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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 514 Registered: May-05 | The Outlaw amp/pre-amp will cost just under $2000 with shipping. I've read the reviews but you can't demo without purchasing these. As always, the reviews are impressive and I like the fact that most of the reviewers comment on the musicality of these components. The NAD components are pricier, $2500 usually with free shipping. You get another 15 wpc but that's probably a toss-up in reality. Again, the reviews are very good BUT the nearest NAD dealer is in Seattle, a little far to drive to listen, AS USUAL. The feature sets on the pre-amps are fairly similar, each has a few things that might be considered "better" than the other. The NAD stereo music settings sound interesting but a little gimicky. Anyone who has actually heard all of these and compared them, I'd be interested in your thoughts and evaluation. Anything else in this price range, approx. $2000 for separates that anyone would recommend? If I'm going to go this route, I'll probably avoid used, although I have looked hard at the Outlaw 7100/950 combo. While I'm contemplating the separates, I've considered just buying the amp and using my Denon for a pre-amp for now and adding a pre-amp later (Art's idea and it goes down easier for the wife). What's the upside and downside to this? And, I know one of you is going to say I need to listen to them first and compare. LOOK, I'm in the audio desert here and it just doesn't work. I could wait until I get over to Seattle and I could listen to the NADs and some higher priced non-options for comparison but the only way to listen to the Outlaws is to buy them. Any other thoughts or options will be appreciated, as always. Paul, don't even ask how I got the wife to go for this? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2056 Registered: Mar-05 | sheesh, the man's got $2000 to play with and he won't even... Well, I won't start! : ) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 515 Registered: May-05 | Ed, Come on now, I just read the Panny addition and, OK, you're hooked. I've always avoided illegal substances that bend the mind beyond it's intended boundaries, so if I go digital I probably wouldn't go back, to misquote one of your earlier quotes. LOL Anyway, I'll never say never because I could pick up the Panny at BB or CC and check it out quietly and then sneak it back and continue in my current path. OR NOT!!! Plus, if I bring the dang thing home, play for wife and she likes it better than the Denon and it's only $250, I'll never get that $2000 back to play with. So, now what do you say, Edster Man |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2063 Registered: Mar-05 | aw that's easy, just tell her the Panny cost $2000 and pocket the change... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2479 Registered: Jan-05 | Dak, That's an easy choice. Go with the Outlaw!!! You dont even want to mess with the defective prone NAD stuff. |
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Anonymous | dear, how'd you graduate from Special Ed? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 516 Registered: May-05 | OK, I've got Paul with one vote for the Outlaw. Anyone else wish to weigh in? Especially on the other questions I posed? Thanks, Dave |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 539 Registered: Apr-04 | Paul............go home to your Cerwin Veggies! Dak........I seriously doubt that the Panasonic could go near the 973! Digital or not this combo is amazing and very powerful! I have heard both and no comparison at all especially if music is a concern! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 517 Registered: May-05 | Danman, So, you've heard the new 7125/990 combo or the older 7100/950 combo. (I'll concede that I didn't see much difference in the 7125 vs. the 7100 other than the 25 wpc. But, the 990 looked to be a much bigger improvement over the 950.) So, let me know which set-up you've heard. If it was the 7125/990, I'd be very interested in your opinion on the differences in sound, especially in 2 channel and multi-channel music, between the Outlaws and the NAD. Thanks as always, Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1702 Registered: Feb-05 | You know where I stand! NAD over Outlaw anyday. In fact I would take the Rotel Pre/pro and amp over the Outlaw. Paul you have no history with the NAD pre/pro or power amp so behave yourself. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 540 Registered: Apr-04 | The Nad gets the music right. I know I may be partial since I own them so I will repeat that I hope you could audition them. I am a music person but if ever I were to by a 7 channel amp and pre, these would be my choice! This is only my opinion and you must make a decision for yourself..........just don't listen to Paul no matter what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He'll have you buying used Cerwin Vegas and Bose to go with your used 1982 Pluton amp! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 518 Registered: May-05 | Dan, I sold my used 1982 Pluton amp and replaced it with an '84, heard it was a good year. I just learned that there, actually, may be a NAD dealer near Cd'A Idaho, about 30 minutes from the house. So, we'll see if listening first may actually be option. (But as Art knows, our "dealers" in this area sometimes aren't. Paradigm dealer had absolulely no speakers in stock but was HAPPY to order them for me, with a slight restocking fee if I didn't buy them.) Of course, if I wanted to hear several different Paradigm models that was a real problem. LOL As usual, Art gets special deference from me on options so I'll may give the 30 minute trip a whirl. Thanks guys, Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 134 Registered: Jun-05 | My vote goes to the Outlaws... I do like the NAD sound but Outlaw gives a helluva bang for the buck. Check out the Oulaw forums and see if there's someone near you who'll give you a listen. For the record, you won't lose too much by using your Denon as a pre/pro with an outboard amp vs. using a dedicated pre/pro |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 519 Registered: May-05 | OK, this is another classic. I called the NAD dealer and asked him if he had a T973/T163 combo. Him, "a P what?" Me, "No, a T as in Tom." Him, "What are these?" Me, "an amp and pre/pro separates." Him, "I'll look." Wait 3 minutes. "No, I don't have "one" and I don't know when I might get one." Me: "Do you have any NAD separates that you showroom?" Him, "well, no, but we have a NAD received and a DVD player." Me, "Anything else by NAD?" Him, "no." Like, I said, I live in the audio desert. LOL!!! Ziggy, thanks for the input. I'll give that a try and see if I can't actually hear something before I buy but I'm not holding my breath. Thanks again guys. Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 543 Registered: Apr-04 | Well,that is interesting! If I were you, I would email NAD about that concern! They should not allow him to be a dealer! If my dealer does not have a model in stock and I want to hear it, he will call them and find a way to receive a demo for me! NEVER would he charge me a fee for this service! I can't tell you what to say but only be careful about bang for the buck stuff. Think about service because no matter what you buy, it can break and if it does........are you going to have good service? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2518 Registered: Jan-05 | Dak, That was classic!!! That's NAD customer service for ya..... LOL |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 550 Registered: Apr-04 | Goes to show how much you know Paul! He talked about a "dealer" stupid NOT the company! Is it possible for you to know less about audio? My God man, read a little! Stick to your Pluton amp and Cermin Voodo's! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1720 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul you idiot, he said the NAD dealer not NAD. That would be poor customer service on the part of the dealer not NAD. If I go to Best Buy and get the usual 12 yr old audio inbecile that works there, would I blame the poor customer service on Harman Kardan? Let's hope you actually know the answer to that question. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2524 Registered: Jan-05 | It doesnt surprise me that NAD sets up 2-bit dealers who dont even know what they're selling. I mean, c'mon...just look at their terrible AV units. Any reputable company would have better trained and informed dealers. Any fool would realize that it's NADs responsibility to oversee, support, and train the dealers and see they represent them according to company guidelines. For example, could you imagine going into your local Harley Dealer and asking about the new 2006 Heritage Softtail Classic, and the sales rep says....."duh, whats that?" LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2152 Registered: Mar-05 | geez, somebody needs to move that needle! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 520 Registered: May-05 | Hey guys, thanks for the wonderful input on my original questions. (Yes, that is me with my tongue in cheek.) Just kidding!!! On this one, Paul has a point - No, not blaming NAD, BUT, NAD should have some requirements for dealers to stock their gear and be able to demo it for customers without the customer being required to order it first. I mean, I'm sorry, this is now two dealers, one Paradigm and one NAD where their sales approach is "just buy it" and if you don't like it, we'll take it back for a slight restocking fee. You don't need to listen to it first. Now, what's the first thing each and every one of you guys told me as a newbie, listen to the stuff first and trust your own ears, right? NO CAN DO IN LITTLE OLE SPOKALOO!!!! MCOMNL I may have to go buy the Panny just to find something to compare the Denon to for now, anyway. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1723 Registered: Feb-05 | Like like I've said Dave, no Paradigm or NAD dealer here behaves like that. On the other hand you can buy Yamaha at the local junk store manned by children who have more interest in ipods than hifi. If you make it to Oregon go see Teri at Stereotypes of Jeff and Tim at Bradford's you'll get the picture. There is no Yamaha or Panasonic dealer anywhere that I am aware of that provides the kind of customer service that the average NAD or Paradigm dealer does. You've run across 2 in Spokane which probably speaks more about Spokane than the brands involved. I wouldn't dismiss the gear over the 2 local dealers. It's kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1724 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul, call Jim Ott owner of Northwest Audio Labs the NAD dealer in Corvallis, Oregon. See if you can keep up with him in a conversation for more than 30 seconds. Good luck. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1725 Registered: Feb-05 | Dave, per the NAD dealer locator there is no authorized NAD dealer in Spokane. The nearest is Hayden, Idaho. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 522 Registered: May-05 | Art, That was the dealer I contacted. It's about a 30 minute drive from Spokane. However, it sounded more like CC than NAD. I'd be curious to know whether they are "dealers" for any one else and whether they carry anything? Fortunately, we're visiting out kids in Utah next weekend so I'll see if I can't find a decent audio shop around SLC. Recommendations anyone? Thanks, Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1023 Registered: Jun-05 | Guys I hate to say it but Paul is right being in the industry for so long I have seen time in and time out Nad being a true hi fi company are the most loose ive seen with their dealer networking they will let anyone sell their gear,but they do have their true special dealers that they pay close attention to.Nad can afford to do that though they do have the most sales of any audiophile company and remember knowone covers the globe like they do. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1726 Registered: Feb-05 | Tawaun, I don't buy it there are too few authorized dealers in Oregon for that to be so. NAD and Rotel have about the same standards. Looser than Boothroyd Stuart Meridian and tighter than HK. Somewhere in between just like their gear. I know 2 authorized and 1 unauthorized dealer personally and I just don't think they would agree. |
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Unregistered guest | Let's keep NAD in their proper perspective. NAD is, was and has always been a small company - audiophile or not. This has already been posted: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0510/172_print.html Audiophile McIntosh virtually ='s NAD in revenues: http://www.hometoys.com/releases/mar03/dandm_01.htm According to this, pages 14, 15, 16 - NAD has no market share to speak of: http://www.dm-holdings.com/eng/ir/presentations/2004/document/20041116_en.pdf Audiophile B&K, Krell, Adcom exceed NAD's market share which is not even noted. Neither is Harman Kardon's for that matter. It's one thing to embellish the NAD sound and yet another, to me, to exaggerate the overall impact of the company. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 577 Registered: May-05 | I've had similar problems with NAD dealers, and I live in the metro NYC area. Of the approx 30 dealers within a 50 mile radius of my zip code, only 2 consistantly have the stuff on the floor. Both are the same company - Harvey Electronics. The ones that don't have any on display say they can 'special order' it. If I want to return it, they charge a restocking fee. I also had the same problem when I lived in Albany, NY. That dealer was a very good one. They'd refund the whole amount if the person wasn't happy. They claimed that NAD was a difficult company to deal with. They would promise them say 50 units, and only deliver 10 at best. They sold NAD on an individual order basis after about 10 years of frustration. Then when they special ordered stuff, they'd get complaints from NAD because they were ordering 1 or 2 at a time, and would deliver it late. They dropped the NAD line about a year ago, saying that they couldn't run a business that way. I don't blame them. The store always said it was the best stuff dollar for dollar that they ever had - the 2 channel stuff anyway, but that's another arguement - but they were the stupidest company business wise that they've ever dealt with. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1035 Registered: Jun-05 | Stu said it correctly their are a lot of Nad dealer that really dont stock them and they never deliver the amout product they are supposed to unless its small order.The bad thing about Nad is they list all these dealers but knowone ever has them in stock they are either a Psb dealer or custom instalation companies Nads customer service or dealer networking is nowhere near Rotels Art. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 524 Registered: May-05 | Well guys, I've got the names of three "NAD" dealers in SLC. I'll go visit them all. One of them is very impressive - but it doesn't list NAD as a brand it carries. But, it has Arcam, Anthem, Lexicon and stuff way outa my price range (yeah, I know that include's Lexicon.) Anyway, they also carry Paradigm, Art. So, finally, I'll get to listen to your Paradigm, hopefully, teamed with a NAD setup. Anyway, I'm getting excited. And, my wife just decided to let me sell one of her Kinkade paintings. So, with the bucks from that and what I've gathered from other sales, I'm within range of the Outlaw separates and I should get close to the price of the NAD separates. Anything else I should be looking at in the $2500 range for separates, guys? P.S. - Paul, see, this is how you masterfully work the wife for what you want, LOL. No threats, no my way or the highway, just a few hints, a birthday, some joint house cleaning and hints about more expensive stuff being a huge improvement in her HT. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 527 Registered: May-05 | Anyone able to comment on the Anthem PVA7 and Anthem pre/pro combo? The reviews on these are incredible BUT are they in the $2000 - $2500 price range or are they out of my league? How about putting the PVA7 with another company's pre/pro? Any downside to mixing company's components? And last but not least, and you know I'm kidding don't you about leaving you alone after you answre this one, should I be looking at something with 105 wpc or 125 wpc or even the NAD's 140 wpc when I can afford the Outlaw 770 at 200 wpc or another similarly rated amp and I could get by with my Denon as the pre/pro for now? Look I know several of you suggested separating my stereo listening from the HT AND I strongly considered that but it's just not going to work in our household. The HT and music will likely do double duty until we move somewhere else, NOT IN THE NEAR FUTURE, and I can have a separate room for music. Anyway, that's why I abandoned the concept of the upgraded tube amp and Tim's Lings or Emmas, it just isn't going to happen. BUT, my lovely wife did agree to the upgrade in order to keep my whining to a minimum. Thanks guys, as always. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1731 Registered: Feb-05 | I went shopping today Dave. Big announcement coming up and NAD AVR's may be on the wrong end of it. To put it another way, I now have a Yammie. Full report sometime this weekend. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 532 Registered: May-05 | I'm confused. Art with a Yammie is like Moses deciding to stop for takeout instead of parting the Red Sea. "Hey guys, don't worry, they'll never catch us and I'm really hungry after all that staff waving." |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1758 Registered: Feb-05 | Remember David this ain't the Yammie of the big box stores. That would be the HTR series which sucks (he says hoping not to offend anyone). |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 236 Registered: Dec-03 |
So...are you saying the RXV-657 (stree price of $350) is a better receiver than the HTR5890 (street price $500) which according to various audio forums is virtually identical to the RXV-1500? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1760 Registered: Feb-05 | The RX-V657 retails for $550 and the HTR5890 retails for $850 just like the RX-V1500. I don't know that I have listened to that model of HTR but the ones that I am accustomed to hearing have sounded bright and sibilant. What they "street" for I have no idea. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 537 Registered: May-05 | I'm simply perplexed now. I played my new set-up for a number of people and it blows their doors off. I mean, as I've said before, this HT system is a substantial improvement over what I had. Maybe it's time to just accept that and wait to do a separate 2 channel system when I can put it together or look more closely at Art's doing things with his set-up. Anyway, nothing will happen until I listen to several things next weekend. So, it's off to SLC and I'll listen to the Anthem set-up, the NADs, some tube 2 channels, probably Jolida, and whatever else I can find and then I'll have a better idea what I'm going to do. Thanks all, Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2553 Registered: Jan-05 | It's all relative. So long as it blows 'your' doors off is the only thing that matters. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 540 Registered: May-05 | Paul, It is really very good sound and picture in HT. I showed the Helm's Deep battle scene in LOR 2 to a friend recently and he was amazed by the sound, especially the 10-15 seconds earlier that you hear (feel) the Ork army approaching over my old system and his system. Then, he started smiling when the raindrops made their metallic music on the armys' armor. In Phantom of the Opera, the voices are incredible and spine tingling in their goodness, especially in the caverns as the Phantom is taking her down to his cave. But, as engaging, in sync, integrated and involving these scenes can be, it's just mediocre on 2 channel, 2.1 channel and 5.1 channel/SACD music. Is it an improvement from my old system, you bet. Is it music listening nirvana, no. Maybe I just accept that this is the best I can do in a combined system. I don't think that's true and the Anthem PVA7 sure has some interesting reviews. So, I'll go to SLC and listen to some different things, including 2 channel amps and see what stirs the soul. Yes, I will be taking a few CDs for demos. Diana Krall for sure and possibly the Out of Africa CD because of some of the drumming and horns. I'll drag one or two others along, probably the Eagles Greatest Hits for something a little more upbeat with a lot going on and maybe The Planets just for John A and Andy and anyone else who knows how it can engage. (I've now got 3 different versions, don't ask.) LOL |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 548 Registered: May-05 | Art tells me the Outlaw is "bland" for music. Anyone who is using the Outlaw separates disagree with that for HT, more importantly for 2 channel or 2.1 music? I'm not getting any suggestions on any multi-channel amps for music reproduction, do I take it that everyone agrees this isn't the way to improve the sound of music coming from this system? Denon 3803 receiver - 7.1 channel Denon 2200 Universal DVD (4) Ascend CBM 170s - fronts and rears (1) Ascend 340c - center M & K 80 - (2) 12" powered subwoofers I'll be in SLC this weekend to see if I can't find components that will do HT as well or better than what I've got while improving the sound of my music. If separate multi-channel amps and pre/pros won't don't it, I may look at a 2 channel amp, move the Denon 2200 (thereby decreasing the quallity of music in my HT) and I'll buy a couple of speakers, probably Tim's Lings or Rosas, and run a separate stereo system. (It also occurred to me that I might spend $200 and get my Altec Lansing Stonehenge IIs reconed and see if the wife will let me sneak them back in the house in a 2 channel set-up.) We'll see where I be at the of the weekend. |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 135 Registered: Jun-05 | David, I disagree about the Outlaw amps being bland - for music OR HT. Neutral maybe, but not bland. Art is undoubtedly comparing to the warmth of the NAD amps, and it's definitely a different sound. And I have NO complaints about using my Outlaw 755 for 2-channel music, although keep in mind that my DefTechs are going to have a MUCH different sound than your Ascends. Also keep in mind i'm using the HK235 as a pre/pro instead of the Outlaw, but the system has knocked the socks off anyone who has listened to it. Some pics of the setup... sorry the first is blurry: http://home.comcast.net/~zrrbrrt/BHT3.JPG http://home.comcast.net/~zrrbrrt/BHT4.JPG |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1813 Registered: Feb-05 | Art is not comparing the warmth of the NAD amps. I don't own an NAD amp, I own a Hafler Transnova 9505. But that's ok. Outlaw's are a lot like Rotel's, they are very good amps but it's of a matter of taste whether you like them. I would certainly be willing to listen to them again. Not to mention we each have different tastes. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1816 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW Ziggy your HT looks fantastic! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2296 Registered: Mar-05 | Yeah that's one helluva nice setup you've got there, Ziggy! The only way I'll ever bother upgrading my humble 20" curved tube Panny is with a projector, nothing beats a 10 foot wide image... |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 140 Registered: Jun-05 | Thx guys... For perspective, those DefTech 7002s are 46" tall. It's painful to watch normal def TV on that thing, but HD and DVD is spectacular... the pictures don't do the image justice. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 579 Registered: May-05 | Ziggy, WOW, very nice set-up. The one thing I worry about with the Outlaws is that if they're neutral and the Ascends are neutral, it may all sound pretty blah when put together. Or, maybe it presents everything perfectly and I'm ecstatic. I guess that's the other option. We'll see where it all works itself out after the Altec Lansings are reconed and I've listened to some 2 channel stereo, tube amps. That's where I'm heading for now, I think. Thanks all. |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 152 Registered: Jun-05 | Thanks David... between the Outlaw and Ascend forums I'm sure there's someone running that combo that can comment on the overall sound. I do have to say for the 2-channel option I am VERY curious about the Onix SP3/XCD-88/Ref1 combo. I'd like to pick that up for my study/office, but the wife will have NONE of that after the HT purchases for the basement. Maybe next year. |