Edster's Panny xr55 --- what 228 bucks'll getcha...
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page| Thread | Last Poster | Posts | Last Post | |
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| Archive through September 15, 2005 | Jan Vigne | 100 | ||
| Archive through September 12, 2005 | Anoni | 100 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1941 Registered: Mar-05 | ok Jan, that's a fair suggestion, I'll give the NAD 2-3 days. > Dig deep into your collection to find pieces that you didn't like because of their hifi failings. Actually I had a glimpse of that with the Van Morrison CD which was a pretty lackluster recording but sounded better on the Panny. But I'll try your advice nonetheless. I agree with what you're saying about reviewers' habitual overstatement, though I'd bet that the reviews that you are referring to were all about analog equipment. Whether you like or dislike the final sound, you have to admit that this all-digital technology is a very different animal. BTW Jan, if you were willing to spend $15 to try Tim's Lings, why not $15 to audition the Panny yourself? Your opinion would almost certainly carry more weight than mine, given your decades of audio experience. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | given your decades of audio experience was that meant as a compliment or are you saying that Jan is indeed an informed Dinosaur?  |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5726 Registered: May-04 | I'm not in a situation where I can sit and listen to the receiver right now. If things change, I'll consider it. Now, back to a point I keep making on this forum. Of course "all digital" (which we know it's not; right? The signal is kept in the digital domain until the gain stages which are digitally manipulated.) is a very different animal. So was solid state when it first arrived. It was given reviews similar to what you are reporting. FET's were new at one time. Guess what the reviewers said about them. I have nothing against new technology whether I choose to jump on the bandwagon or not. Technology marches forward with or without me. Someone has to be the early adopter of all new technology. It's good that you want to try something new. My point? While technology marches forward, the sound of music stays the same. Remember when I said in the Ling write up if you compare the Ling to another speaker (particularly in your A/B tests) you might easily find the Ling to be less than revealing. It will appear somewhat dark and muddy compared to the detail and clarity you first hear from the other speaker. It is when you take the Ling on its own terms that you hear what makes it so different in its presentation of music. In that instance, where the Ling is left to fend for itself with just the music to challenge it, the Ling rises above the competition's all too familiar hifi sounds. Separate the Panasonic from your "aha's". I don't know you well enough to judge; but here's my impression of how you listen. Like many people, you are searching for the tiny details and the moments where components satisfy those things you read about. I have sold to lots of people in a very similar situation. They are captivated by the equipment and tend to look for those moments where they can declare one piece better than another at doing hifi things. Most all of us go through do that to some extent. We are all still learning to listen no matter how much experience we have. We tend to focus on this or that and leave the music behind somewhat. Some people never get beyond that point and the equipment becomes their passion. That's fine; I made a living off those people. Some people finally say enough is enough and they settle back to the music as their constant. Neither one is right nor wrong. Just different. You need to begin deciding which you want to be. Forget the A/B tests if you are going to be interested in the music. Forget the "aha's" that aren't generated by the performance of the artist. Sit and listen for an entire night without once judging what the system is doing. (That's one thing about mono recordings. So much of what we expect the system to do is minimized and the music is left out front.) Not listening to the system is very difficult to do for most of us. I have a terrible problem with it because for twenty five years I was the one who was supposed to listen to the system. This is where the person who doesn't give a flip about the system is useful. They'll tell you, "it sounds more clear", and you'll think, "what? you can't hear the soundstage improvements?" They can't. But listen to their words. They are not encumbered by hifi speak. You may find you disagree, but that is just you listening with your bias compared to their bias. If you can spend that entire evening (listening to one piece of equipment and without A/B swapping) without judging the hifi while using each amplifier, then, I think, you're in a much better position to decide which piece of equipment will satisfy you for the longer time. I don't think anyone here is trying to talk you out of the Panasonic. That's not our job. Some people don't care for tubes. I ignore them. Make up your own mind, but make up your mind based on the music first. If the music is done well - and the music does not change with technology - then you can sit back and listen to your system every now and then. Don't take this as a criticism of how you listen. Just advice from what I've experienced. |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 312 Registered: Apr-05 | So basically you are recommending a holistic approach to listening rather than byte for byte comparison? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1945 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, but you're not dismissing AB testing completely are you? If I read you correctly you are saying simply lengthen the duration of listening to A before comparing to B. So instead of 2 minutes on A and then immediately 2 minutes on B, you are suggesting 2 days with A and then switch back to B, right? That's fair, since I more or less did that when I had the Panny hooked up for about 3 days after unpacking it. As for trying to listen without analyzing what the system is doing...this is difficult indeed because the music is coming out of the system, it would be like separating Norah Jone's voice from Norah Jones. What you are suggesting seems to be a Zen-like, non-analytical approach to listening. I'll give it a try, though. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 987 Registered: Jun-05 | David i probably would check the Panny out but at this time im just not in the market for a A/V receiver maybe never for me H/T is something im just not interested in,Ive been through it as they went on and grew to 7 channels,H/T started sounding worse and worse in 2 channel,and I left it alone I still kept up on it but no longer purchased any other A/V gear.We only sell seperates so if someone buys H/T the only thing we have is Nad and Integra preamp/processor,as ive stated several times I still have My old Onkyo and I have no plans to change that.I must admit the Panny is quite interresting,personally I think digital amps are great for bass like in subs,but for home use and especially 50 htz on up I dont know I have my doubts,looking at their graphs on how they fluctuate thru the frequencey curve really troubles me about their design.Eddie im glad you are happy with it I may do just to experiament with it,and see what i can find out or the idea I have is we have been thinks of getting the Channel Island Digital Mono blocks in tho see if we are gonna carry them,so I think ill do that so I can get to bottom of this digital frenzy. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5728 Registered: May-04 | You're going to get me back into a discussion I am not interesting in if I answer the A/B question. Let's put it this way; A/B testing can show you some things about a system's or a component's performance. It will not show you everything you probably need to know to make a decision. There are too many variables in most simple A/B set ups. If you find it difficult to separate your system playing Jones' voice from Jones' voice, don't listen to Jones. In the context of what I was discussing above; we tend to pick pieces of music which sound good on our systems. In a way, our systems have an influence on what we listen to in music. No one wants to listen to a system they have paid good money to own when that system sounds less than good. So, if Jones sounds good on your system, you will probably play Jones when you want to hear your system sound good. This is not to discount the benefits of "reference" recordings, they are essential in judging some aspects of system performance. But as with Frank's objection to sounds used as tests, my feeling is we get too comfortable with our choices of test material. We know when to listen and what to listen for. In this case, there is no Zen - only a fundamentalist approach to listening. We develop an "originalist's" view of what is. Is the drum this way? Is the vocal the way I want it? That's when you are listening to the system (and most often comparing hifi to hifi)and you are not listening to the music. I say it and I know it makes it sound as if I've developed some special way to listen; but I make an effort to not listen to the system first. I have a few recordings that tell me what I want to know about the system in a short amount of time, but they are not my main focus. If I walk into a store without those discs in hand, I should still be able to make a judgement of a system's worth. If I'm interested in judging, as with the Lings, I pull out the old nuggets for music and use the "reference" recordings for specific tasks. It sounds trite, but I listen for whether the system gets to the music. The idea of "hearing a recording for the first time" is in the music and not in the system. Take those "hmmmmm" moments as part of the whole of what a system can do. We sit at attention while judging. We sit back and listen when we are at a live performance. Why should one be different than the other? Which is more important to you? We do usually listen in different fashions at a concert and at a hifi shop. That's what I asked above. Which is more important to you? I only know my clients who bought a system and took it home to listen to their music were in the store less often than those who always wanted to hear what the newest amplifier could do. I cannot tell anyone how to listen. We all do it somewhat differently than another person will. We each have our priorities. For me, the gear that lets me relax and enjoy the music without demanding concentration is better than that which constantly reminds me I bought a good hifi. Since you meditate, use that as your goal. Which system lets you forget what is outside yourself? Then decide if you want to be pulled into the system each time you listen. It goes back to the recommendation of buying what impresses you the least. You were impressed by the Marantz. You were impressed by the NAD. You are now impressed by the Panasonic. Each step may be a correct step for you. Each step may be just another "aha" moment and then you'll move on. Certainly there is still room for many more revelations before you find the system you will stay with for a while. Some people never stay with a system. Only you can decide which you prefer and what is best. BTW - Next time you want to give us an example of opening your mind; try the example of the first time you ate broccoli. That bit about "once you go ... " was not needed. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1946 Registered: Mar-05 | OK Jan, I hear you on the listening technique. As for broccoli? I've always liked broccoli, even as a kid. The "once you go all-digital" analogy was a tad risque but accurate IMO: racial prejudice is a social-historical problem, just as anti-digital prejudice is historical---it tends to arise in people who've devoted a great deal of time and money in building their analog systems. The only digital-skeptic on this thread who's actually heard a digital source is Art, who's been pretty mum so far on the actual details. Tawaun has heard digital and while not 100% sold on it is open to trying it out. If there was an extra zero behind the Panny's pricetag or a more respected name on its faceplate, would it be perceived differently? I would definitely think so. Irrational bias is irrational bias, whether it's ethnicity or audio. In this case I simply don't see how anyone can dismiss digital sound without even listening to it first and doing so with an open mind. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1947 Registered: Mar-05 | oops, correction: Danman has also heard the Panny but only very briefly in a store. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Since CC is just around the corner from the office, I decided to pay a speedy visit to check this Panny out, got to confess, eddie got my attention so, I just had to do it. Anyway, no, CC is not the best place to audition but my first reaction was that I did not like the sound at all! It was driving some Infinity's Beta 40 and the sound was not as clear as edster has described, actually I though it was somewhat harsh. Room? environment? speakers? audition too quick? biased to my gear? whatever it was, it just did not cut it for me.....now I can be in peace in this world knowing that my analogs sound much better to my ears. my 2 cents |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5729 Registered: May-04 | I don't suspect, and I could be wrong, anyone is dismissing the Panasonic strictly due to its technology so much as a committed belief you do tend to get what you pay for. There have been some terrific bargains in audio through the years. Most left little behind to remember them by. This is undoudbtedly true when it comes to Japanese receivers. Though each level of technology has brought better specs (?) and lower prices, that alone has not generally made audio any better. I would take the response to the Panasonic more as a response to someone raving about any $288 receiver. I have yet to find the "free lunch" table in audio. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1948 Registered: Mar-05 | ok anonymous, be at peace... : ) why not take the Panny home and give it a few days though, then get someone to blind test you on it? (this is not an invitation to restart the discussion of blind testing, btw) CC can afford to give you a refund. I was surprised that CC carries it, so I looked at their website and the xr50, xr70, and silver xr55 are all sold out! Only the black xr55 is left, at $250. With tax, almost $40 more than Amazon but no waiting... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2412 Registered: Jan-05 | Well...... I guess this settles it. NAD separates cant perform better than a $200 Panasonic weighing in at 10lbs. HEH |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1949 Registered: Mar-05 | > I have yet to find the "free lunch" table in audio. I can understand the "you get what you pay for" skepticism, Jan. That's perfectly reasonable, since it's true at least half of the time with most things. Recently I tried a $8/bottle Spanish wine that IMO was better than most $35 French wines. So the occasional anomaly is not impossible. On the other hand if I remember correctly, you don't believe in $250/foot cables either, right? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2413 Registered: Jan-05 | If I read you correctly you are saying simply lengthen the duration of listening to A before comparing to B. So instead of 2 minutes on A and then immediately 2 minutes on B, you are suggesting 2 days with A and then switch back to B, right? =================== Using that method makes a lot of sense. for example, I used 20 years of A, and then listened to B to audition speakers. Believe me...it didnt take be very long to realize that all new speakers selling in todays marketplace were petite weaklings..... all because of our modern generation of pathetic WAF girlymen shoppers. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1950 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL, geez Paul you must be feeling pretty lonely today. That's the most pitiful trolling for attention you've done for quite a while... Ever thought of just finding yourself a good hooker? You know, like the one that Jack Nicholson finds at the end of the movie "Carnal Knowledge," whom he pays to tell him what a manly man he is. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5730 Registered: May-04 | " ... you don't believe in $250/foot cables either, right?" On the contrary, I believe in them. They do exist. I swear I've seen them and more! Do I believe they might be better than a $2.50 a foot cable. Most definitely. If everything else in the system is priced accordingly. Can I define better? Nope, you have to decide that yourself. Are $2.50 a foot cables even worth what you can get from $0.25 a foot cables. For the most part, I'd say yes. Do I think spending $250 a foot for cables is decadent no matter how much money you have? You bet. But, I live in Dallas. There are decadent people. I swear I've seen them and more! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1952 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL, you're in fine form today Jan. But don't you use Home Depot extension cord in one of your systems? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2418 Registered: Jan-05 | Whats the matter eddie? Does the shoe fit? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1954 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL Paul, how many times do we have to tell you that we love you and care for you deeply? Will that resolve your dysfunctional personality problems adequately, or would professional help needed? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5731 Registered: May-04 | HD is in the HT. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 520 Registered: Apr-04 | Edster, I see you used me as the ginney (?) pig as a second listener. I did only briefly and was quite amused but found the sound thin like I said. HOWEVER, in an open store it is hard to judge. I may tempt myself to sit down and listen properly. I will admit, Ed's got me curious! BUT (again!) It will take a very big war to drag me out of my present gear as I have not felt any "aha's" yet from anything to make me spend more! I am very happy with what I own. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 504 Registered: May-05 | Gentleman, Edster, I'm happy you've found something you like and that it was pretty dang reasonable. I'm afraid that I'm a traditionalist and probably stick to analog, although I don't think that the Denon is long for this world, unless it's to be used as a pre for a separate amp. (Having said that, I'm in favor any guy named Dave being happy with the woman of his choice, color no issue.) BTW, I just sold one of my Omega watches, not as much as I wanted but for a reasonable price and to a good guy. So, I've got some money to burn and a wife that can't object. NOW, WHAT TO DO? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 989 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie their is deffinately a thing called no free lunch,although some things are different and this is even the case with audio.Speakers for instance are one of the things that can pass for a free lunch,now dont get me wrong 90% of the time when you spend more on speakers they are better even if you cant tell some time,why because better electronics make speakers sound better.Now that brings me to my point and I stress it in Electronics their are no such things as a free lunch,If you pay more for electronics it will be better.No offense Eddie the Panny sounding better than a Nad setup,doesent say a whole lot since they (Nad} are hardly at the pinnacle of audiophile reproduction no offense to all you Nad junkies,now if the Panny if sounded better than a McIntosh,or Conrad Johnson,Lamm,Halcro,Mark Levinston, if it bettered gear like that it would indeed be a revalation.Eddie Im not trying to turn you against the Panny for that kind of money even if it just plays stereo decent thats good,because after all it is a home theater receiver they were never intened for serious 2 channel audio sound,its a old sane that I go by with electronics and you've heard heard it before"You gotta Pay to Play" |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5732 Registered: May-04 | Dak - Why not spend a little of it on your wife? I'll bet she won't object then. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1959 Registered: Mar-05 | David, Tawaun, Jan, Danman... sigh...FIFTEEN lousy bucks, gentlemen, ONE-FIVE! How much trouble can it be to put the darn thing (all 9.4 lbs of it) back in the box, tape it back up, and take it to the nearest UPS store or P.O.? Or pick one up from your local Circuit City and return it within 30 days? Nobody expects you to love it as much as I do, let alone keep it...but really, you owe it to yourself just to give it a fair listen, and then if you still say you absolutely hate it you will finally have something resembling objectivity on your side, not just complacent bias and speculation. Bear in mind that this Panny is only the second wave (the first wave was about a year ago with the xr25) and by the 3rd, 4th or 5th wave these all-digitals will really be kickin'! Think of it as a $15 ticket for a preview into the future of audio. As other companies continue to perfect this technology, gentlemen I'm afraid your analog receivers may well become the 8 track tapes of the 21st century in a decade or two. Tawaun... I have never imagined that my NAD is the pinnacle of hi-fi, in fact I've always thought of it simply as excellent mid-fi. To be honest, I have no intention of ever blowing the kind of bucks those brands that you listed cost. However until I heard this Panny I was willing to shell out up to $1400 to replace my NAD separates if they ever gave out...now I'd just order another Panny in a millisecond. I'm happy in my confidence that this dinky little $230 thing will compare well against any amp or receiver under $2000. Now have I listened to EVERY under $2K amp/receiver? Of course not. But just as you and others have your own unproveable beliefs that are only partially based on experience, this is mine. Your experience is with all the analog equipment you've listened to, mine is with this Panny that I've listened to. If you care to seize the higher ground on this issue though, you'd need to part with that $15 otherwise we're both groping in the dark. It's hard to argue against the "no free lunch" maxim. On the other hand consider that if I had told a computer geek 20 years ago that his $2000 Macintosh running at 20Hz would be replaced by $500 Dells running at 3GHz, he'd probably chuckle too. David: Jan may be on to something with his suggestion of spending it on your wife. You could for example buy her some nice jewelry and still have enough left over for $15 return shipping. ; ) |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Tawaun, With all due respect, I know you don't like NAD and I agree they are not what you call "HiFi" by any means, but.....they are not bad at all, I have a pre-amp running two monoblocks and a pair of Paradigm Studio 100v3's, man the sound is just awesome. I know Eddie is excited with his purchase and I am happy for him but after what I heard today there is just no comparison, not even close; now, to mention McIntosh, Halcro, etc etc is just unfair and pointless. NAD may not sound good to you but believe me a sub $5000 system can and does deliver a pretty good sound. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 991 Registered: Jun-05 | Hold your horses anonymous I still own my Nad gear 320bee,and my 541i,I never said I didnt like Nad.Nad is not Mid fi they are great budget gear ive always been a fan for Nad for the money,and how is it pointless he is saying he thinks the Panny is better than amps up $2000 so its not pointless.Eddie I never said that you thought Nad was the pinacle of audio I know you dont think that,but you must admit its a lot of people on here that do think that Nad is better than they are.I mearly stated that because thats what you had on hand for a comparison,their are other digital amps out on the market that cost more and are built considerably better than the Panny the other amps have done ok but none of them have blown the doors off of anything. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1962 Registered: Mar-05 | > Nad is not Mid fi they are great budget gear whoa, Tawaun we are obviously speaking different languages here. "Mid-fi" is what I'd call any receiver under say $1300 and any separates under $2000. "Budget" is what I'd call a $300-400 Pioneer 1015. I'd be curious to hear more about the other digital amps out there, and also who exactly has decided that they have not "blown the doors off of anything." Jan has shown us the Island Channel monoblocks, but $1600/pair without pre-pro is way out of my price range. Curiously enough, Harman Kardon's all-digital HK2005 has never garnered the kind of massive raves the Panny has on audio forums, and in fact their earlier HK1005 got a fair amount of boos. But again, I'd urge you to sift through that huge "list of digital receivers" thread on the avsforum and maybe engage some of those people who've given up much more expensive gear than me in favor of the Panny. It's true, if the Panny cost $2300 instead of $230 who'd really give it a second thought? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2431 Registered: Jan-05 | I'm happy in my confidence that this dinky little $230 thing will compare well against any amp or receiver under $2000. ======================== LOL |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 993 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie I went over to audioreview yesterday and they have said some good things about the Panny.Budget,Midfi,and Highend are more class than price heres a example for instance,would you spend $2000 on a Nad when you can get a Krell for $2500,Musical Fidelity A5 for $2500,Unison Unico $1899,Classe for $2000,Bryston $2000,Pathos Classic for $2195,Moon I-3 for $1999,Plinius 8200 for $2100,Creek 5350 for $1500,Naim Nait 5 for $1500.those are just a couple examples Eddie you get my drift,some of those prices may be a little off but its close though.The first Digital amp to make a big splash and it may be the best one on the market is the PS Audio HCA-2,heres their website www.psaudio.com |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1963 Registered: Mar-05 | wow, these psaudio people sure love to write...I've never seen such an elaborately written website! They must have a couple of English majors working for them. The HCA-2 is sweet looking thing though of course it requires a pre-pro which would add probably $700-1000 on top of its $1700 pricetage. It's a nice idea though, combining digital with solid state and tube. OK Tawaun, as you might've guessed I'm unfamiliar with most of those names you've listed, but I see that the one closest to a NAD 2-channel separates system is the Creek and the Naim, which you seem to be claiming are still way better than the NAD. So why not order the Panny and take it to a shop that carries these things, and AB the suckers? I know Jan doesn't like to discuss the whole AB blind testing thing but all I'm suggesting is turn your back on the equipment and have somebody switch back and forth between the two and see if you can correctly guess which is which. Use your own CDs if you want. If people can consistently pick out Pepsi and Coke in blind testing, why not in audio too? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2434 Registered: Jan-05 | Eddie, What you're doing is asking people to take a blind taste test when one of the samples is urine. That is one taste test most would rather not take. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1965 Registered: Mar-05 | Ah but you don't know it's urine or Gatorade or Chardonnay, my dearest Paul. THAT'S the catch. Sure you can speculate all you want and PRETEND that you believe your SPECULATIONS are actual FACTS. But you'll never KNOW, end of story. Even someone as simple-minded as you can understand that, Paul. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2435 Registered: Jan-05 | Im sure that receiver will match up well with the audio in your artsy/fartsy Sundance movie collection. I'll bet "Supersize Me" really comes to life behind the power of the Panny. HEH |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1966 Registered: Mar-05 | Believe it or not I haven't seen that one yet, Paul. I don't like predictability whether it's a cheesy action flick or a documentary, I prefer to be surprised. Saw "Collateral" the other night and while it was not a GREAT movie it wasn't *too* bad and the Panny delivered flawlessly. Anyway, I don't have a movie collection, I have Netflix, which is a MEGA-MEGA movie collection...heh! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1670 Registered: Feb-05 | And we all have the library which is a mega book collection...but it ain't mine. As Chris Martens (The Perfect Vision) says of the Yamaha RX-V657 AVR ($550)"Hang on to your hats" "Yamaha's RX-V657 is, by a wide margin, the best sounding affordable AVR I've ever heard, and I think it will leave many card carrying audiophiles shaking their heads in disbelief." September/October 2005 Issue #63 "The Perfect Vision". Gulp!!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 994 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie Ill think about,but blind testing has never been something I liked or thought was very useful,normal a/b is fine enough.I have to go to Indianapolis after the Lings get here and go to Odyssey and pick up my preamp and amp,so its gonna be a big day for me and I have to go to work so I can see those new JM Labs so I deffinetly have to check them out.Ill check into the Panny a little deeper,I may buy one from BestBuy and listen to it and take it back before 30 days is up I'll think about it. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2439 Registered: Jan-05 | Art, I agree.... The music snobs will never beleive it. HEH |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5738 Registered: May-04 | Ed - If I was in the position to have time and space for listening, I'd check the Panasonic out. I just don't right now. You are correct that if the Panasonic cost $2000 you wouldn't be hearing as much in the way of dismissing this product. Same with the name. If it said Krell on the front panel, people would be much more accepting. You don't go to the Kia dealer expecting a Ferrari to be waiting there. You have to keep in mind we would have the same reaction to a $200 vs. a $2,000 analog piece. No free lunch means there is no free lunch. An extra $1800 spent on power supplies, matching components to a tight tolerance and also buying and building the best components money can get would go a long way toward what we expect from an amplifier. Budget gear is budget gear. I can name a dozen pieces of budget gear that had their moment in audio. I doubt you can find any of them still working. Corners get cut, things are made on the cheap and here comes another flash in the pan. If you like the sound and you've found others who agree with you on another forum, isn't that enough? Some of us may not be the early adopters. If the Class D amps are the wave of the future, we'll get there soon enough. You are running into a bit of opposition because many of us have been through the early stages of the various "revolutions" in audio. Hell, I used to sell ElCasets, DCC, the Infinity click and pop machine, Audio Pulse bucket brigade digital time delay and quite a few more that I have thankfully forgotten. I sold Counterpoint, Superphon, Eagle, ADC, Empire and so on. If you are happy the Panasonic does what you want, what more do you need, ed? http://www.yourencyclopedia.net/Elcassette.html http://www.idexter.com/the_house/03_den.html (notice the brand of Elcaset pictured) http://audiotools.com/oldf.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Compact_Cassette http://www.xs4all.nl/~jacg/philips/dcc.html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1671 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually from my perpsective it doesn't matter whether the Panny is $200 or $2000 at this point in the evolution of digital amplifier technology I don't like the sound. But I am an admitted dinosaur. I am however interested in hearing the above mentioned Yammie (geez did those words come out of me). Eddie you've become a basshead and I don't know what I'm becoming. Lord help us Paul is having more of an impact on us than we are on him...LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2440 Registered: Jan-05 | http://www.idexter.com/the_house/03_den.html (notice the brand of Elcaset pictured) ============ OMG............ What in the hell is that? Please tell me you're joking, and thats not really your house. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5739 Registered: May-04 | Who is this "us", Kimosabee? |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 313 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan I think though we are talking here more about a paradigm shift of analog to digital receivers more akin to shift in recording and media from analog to digital, rather than marginal tech fads like the ones you posted. If there is a paradigm shift I don't suspect Panasonic will be leading it, but I think Edster's challenge is about much more than just a new gadget in the market. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5744 Registered: May-04 | p - Just how difficult is it for you to comprehend what you read? P.I.S.S. - 5. Lowered only because there were no references to your gender identification issues. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 505 Registered: May-05 | OK Jan and Edster and the rest of you neer do wells, I am one of the fortunate ones. My wife doesn't like jewelry, doesn't wear jewelry BUT she spends plenty on other things. AND NO, I am not about to play nice with her on this one, I bought the watch for its potential appreciation value, it did and I sold it specifically to look at some other audio options. She agreed in advance, SO ON THIS ONE, (this will scare you) I'M TAKING A PAUL STAND!!! ROTFL and MCOMNL. (BTW, I've coined and copywrited the term "MCOMNL" and you have to pay me a nickel every time you use it from now on - it stands for "Milk Coming Out My Nose Laughing". It's much more descriptive than the rest, I think. In fact, it's right there behind Tim's Lings on the technical innovation front.) So, I'm not looking at the Panny, Edster, but i'm looking. I think you or Stof may have pointed at the Outlaws at one point and they're in the running. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 506 Registered: May-05 | Geez, I went over 500 posts, 5 posts, now 6, ago and no one threw me a party, what's with that? MCOMNL |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5745 Registered: May-04 | Stof - I have no doubt there will be a shift to a new technology; there is always a shift to a new technology. I offered the Elcaset and so forth to merely illustrate each of these products suggested just such a paradigm shift before they began swirling around the bowl for the last time. I would surely be remiss if I didn't suggest SACD and DVD-A offered us such essential shifts in technology also. Where are they now? Class D amplifiers will become the next generation of products just as the Audio Pulse bucket brigade time delay and the Infinity digital pop and click machine represent an early stage in what we see on the shelves right now. The most obvious benefit of Class D operation, as I see it, is a reduction in weight and temperature. Efficiency of operation. Weight reduction will result in less cost to ship just as direct coupled transistors were cheaper to ship overseas than transformer coupled tube amps. We are interested in the financial bottom line when discussing the receivers. Less heat will offer more on paper power for more channels. New product to buy. (See my comment regarding the bottom line.) While I see your point as to a paradigm shift in marketing new technology, I am reminded of no new technologies which were successfully led by the low end of the price structure. I think someone jumping on the early adopter bandwagon with the Channel Islands product is more likely to have success than with a budget product. I don't intend to criticize ed's decision to buy this receiver - but cheap is cheap. A Kia is not a Ferrari and a Panasonic receiver is not a $1600 pair of monoblocks. Personally, I feel the world needs more decent sounding audio equipment which doesn't make your heart skip when you read the price tag. If ed has found what suits his needs, that's terrific. Whether he will be telling his grandchildren how he was the first to realize there was a route to India named Panasonic or he was among the first to think sailing North in December was the best thing to do remains to be seen. I agree no one without personal experience with this Panasonic can truly comment on its potential. It just seems to me we've made it plain we are not interested in the Panasonic at this time. If ed likes it, and understands somewhat why he might prefer it to the NAD, then that should be enough, I would think. To go on is bordering on the same obssession of someone who insists I measure everything before I listen or there is only one way to design a speaker. Ed, listen to the Panasonic as I have suggested. If you truly like the Panasonic, it's yours! I won't denigrate your choice. It's your choice. Everybody gets to like what they like. If I asked you to carry the Panasonic to a McIntosh dealer and make a comparison, would you feel compelled to say yes? It would only cost your time and gas. Use the Panasonic in good health. We don't have to own what you do, or even think it's great. It's your choice. Enjoy. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5746 Registered: May-04 | "Geez, I went over 500 posts, 5 posts, now 6, ago and no one threw me a party, what's with that?" Poor child. |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 315 Registered: Apr-05 | " I am reminded of no new technologies which were successfully led by the low end of the price structure" Likewise, no diss intended for you Edster, I am reminded of no technology breakthrough from Panasonic. Dave what did you sell your Omega for? I have two of them around that are over 30 years old. They don't work unfortunately and I don't want to fix them, but I don't know what else to do with them. People are telling me there are these new fandangled digital watches around, but I don't think I will like them |
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Bronze Member Username: MonkeycycleJamaica Plain, MA USA Post Number: 22 Registered: Mar-05 | Art writes: "at this point in the evolution of digital amplifier technology I don't like the sound." Art, doesn't the Hsu VTF have (and most new subs) have a class D digital amp? I guess you're about to get a taste of how nice digital can sound. Jans point about the low end of the market rarely leading the way into good new technology is correct, but Panny certainly isn't the first to make a digital amp. There are several MUCH more expensive digital amps that have been around for some time. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2444 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, Please tell me your house wasnt pictured in that mess. PLEASE....... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1676 Registered: Feb-05 | The Hsu Sub uses a BASH amp which is a hybrid class D, class A/B amp. I've also owned the Paradigm PW2100 which had a pure class D amp. I hope you don't think that there is any comparison between using a class D amp for sub 40hz duties as for the rest of sonic spectrum. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1970 Registered: Mar-05 | OK guys, I won't attempt any further prosletyzing. At least not on this thread, and not with you guys in particular. Other posters, esp. newbies, are however fair game. Nice links you posted there, Jan. I'll report in a few days after my NAD journey is complete and I go back to the Panny for music. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1971 Registered: Mar-05 | > Likewise, no diss intended for you Edster, I am reminded of no technology breakthrough from Panasonic. Stof: I am not either, come to think of it...LOL! Oh well you know the old saw, "there's a first time for everything..." |
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New member Username: AdventusPost Number: 8 Registered: Sep-05 | Ahhhh, Whatever; what Ed says makes a lot of sense. |
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Another Bob Jones Unregistered guest | My HK 7200 made a trip to the local service center (big surprise there) so I bought an XR55 to play with while it was in the shop, expecting to move it to the bedroom when the HK was back home. What I found was that I preferred the XR55 for several reasons. The LFE crossovers on each receiver must have different slopes, once I calibrated the sub with the Panasonic I was surprised to find that the blend from sub to mains was more natural and I preferred listening to music with the sub, which I did not when I was using the 7200. The more I listened the more I liked. I was anxious to hook the 7200 again to compare. When the 7200 was returned I re-calibrated the sub and tried to get the same sound from the HK, but no luck. The HK has a warmer sound that in my room just comes across as bloated. I went back and forth for a few weeks and always preferred the Panasonic. I have efficient bookshelves and a powered sub, so I don't really need the HK's power, nor do I need its triple crossover. I bought it to get some good analog amps in a nice receiver. There's not a chance I will ever blow that kind of money on an analog amp/receiver in the future. A $250 all-digital Panasonic ended up sounding as good, in some cases better. Just as dynamic and detailed. Oh yes, and without any of that lovely HK hiss. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2447 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, Please tell me that wasnt your home. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1979 Registered: Mar-05 | Bob, The HK 7200 is what, a $1500 receiver? Wow. I agree with you on the Panny integrating the sub well, and that's me having a crappy little JBL. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2057 Registered: Mar-05 | EDSTER EMERGES FROM THE WILDERNESS... LOL, after a couple of days listening only to the NAD as per Jan's suggestions I wobbled back to my Panny, and... (click!) Yup. Sigh. Folks, I'm simply addicted to digital sound now: the silky yet exquisitely detailed highs and mids, the tight and precise bass, the zero noise/distortion no matter how high the volume, the beautifully transparent and airy soundstage with flawless separation: it's just...too...much...too...much!!! Good God Almighty, it's like heroin for the ears!!! ... The NAD is now resting comfortably in my bedroom where it is doing unspeakable things to my truly "petite" (Paul's favorite adjective) little Mordaunt Short MS-05s which were used to being driven by a POS Sony minisystem. Depending on whether I have to buy a car amp or not (the new low-impedance speakers come in on Friday, I'll wait to see if smoke starts rising from the stock HU) I think I will spring for a pair of Tim's Lings and have a little analog oasis in my bedroom, should Jan or any of you other die-hard analog folks ever come to visit. : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2478 Registered: Jan-05 | It doesnt surprise me that even a cheap entry level panny is capable of outperforming your NAD separates. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2065 Registered: Mar-05 | heh, same old same old song ad nauseum...sheesh do you think you could have ONE original, non-repetive thought for a change, Paul? BORRRRR-RING!!! |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Paul, You should have been in bed four hours ago. Now, be a good boy and go to sleep or else! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2067 Registered: Mar-05 | I think he didn't swallow his meds, just pretended to in front of the night nurse... lol |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | I think he has watched too many times the Incredibles and now he thinks he is a really a bad boy.... Paul....sorry to break the news to you but Dash is not real.... |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Back to the Panny....it is still hard to believe edster but you seem to be very happy with it so....enjoy! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2068 Registered: Mar-05 | Yeah, I'm pleased as punch. Did feel more than a slight twinge of guilt as I moved my beloved NADs though... : ( Now I have to unload the Marantz, sigh. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2482 Registered: Jan-05 | Im happy that you've finally stepped 'up' to entry level components. You're system is definitely headed in the right direction. Now if only you were to upgrade your current TV to a 13" model, you'll really be cooking. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2070 Registered: Mar-05 | la di da, la di da, Mr. Broken-Record Retard emerges yet again! LOL |
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Anonymous | I think Paul suffered a hard knock to the head as a child... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2105 Registered: Mar-05 | just FYI, for those curious to get a little technical info on this thing, this link I got from the avsforum.com thread: http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/audio/receivers/features.asp |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 679 Registered: Oct-04 | If the Panasonic is indeed so good, you should take a listen to the HK DPR2005, I'd be interested in the comparison. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2107 Registered: Mar-05 | I'd be curious too, but I can't find any local shops that carry it since Fry's cleared them out a few months ago. Of course it's about 3-4x the price of the Panny... I think I do remember reading one person who did compare the two on that monster +60 page thread "list of digital receivers" in avsforum.com and found them fairly close... am just too lazy to go back and browse through all those pages to find it though. |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 229 Registered: Dec-03 | Edster, I was reading the SA-XR55 manual and was puzzled by this statement on page 15:
What would be so special about the COAX1 input? Why would it be different than COAX2 or the two digital optical inputs??? Any comments? BTW, I read some of the thread over on AVSForum [I didn't find an answer to the above question] and because of your comments, the H/K 7200 replacement story and several positive comments regarding DVD-A/SACD playback my curiosity has gotten the better of me and I'm going to pick one of these up for a testdrive...I've just got to see what one of these can do. I'm currently biased towards thinking it'll be returned in 30 days, even if I like it because it's lacking a few features...let's see what happens. Say, what do you use for speakers? Are they relatively efficient? Smitty |
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Silver Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 136 Registered: Apr-04 | Smitty - I had the XR50 for 2 weeks and then sent it back. Besides the lack of features, I just didn't find the sound appealing. It was rather sterile and bright sounding. This may appeal to some but since I prefer the "colored" sound of such products as NAD, Cambridge, Harman Kardon etc, the XR50 really didn't cut it. For the money, its fine in a second system etc. but it is NOT the killer people make it out to be. In my experience, there is no magic or inexepensive analog killer out there and in most cases, you get what you pay for. With all that said, buy one, try it out and see if you agree. No one can have an opinion unless they personally try it. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2126 Registered: Mar-05 | I was a little puzzled by that too, the Panny has its share of idiosyncrasies though. Good to hear about your willingness to experiment. My speakers are Ascend 340s, 8 ohms and 92db sensitivity. They are famously neutral with a gorgeous midrange and crystal clear highs, made by a former M&K designer. The Panny is actually rated at 6 ohms and I've heard of people running 4 ohm Maggies with them without a hiccup so I think that lack of power is definitely not an issue here---something that continues to amaze me about this little baby. Part of that is you hear so much rich detail at low to moderate volumes that don't need to crank it up to get the full enjoyment of the music like most receivers. The volume range is 0-79 and at 40-45 it already fills up my 6000 cubic foot space effortlessly. When I did a 90-95db test with my NAD separates the Panny showed zero distortion or thinness at that extreme volume, it was just spectacular. I think the one caveat about these all-digitals is you don't want to pair them with a bright speaker that has weak mids, because the incredible high range detail it puts out would likely end up overwhelming and fatiguing you with that type of speaker. This is where my Ascends seem to be a perfect match, because I have never heard the "thin" or "bright" characteristics that some digital detractors have complained about. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2127 Registered: Mar-05 | Markus, I'm curious, what speakers were you running for the xr50? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2129 Registered: Mar-05 | It occurred to me that despite the Panny's jaw-dropping pricepoint, one of the primary reasons it has not taken over the audio market yet is because it does require high quality speakers to sound good. The average typical cheap speaker out there is designed for average cheap analog receivers and for the average person's musical tastes which is more along the lines of rock, rap, and country music than jazz or clasical: they tend to feature boomy bass, tipped up treble, and a hollow midrange. |
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New member Username: AdventusPost Number: 10 Registered: Sep-05 | Eddie, I will connect the analog audio out from my DVD player to the Panny's analog video in terminals for playing DVDs. Can I connect the DVD player's digital coax out to the Panny's CD coax (coax 2) in to play CDs on the Panny's CD setting? Or should I plug the digital out from the DVD player into the coax 1 terminal for CD listening? |
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Silver Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 137 Registered: Apr-04 | Edster - I paired the Panny up with Monitor Audio B2s in the bedroom, Definitive Technology BP7004s in the living room and Paradigm Reference 20s in the office. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2135 Registered: Mar-05 | Greg, actually for DVDs you *must* use the coax or optical connection in order to get full Dolby sound. For CDs you can use coax, optical, or analog. Some people find the analog to be "warmer"---I find all three very very similar. It also depends on the quality of your CD player, if it's not so good then use the coax or optical, that way you'll be using the receiver's DAC. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2137 Registered: Mar-05 | Markus, I'm not familiar with the DefTechs but I did hear the MA B2s and found them IMHO very bright and unnatural. The Paradigm Refs I have not heard but am told they are comparable to the Ascend 170s, so I am a little surprised that you didn't like how the Panny sounded with them because the Ascend 170s are an impeccably neutral speaker, even a tad more so than my 340s at high volumes in fact. Also I have heard some people say that the xr55 sounds fuller than the xr50, have had no chance to hear the 50 myself. Oh well, different strokes for different folks... |
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Silver Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 138 Registered: Apr-04 | Exactly - different strokes. That's why I always re-iterate that people should do a demo themselves, otherwise they can't have an opinion and shouldn't praise or slam a product until such time as they have formed that opinion. There are many people like yourself at Audio Circle and Audio Asylum who have embraced the Panny such as yourself and sold of thier Lexicon, Bryston etc. gear. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2138 Registered: Mar-05 | I haven't checked out those two forums yet, thanks for the tip. I totally agree with the home demo---especially with this Panny now available at Circuit City, that's like home demo heaven! : ) |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 230 Registered: Dec-03 | I expect to be letdown with the XR55, but I just have to try it out... Hey Marcus, How's your AVR635 holding out? I was thinking about trying out the AVR435 later this year or early next year when the AVR440s come out and the price drops. I'm generally happy with the CA 540R but would like a bit more mid-bass for music ala NAD, but don't want to give up the HT capability of the 540R. Does the AVR635 and presumably AVR435 fit the bill in this regard? (I believe you had a NAD T752 and the CA 540R at some point). Thanks, Smitty |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2139 Registered: Mar-05 | > I expect to be letdown with the XR55, but I just have to try it out... Well, make sure you give it a fair shake---I'd say listen only to it for about 3 days, then go back to your analog receiver to compare. If your speakers are up to it, I have a feeling you'll be pleased. And if not, you'll at least have some legit basis to dismiss it. |
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Silver Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 139 Registered: Apr-04 | Smitty - the AVR635 and I are parting company. The video switching died in my unit (relay is shot) and I can't be bothered to send the unit to HK USA to get it fixed. I still like the sound of the unit but miss the huge sound stage I had with my separates last year. The EQ is a great feature in that it helps to tame bass nulls and peaks but I found that the EQ shrinks the sound stage somewhat so it becomes a question of what you can live with - more accurate bass and dialog or somewhat boomier bass but a larger overall sound stage. Right now I'm running an old Outlaw Audio 950 pre pro and an HK 5 channel amp and it still sounds nice - probably on par with the HK sound wise, they just simply sound different, that's all. I still prefer the CA540R for movies but it does not pass a Hi Def signal over its component video outputs so I just happily use it in my home office. Currently looking for a different pre pro simply because I am bored and want to try something new. Might try the P-965 from Sherwood, buy the Anthem AVM20 again or may just buy the Sunfire Ultimate Receiver and be done with it. |
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Silver Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 140 Registered: Apr-04 | Smitty - forgot to mention that I would probably jump at the Arcam AVR300 if I had the chance but CDN price are out of hand for that unit - $3200 after taxes. |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 231 Registered: Dec-03 | Edster, I'll definately give it a fair shake. I do have *some* hope that I'll be impressed by the unit, otherwise I wouldn't bother at all. Markus, I see...too bad about the AVR635. The old "I'm bored and want to try something new" is a dangerous habit ;) You may want to read up on the Outlaw 1070 receiver, the specs look pretty good. The downside is that it would be expensive to import one($US899 + shipping + duties + taxes...probably C$1400 or so), if you didn't like it you lose the shipping costs. Plus, for warranty issues you're looking at shipping to the States as well. This place has the Arcam AVR200 for C$1195 Emeral Audio |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2149 Registered: Mar-05 | Bravo! are you ordering it online or picking up at CC? |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 232 Registered: Dec-03 | Edster, I'm planning on picking one up before the weekend at either Best Buy or Future Shop (There's no CC here in Canada). They both have a 30-day no-hassle return policy --- despite the problems with big-box stores, that's one significant advantage they have over the boutique shops. BTW - my front main speakers are older model Acoustic Research 310HO towers, 95dB sensitivity, 8 ohm...no idea if they would be classified as bright, neutral or dark but they do sound very good with several receivers I've owned including H/K AVR30, NAD T742 & T752 and a CA 540R. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1429 Registered: Feb-04 | (There's no CC here in Canada) Technically, the old Radio Shack are now CC. But they don't sell the same stuff as in the US. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 521 Registered: May-05 | Peter, my man. Where you been hanging out, at Radio Shack? Smitty, I'll look forward to your thoughts on the Panny, especially with a number of components to compare the sound to. Given my recent experience locally with No NADs, I may pick one up and demo it as well. Likewise, I'll report back on Edster's thread, if I do it. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 681 Registered: Oct-04 | Over here in BC Radio Shack has become "The Source," still no Circuit City. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2154 Registered: Mar-05 | YESSSSSSSSSSS! do it David, just do it! You may never look back at analog gear ever again... |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 233 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey Edster...I just picked one up. Now...if I could only come up with some excuse to leave work early... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2160 Registered: Mar-05 | ooh, I can't wait to read your thoughts! Hope I'll still have power by the time you write it. Rita is supposed to hit us late tomorrow night sometime... Please try and see if you can share your thoughts before I lose power and/or float downstream... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2161 Registered: Mar-05 | PS. Just remember two things: 1. warm or neutral speakers are best for all-digitals, bright ones with weak mids are disastrous. 2. many people have reported that they sound much better after about 40 hours of "burn-in" which could refer to user as much as receiver. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1727 Registered: Feb-05 | Eddie, good luck with Rita my prayers will be with you and your family. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2169 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks Art, I appreciate that. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2539 Registered: Jan-05 | Sorry, but I cant do the same. If he had a shred of common sense, and he wouldnt need praying for because he'd be out of harms way. The deathcount will obviously be much lower than Nawlins since those running the show locally in Texas are actually implementing their plan rather than doing nothing, but many will still die, and most will only have themselves to blame. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2179 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL it's quite hilarious how someone who loves to beat his chest and toot his own horn as being a WAF-proof manly-man actually turns out to be a bit hysterical and yellow when the sh*t finally hits the fan... |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Paul, Now, It is much easier to understand why you don't have any friends. Edster, Good luck buddy, hang on tight. My Prayers with ya'll. *Texas accent* |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 682 Registered: Oct-04 | That was a very cold hearted comment Paul. Maybe you should keep your political BS out of the forum, your asanine comments on bookshelf speakers, music snobs, and NAD are enough to keep everyone riled up. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2542 Registered: Jan-05 | Being in charge of what toys I purchase is one thing, but risking the lives of my wife or children is another thing entirely. My job is to ensure the safety of my family, and that isnt one that I take lightly. I obviously wish you no ill will, but if tragedy does strike you or someone you love, you wont get any pity party from me since you willingly brought it onto yourself. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2180 Registered: Mar-05 | Kano, oh don't be too hard on him Kano, Paul is just being himself: a simple-minded 30-something unhappy child begging for attention the only way he knows how, by trying to be as obnoxious as possible. better to pet him on the head and send him on his way, he'll grow up SOMEday. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2543 Registered: Jan-05 | Yea, and in the coming week, people will be moaning about those poor unfortunate souls who lost their lives. The reality is that those who die will not be victoms of Rita, but rather victoms of their own stupidity. Well, at least you'll know my response in advance. Luckily most people in Texas have sense enough to get out of the way, and I doubt the death toll will be very high because of that. It irks me that those who do get killed(and there will be deaths), died for their own lack of common sense because we all know they had more than enough time to heed the warning. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Paul, I said it before, I feel deeply sorry for those who must share their lives with you...god bless them indeed. You are by far the most "shitie" person I have ever known. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2545 Registered: Jan-05 | Give me a break..... Eddie is the one willingly risking his wifes life by not getting her out of what will most likely become smack dab in the middle of ground zero of a major natural disaster. I feel sorry for her. A good husband would get her the hell out of there. Luckily he has no children because he'd probably play Russian Roulette with their lives too. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1026 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul you are rude and insinsitive this not bookshelf speakers or tiny halfpints or girllyman speakers these are peoples lives you SICK TWISTED PR1CK,Damnit you Fuck1ng AS.HOLE.How dare you turn your back on your countryman like that,And you have nerve to talk politics you should be ashamed of every fiber of your being! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2547 Registered: Jan-05 | One other thing.... You know all those Nawlins parents crying and moaning about their missing or deceased children?? Those parents make me sick to my stomach, and I think they should be arrested for child endangerment or manslaughter for not taking them to safety. Heck, they only had a weeks notice, and dont give me that poverty crap. They rolled the dice on their childrens lives thinking they'd be OK , and they were wrong. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2548 Registered: Jan-05 | Taw, Im not turning my back on anyone. I just take things for face value, and if someone plays Russian Roulette with their own life, and lose..... What is there to say?? They're grownups and made their own bed, so now they'll have to sleep in it. In many cases.....that will be forever. Heck, I dug deep and gave $500 to the red cross(my employer matches too). I feel terrible for the hardship of those who live in the area and for their losses of jobs, property, and belongings, but I feel no pity for those who died because they were too stupid to protect their own lives, or those of their family members. I do believe that those parents should be arrested and charged. It disgusts me like you wouldnt believe. It isnt like we still live in the stoneage when hurricanes caught people by surpise. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2181 Registered: Mar-05 | guys, guys, guys--- how many times do I have to tell you: NEVER FEED A TROLL? lol |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | I just wonder who the ...F u c k...you think you are to judge people? Man, this is just escalating too much. As much as you differ with edster's decision is not your place to judge him or anyone else. If you were a good friend and you were sincere you would give advice in a positive way and you would not try to make anybody feel guilty. $500.00 might be a nice gesture but your stupid attitude sure makes it easy to forget. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2549 Registered: Jan-05 | I feel strongly and believe everyone should contribute to the rebuilding of that region in anyway they can. I feel horrible for the residents of that region because of the devastation and hardships they will be forced to endure. You can also tell that I take family serious, and get very angry at those who are willing to risk whats most important..... the lives of those who they should be protecting. On that note..... It's off to bed..... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2183 Registered: Mar-05 | > You can also tell that I take family serious, and get very angry at those who are willing to risk whats most important..... the lives of those who they should be protecting. You need to see "Internal Affairs," Paul. The Richard Gere character is a perfect example of someone who uses caring for their "family" as a convenient cover for their own personal cowardice and hypocrisy. It's also typical of your hilariously outdated mentality that you've never considered the possibility that my wife might've ALSO wanted to stay here, rather than assuming that the husband always decides everything by himself and the rest of the family just obeys like a bunch of sheep? Not all of us married some submissive doormat of a woman, Paul. |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 234 Registered: Dec-03 | Edster, I hope you and your family remain safe during the hurricane. I had a bit of time to try out the XR55 and my initial impression is it's not too bad. It does seem bright with some material (eg. Tom Petty - Wildflowers). The soundstage, detail and vocals are generally pretty good --- again it seems to vary with material as well as volume level. I find at low volumes the highs are overly-emphasized, but that starts to go away as the volume level rises. I'll need to calibrate things better as the 5.1 inputs sound substantially better than the COAX1. With the 5.1 inputs the highs have been tamed and the bass is fuller. The 80Hz crossover seems to behave differently than the 80Hz crossover in my CA 540R in that there is a lot less bass going to the fronts. I set them to LARGE and it was much better. I listened to the Blue Man Group 'Complex' DVD-A and it sounded quite good. The steering of the 5.1 effects was very smooth. The sound from the surrounds seemed low but I haven't level matched the speakers yet. I found the DPLIIx Music and the other DSP modes very poor though. It didn't have that 'enveloping' sound. Too bad it doesn't have an all-speaker stereo mode. So overall, I'm more impressed than I thought I'd be. It's definately on the bright side when using the digital inputs but hopefully calibration will take care of that. I'll calibrate it over the weekend and hopefully have some time for testing with a bit more volume. If it can cleanly hit 110dB peaks with AC/DC's Thunderstruck I'll be impressed. I don't actually listen to music at this level for more than 30 seconds...but it's one of my favourite tests Haven't tried any DVDs yet. Smitty |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 896 Registered: Sep-04 | Hey is this thread still alive? jeez... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2185 Registered: Mar-05 | Smitty, You may find the brightness decreasing a lot after about 40 hours, that's what many users on other forums report. I don't think 110db will be a problem, it did 95db for me without breaking a sweat, zero distortion. Doing 110db may be more of a test of the speakers than the receiver. Try it on 2-channel, also try bi-amping if your speakers are biampable. Also after a couple of days of listening only to the Panny, you may truly appreciate its SQ only when you go back to your analog gear, as happened to me. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 525 Registered: May-05 | Ed, Sorry, I was out all evening and didn't check in so I hope all is alright in your world. I'm not going to jump into the rest of the bruhaha. My politics are my own business and I just think it's inappropriate to be 1000s of miles away and try to guess why someone did or didn't do what they did. I grew up in CA. lived through a couple of horrendous earthquakes and survived. But, if something had gone differently, you could make the same arguments as Paul about my parents. Not fair arguments IMHO. It's always easier to be a Monday morning quarterback than to take the hit, brush yourself off, face the neck pass rush and throw the ball. So, Ed, stay out of harms way and our prayers go with ya, big fella. (Your wife, too.) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2189 Registered: Mar-05 | thanks David. Right now it looks like we in Houston have dodged the bullet, barring some last minute dramatic turn of the storm. Street flooding will be the main concern if the storm stalls over East Texas as some forecasters are predicting, but nothing like what the Big Easy went through, certainly not at my location...at most a few inches of water downstairs, no biggy. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1732 Registered: Feb-05 | Eddie and Dave (and all who still care to listen), I went shopping in Portland today. I listened to every brand of AVR money can buy. Arcam, Yamaha, HK, Denon, Marantz, Panasonic (yes your beloved Panny), JVC, and god knows what else. This shopping spree was brought on by yet another unhappy NAD owner (me). I now own a Yammie (yes you heard me Paul). I confirmed my dislike for the digital receivers. I must say that the technology holds some promise as it is being used with some very high end gear. But with the stuff I can afford i'll stick with my old dinosaur technology. I know you generation X'rs get frustrated with us stuck boomers, but hey we do the best we can. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2191 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, how was the Panny set up? I guarantee you if it were paired with some crappy and/or bright speakers it will indeed sound horrible. So what on earth possessed you to buy a YAMMIE of all things? Surely you jest!!! This I gotta hear. But please detail it on another thread, this thread is already about 70% digression. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1735 Registered: Feb-05 | I will start another thread. The first thing that got me thinking about the Yammie was the article in "The Perfect Vision" this month. Then the Hsu hum which as it turns out was mostly NAD hum was just the last straw. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1740 Registered: Feb-05 | Eduardo Nietzsche....please Eddie you're killin' me. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2193 Registered: Mar-05 | yeah I was a big fan of that half-mad ubermensch-creator back in college. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1744 Registered: Feb-05 | Just glad to hear from ya...looks like an ill wind is blowin' your way. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2196 Registered: Mar-05 | Actually no, latest news reports indicate that in central Houston it looks like we won't even get anything worse than tropical storm conditions, which had me cracking up after the last few days of mass hysteria, gridlock, etc. The Good Lord is merciful this time around, but maybe also has a wicked sense of humor too! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1747 Registered: Feb-05 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/8380.html Interesting how this old discussion brings up this old thread where folks discuss a Panasonic digital receiver. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2198 Registered: Mar-05 | ah, God bless the "search" function! When it works that is. It's too bad this Gregory Stern fella doesn't post around here any more. Must've overdosed on Paul, lol. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1753 Registered: Feb-05 | I found that thread using Google. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 530 Registered: May-05 | Art, See my comments on your thread. OK, I'm going out and purchasing a 4000 wpc Kenwood HT receiver (actual watts are somewhere near 35 wpc) just to spite you guys and I'm buying Bose speakers to go with it. SO THERE!! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2201 Registered: Mar-05 | > I found that thread using Google. ah, that makes sense. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2550 Registered: Jan-05 | And to think that $200 Panny outperforms the NAD separates is pretty impressive. |
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New member Username: T2tPost Number: 1 Registered: Sep-05 | I know you generation X'rs get frustrated with us stuck boomers, but hey we do the best we can. Hey now. I'm a boomer, but act like a Generation X individual all too often. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1763 Registered: Feb-05 | Yeah I'm a tweener too. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2306 Registered: Mar-05 | Interesting article on the technical details of these digital amps, I confess to not having read the whole thing all that closely yet: http://resmagonline.com/articles/publish/printer_73.shtml |
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confused22 Unregistered guest | ok So I think I am going to order a Panny xr55. Before I do, what doesn't it do. I know it doesnt have any pre-outs, but what else is it missing? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2373 Registered: Mar-05 | Bass management only goes down to 80Hz crossover. No automatic room/speaker calibration EQ. Badly written/organized manual, better ease of use on Onkyo & Sony receivers but those have very inferior SQ. Remote control could be better, doesn't allow you to change some settings unless you use the main unit. IMHO these are all fairly minor quibbles given the stupendous performance-to-price ratio. But I'd gladly pay say an extra $200 for those features as long as the SQ is equal or better, personally. |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 244 Registered: Dec-03 | It doesn't have digital outputs, AutoEQ, OSD(On Screen Display) or an "all-speaker stereo mode". Subwoofer crossover setting is limited to 80, 100, 150 and 200Hz. That's about all I can think of. I "experimented" with one for about two weeks but ended up returing it. I just didn't like the sound compared to my existing Cambridge Audio 540R (MSRP $699). From what I've read, a big factor is your speakers, with my ARs it was just too bright and never seemed to power the surrounds properly (which are 91dB sensivity bookshelves compared to 95dB towers for fronts). It was worthwhile tryout though, it made me realize much I like the sound of the CA 540R. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2376 Registered: Mar-05 | Oops, forgot about the extra connections in the back that it doesn't have, and yep also no OSD. Not that I ever used the one my Marantz had... Smitty, I'm glad to hear that you gave it a fair shake though. That's what big box stores are for! As for your surrounds, yeah with a 4 db gap in sensitivity that's tough...did you have the surrounds' speaker levels way up to try and compensate for it? |
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Silver Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 245 Registered: Dec-03 | Edster, I did up the surrounds to +4, which resulted in the same level with the SPL meter using the test tones, however they always seemed to be missing something particularly during SACD and DVD-A playback. The ARs are all the same model line, I'm not sure why the sensitivity is so different --- I suppose bookshelves typically have a lower sensitivity rating than towers, but it's never been an issue with other receivers I've owned. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2377 Registered: Mar-05 | Interesting! I only have 1 pair of surrounds, so have never tried to use all of the Panny's amps at the same time. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2520 Registered: Mar-05 | Just another addition...this is a year old, but here's another Panny convert, but sounds like he's coming from a much higher-dollar audio background than me: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=amp&m=36537 Interesting thing is that he was/is a TUBE guy! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1930 Registered: Feb-05 | Wonder how he feels about it now almost 2 yrs later. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2525 Registered: Mar-05 | that's a good question, Art. I clicked on his user name but it says he doesn't accept PMs. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2543 Registered: Mar-05 | and this is a thread that popped up on AVS, which is actually a year-old thread on Audio Asylum regarding this Panny's ability to handle 4 ohm loads: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=amp&m=50739 Again, these posters have far higher end gear than yours truly. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1457 Registered: Feb-04 | Edster, Pity you don't read french because there's a thread on www.quebecaudio.com where a few people are thrilled with their xr55, one of them much preferring it over a Denon 3805. He's getting flack from others on the forum too. You're not alone! :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2611 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter, oh I KNOW I'm far from alone, just browse through avsforum.com ... just posted the following link on Budget-Minded's new xr55 thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...t=591368&page=3 specifically, read posts #53, 56, and 57. These are owners of a Denon 5800, HK7000, HK7200, and Denon 3802. This is just one small example. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2623 Registered: Mar-05 | Here's a review of the older sa-xr70, I liked the last paragraph: "BOTTOM LINE: If you just want to impress your friends, go ahead and buy a traditional huge A/V receiver. But if you want high-quality performance and easy setup at a budget-friendly price, the SA-XR70 has it all in spades -- which is also pretty impressive. Sure, it lacks a few niceties you'll find in high-end receivers. But it delivers the basics, and then some, at a very generous price." http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=806&page_nu mber=1 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2660 Registered: Mar-05 | This is a nice discussion on the technical details of these all-digitals in comparison to analog receivers, entitled "Paradigm Shift on Audio Technology." Something I hadn't realized was that the xr55 is actually the FOURTH generation all-digital from Panasonic. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=591961&page=1&p p=30 |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2024 Registered: Feb-05 | I just came back from a long demo with The Panny using PSB and Cabasse speakers with a Marantz CC4300 cd player and IMO it is one of the worst pieces of audio gear I've ever heard. It had plenty of power but voices didn't even sound human. We tried 2 different units one that they had in HT setup and one in their 2 channel setup. I focused primarily on the 2 channel setup. They are no longer selling Marantz because they sell HK but they still use the CC4300 for cd demo's. We listened to several pieces of music, from John Scofield to country (I don't like country but some of it is well recorded). The Panny controlled bass better than I thought it would and it is quite detailed although the details could hardly be less accurate in terms of timbre. It sounded very glass like, not bright but glossy. After considersble time playing music through the Panny we swithched to 3 different HK receivers starting with the 135 and finishing with the 435. Immediately upon switching to the HK we all smiled and nodded our heads we recognized the voices again and everything sounded musical and balanced, same details but in proper proportion. We used PSB, Cabasse and Jamo speakers but focused mainly on a set of $1200 floorstanding Cabasse speakers. They are a very nicely constructed speaker with a robust low end. The HK receivers just outperformed the Panny by a mile and in every conceivable way. Now I really don't get it. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2025 Registered: Feb-05 | Hopefully no offense has been taken as none was intended. We all have different preferences. Honestly I was shocked at just how poor the sound quality really is with the Panny. I did forget to mention that we used Ixos cables which are a budget cable but not a bad one. Of all the products that have received accolades here on this forum I'm betting that the one I would like the most is Tim's Lings. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2663 Registered: Mar-05 | No offense taken whatsover Art, no worries! I'm happy that you're doing some thorough listening with the Panny though, regardless of your final opinion. (I've been away from my computer for much of today since discovering that my truck was broken into last night: smashed window, ripped out head unit and other damage. So lots of fun with the cops, insurance, glass company, cleaning up, etc. Tonight before I go to bed have to duct tape some cardboard over the broken window since the replacement glass won't get here until Wednesday! Anyways am glad that I have only a $50 deductible and the HU was half broken anyways, but still it's a pain in the @ss.) I am not familiar with Cabasse and Jamo speakers at all, but have heard a few PSBs which did not impress me at all. However I'm curious about a couple of things: 1. Whose Panny was it? I'd be very suprised (but impressed) if you had finally overcome your usual reluctance to buy-and-try. 2. How long had it been used since being taken out of the box? Receiver burn-in is one of those iffy "audio-mystic" subjects like cables and power conditioners---but one fairly consistent feature I do see in all the digital receiver threads in other forums is that apparently these receivers are said to require 20-40 hours of "burn in" time. Frankly I don't know quite what to make of that because I know it's not scientifically supported, but I do know that I was the most impressed with my Panny after listening to only it (and leaving it on during all non-sleeping hours) for about 3-4 days, and then switching back to my NAD and Marantz. Or maybe this thing just "grows" on you, I dunno. 3. Where and with whom did you do all of these listening trials? I would be a little leery of doing this at some high end boutique shop since they have an obvious interest in "proving" that no $230 puny little thing can compete with their much more expensive analog behemoths, and also the clubby/cliqueish atmosphere that such places usually have can greatly color one's perceptions. Those are just questions, I don't mean to discredit your opinion. Maybe the Ascends would make the Panny sound very different to your ears, but then again maybe not. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 156 Registered: Dec-04 | I have a hard time believing that the panny is better under $2000 than my hk avr55 and Rotel 985 combo. Sorry, But I may try just to prove it. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2665 Registered: Mar-05 | Nuck, Your skepticism is entirely understandable, and your willingness to test it is most commendable! I suggest leaving it on for a few days, listen only to it, then go back to your analog gear. No guarantee that you'll prefer the Panny, just saying that many owners of such expensive gear HAVE, as per the threads I posted above from the AVS Forum. |
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New member Username: PatrickbatemanMA Post Number: 5 Registered: Oct-05 | I am still waiting for mine to arrive so I can test it out. I am really surprised at Art's comments. One of the first I have read like that. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2031 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm glad that you are not offended as you are truly one of the folks I enjoy interacting with on this forum. I also understand your questions and do not take offense at all. I listened to the Panny at a store here in Albany called Audio Forte. It's manned by kids who know slightly less than the average bonehead at CC or BB. But because of that you can pretty much run the show, which I did. I was very pleased that they had a dedicated cd player at all as most places like that just use their DVD players. So you can imagine my delight when I saw that there only CD player was the Marantz CC4300. They had Ixos cables which are good budget cables. We listened to 2 of the Panny's, the one in the HT had been used daily for quite soome time and the one in the 2 channel system had been around longer but used less (still plenty to broken in). I'm a bit tired to explain in much more detail tonight but let suffice to say that I was blown away at how bad I thought it was. The Cabasse floorstanders (Jersey I think) were very efficient and lively. At first I kept wondering what was wrong and kept checking the wiring and nothing was wrong. The kids looked at me like I was out of my mind for being so picky about how I controlled the listening session but eventually they left me alone and went and sold car stereo's or something. I wanted to spend the requisite time and energy to give them a fair run. Again there was alot of detail but it was very inaccurate in texture, tone, and proportion. One of the first things that came to mind was the question "how much live music do the folks listen to who like this receiver". Voices just didn't sound anywhere near right. When guitars strummed you could hear the pick against the strings but again it was out of proportion with the rest of the recording. It's like all of the details are competing to be noticed. Again it is not bright just shiny. IMO just a very bad piece of audio gear. When I finally got around to listening to the HK's it was like night and day. BTW the Marantz CD player and the HK recievers go together very well. Anyway just one man's opinion and worth just about that. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2667 Registered: Mar-05 | Patrick, please post a detailed review on a separate thread---I'm not being territorial, just think you'd get more feedback since many people might see new postings on this old thread as just being more of the same (i.e. Edster raving on and on, heh). Art is IMHO definitely not your typical listener by any means, I'd say that he has VERY particular tastes and possibly even a pair of those fabled "golden ears"---says that he correctly detected different cables being used in his favorite local shop. |
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New member Username: PatrickbatemanMA Post Number: 7 Registered: Oct-05 | When I get an opinion Ill definately start something seperate. Im just picking info around here now |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2668 Registered: Mar-05 | > One of the first things that came to mind was the question "how much live music do the folks listen to who like this receiver". Voices just didn't sound anywhere near right. This may be a valid point since in all honesty I do not go to live concerts much anymore, not since my college years really. Of course bear in mind that the vast majority of concerts are amplified on ANALOG gear unless you are lucky enough to have Bob Dylan show up with an accoustic guitar and sit ten feet from you in some tiny little cafe somewhere. So using "live music" as a reference point may be not much different than using an extremely high quality analog system as a reference. (I have to confess here that I have never kept abreast of that "Do you listen" thread on this subject of live music.) > When guitars strummed you could hear the pick against the strings but again it was out of proportion with the rest of the recording. It's like all of the details are competing to be noticed. Again it is not bright just shiny This might very well be just a matter of what you are and are not used to. If you have listened to tons of music all your life and it was all amplified through analog gear in some way or another, wouldn't it make sense that you may simply be used to a different amount of detail, such that the far greater detail afforded by digital amplification might come across as simply overwhelming and out of whack? From the sounds of it I'd guesstimate that you have probably spent on average of what, 20-30 hours a week listening to music for most of your adult life? That's a heck of a lot of time for your ears to get very, very accustomed to a particular type of sound presentation. I don't mean this as an ageist insult, but it's possible that your ears might simply be very much set in their ways. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2032 Registered: Feb-05 | Remember Eddie I enjoy and attend live music of all types including classical. In other words I hear a lot of unamplified music..that is ..the real thing..and yes i'm quite used to it. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2672 Registered: Mar-05 | Good point, I hadn't considered classical concerts since those are unamplified. It does stand to reason though that recorded music by definition SHOULD sound more detailed than unamplified live music due to a microphone being in very close proximity to the voice and/or instrument, as opposed to a person sitting in the audience anywhere from 1st row to balcony seating, in which case things like detail is relative to distance and balance/timbre are relative to environmental accoustics. It seems to me that live music, amplified or not, is a very inexact reference point to say the least, since there are so many different possible factors that can come into play. Anyways it would be interesting if someone took a survey of Panny fans to see their median ages, average weekly music intake BEFORE buying the Panny, and how much exposure to live music they have had. Those might well be THE pivotal factors in predicting whether someone is more or less likely to prefer digital sound. |
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Anonymous | I might point out that despite Eddie not listening to large amounts of unamplified music, there are certain things that people innately know sound "correct", the human voice being one of them. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 676 Registered: May-05 | "It does stand to reason though that recorded music by definition SHOULD sound more detailed than unamplified live music due to a microphone being in very close proximity to the voice and/or instrument..." In a concert hall, in many ways the room acts as the amplifier. The "good" music halls have been designed to be as acoustically perfect as possible. In an arena full of people, you most likely wouldn't be able to hear too many instruments from the middle of the floor, let alone detail from a single one in a balcony. While I agree that their are a lot of other factors to consider in whether or not to use live music as your source to comparison, it still theoretically should be - I haven't followed up on "do you listen" either. Also take into account that Art - and just about everyone else - has heard live insturments amplified and unamplified, and knows what they sound like. What they SHOULD sound like is another arguement though. I've got an interesting question for you Ed. Have you tried the Panny with Vinyl? I, as many others believe that vinyl is a far superior medium to cd. I believe it has a far more 'natural' sound so to speak than cd. Just wondering if you or anyone else has heard vinyl through it. I think that would be the best test of it's abilities and short commings. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 677 Registered: May-05 | To clarify my previous post, by arena I meant a place where typical rock concerts, sports events, etc are held. Acoustically their is a huge difference between these and concert halls that have been designed almost exclusively for live music. Think Radio City Music Hall vs. Madison Square Garden. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6282 Registered: May-04 | " ... unless you are lucky enough to have Bob Dylan show up with an accoustic guitar and sit ten feet from you in some tiny little cafe somewhere." Bob ain't gonna work on acoustic guitar no more. No, Bob ain't gonna work in litle cafes no more. Well, Bob tries his best To be just like I am, But everybody wants you To be just like them. They sing while you slave and Bob just gets bored. Bob ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6283 Registered: May-04 | "It seems to me that live music, amplified or not, is a very inexact reference point to say the least, since there are so many different possible factors that can come into play." ?????? |
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Bronze Member Username: Paul98Post Number: 59 Registered: Oct-05 | There really is no way to tell which of those are more "correct." There is how they master it, what equipment they did it on, how it is transfered. I am going to have to try A/B one of my SACD/CD's once with cd going digital other time cd going analog. Then seeing if the sacd sounds much more natural. I have a feeling it's going to, it might remove some of the "digital" feeling from the music. I would like to find a recording that is intended to be used with a DPR. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2676 Registered: Mar-05 | Stu, unfortunately I sold all my vinyl about 15 years ago and have never gone near the stuff ever since. I'd be curious to hear the same track from an LP and then immediately after that from a CD on the same system sometime though. When my friend Marc comes back from his overseas vacation I may ask him to bring his turntable over and give it a spin. Or rather I should probably take my Panny over to his place...turntables as I remember don't take knocks too kindly, especially those pesky little needles! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2677 Registered: Mar-05 | heh Jan, nice Dylan impersonation there! btw I am fudging on this "live music as a reference point" question in large part because it seems just way too bottomless and probably unanwerable, and I am loath to reopen that can of worms. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 683 Registered: May-05 | Ed - When A/B'ing Vinyl and CD, make sure you keep the SPL in mind. Vinyl almost always needs a higher position on the volume knob to equal cd. This goes into the whole arguement of people almost always prefer gear with a slightly higher slp. Not that this is a vinyl vs cd experiment, but things should be kept as similar as possible. Also hopefully your friend has a quality tt and phono pre-amp. As with just about everything else, using a poor quality tt won't prove anything. In all of your scouring of message boards and Panny reviews, I would've thought for sure you'd find someone who listens to vinyl through the Panny. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2702 Registered: Mar-05 | > In all of your scouring of message boards and Panny reviews, I would've thought for sure you'd find someone who listens to vinyl through the Panny. I might have, but just skipped over it...I have probably read a good novel's worth of postings on the Panny by now. |
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