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Silver Member Username: CoryCanada Post Number: 186 Registered: Jan-05 | I have recently got my ht back up and running and having trouble setting the delay for the surrounds my front speakers are 12 feet away from the sweet spot and the surrounds are 5 feet. im wondering how many feet of delay do i add? because i can not add delay to the surrounds without adding to the fronts(i dont think i need any more delay for the fronts) Thanks for your help in advance |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5750 Registered: May-04 | Why in the world would you "delay" the front channels? Everything else should be relative to the fronts and you delay the center and surrounds according to their position. Also you do not delay in feet. The distance setting for the rears will establish the amount of delay automatically. |
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Silver Member Username: CoryCanada Post Number: 187 Registered: Jan-05 | i know you dont want to but you can't add delay to the surrounds with out adding to the fronts |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5752 Registered: May-04 | What brand receiver? |
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Silver Member Username: CoryCanada Post Number: 188 Registered: Jan-05 | I dont have one, I got a pioneer dv 578 dvd player wich decodes dd,dts then have it hooked up to a preamp then to the amps. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5753 Registered: May-04 | Sorry, since I don't know that Pioneer, I really can't help with specifics. I would tell you the small amount of delay offered by a 5 or even 12 foot offset is minimal and probably won't change what you actually hear when set to default. You might try posting this in the DVD-A/SACD area. There are some people over there with this same player. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 401 Registered: Jul-05 | I'm sure Paul Bayless would wholeheartedly disagree with that. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5754 Registered: May-04 | Only if all the speakers have a 1st order Xo. Otherwise you've started out without the ability to hear what the phase shift is doing. Never mind the amount of out of phase signal being bounced around the room several times in a HT system. Without that 6dB rolloff, whatja gonna do? You're lost. Set the delays anywhere you want, it won't matter. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3766 Registered: Dec-03 | Cory, With the speakers at those distances, you would delay the surrounds by seven (7) milliseconds relative to the front speakers. The calculation is simply one ms for each foot of difference, because that is approximately the speed of sound. If you cannot delay the surrounds you have a problem. But please check. I cannot see how anyone would design a player so that the surrounds had to be further away from the listener than the main speakers. Most people have them closer. |
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Hi - Rez Unregistered guest | I believe all speakers need to have the delays set relative to the listening positon. In the set up menu in any components I have had all speaker distances are ajustable seperately: fronts, center, main and even the sub. The only setup I have had where the main speaker distance is not relative, is when using a 3 channel processor with a 2 channel amp - then the rears and center were set in milisecs. With all other equipment (receivers and DVD players} the speaker delays are worked out when setting all speaker distances from the listening position in either 'feet' or 'metres'. With SACD there is no delay setting, unless with some newer players the signal is downgraded to mlp (same as DVD-A) which takes away the benefits of dsd resolution. So the preferable set-up with the hi-res surround music formats is having (and setting up) all speakers equi-distant from your listening position - or as close as possible. I disagree with Mr Vigne, the delays do make a difference - especially with surround music. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5763 Registered: May-04 | HR - Exactly what difference do you hear when the delays are off by a few milliseconds? I have seen front channels with the ability to adjust for an offset distance between the left and right channels relative to a centered listening position. However, your front channels should be the basis for all other channels. You should be setting delays relative to the plane of the front speakers and "virtually" placing yourself in the center of the soundfield between the front, center and rear speakers. (Assuming SACD/DVD-A reproduction. DTS and DD call for a different speaker set up.) As an example, the center speaker is sometimes placed slightly behind the plane of the front speakers. Adjusting this delay can heighten articulation of a speaking voice when the front and center speakers share the responsibility for the same signal. But, the delays can be relative to only one small spot in the room and cannot adjust for all listening positions within the room. Nor can they typically adjust for the problems that would occur if one surround speaker is placed five feet away and the other has to be placed seven feet away. (Some systems can, most cannot.) I have always found it difficult to accept the amount of delay available between five feet and seven feet can make any significant alteration in perception when the room is filled with reverberant information all of which arrives at the listening position with different amounts of delay and slightly out of phase with the main signal. Particularly when the rear channel information is ambient signal, the small deviation in millisecond delays cannot be of much consequence. The errors in the speaker's Xo and construction could easily be more significant than that small amount of delay. The Haas effect (http://www.rane.com/par-h.html0 implies "humans localize a sound source based upon the first arriving sound, if the subsequent arrivals are within 25-35 milliseconds. If the later arrivals are longer than this, then two distinct sounds are heard. The Haas Effect is true even when the second arrival is louder than the first (even by as much as 10 dB.). In essence we do not "hear" the delayed sound." This is applicable when using headphones (not a reverberant room) with pops and ticks as the signals which can be easily distorted when a portion of the sound is "misplaced". When a constantly fluctuating signal such as music, or even speech, is used the perception of differences can shift up to the higher limits of the precedent effect. In general, the effect you will hear when the delays are longer than 40 ms is a more ambient sense of space. Articulation can suffer slightly, but that is seldom a problem between front and rear channels in either a music or HT system. Add to this the reverberant field of various loudspeaker types (bipoles/dipoles) and there doesn't appear to be much different that should be noticeable between 0 delay and 7 ms. In addition, since most of the "effects" involved in HT reproduction (and to some extent multichannel music) will be created in the studio, we are beginning with a signal that has been altered by the engineer's desire for a more spacious reverberant field. To get that effect the engineer will adjust the delay of the rear channels in the recording process to add the space and presence of the signal. I am willing to grant in certain instances the delay accomplished by processor adjustment might be noticeable. However, I would suggest that proper set up using the very best sources would prove more useful than trying to adjust for a small difference of a few feet with the typical HT set up. I'd be interested to know how many people do hear a perceptible difference when the speaker delays are changed a by a few milliseconds. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 676 Registered: Oct-04 | The delay is also useful for TVs that upconvert to high definition. You commonly will get a 3ms lip sync delay which can be quite annoying. Setting your listening distance an extra 10 feet or so on all channels is a good quick fix for this. I noticed it on my new display when using the component connection. Through HDMI there is no delay. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5765 Registered: May-04 | What channels do you apply the delay to? All? There should be no voice coming from the rears unless put there by the engineer. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 677 Registered: Oct-04 | Since the picture is 3ms behind the audio, it makes sense to me to delay the entire audio track. Delaying the centre 3ms fixes the lip sync problem, but now it's behind the rest of the channels. |
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Hi - Rez Unregistered guest | "HR - Exactly what difference do you hear when the delays are off by a few milliseconds?" With the gear I have at present all speaker delays are computed by the processors in the receiver and universal dvd player when speaker distances (in feet or metres) in relation to the listening position are set. Hence I do not know the milisecond delays and I'm too lazy to do the maths. Let me add that there are many variations (and opinions) for speaker surround setups. Personally, I use the set-up in the universal player for DVD-A and SACD and the set-up in the receiver for HT surround (DD & DTS) as I use different levels for HT. My speaker locations are not ideal for SACD and DSVD-A but are as close to recommended as possible (the SACD configuration should, by most accounts be the same for DVD-A). The distances (delays) are set for DVD-A and the rear speakers are close to a metre and a half nearer to my listening positon than the fronts, center and sub which are all set at 3.4 mts for my L.P. so in effect they form an arc forward of my L.P. Ideally the rears should be set at the same distance and at 110 degree from my L.P. but the room dictates that they remain at 2.1 mts away and at about 150 degrees. And this seems to work very well. On many occassions when I have been listening to DVD-A's and SACD's (in surround of course) I have put the delay situation to the test. As SACD does not have delay settings and recommend placing speaker at uniform distances, I have shifted my L.P (body) forward and back repeatedly from my normal L.P. and do notice a beneficial difference albeit not an earth-shattering one. Also, when I have had the distances not set correctly, the sound has suffered accordingly. Hence my configurations and delays seem to work extremely well, though maybe not perfect by the book. If delays weren't worth the trouble then perhaps nor would time aligned speaker designs. If delays did not have any real effect over a few metres difference in speaker distances relative to the L.P. then time aligned drivers in a speaker box shouldn't be worth considering when the difference in the emission of sound from the drivers/tweeters is only within a few inches. Keep in mind that I believe the delays are far more important for surround music - even DD & DTS surround music. Though I do like the helicopters flying overhead to coincide with their thumping roar. Jets are something else when passing over at mach2 as it's a bit difficult to determine how far their sound should lag behind the image. Argue my opinion if you wish but I do know that optimum configurations provide benefits to what I hear. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5776 Registered: May-04 | I won't argue with what you say you hear. How can I? The only thing I would say is; if your argument for minute adjustments in delays is reasoned out through time aligned speakers being "correct", I would suggest there are plenty of people who do not consider a time aligned speaker to be "the key" to good sound in a real world room with multiple reflections and a wide range of listening distances. Secondly, if your speakers are not time aligned, wouldn't that imply delays are then useless? Thanks for the information though. |
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Hi-Rez Unregistered guest | "If delays weren't worth the trouble then perhaps nor would time aligned speaker designs" Now I did say 'perhaps' as I really can't comment on time aligned speakers. As far as the delays go - when changing positions while playing an SACD as I stated previously, I'll admit my wife tried this also and couldn't really determine any difference (but then I often wonder if she really listens anyway LOL!). To me, and only slightly, the music became more 'balanced' for lack of a better word. If setting the delays is a tweak, then I would have to state it is one of the most beneficial ones. But, I do agree that delay differences below a few (milseconds) feet in distance are not really perceptable. Over that is when all bets are off. |