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New member Username: Photosnapper03Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-04 | Hi everyone, With the falling prices of DVD players, a query has found its way into my mind. Some mid-range (between $150 - $300) DVD players offer 24/96 DAC while high end CD players from Denon offer only 20bit DAC. Although it is appropriate to say that the quality of a player does not solely depend on its specifications alone, i cannot help but feel that i will get a better deal listening to my CDs on a DVD player. Comments anyone? Thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 477 Registered: Dec-03 | Ho, DVD-Audio players are just beginning to come into that price bracket. Seriously consider a DVD-Audio player. It has 24/192 audio DACs. So It will play DVD-Video discs and CDs just as well as any dedicated DVD-V or CD player. But it also plays DVD-Audio, which is in whole new category of its own for sheer quality of sound reproduction. |
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Bronze Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 32 Registered: Dec-03 | For $150-$300 is probably doesn't matter. Remember CD's are 16 bits. There is nothing that says a 24 bit DAC will do better than a 20 bit (or 18 and 16 for that matter). The big difference in sound quality is in the analog output stage. |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 72 Registered: Feb-04 | Yeah, what Ben said. I would just add that transports on cheap DVD players are cheap. Whatever the reasons, a good CD player will play CDs better than a good DVD player. You have to spend serious cash to get a DVD player that plays redbook CDs as well as a good dedicated player (NAD, Marantz or equivalent). Now, DVD-As are a whole different story. John A has been spreading the word on this format. I happen to be a believer. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 493 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, I could do with a hand! There isn't even a category "DVD-A" here you can go to. It cuts clean across the divisions "Audio" and "Home Theater". It is really "Audio", of course, but no-one seems to know, not even dealers. I say that, not having received my Aix Records DVD-A discs yet, which you tipped on another thread, and thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 74 Registered: Feb-04 | John A, You're doing such a great job spreading the word on DVD-A that I hardly believe you need a hand! On one of your other posts you mention that CD is mainly a convenience format that will be replaced by DVD-A/SACD for sound quality and MP-3, AAC for greater convenience. You expressed my very thought. I still buy vinyl records whenever I have the chance for the sound. I've bought CDs begrudgingly because I can play them in the car, on a walkman, or because its the only format available. But I've never been enamored with the sound of CDs. They sound brittle, hard-edged and cold to me. That I think is the biggest improvement of DVD-A. The discs I've heard have the warmth, space, and smoothness of vinyl records and improves on the dynamics and details of CDs. IMO DVD-A is a major improvement over CD. How is that as an endorsement of the format? |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 375 Registered: Dec-03 | The noise floor of a well-made DVD-A disc with a well made DVD-A machine can be up to 20-25 db's better than a cd player made to theoretical redbook specs and a cd disc that is digitally mastered and well made. The main thing I miss about LP's is the artwork and the larger print writing. Due to the nature of vinyl playback, the best performance you will hear is the first time you play the disc. Whether one can audibly discern the difference or not, it gets worse each time it is played with a greater noise floor and higher distortion. Now it may be possible that an LP that is mastered from an analogue tape sounds as good, or maybe slightly better than a cd made the same way. At least for the first 5 or 10 playings. It is physically impossible (and I mean due to the laws of physics) that a digitally mastered tape will perform and measure better on an LP. The CD copies the signal exactly as it was produced. The LP has to pass the signal through a D/A and then make an analogue copy. What may happen is that people like the higher noise level and less accurate sound--maybe it just comforts them psychologically---who knows? But it cannot replay as well. It is impossible, unless the cd player is an absolute dog (no offense to our canine friends). It is far easier to find a turntable, cartridge, needle, and an LP that performs far south of "its so-called redbook theoretical limit" than a cd and cd player. I still play my over 300 LP collection from years ago and while the LP performance isn't up to a well made cd performance (particularly after all these years), my brain has a correction device that allows me to enjoy the music anyway---along with the nostalgia factor and loving an album cover. I agree with some of the above sentiments that praise DVD-A. Besides having a better noise floor and resolution than cd's and LP's, it also can play back in both stereo and surround at these better theoretical levels. Too bad it doesn't cost the same as cd's. Maybe the price will get much closer on DVD-A's and surround SACD's to cd's. Of course, if the engineer does a poor job in making and miking, you'll just get a bad disc---just like getting a poorly miked and pressed LP, or a poorly miked and transferred CD. But DVD-A has the potential to make engineers shine if they do their jobs properly. It is as close to flawless a medium as we currently have---and I hope it gets better software and hardware support.........until the next flavor comes to town!!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 497 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, I am in complete agreement. I promised on another thread to check out the CD sound of my NAD T533. There is no immediately obvious difference between the CD sound using the analogue out and the digital out. If they are an improvement over the T532, it is also not immediate, and I would have to hook up both to compare, and probably listen very closely. What struck me, though, is how disappointing the CD sound was after DVD-A. I chose 1st movement of Mahler 1 (EMI CD; Rattle; CBSO; 1990) which always previously struck me as a great recording (it is 20-bit), ideal for testing. It is simply harder to identify which instrument is playing. With digital sound, there isn't really an adjective. It is just not all there. There is no offensive colouration. The absence of the noises associated with poorly-pressed or damaged LPs was probably the thing that made people think CD was an improvement in sound quality. Gregory, I hold you partly responsible for my religeous conversion! There are certainly psychological factors involved, but I have recently replayed some analogue-only LPs from my collection, after literally years of not bothering. I am convinced the sound is inherently better than on CD. I think a well-made LP will actually play 100s of times with no audible degradation if you take care with stylus condition, keep it clean, and so on. I suggest that what happened to the LP was partly quality control. In 1979 EMI recorded a Planets by Sir Adrian Boult. I think I took five new copies back; each one was mint, shrink-wrapped, and the disc was warped, scuffed, or the hole was not in the middle. In the end I gave up. I read years later that EMI had already begun experiments with digital recording, and that session was one of their first, with analogue and digital tape recorders taking the same signals in parallel, but the quality was not high enough for subsequent release from the digital master. You can find 1979 digital recordings "DDD", from e.g. Decca. I completely agree, LP was doomed from the moment the recording companies put "Digital recording" on LP sleeves. They may as well have flown a white flag. Curiously, hi-res digital would now be OK for the master. Probably 24/192 is above the threshold of perceptible difference with analogue, other things being equal (they rarely are). CD was a "convenience format" in the sense that there was, at that time, no way to get an hour of stereo on a 12 cm rotating optical disc at higher res than 16/44. One other thing I note with real DVD-A is that the discs I have, some of which I am quite familiar with in DTS, sound like much better microphone mixes in DVD-A. But the detail and clarity are what win my wholehearted approval of the DVD-A format. You can actually follow a single, say, viola, and certainly any wind instrument, and go on listening to that part right through a massive tutti, and out the other side. And the darned player is still in the same place! If there is a choir on top, you can identify individual voices. And all the nuances of real sound, real music, are there. The tapping noise on the finger-board in fast fiddle passages; brass (most obviously trumpets) making a transient cracking noise at the start of the first note after a long silence, during which the instrument has gone cold. I recall you are a cellist, Gregory. There is a big, modern, muscular "Four Seasons" in the Naxos catalogue. High-tension, metal strings; all that. But it's just brilliant. You can hear the bowing technique: where the band plays quietly by bowing closer to the bridge, making that sort of thin, scratchy noise, instead of just using less bow pressure. All of that was invisible to me even in the DTS version, which I previously thought was really great. That's the failure of CD: nothing usually sounds actually bad, but there is so much going on in the performance you will never hear. I thought The Four Seasons was about the most over-exposed music ever; I read somewhere it is the second-most-recorded (after Lennon & McCartney's "Yesterday"). Yet it is suddenly new, suddenly interesting again. I could go on and on. But won't! Thanks both, guys. I particularly owe Gregory a beer or something for arguing with me tenaciously on "What does 'DVD-Audio' mean here?". And winning. A crate of something fine would be better. If I had the wherewithall. All the best. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 376 Registered: Dec-03 | John A.-- Glad you are enjoying your DVD-A experience. It is wonderful when you have a well-recorded and engineered disc. I'll have to buy that Naxos recording--although I must have 2 recordings of Vivaldi's Four Season's already. It would be nice to find a good DVD-A recording of Vivaldi's Gloria and Christmas Concerto. I had played in performances of them so many times as a youngster and they are wonderful pieces of music. I've always loved many of the British performances on baroque and classical music. Simon Rattle and Neville Mariner are two of my fave conductors. I have generally found that a great LP recording that was transferred properly to cd was equally excellent. And it is hard to knock the portability of cd's--along with their excellent playback. What I always hated--and more so as I got older was the crappy and fragile plastic cd cases and as I started to need reading glasses at 44, it really made me miss album covers and the larger print on albums, from lyrics to whatever. Album cover art used to be a BIG THING! I always liked many British rock bands too. Where would modern rock music be without the Beatles, The Who, The Stones, Clapton, U2 and Van Morrison(so I include the Irish too), and numerous others. I always had a thing for The Incredible String Band many years back. They had some wonderful music and lyrics--along with a glorious hippy-trippy presentation. Thanks for the beer offer, but I just get enough satisfaction from knowing you are enjoying a new and wonderful format that makes listening a new and added pleasure. |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 79 Registered: Feb-04 | Gman and John A, Your posts above are the reasons why I enjoy visiting this forum. They are informative and make me really think about things I've taken for granted. I have no doubt that Gman is right in pointing out that CDs provide a more accurate reproduction of sound than LPs. I'm sure scientific measurements would bear that out. For me though, music listening has always been an aesthetic endeavor. I prefer the sound of LPs over CDs (given both are from good sources) in much the same way I might prefer a painting over a photograph of the same subject. Crazy I know. There is an entire tradition of lo-fi recording among garage bands going back to the sixties that eschews the slick production values of mainstream rock. The sound is gritty, the playing can get sloppy, but the emotional impact is usually greater than a beautifully recorded rock album played by accomplished studio musicians. Now that doesn't mean I would also like to listen to garage orchestras. For classical recordings, the accurate reproduction of sound is more critical to me. But even with classical music, I think a good LP possesses a certain air and ambience to the music that sounds more "real" to me than a CD. This may sound delusional, thougn the ear is not a microphone and the brain is not a microprocessor. DVD-A discs I've listened to convey the ambience and warmer tones of a good vinyl LP plus the clarity and detail that can't be achieved on vinyl. A good example is the Telarc recording of Mahler's Second (Mehta/Israel PO). Listening to this recording, one could believe one is in the concert hall. There is a certain ambience and air to the recording that creates a spatial reality. And the ability to distinguish the instruments during congested passages raises the listening experience to another level. I wish there were more recordings of Mahler on DVD-A since his music certainly would benefit from this format. As far as the Four Seasons... it was all boring stuff mainly due to overexposure, until I heard Nigel Kennedy's version. Outrageous dynamics, growling strings, aggressive Barock music, exciting stuff. Maybe this would be someone's idea of a garage orchestra. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 508 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, We are in complete agreement. Thanks. I, too, lament the passing of the LP sleeve. I have a CD transfer of Vivaldi's Gloria which is about the worst CD transfer I have: St. John's Choir Cambridge/Guest/Wren orchestra on Decca. Originally recorded 1982, I think. The reverberation of the hall is turned down to digital zero almost at every pause in the music, making you feel you have gone deaf, or have been submerged in water, or something. So much to say about music. It was all two-way, you know. The Beatles started out as a Liverpool "garage band" (as Two Cents puts it) doing covers of Chuck Berry. Clapton was the guitarist with John Mayall's Blues Breakers, purists about American blues. In return, the American contemporary at least equal to the Beatles in influence, I would say, is Bob Dylan, who got out of his Woody Guthrie phase into half-remembered and totally re-written Martin Carthy songs from English folk clubs, where he had fogotten the words and had to supply his own. They were brilliant, of course. I can quote reams by heart, and from it, too. I saw a CD of TISB "The 5,000 spirits or the layers of the onion" about a year ago. I'm down on nostalgia, but wish, now, I'd bought it. Know that one? If so, you must be older than I thought... Middle age is hearing the Archbishop of Canterbury choosing "The Hedgehog Song" on "Desert Island Discs". That probably does not translate. In another existence I am an "Early Music" purist, too, and that Four Seasons (London Mozart Players) breaks all the rules. It is still great. A cool feature of that Naxos DVD-A is that: (i) it really is in 24/96 5.1; (ii) it does the Four Seasons with ochestra at front, surround for ambience and reverb, then there are two extra concerti for violin with double string orchetra, one in front of you, one behind. I don't know whether it frightens the enemy, but it scares the sh__ out of me. BTW try the Naxos Shostakovitch Jazz Suites. This is another I would never have bought if it were not just something on DVD-A. I always feared that composer; forbidding, big heavy glasses, politics, "culture" with a capital "K". They are actually humorous, a total pi**-take on American dance orchestras of the time, which he obviously revered. Foxtrots, Tangos, the lot, with every cliché packed in: e.g. saxes, xylophones, glissando Trombones reminiscence of Ory's Creole Trombone. His "Tea for Two" is just hilarious. TC, Thanks, too. That Mahler 2 is very tempting. I shall look out for it. I am still awaiting the Aix DVD-As. Especially the demo and test disc! To get it free, I ordered the Beethoven 6/Respighi. Nigel Kennedy? No, sorry, we cannot agree on everything! I actually do not think I will ever buy another CD. Except if I see "The Layers of the Onion" again. "Oh, you know all the words, and you've sung all the notes, But you've never quite learned the song" he sang, "I can tell, by the sadness in your eyes, that you never quite learned the song". Sorry, guys, it's getting late! |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 381 Registered: Dec-03 | John A.-- I think I have the same crappy cd of The Four Seasons---uggh. This has caused me to listen to my LP until I can find a good cd, or even better, if a good DVD-A or SACD exists. A few years ago, NPR (National Public Radio, for those of you not in the US) published a book of great recordings and essential work that the classical music buff should consider. I need to find what I did with that tome. I am 50 years old, so I was in high school and college from 1966 through 1974. So I very much remember the birth of "The Guitar God's" in rock/blues music. From Clapton playing with John Mayall and then The Cream, then with Bonnie Bramlett, then Layla with Duane Allman and others, then his solo output. Jeff Beck, Led Zep's Jimmie Page, Jimi Hendrix from Seattle who had to play in London to get noticed, just to name a few. I remember when Rod Stewart sang for Jeff Beck on the Beckola album. Unbelievable. Songs like Plinth were great. There are probably two great Incredible String Band Albums with Layers of The Onion, probably the best and then The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter (which is famous for The Minotaur Song and A Very Cellular Song). Their first self-titled album, before they added their girlfriends, is just an excellent collection of folk, jug, blues, and Dylanesque influenced tunes. I don't mean to omit American bands and performers. I never tire of The Band and even though it is on DVD Video, The Last Waltz by Martin Scorcese, is an amazingly filmed and recorded piece of the final Band Concert with great guest stars at The Winterland in San Francisco in 1976. It is a must own to see the Band in incredible form and wonderful guest combination performances with Dr. John, a great Neil Young performance of "Helpless", an amazing Joni Mitchell performance that is rhythmically complex, Van Morrison at his best on "Caravan", closing with Bob Dylan. Certainly The Basement Tapes cd is a must own for any Band and Dylan buff. It is funny, brilliant, and touching. I could go on and on, but I will wait until a music and movie designated forum is open for business. Two Cents-- I always liked fun garage bands. Coming from NY City there were a lot of them. Who can forget the great cheesy organ on "96 Tears" by ? and The Mysterians? And of course, the music is always more important than having a pristine recording. I'd much rather listen to great music on a poor format or scratchy recording than mediocre music that is well recorded on a pristine format. But it is great to have the best of both worlds. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 513 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, "...CDs provide a more accurate reproduction of sound than LPs. I'm sure scientific measurements would bear that out". Gregory and I have sort of clashed swords over this a bit. I would argue that you make scientific measurements on sound to try to explain and describe what you hear. But no-one should lose confidence in their own experience. I am very down on the sort of quack science one finds in some audio circles, where people end up convinced they are hearing something, or missing something, that isn't there. OK, my current obsession again, as an example. Anyone who hasn't already: try DVD-A! For whatever technical reasons, you will hear more. Much more. I really mean that! When we agree, as we shall, we can get on with working out why. That's science, in my view. Gregory, Thanks so much. I'd forgotten those "String Band" titles! I was really taken with a young lady once, I think we were both about 17. You would have been about 13, young fellow.. Anyway, she came from a much more sophisticated kind of background than I, and I'm a sucker for that. Or was, then "What sort of music do you like?" she said. Near paralysis. "Um, er, well... I sort of like some folk. You know, John Renbourn, Bert Jansch, and, um, Pentangle..not to mention..." "I like John Mayall's Blue Breakers" she interrupted. "Oh, yes, they're great. In fact, I'm just now trying to learn to appreciate John Mayall". ""Learn to appreciate'?" she said, scornfully. The embarrassment. What a stupid thing to say. Doubt not the power of peer group approval! I have two Four Seasons I can recommend. Jean-Claude Malgoire and "La Grand Ecurie et la Chambre du Roy". About the first French period instrument band, I think. Amateurish, hardly in tune, brilliant. Every plucked instrument in the book - and some that aren't - instead of a jangly harpsichord continuo. CBS LP, I think. There is also a cool, efficient and in-tune Drottningholm Baroque Orchestra one on BIS (nice independent label that has, sadly, chosen the path to SACD, like Linn). Yes, The Band. They backed Dylan on Blonde on Blonde, fantastic record. I've been talking about it to my wife, who's a bit younger than me, since we got married, and will bash out "Sad Eye'd Lady of the Lowlands" without warning if presented with any sort of keyboard. Last year she bought "Blonde on Blonde" for me. You know what they sold her? The SACD.... The Basement Tapes and The Last Walz. Anything with Joni Mitchell as well as The Band and Bob Dylan must be worth owning. Great, thanks. I'll hunt 'em down, and smoke 'em out. Yes, I agree, this is getting off topic. But it's what's on 'em that counts, in the end. |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 87 Registered: Feb-04 | FYI, The Last Waltz is available on DVD-A. Been tempted to pick it up. Alas, Blonde on Blonde, is available only on SACD. I still have my worn vinyl copy which needs to be replaced. That's why I'm picking up a universal player. I'll hear for myself whether SACD sounds as good as DVD-A. Yes, trust your own ears and not measurements and so-called experts... |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 533 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, Thanks. But I understood Gregory to be saying The Last Waltz was a DVD-V? Blonde on Blonde. My wife did not know - and the dealer did not know - it was not a CD! Any offers...? It's SACD-only, two-channel only, from the time, just a few years ago, when Sony wanted us to go out and replace our CDs, like some of us had our LPs. Ben James posted this to me late last year: www.sundazed.com "Bob Dylan: Blonde On Blonde 180 Gram Gatefold Double LP Sundazed is proud to present the first-ever reissue of the original mono mix of this landmark double album, recorded in Nashville with Al Kooper, Robbie Robertson, and a cadre of top session cats. The result, later described by Dylan as "that thin, wild mercury sound," is a unique masterwork that sounds as vital today as when first released in 1966. This Sundazed edition is presented on 180 gram vinyl, from the absolute original analog mono masters." TC, when you can make a DVD-A/SACD A/B comparison, I'll be first in the queue to read anything you write. I have never seen one. It could be done with that Tallis recording. You would have to buy two discs. I'd lend you my DVD-A, but the postage would probably cover just buying it. For most labels, parallel SACD/DVD-A releases will probably be totally different mixes, but that is not likely for Coro, at least not deliberately. It is the only surround recording in their catalogue. |
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Bronze Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 44 Registered: Dec-03 | There is a Hybrid SACD of Blond on Blond (2 discs). It came out last year with the other Dylan hybrids. I don't believe it has a mono mix on it. If I were to by the Last Waltz, it would probably be the 4-CD Boxed Set due to all the extra material (24 songs added). My next choice would be the DVD-V for the cinematography. Do the DVD and DVD-A sound the same on this release, or are they different mixes? |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 91 Registered: Feb-04 | John A. I have a couple of Sundazed Byrds LPs and can attest to their quality. The company cares about quality sound on vinyl and putting out re-issues of classics as well as obscure material. The Last Waltz is available on DVD-V and DVD-A. Tough choice. Do you go for high-quality sound or the sight of Van Morrison kicking the air like a possessed Celtic Rockette? |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 92 Registered: Feb-04 | Ben, Based on what I've heard so far, DVD-A sounds significantly better than DVD-V. All those bytes on the DVD are dedicated to the audio signal instead of audio and video. We're talking loads of more detail on the DVD-A. It may be worth picking up both if you're a big fan of TLW. As for me, I think I would just well rent the DVD whenever I feel like seeing the movie. Thank god for Netflix. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 547 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, Thanks. Yes, tough choice. I'd probably go for the DVD-A. Probably the DVD-V is for the "music video" market. Music on video. Changing track slightly, there is a UK radio station Classic FM which is not bad if you like only small chunks of things and can put up with its relentless self-promotion, and obsession with ratings (listeners' choice of the top 10 etc etc) and celebrity. It sort of apes pop formats, I guess. Classic FM has a sister TV channel which has wall-to-wall "classical" music videos. Every one is like a circus act: string quartets playing in (yes "in") crashing surf; concerto soloists playing on remote mountain tops at sunset with no orchestra within sight, say 50 miles. When they film real orchestras, half the time the music is out of synch with the video, the other half you can tell it's all been done with Sonic Solutions or something, because no player visibly ever begins or ends a note, you just get a very brief close-up of a serious-looking person in mid bow-stroke or whatever. They do a nice line in wet, clinging swimsuits, but its not ideal attire for a lady cellist, I always think. I keep think about Ben's "artistic integrity".... Perhaps I'm missing the point?! |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 390 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, The Last Waltz is available on DVD-A,cd, and DVD-V. The reason I think the DVD-V is so important is that it is a movie with excellent sound. It is a great Scorcese documentary of a performance with many asides. It is great to both hear and see the interaction of the players and guest performers. And I do love Van The Man's kick's at the end of Caravan--plus his vocal performance and the jazzy interchange he has with guitarist (Robbie Robertson) of the Band. And there is a wonderful shot of Clapton playing electric blues and having his guitar strap snap and Robbie Robertson seeing it happen and seemlessly take over the solo playing. They end up playing an alternating guitar duel to amazing effect and humor. There are so many good musical and interviewing interludes in the movie that it is a must see for anyone that loves the best folk, rock, blues, New Orleans jazz mixture of American Music by some of its best performers. You could tell The Band is truly ON that night by Robertson's glance and smile over at singer/drummer Levon Helm, the only American in an otherwise Canadian Band. Amazingly there is no band that plays such strongly based American music. The performance of The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down is so damn good and poignant it sends chills up my spine. Rick Danko, the bass player, singing Stage Fright. It is just a great movie for anyone that is or isn't familiar with The Band. I've had people who were mostly unfamiliar with The Band see the movie and immediately go out and buy their complete discography afterwards, they were so moved. Probably the most recent great rock performance documentary (and it strictly is a performance) is Bruce Springsteen's Live IN NYC at Madison Square Garden. An amazing performance by him and the E-Street Band of various folk, rock, and other styles that he has written and that others have written. The marriage of Springsteen, The E-Street Band, and the audience is truly palpable and confirms to those that love rock what is best about it and to those that don't, what it can be when a performance is incendiary. By the way, I certainly remember Bert Jansch and Pentangle, along with Fairport Convention. It always seemed that Incredible String Band listeners had at least some of those albums too. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 550 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Gregory. After your post, I have decided to get "The Last Walz" in DVD-V! In that "Classic FM TV" I mentioned, the video is just an absurd and total distraction from the music. Obviously for "The Last Walz, it is part of it! Probably many people think this is solemn and boring, but I do believe the brain can only process one channel of information to its fullest extent, especially if there a lot going on, a lot to think about - "full bandwidth" if you will. If you are really listening to music, as music, you get much more from it with your eyes closed, even better with the light very low or in close to total darkness. I am sure you know this, but not so many people do. It is quite spooky how much more atmospheric music is, played loudly, in total darkeness. Listening requires concentration. Concentration requires minimal distraction. Visual distraction is especially difficult to filter out. I know that many people do not approach music at all in this way, and I am in a minority. It probably goes with hating background music. If the music is any good, I want to hear it so I can listen to it. If it is bad, I want switch it off. I don't understand what comes in between. In fact, deciding whether it is good or bad requires even more attention. Someone (Johnson?) once said that music while you eat is an insult, both to the cook and to the violinist.... Ah, Pentangle. Saw AND heard them once, in Bristol (see, I was normal, then). I could once do passable covers of Bert Jansch. John Renbourn was technically out of my reach, except for one or two numbers. "Fairport" were a cult I never quite got into. I didn't get my own record player until I was about 23; before that everything was either on the radio, or I listened on someone else's stuff. Thanks for all these tips and comments. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 392 Registered: Dec-03 | John A. No doubt, the experience of just listening to music by itself is different. But I don't know too many people that say--"Jeez, the music was great, but the people on stage performing it were a total distraction". Well done performance DVD-V's can get you closer to "the actually being there" experience. Obviously, a poorly recorded and engineered DVD-V won't. I certainly listen to music without other distratctions as often as I can--sometimes preparing a meal or other activity interferes. In second, I go to concerts and in third I watch/listen to DVD-V's with musical performance. The above is just music related. I certainly watch DVD-V movies more than I listen/watch to DVD-V music performances. Ideally I would own my own concert hall and have all my favorite performers at my beck and call--not to mention also having performances from those I don't know, but want to experience. Suprises and new experiences are sometimes the best of all. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 555 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, Yes, that's right. A live performance is the best of all. And you see that, as well as hear it. But then what about "lip-synching"? And where is the line between live performance and pointless video footage that gets in the way of the music? |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 393 Registered: Dec-03 | John A.-- Funny. I was discussing this with a friend the other day. Milli Vanilli was basically drummed out of the music biz for lipsynching during concerts and then everyone finding out they didn't even sing the originals. Now, almost every dance act singer or group is lipsynching to a background track that they either sang with enhancement previously, or hardly sang at all. They do 10 backflips, 5 splits, and can still belt out the tunes without breathing heavy. Yes I believe that--really I do :-) Is the audience ignorant or just star searching? Are these live performances viewed seriously or like a World Wrestling Federation performance? To me, there is a large demarcations between lipsynching video that doesn't even attempt to fake a performance, lipsynching during fake live performance videos, actually filmed live performances that are lipsynched, and actual performances (but with some re-recording and heavy after-production), and an actually filmed and well-recorded live performance-- AS IS. The lip-synching videos are very easy to spot, the lip-synching so-called live performances are fairly easy to spot (hard to cover-up the fact of sweating and breathing heavy while dancing all over the place an not hearing it in the voice), it can sometimes be difficult to spot the cleaning up and occassional re-recording in an otherwise live performance (but usually, the ultra perfection gives it away), and normally a well-recorded concert with nominal clean-up is hard to recognize and probably fine anyway. Every concert has some audio and visual glitches--and if you don't hear them you know something is going on. As a cellist with many friends in professional orchestra's and other ensembles, they tell me (and I notice) even their live classical, jazz, and other recorded performances often have spots re-recorded and otherwise electrically perfected. The above being said, The Last Waltz film captures the occassional feedback and glitches and still remains great. Maybe because of that. I think the powers that be are too concerned with perceived perfection, rather than a rousing performance with an occassional glitch, which shows the humanity of all. I can understand some noise reduction, or maybe some non-intrusive re-balancing---but the corrective surgery of re-recording and especially lipsynching is way beyond the pale. To be human is to make some mistakes. As long as you know what is going on I guess you can appreciate anything to various levels--if you like the music. Most of our LP's and cd's of rock and classical are produced out the "wazoo" and we still love playing them. But we recognize the multi-tracking and heavy production values. It becomes part of the performance and occassionally is most of the performance :-) |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 558 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, I agree totally. But the problem remains, what is "AS IS"? If you are there, you see it, and hear it, but from a point of view. In a recording, somone else selects your point of view for you, both for audio and video. Then the performers begin to play to the illusion, and not to the audience. And then the audience for the recording begins to want the experience of the illusion, not the illusion of the experience. There is a really great made-for-TV version of "Gulliver's Travels". Like the book, it is exactly about this distinction, between judging by what you experience yourself, versus judging by what consensus demands you should think. Plus sublime satire. Hi-fi, audio, home theater - all that - is about illusion, of course. But what is it we want the illusion OF? Something that happened, or something that we know didn't, but makes us feel good, for some reason? I'm in the school of thought "closest approach to the original sound" and all that, and I very much think you are, too. But we've all got to admit that people who don't give a damn about what it was like being there are not stupid, or deaf: they just want something else from the playing the discs they bought. This may well get flamed for being off-topic, but it connects to what went before, in my opinion. Your story of lipsynching reminds me vividly of the "Eurovision Song Contest". I am aware that I am trying to communicate across the Atlantic Ocean, and you probably have no concept of this annual extravaganza and or*y [original censored!] of the worst music in the Universe, paraded as an intra-European contest of national musical talent. I am so old I can remember (only just) Pearl Carr and Teddy Johnson winning for Britain. They are probably known, now, only to Monty Python polymaths (I think Mao Tse Tung named them, correctly, in "The Great Communists' Quiz Show", and scored a bonus for knowing the title of the song). Anyway, each country submits a song, and performers. Once upon a time, the composer/songwriter appeared first, took a bow, and conducted the light orchestra which provided the backing. It wasn't great art, but it was harmless enough, as entertainment. You might know some of the songs that won, long ago. Sandie Shaw's "Puppet on a String" was one - that might just have made it over the pond. "Artistic integrity" was automatic disqualification, but never mind. Today, the whole thing makes no pretence of being about any kind of performance at all. It is commercial sponsorship (there was even an ethnic Corsican folk instrument with "YAMAHA" on the side few years ago), lipsynching, a band "lipsynching" (by which I mean miming at playing instruments), fireworks, strobe lighting, and a foregone, rigged result. Winning country get to host it the next year. The result is chosen in theory by voting (now telephone voting which must rake in a bit) but in reality on grounds of sponsorship and political correctness. Last year, UK got "null points" for the first time in history, because of the Iraq war. The whole thing has zero to do with music, songwriting, artistry, or anything any rational person could begin to understand. The songs are uniformly appalling, and pretty well indistinguishable. Some of the acts can be mildly outrageous and amusing, but, if they are, they bomb. What's it all about? Any Europeans in the audience? Anyway, I'm going to get The Last Walz on DVD-V and check it, and, with it, myself. I look to America for popular culture. That's where it was invented. The best is very high quality stuff, the other end of the scale from the ESC. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 395 Registered: Dec-03 | John A. Of course we all view the world and live performances from our own vantage points and our own "filters". That is the human condition and unescapable. And in a visual recording you will get the cameraman's perspective, the directors perspective, and the audio engineers miking and mixing perspective (along with the producers), all finally being "MIXED" down by the viewer---who will view it with his/her own subjectivity. This is something we cannot escape unless we cease to watch or listen to recorded music, or just plain cease to exist. Our brains will also fill in subjective impressions on their own. It is hard-wired into humans. We are meaning making machines and through millenia of evolution the brain makes quick assumptions on almost everything (originally for quick survival strategy). The best we can do is operate in the limitations we all have. No doubt that my own live perspective is the most accurate "I" can get. That doesn't mean we can't get great enjoyment from our "filtering" of others vantage points. We do. How much I enjoy it seems to vary on my subjective view of the quality of the performance (however filtered) and my ability--along with the director's, the performers, and the engineers ability to capture me in a sense of collaboration. If they fail to do that for me---they lose me. Probably why I dislike most lipsynching and fake wrestling. Not that I enjoy real wrestling either :-) I may enjoy the dancing of a lipsynching video, but I am rarely able to suspend disbelief enough to totally get immersed. That is also what often makes the difference to us in how much we like a movie---how immersed we are and how much we feel in collaboration. With The Last Waltz it is about as good as that medium gets for me. That is similarly what makes great live and taped performances for us individually--- Our degree of appreciation and collaboration with the performance and performers---whether live or Memorex:-) |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 560 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, I think you are completely correct, and thank you for taking the time and the thought to explain your position. I sort of feel I may wish to quote you, when next we get into the question of test measurements, and their relevance to subjective experience of sound quality. It is not a trivial issue! However, we may, inadvertently, now be some steps removed from "CD Player or DVD Player", at least from the vantage point of many contributors here, some of whom will have filtered out the last few posts as "irrelevant". They may wish to return, and I shall not mind at all if the next post begins with "This is geeting off topic". However, please forgive my finishing this reply by setting the record straight, as far as possible, on a serious mistake in my previous post, and one to which you were so generous as not to draw attention. It was Karl Marx who correctly named the winners of the 1957 Eurovision Song Contest; Mao Tse Tung merely scored a bonus point, for knowing the title of the winning song. |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 76 Registered: Dec-03 | now come on guys you are way off topic "LoL" and well to stay off, has anyone ever heard of a recording called "not for geeks" i use to work at a recording studio and we made that on cassete i was wondering if anyone had ever seen it on cd? and where someone might find it. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 566 Registered: Dec-03 | Nice one, Kegger! |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 396 Registered: Dec-03 | True enough, we have wandered off topic. But then again, the quality of the cd recording is vastly more important than a miniscule resoluion difference on dvd player cd performance and any cd player performance, unless there is something drastically wrong with either player. Great recording quality, from LP's, cd's, DVD's, to SACD's is mostly reliant on the disc. Most average players are far better than the disc. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 567 Registered: Dec-03 | Just a brief comment back to Gregory and anyone reading that. Surely the perfect match of hi-fi audio with video is the Broadway Musical. For example, two discs we have which I can recommend to anyone. Meredith Willson's The Music Man. "Feelgood" with a capital "F". The recent, extended DVD-V of the original film production of Leonard Bernstein's West Side Story. Searing. No modern studio would touch that. Someone, please hurry up and do Porgy and Bess. There is a made-for-TV version by The New York City Opera, but it's only in stereo. Where "musical" ends and "opera" starts is another of those questions, but seriously off-topic. Again. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 568 Registered: Dec-03 | "Great recording quality, ... is mostly reliant on the disc". Yes, and that means the recording engineers. We are all in their hands, in the end. No equipment in the world can compensate if those guys screw up. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 397 Registered: Dec-03 | Musicals make no pretense for being real--you either accept them on their terms or you don't. Just like most non-documentaries. Sure, The Music Man is lot's of fun and West Side Story is a great re-working of Romeo and Juliet in 50's NYC. What musical has a hotter beginning than West Side Story, with the amazing Jerome Robbins choreography. The Leonard Bernstein music and Steven Sondheim libretto are hard to beat too. To compare an Andrew Lloyd Weber musical with any of these just doesn't work. They are not close on almost any level. And I certainly agree that from movies to music we are mostly at the mercy of directors, cameramen, performers, and engineer's, as far as clarity and quality of music and vision is concerned. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 570 Registered: Dec-03 | Agreed on all points. You know a musical is illusion before you start. That is "art", I guess, and illustrates my earlier point. I am with you on Lloyd Weber. He doesn't hold a candle to Leonard Bernstein. Nor Tim Rice to Steven Sondheim. The Music Man was a class act. I don't think Willson did anything else. The all-conquering Paul McCartney ballads started with a Beatles take on a song from The Music Man; that's influence. I noticed recently that My Fair Lady is set at exactly the same time, about 1912, as the Music Man. They both have a small, throw-away, suffragette sub-plots, too. I can't give you a British musical that comes near any of those. The best I can think of is Lionel Bart's Oliver. That was a one-off too, I think. It's got some nice tunes, but way too much sugar. West Side Story, by comparison, is a total masterpiece. BTW the 5.1 they've made out of a 1961 recording is really impressive. The extended DVD version is complete, authentic - "Artistic integrity" again. It even has guidelines for when to dim the lights, and includes the full, unabridged intermission. Cool. |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 96 Registered: Feb-04 | Gentlemen, These are all great recommendations and reasons for a separate topic on this message for software (i.e., movies and music). I was planning on picking up the new remaster of West Side Story. It's good to read that a reliable source as John A recommending it. The remaster of Singin' in the Rain is supposed to be special too. If they remaster An American in Paris, I'll be a happy man. Gershwin-Sondheim-Kelly is another all-time great combo. On a previous post, Gman recommended Springsteen Live in NYC. I would add this is The Best rock video I've ever seen and heard. Great performance, great sound quality (in effective but not overdone surround sound), and great picture quality. It's a straightforward concert video so it lacks the directorial or editing touches of Scorsese's The Last Waltz. Springsteen raises the idea of a rock concert to one of a rock and roll revival. There are moments that approach religious ecstasy on this disc. Highly recommended for anyone even mildly interested in Springsteen. |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 78 Registered: Dec-03 | hey guys whether you realize or not this post is starting to sound , well to put it frankly, don't hit me though, umm a little unMANly. do we have any media suggestions that might put hair on your chest. no flaming intended, but maybe something heavier |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 127 Registered: Feb-04 | Keggar What's unmanly. Everyone has either different or much varied musical tastes. Some of the classics have had a great influence on music direction and show that quality was a prerequisite for entertainment. Not all mentioned is for my taste either but if I were to criticize, I would't have the audacity to add "no flaming intended" when I was indeed flaming someone. Maybe a musical education would help broaden your outlook. Now repeat after me: "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain". You da man, Kleggar! |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 399 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger--point taken. But what kind of hairy-chested and washboard pecs media floats your boat? Or do you just mean the coversation is missing a beer flatulence (I used the other word and was denied sending)? Are you missing Motorhead and OG Gangsta Rap and want a review and social commentary of "Triple X" (the site also won't accept 3 X's in a row) and "The Fast and The Furious"? Vin Diesel and his contribution to cinema? |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 128 Registered: Feb-04 | Oh sorry - my mistake - you da man, Klegger! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 129 Registered: Feb-04 | Gman Hear! Hear! |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 98 Registered: Feb-04 | KEGGER Don't know if you're serious or joking. I guess we could all take on the macho posturing of your fellow Michiganian, Eminem, and feel like a real man by rapping about throwing our girlfriend in the trunk and taking her for a ride. Or we could get over our masculine insecurities and say without any self-consciousness that Leonard Bernstein or George Gershwin created some beautiful music. I find it refreshing that there are people on this board that like Iron Butterfly AND Rogers and Hammerstein. It tells me that they march to the beat of their own drummer and aren't victims of the consumerist-media machine. If you were joking Kegger. Hahaha. I'll laugh along with you, just like I can laugh at and enjoy Eminem's songs as long as I don't take them seriously. C'mon join in. Tell us what you think is the sh*t... Kid Rock, White Stripes, MC5, the Von Bondies, Madonna, Barbra Streisand? |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 79 Registered: Dec-03 | sorry just got up from my nap!! yes it was meant jokingly!! as i was writing it i new i would get flammed. its all good. but cmon guys picture this there say 5 guys at work sitting around a table discussing musicals. you gotta admit it sounds a little different. but yes again it was not meant malicously and rantz if it upset you again i opoligize. but no MOST of what you guys have mentioned does not appeal to me.(but that's allright) and yes greg i am one of those beer swilling, hairy chested, flatulence guys. but i did mean to stir up some other media suggestions. |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 80 Registered: Dec-03 | again you guys seem to know quite a bit about the media out there and i don't. so to be honest i was joking and yes i knew i was going to get flammed! as for music taste i listen to quite a wide range but i am not really into musicals. speaking of flaming i have the queen we will rock you dvd it's pretty good. just to name a few of what i listen to. steely dan,tracy chapman,robin trower,missing persons,al stewart,joe jackson,ac/dc,the cult, the baby's,b52's,little river band,styx that was just a few i was recently listening to. i also enjoy. old van halen,old stones,old areosmith and would try quite a lot of media someone would say "this recording sounds incredable i think you would enjoy how well the instruements sound on this." just so you know were i am coming from thats all. i injest what you guys mention and take to heart that you feel so much passion into what you play and may investigate some of what you enjoy so i did not mean. stop talking about what you like and give me mine because i may actually learn something from you guys that is very valuable. like i said i was trying sway some talk towards other alternative media also. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 573 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, Great input. Thanks. Look, you can't complain musicals are unmanly and then recommend "Queen".... Jeez. If you've never seen West Side Story, really go and check it out. Just rent it or something. For a start, it's all about your country. And anyone else's, deep down. Would you be man enough to go to the rumble with the Sharks or the Jets? With a blade? The real man there was Tony. He had more guts than any. Maria knew that. As Gregory said, underneath all that is Shakespeare. But don't be put off. It's strong stuff. It was strong stuff for Shakepeare's audience, too. They f*rted and drank beer, just like us. Funny thing is, they'd get thrown out of the Met. It may be off topic, but I'm learning a load of stuff here, from all you guys. Thanks. Turns out my wife's read all about the Last Walz in some movie magazine, so it's a must, now. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 574 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz: By George, he's got it. He's really got it. |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 81 Registered: Dec-03 | just because something is good or even excellent does not mean it is for everyone. i have seen musicals and read shakespeare but for the most part it does not appeal to me.i don't really enjoy reading books,going to plays or watching musicals. i am an elect. eng. by trade and am fascinated with electronics so most of my time is spent repairing or building electronics/speakers and other such hobbies that take up most of my time. i peruse these forums to gather knowledge on electronics/trends. some may call me uneducated or narrowminded as soon as i make a joke or poke fun at. not everyone enjoys the classics, just as many shun the new. anyways i just felt for some reason i needed to clear the air as to some people feeling that i may need to open up and expand my horizons. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 576 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, I agree. If it sounded like I was preaching, I apologize. It was not my intention. "One man's meat is another man's poison". But I just want to explain a bit where I'm coming from, too. What counts as "good or even excellent", anyway? That's the problem, in electronics, music, anything. In anything you can name, there's so much dross out there with a big label saying "Excellent" and ten times the price tag it deserves, as a consequence. There was a big debate on one thread a few weeks ago about "THX" certification. I don't want to start that again, but you will see my point. How much better is anything just for having any particular label attached? Then there are the people who think they are so goddam wonderful that "excellent" means anything they happen to do or like themselves. You've just got to filter that out, it's noise. But it's sometimes difficult knowing who they are. Then there is the genuine article, something fine, and it goes unnoticed, or people subscribe to inferior things, instead, because they don't know, or believe what they read on the can. And, maybe we can agree on this, just because the "I am wonderful" people like something doesn't mean it is automatically bad. All I'm gunning for is misleading labels, and I'm only very rarely sure I know them when I see them. So if I go on about things, that's not to say I think there's any reason why anyone should be interested. It's just I think some people might have got the wrong idea, and I try to make the case. For example, in my opinion West Side Story is gold, the Eurovision Song Contest is total cr•p. Anyone is entitled to think the opposite, and anyone is entitled not to care either way. But if we disagree about something, maybe we can learn from each other. |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 82 Registered: Dec-03 | very well said john. like i said to start with and you hinted towards it. it was me poking fun at all the musicals that were posted was just having some fun. it just seams in life though anytime someone says they don't enjoy shakespeare or a good play, that there somehow inferior or not well bread. or if you havn't read a good book lately that you are not very smart. some people truly enjoy those things and that is great but just because someone else dosn't agree with you that is fine also. there is so many things in this world to keep us busy why not pick the ones we enjoy. and if there is time left over dabble in what we don't know. just keep life simple and you will enjoy it more! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 130 Registered: Feb-04 | John A When the wind comes sweeping down the plain, we'll now know not to blame Kegger after all. Kegger No problem, we can know see where you're at. I was defending opinions from people here that I have come to respect whether I agree or not with them. And they sound hairy chested to me. Remember, Ian Fleming's James Bond did not have a hairy chest. Welcome! |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 83 Registered: Dec-03 | no problem rantz i brought it upon myself. like i said i knew when i wrote it there would be the wrath that would come. i wrote it pretty quick but tried to not make it sound to bad that's why i through some humor in. |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 99 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, Good to hear you straighten things out. I like to listen to some rock albums when I'm not watching musicals while sipping my favorite herbal tea ; ) In fact I'd like to get a Steely Dan album one of these days. There's a relatively good selection of Steely Dan/Donald Fagen albums on DVD-A. Since you list them as one of your favorites, do you care to recommend any of their albums? |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 578 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, Thanks. I appreciate that. "Keep life simple and you will enjoy it more". That's wisdom. Wish it was easy to do! |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 84 Registered: Dec-03 | some of my favorite steely dan albums would be. THE ROYAL SCAM AJA GAUCHO (i know this one is on 5.1 sacd) plus there is at least 4greatest hits/compalation one that i have been listening to lately would be alive in america very well recorded live album! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 132 Registered: Feb-04 | Apart from their greatest hits cd I recently purchased "Two Against Nature" on DVD and CD and their CD "Everything Must Go" All excellent recordings. I'll say it again - can't wait for DVD-A/SACD. Yesteday I bought John Mayall's 70th Birthday Concert recorded live in Liverpool on DVD. Wife and I cranked it up on DTS and were blown away for 130 mins. Eric Clapton and Mick Taylor were almost upstaged by the current Bluesbreaker lead guitarist (name escapes me for now). Very well produced and a real treat. The above and others like Van Morrison seem to be like good wine . . . with age. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 778 Registered: Dec-03 | Everyone here who recommended "The Last Walz": Thank you! Really, really good. And something I would never have come across without your recommendations. I am going to post this one several threads to make sure it is not missed. What a fantastic concert. What fantastic band. Esp. Gregory, April 08. I agree! Now I have seen and heard it, I could write much more. |