-05 | Boy are the idiots out in full force today-dumb, dumber, dumbest and Stu. Must have touched a nerve. I'm shaking in my boots. The MOFO has spoken. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 591 Registered: May-05 | You must have missed the post the last time, here it is again - "I love how you hide behind insults without answering questions. Here it is again, in case you missed it - What are your reasons (for denying Roger Russell's findings), citing imperical evidence?" I know what my mistake here is... I'm waiting for an educated answer from you. |
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Gold Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 1173 Registered: Feb-05 | How about this? I agree with Eric as I previously stated. Does that help? The MOFO has spoken...again. |
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