Hawk - I'm buying the NAD 753 tomorrow........
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New member Username: Bobby29Post Number: 4 Registered: Apr-04 | any issues with audio dropouts at the beginning of a movie or track? I will be using an Audioquest toslink cable. I have heard about this problem with the 7x2's. Thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 31 Registered: Dec-03 | Rob, the NADs like the Marantzs sometimes do have a problem at the beginning of a cd when there is about a second delay in the unit recognizing the digital input. I have heard that this does not happen if the cd is set up through analogue connections but haven't been able to try it. It is not a problem on movies in that there is so much crap at the beginning of a dvd that there is plenty of time for the unit to recognize the digital signal. Also, the delay on cds is only with the first track. It also doesn't happen on all cds. |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 97 Registered: Feb-04 | Jonathon, Do you own a NAD receiver and have you heard the audio dropouts you're decribing? I didn't realize audio dropouts were an issue with NAD or Marantz receivers. I've never experienced the dropouts you describe on my 743. I have heard it affects H/K receivers. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 32 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents: I own both NAD and Marantz receivers. They both, on some CDs on the first track, have about a half second dropout. I doesn't bother me that much other than if I was recording something that would be a big problem. It is the receiver figuring out the digital input. I use a DVD player for CDs as well so it might be that. Unfortunately, my DVD player is a cheapie and doesn't have enough outputs to also output analog or I would do that and name it a CD player when I played CDs. Again, it only happens on the first track. Movies are not a problem. This has been the subject of several threads before and I think other receivers also have this problem. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 34 Registered: Dec-03 | Just so happens there is a similar thread on another forum I peruse: www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170238 |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 35 Registered: Dec-03 | And . . . www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=6f87d9f5eaf55738f37b1e20f60218cd&thread id=329624&highlight=dropout |
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New member Username: Bobby29Post Number: 5 Registered: Apr-04 | Jonathan, I also use my DVD player as a CD player. It is a 5 disc changer. If I set the changer to shuffle (which I often do), will I get a dropout in the beginning of every song -since it will prob be a different disk? If that is the case, I want nothing to do with these receivers. I use the digital output to get the best possible sound. I seems crazy that I have to sacrifice sound for no dropouts. I have also been reading about this issue on the other site. Seems certain models of Marantz do it and others don't. One last question. If I keep the receiver in 2 channel mode, will it still look for the digital signal every time? |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 37 Registered: Dec-03 | Rob, the best I can figure out is that as long as you use a digital link there may be a problem with this. As I read the other links, I saw many of the same issues: some blame the cd player, some blame the Cirrus, some say it doesn't happen except for certain CDs, or it happens only if there is a pause. The other question is whether you can use (and want to use) an analog link from the DVD player to the receiver and assign that link as the CD player. So if you are playing movies, you use the DVD input and if you are playing music, you use the CD input even though they come from the same machine. As discussed at length in the links, this is a stupid glitch. It doesn't really affect my use but I agree that others should be rightly angry at the glitch. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 575 Registered: Dec-03 | This question of the delay in playing from digital sources keeps coming up. It has nothing to do with the NAD T753, nor Hawk, nor NAD, nor any manufacturer, nor whether you are in two-channel mode. So it is off-topic before I start. But I am going to try to nail it, once and for all. To quote Jonathan: "this is a stupid glitch. It doesn't really affect my use but I agree that others should be rightly angry at the glitch". What is there to be angry about? If you don't like it, try to think of a way of solving the problem. With respect, the "glitch" is with you. Actually, with us. The delay is not specific to any brand. It is the result of digital processors that have to detect, and then switch, between different possible formats and coding methods in order to play what we want them to, from the disc. That takes time. If they guess and get it wrong, we complain. If they try and figure out what we want, we complain. If they ask us what we want, we complain that they can't do it on "Auto" which is to say, read our minds. The whole phenomenon is just a consequence of the fact that we want the discs to do different things. And then, there are actually a bunch of different people with different ideas about what we are supposed to see and hear (I'll come back to this). Is the machine supposed to understand the human chain of command, or take a ballot? When there was just CD, there were no decisions to be made, and there was no delay. Today, if you watch a movie in, say, Dolby Digial, then put in a regular CD, all the player knows is there is another 12 cm disc in there. It has to ask a few questions, like "Is this disc exactly the same as the last one?" "If 'yes', I will assume my owner wishes for the same format as last time, but must be ready to change if he tells me". And "Do I have a stored bookmark for this disc?" If "yes", "Where is the point on the disc corresponding to the bookmark?" "If 'no, can't remember seeing this disc before', then let me see, what is the best format available on this disc? DVD-A? SACD? DTS? CD? Dolby Digital (if so, which?)? MP3?". That list goes on and on if you consider video formats, too, right down to Kodak picture format and JPEG. Then, the thing has to ask "Does this guy actually want the best format, anyway?". "Have I got a set-up instruction always to use --- (e.g. 48 kHz) even if I can get --- (e.g. 92 kHz) off this disc? When the player has finally taken a shot at what it hopes you want, it starts sending data to the receiver. The receiver then pretty well has to start doing that all over again, at least for audio. All it knows, to start off, is that it is suddenly getting a stream of 1s and 0s. Which format is it encoded in? PCM? Is it AC-3? When the signal is decoded, which language is the format speaking in? If it is PCM, is it a CD? A DVD in DTS?....? If the delay bothers you, one thing to do is stick with one format for multiple playings. It's not the final solution, but it helps. The other thing to do is stick with analogue input for CD. That stops the receiver, at least, having to say "just a few questions before we start...." Modern receivers do lots of wonderful things, but it is not reasonable to expect them to read your mind! Then again, good CD recordings mostly have at least several seconds of lead-in time. So complain to the disc manufacturer that he thought the player should be made just to play his one precious CD. Complain even louder that he thinks you can't tell the difference between silence and the ambience of space in which the performance was recorded. I predict this "play-delay" question will come round again when there are multiple digital video formats, too. If you don't mind me getting my oar in, I need vent my anger at the exact opposite glitch. My complaint is that DVDs don't have enough lead-in time. They play straight away. I don't want that. I want a menu. And one I can understand. Preferably without looped music. This is to people mastering DVDs. Why do you presume I listen to only one format, and insist on giving me programme material in a format I don't want before I can call up the menu to change it? I do not want to see/hear the first few seconds twice. You presume too much. And, while you don't want me to be able to begin by deciding for myself which sound format to use (and you yourself have burned the alternatives onto the disc), why do you insist on starting by holding me to ransom with a load of national flags, each of which you think I am stupid/intolerant enough to associate with only one human language, one of which flags I am obliged to choose in order to display stuff I absolutely do not want read, or even know about, anyway? I came here for recreation, not to have to show my passport, and most definitely not to be lectured to by lawyers! And, while we're on the subject, don't you know that there a 6,500 human languages, and that the English word "Spanish" does not mean "Castillian"?. Out of fairness, should you not provide a list of all available languages in each available language? And, when I've twigged that the disc won't play unless I've chosen to display legal warnings, in say, Serbo-Croat (I hope I am safe, I was told recently there is no such thing), and made my decision (I always pick the one I understand least - I prefer alphabets I don't even recognise) then why, in God's name, do you presume I want subtitles in the same language, or any at all? Yes, I know how to switch them off, but I have to get the movie playing before I can do that, and can't be listening/watching while fiddling with remote buttons. Why can't I be allowed to do that during the otherwise wasted time in which there is what seems like a ten-minute warning, in Serbo-Croat, about the dire consequences of showing the movie on oil-rigs? Now, the NAD T753. Rob, you're getting a great receiver today. I hope you like it, and please post back with your impressions. If you can't take the "audio drop-out", there are a few things to do to keep it short, but it is there, and the real glitch is not with the technology, it is with people. BTW, Rob, sorry to take over your thread with my rant. When you get your receiver, you will see a number of inputs. All can be analogue, some can be digital, too. "CD" input is analogue, two-channel only, and may be the one you want. As I said at the beginning, the delay is nothing to do with the number of channels, or which input you use. It is digital technology at work. That's just how it is. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 100 Registered: Dec-03 | JohnA., Seems I recall an old adage. Don't cut off your head to cure your headache. Cheers my friend! |
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Bronze Member Username: SemPost Number: 44 Registered: Mar-04 | John A. feel beeter now? LOL. You make a lot of good points here, but no matter what someone will not be happy. I've noticed delays across different disc formats. I deal with it, its not a big thing, I just back it up and start again. perfect? No, but hardly worth me getting upset about. What comes next, excellent music and movie effects, more than makes up for a momentary delay. |
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New member Username: Bobby29Post Number: 6 Registered: Apr-04 | Sem - Good points. But as I stated earlier, using a multi disc DVD/CD changer on shuffle will drive me crazy if the first 1/2 second is cutoff on EVERY music track. So this IS a major issue, worth getting concerned about. John A- I smell what your cookin'. However, my current Sony (circa 2000) and my neighbors brand new Yamaha 740 do NOT have dropouts with a digital connection. So how can you say it's not a brand issue?? My guess it's with the Cirrus processors? Anyway, I can't make it down to DC today to purchase the NAD. Prob go next weekend. I really love this receiver, so I will be using some high quality analog cables for my music listening. Oh, and I will also be buying the JMlabs Chorus floorstanders + center. Can't wait!!!! I thank you all for your help. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 131 Registered: Feb-04 | "if the first 1/2 second is cutoff on EVERY music track" Rob, I can understand there may be a slight drop out on the first CD track, especially if the changer alternates between DVD and cd, but not the subsequent tracks on the same cd. This sounds more like a problem with the DVD/CD changer to me. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 579 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, Thanks for the old adage. Can't see how I'm doing that, though. Writing too much - I plead guilty to that. Sem, Yes, quite a bit better. Thanks! People do rant here from time to time. I think that one was my personal record. Rob, Thanks. too. Well if a Sony and a Yamaha 740 do not have dropouts, how do they know what to do? Can someone explain? My gripe is autoplay, I guess. I do not feel good about that post. I would stick with all the bits, but not the length. Thanks for your patience, guys. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 103 Registered: Dec-03 | JohnA., Didn't mean you my friend. Sounded like they were going to dismiss nice receivers, that were not at fault. Enjoyed the post...as always. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekboyNewport, RI United States Post Number: 246 Registered: Dec-03 | John A: I know we're off topic but you wrote... My complaint is that DVDs don't have enough lead-in time. They play straight away. I don't want that. I want a menu. And one I can understand. Preferably without looped music. I love Laser Discs -- and maintain a stash of them still but don't play them. They were devoid of cheap "advertising" and disclaimers. In fact, you should just skip the chapter and avoid them. They got right to the point, the movie.  Oh well... nice rant John A. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 38 Registered: Dec-03 | Boy, I leave this forum for 24 hours and look what happens. John A, I get what you are saying but despite the decisions the processor has to make, we are talking about electronics which are supposed to make decisions in infinitesimal time and, apparently in other brands, are able to do it. What I meant about others having the right to be angry is when you find a great receiver which has a property that you can't get around. Perhaps like finding a fantastic mate who has one physical defect that you can't stop staring at or thinking about. It ruins everything. Now back off topic: I had laser discs, I have mini-disks (so much better for recording music than cds) and I had beta tapes. I am on the cutting edge of obsolesence. I will go to my death screaming about how the best technology ultimately loses. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 580 Registered: Dec-03 | I am not into making things compulsory, but would like see at least one minute of lead-in audio ambience and video wallpaper on every CD/DVD, so we have time to figure out which buttons to press to set up the system the way we want. Also adjust our ears, eyes, and brains. If necessary. Loved "the cutting edge of obsolescence", Jonathan. But receivers can't make decisions that are conditional on our input, without giving us time to make the input, and proceeding only if we do nothing. The receiver is in a "Catch 22". Maybe the problem is that my "drop-out" is longer than the receiver's. Thanks, all. All read and understood. Wonder if Rob has got his new receiver. |
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Bronze Member Username: Gatt767Malta Post Number: 22 Registered: Feb-04 | This is what NAD had to say regarding the issue. NADelectronics.com web-site. The NAD T762 mutes the digital input for just a bit less than 1 second after it detects a digital data stream. This allows time for the loading of one of the many surround sound decoding programs included as part of the T762. If this mute delay was reduced or removed, the raw undecoded data would be heard through the speakers while the program was loading. This undecoded data has the potential to damage your speakers at the worst, and at the least would be very unpleasant to listen to. This theoretically shouldn't be a problem, as the "Red Book" standard for CD data as specified in the Philips CD license, requires a 3 second silence after the data stream begins, but before the music signal starts. Unfortunately, many CDs do not adhere to the specified standard. We have only seen this muting as a problem on the first track of a CD, or sometimes when skipping tracks. There should be no delay once the disc starts playing. We recommend using the analog CD input (this can come from your DVD player - connect the digital output to the DVD input and the analog output to the CD input) to listen to CDs, as this avoid the problem altogether. NAD DVD players are specifically designed for this, with high quality DACs and output amplifiers. In the stereo mode, the T762 does not re-digitize the analog input. This is what is referred to as a "bypass" input, bypassing all digital processing unless a surround mode is selected. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 584 Registered: Dec-03 | Great, Robert. Thanks. That's what I was trying to say. Only considerably simpler! But the problem remains: if Rob (April 04) is correct, and Sony and Yamaha players don't do that, then how do they know which formats the disc has available, and, especially, how do they know which one you want? Telepathy? I am with that comment from NAD, and would place responsibility for this "glitch" with recording companies. There have been some unbelievably badly thought-out CD masterings right from the beginning. Some region 2 DVDs I have are complete choas for the first five minutes, and every attempt to escape produces the "no entry" sign. In US people are probably mostly spared the multiple language choices, and usually only have to put up with a white-on-blue warning from the FBI, as far as I can see. |
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Bronze Member Username: Gatt767Malta Post Number: 24 Registered: Feb-04 | Within my Setup (hub T762), I have a NAD C540 connected to the analogue in on the receiver (which is a great machine for Stereo listening) and a T531 DVD player for movie watching. The later will be upgraded with a T533, but this model hasn't arrived yet here in Malta. The Sound produced by this setup is sublime. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 586 Registered: Dec-03 | BTW in support of the unavoidability of a digital play delay. Connect any source that has both digital and analogue out to your recevier/amp, using both connections to one input channel. Switch on the receiver, but with a different input selected. Switch on the source and let it get through all its own delays. Now select the input channel corresponding to the source. What do you hear? Answer: analogue input; then silence; then digital input. The receiver gives you its analogue input straight away. But it also looks to see if there is a digital input. It finds there is one. It assumes that is what you want. It switches off amplification while it interrogates the digital signal to see what it is. It figures it out, and gives you the digital input. It takes less than a second. That's awesomely fast. I don't see any other way of doing it. Can anyone suggest one? I have a Nokia digital satellite receiver with both digital co-ax and analogue out. It is perfect for the above experiment. When I switch channels on the satellite, the same delay is there, for the same reason. If, however, you leave all its pre-sets intact and just and power up, it takes about 30 seconds to figure out what signal is coming in and what all its options are, and return to delivering the last channel you were listening to/viewing. This complaint about NAD receivers needing to pause is a bit like saying "I have an x thermionic valve amplifier and it takes a minute or two before I get the sound at full volume. My friend has a y transistor amp and it plays straight away. I really think x should get its act together and sort out this glitch". Robert, I have just "upgraded" my DVD/CD player from T532 to T533. I got one of the first batch to my local dealer, on the day of delivery. I am sure your current setup sounds great, but if you say "sublime", there won't be any words left for DVD-Audio on the NAD T533. No exaggeration. I intend to write about the T533 and DVD-Audio later today. |
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Bronze Member Username: Gatt767Malta Post Number: 29 Registered: Feb-04 | Yes it would be good to have a review of the T533, as I intend to use this DVD for both audio and as a good video source for PAL/NTSC Prog scan! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 597 Registered: Dec-03 | Robert, Here is my review of the T533. It starts a new thread, under "Receivers": NAD T533 DVD/CD player user's review, and DVD-Audio |
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Unregistered guest | There are two ways around this digital input muting issue I can think of: 1). The digital processor could use a buffered raw (unprocessed) input stream which is large enough (that is, long enough) to allow the appropriate decoding algorithm to be loaded. This adds to the expense of the unit. Denon's pro audio CD players use this technique (at least they did when I was in the pro audio biz). 2). The digital processor could be preconfigured for a particular decoding algorithm so that there is no need for sensing it. There could even be an "auto-learn" that would remember the decoding algorithm used the last time the input saw a digital stream. Though I've never been a design engineer, this problem seems completely avoidable. If the manufacturers of pro equipment used by radio/TV/other media allowed glitches like this, they would be run out of town. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 670 Registered: Dec-03 | musicthenradio_etc Thanks. I can see 1) might work. It will still take finite time. I wonder how long? I wonder exactly how this differs from the system in place already? "The digital processor could use a buffered raw (unprocessed) input stream" - are you suggesting the problem with the current arrangement is that the input stream is unbuffered, or that it is processed? But I don't see how 2) avoids the delay and need for muting, as I understand your description. Surely the processor is preconfigured already with a range of decoding algorithms, and the need to sense the input will always remain, in order for the processor to select the one appropriate to the method of encoding the particular data stream it receives? You suggestions are meant to apply to the processor in the receiver, I think. There remains the unavoidable delay in the player. Where the player has to scan the disc in order to "see" how many, and which, formats are available, in order to "choose" , then this is still going to take time. As I said, my Nokia digital tuner seems to take some time, even just to switch channels. So I don't think other media are exempt. For my money, the problem is not a problem, anyway, though of course different people have different prioities. "This adds to the expense of the unit. " is the key. I should always prefer the money I spend goes on sound quality, instead. The whole issue is reminiscent of the question of start-up times on turntables. For some reason, people wanted to shave seconds off the time it took to reach specified speed of rotation. The solution was low-mass platters and direct-drive motors, sonically both retrograde steps. Many totally non-musical issues seem to be given too high a priority even with digital media, in my opinion. Security watermarking is a clear case. It is built in, and, I suspect, one of the primary reasons for DSD, in SACD. In DVD-Audio, with PCM, there is no need for it, but record companies like Warner insist on doing it anyway, to the detriment of sound quality. |
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New member Username: KendridPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-04 | I will say that in my setup, cheap receivers from Sony, Pioneer and Yamaha have not had drop out issues at all. On the other hand, both the Rotel 1055 and NAD T762 did. From what I have read HK receivers also have a very bad dropout issue. It is very odd that the cheap mass market receivers seem to have the problem fixed. I have no idea why, but that is what I have seen in my system. Personally I see it as a non-issue, or at least an issue I will put up with to have the sound of NAD. |
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