Best cables for amp and pre-pro
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ABC Unregistered guest | Looking for best soundng cables between my adcom 200w x 3 and my marantz av9000 pre-pro? What would be your choice. Cables for dvd and cd all sound the same to me . what about amp and pre-pro.does it make a difference their or not? Would like your opinion on this please I have monster 400mkII betwwen the two right now. Would better cable make it sound better or not? Thank You |
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ABC Unregistered guest | anybody out there |
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Bronze Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 36 Registered: Dec-03 | The signal between your pre and amp is the same as between your cd and pre. If you don't notice a difference there, you may not notice anything by replacing the monster. Go to a dealer and see if you can demo a solid core cable (like Audioquest or Tara)and maybe a coaxial design (like Straight Wire or Wireworld). |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 75 Registered: Dec-03 | ABC, Opening up a discussion on interconnects, speaker cable, etc. on this board, would be like throwing open the gates of hell. Care to go there? |
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ABC Unregistered guest | Ben, Thanks for your reply I'll stick with what I got. No need to waist money. Rick. Thank You Care to go there? NOOOOOOOO thank you Thanks. Have a good day |
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Silver Member Username: Disco_stanMinnesota Post Number: 113 Registered: Dec-03 | One question, Have you asked a salesman at a speciality audio store if you could switch the cables they are using with your typical RCA cables to see if you can hear the differences? Would they alow that? |
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ABC Unregistered guest | Matt, I wish I could. I live 120 miles from any store that sells audio cables. Thats just to far to drive for cables only. Thanks for the repy |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 524 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, They have been thrown open, already. Cables. It is not for the squeamish. I notice ABC has posted exactly the same question there. The short and simple answer to "Looking for best soundng cables" is that there aren't any. Cables don't have sounds. They are electrical conductors, and are all the same. Phasing is all there is, really, and there are only two options: in-phase, and out-of-phase. After that, keep 'em short, with well-made plugs. And, of course, screened, if interconnects, especially co-ax. A good rule of thumb is, if cables have arrows printed on the insulation, to indicate the direction of the "signal", then they cost too much. |
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Bronze Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 40 Registered: Dec-03 | John, All cables do not conduct audio (or video) signals the same. You should know better than that. If all cables were the same, you would be telling ABC to use whatever came in the box with his components. Only ABC can determine if a particular cable will enhance (or degrade) his listening experience. The best rule of thumb is to set a budget, listen, and decide for yourself. ABC, if you are really curious, try an on-line dealer like Audio Advisor. I believe they have 30 day return policies. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 530 Registered: Dec-03 | Ben, Thanks. I am not telling ABC to do anything. Personally, I can, and do, use cables that came in the box. Then some others for connections the box didn't cater for. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 80 Registered: Dec-03 | Ben, Absolutely correct.....all cables do not sound the same. The point is a cable should not be used as a TONE CONTROL. I'm not really going to get into this. I do not believe in spending stupid money on interconnects and speaker cable, but I'm not going to wire together $4000 components with Radio Shack gear either. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 81 Registered: Dec-03 | JohnA., I've already walked through the gates in past weeks. Would not care to revisit with the whole New York City Fire Dept, and I mean that with all due respect to them-hero's all. |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 59 Registered: Apr-04 | Why it surprises me that Dr.Barnes Capt.Coat Hangers were not recommended hmmmm. Hell Yeah! |
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New member Username: Sun_kingLeeds, West Yorkshire UK Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-04 | John A: "A good rule of thumb is if cables have arrows printed on the insulation, to indicate the direction of the "signal", then they cost too much." - NICE ONE!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 130 Registered: Dec-03 | Lorenzo, I thought I made your point for you. I thought all of this was laid to rest. Look back on any of my posts to you, have I ever hung a name or tag on you? NO! Coathangers? I stated I use Kimber PBJ. Do you have a problem with Ray Kimber too? If you have a sense of humor, you have to admit the coathanger one liner was funny. NO! Let's call a cease fire here, and move on. |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 62 Registered: Apr-04 | Rick, I apologize  Peace bro, tone controls are truly best left to the the preamps and I sure know that if a preamp employs one it is of very low esteem in my books.Yes the coat hanger thingy kept me rofl all night! LoL |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 131 Registered: Dec-03 | Lorenzo, Me too...and accepted. P.S. There are many tweaks we probably agree on. See you around the forum. |
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Unregistered guest | I have several sets of hand made 'BRUSON' cables with signal direction arrows on them........... And yes!!!! You can hear the difference |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 73 Registered: Apr-04 | Hmmm how can we help if all cables seem to sound the same to you? Which leads me to ask why you are looking for recommendation on which one to use.However regardless of what recommendation you may have here you're God given faculties on hearing will ultimately decide which ones would be good for you. A good part of this hobby we cherish is the joy of discovery. Take time to conduct actual listening tests on the gear. If you find out an el cheapo cable will suffice for you then there is no reason whatsover to consider a more exotic one if in your evaluation you hear no difference at all. So many instances when I go to check out a cable I ask the eager retail agent to shut up from making any comments while conducting the demo. I simply didn't need to hear what he had to say but I desperately wanted to hear what the cable was capable of doing in moving me with the sound I was listening too. Bring familiar recordings which you can use as a benchmark guide when you listen. The more often you do this the more skilled and tuned in you will be in the area of determination. |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 74 Registered: Apr-04 | And oh by the way if there are no best sounding cables around how do you know the bad ones? Good and Evil should co exist in this world. Maybe some are just seduced to be on the dark side of opinions eh? |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 75 Registered: Apr-04 | Let me share another insight. For some uncanny reason I hooked my reference Micro Utopia BE loudspeakers with Ecosse reference cables. The sound I got was nothing short of spectacular! However using all the same associated gear I switched speaker cables to the Cardas Golden Reference. The sound was unbelievable the difference was night and day in warmth,dynamics and involvement in the recording. I couldn't believe it so I went back and switched the Ecosse cables again. Immediately a vacumm in sound quality became very evident. From that day on I established a reference standard for myself as far as the speaker cables were concerned. I applied the same process and concept with the rest of my gear and very happy to say I have arrived. You must set the standards for yourself as well not necessarily in the same fashion as I did. The most important factor in audiophilia is to connect with the music after which nothing else matters.Believe it or not "WE ARE ALL WIRED FOR SOUND". |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 76 Registered: Apr-04 | To dare say all cables are alike is similar to John A being caught by his wife kissing a street hooker. And being confronted say " Yeah you caught me sweetie..but but I was thinking of you!" |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 161 Registered: Feb-04 | Lorenzo I relent on my having my final word to you. You are probably an expert on street h--kers because you talk like a p-mp! But let's give credit when credit is due: LORENZO YOUR ARE A LEGEND IN YOUR OWN MIND! |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 79 Registered: Apr-04 | The pharisee lives! you were better off in the tomb pal but am I glad to have stirred you in you slumber LOL! |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 80 Registered: Apr-04 | I may be but my mind is unlike your's uni directional LOL! You must be connecting your speaker wires all on the negative posts hahahaha! |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 81 Registered: Apr-04 | Somehow i get a strange feeling who the "wife" was in my story! ROFLMAO!!!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 82 Registered: Apr-04 | C'mon you two got a thing going do you? It's ok nowadays for you two to be involved we won't even mind really. LOL! |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 83 Registered: Apr-04 | btw I read your sweet ode for your dearie pal LMAO!!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 163 Registered: Feb-04 | https://www.ecoustics.com/bbs/forumterms.htm READ IT! |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 85 Registered: Apr-04 | Hey Audio Pharisee, Thank you for confirming that I would have the capacity to read and understand the Law in this forum. If by any chance you have been slighted then be my guest to request whoever to have the comment removed from the thread. LOL only thing is you would be admitting to the veracity on your involvement in the alledged controversy. You really are narrow minded as to think you are an IRC cop in this forum . Why others I see here contribute much much more info to budding audiophiles than you do,they are not even registered members. Your forte is to complement your particular friend.You have disredited yourself for so long by your amourous praise of misleading and self serving advise from your boy friend hehehe. Keep sluggin` man I am definitely up to it! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 164 Registered: Feb-04 | Lorenzo My guess is that you are a little fellow with a big chip on your shoulder. I have learnt a lot from decent and intelligent individuals on this forum and the only advice I offer is from what I know (which I certainly admit is not much) or have learnt from others. The problem with you as I see it, is that you cannot think logically or understand what people say here because of your pent up anger. IMO you are one of these people who shoot of your mouth before you think. I couldn't care less what you say about me but when you degrade others for no apparent reason then I feel the need to have a say. You can make the decision to treat people on this forum with a little respect or just go on your merry way and fill the pages with crap and give yourself a ratbag reputation. It's your call! It's obvious you have a degree of knowledge, but you should offer your advice or opinions with a little respect instead of forcing them down people throats. Cheers! |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 86 Registered: Apr-04 | Keep Guessing buddy you should be better off making sound advise in this forum relevant to the thread than merely dwelling on how to give me a whipping. My methods may be too candid or gore for you but I expected you to go beyond the remarks and look at the substance of points being given. Obviously you have been offended and since you declared so allow me to apologise to you for making such vivid remarks. If John A would so say I offended him then this apology goes to him as well. This is the beauty of OPEN forum anything goes good or bad cute and ugly. However remember when you hold back punches in the ring you'll wind up in the canvass. Peace |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 648 Registered: Dec-03 | All here, "look at the substance of points being given". (lorenzo, previous post). Sadly, there is none. If you ask for it, no matter how politely, you get abuse. The same pattern of behaviour can be seen on Newbie here and with same result: an otherwise very interesting thread becomes difficult to follow, and everyone's contribution is devalued. lorenzo, You need help. That's not a return shot. It is my opinion, sincerely held. To owe it to yourself and others to seek medical attention. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 413 Registered: Dec-03 | Noel Lee of Monster Cable is the father of tweako cables over 20 years ago. Many have copied his business plan since. He was the originator of the notion that you could make a lot of money in audiophile circles without a production facility, without engineers, without technological innovation--just with great marketting and salesmanship. Great business plan--create a market of audiophiles (who are an unusually insecure bunch to begin with, particularly concerning their kit), mix in a bunch of swell marketting hype proclaiming that sonic nirvana is at hand, open an account with a wire manufacturer (such as Belden, Camare, Alpha, etc.)and specify certain twists, braids, etc. and tell them to insulate it with your brand name, give the audio salon and other retailers a ton of plus points (monetary bonuses) and you become a rich man. He is even noted for taking his salespeople and certain store owners that move a ton of his product on very nice vacations. Good product that doesn't involve using a ton of snake oil would sell itself and not require this behavior. But Mr. Lee is smart--he knows it is great for business and the retailers know that they make far higher a percentage of money on audio accessories than they do on receivers, amplifiers, etc. For many retailers it is the wire, cables, and tweako audio accessories that keep them afloat. On the positive side, Mr. Lee also sells a lot of reasonably priced high quality wire, cable, and connecting hardware to the audio world at a fair price. So Noel Lee isn't totally a dark lord. But he and his fellow conspirers certainly don't want any truth to get out--and it won't on any significant level. All the vested interests, along with their innocent true believers, are playing in the same sand box. I love reading M.I.T. wire and cable blurbs and their totally misleading mathematics and pseudo-science (made to impress and mislead those with no engineering or practical physics background) that has nothing to do with the performance of anyone's home kit. None of these wire re-packagers ever submit their wires or cables for third party measurements and double blind listening tests for any kind of scientific and realistic evaluations of their claims. However, there have been a number of double blind tests by audio engineers (various AES groups in Boston, NYC, and LA have purchased and tested) and others that have noticed slight differences in some measurements on low-priced and high-priced goods. But there was rarely any correlation between price and measurements and there was no audible sonic difference on any, except for diameters too small for a load, which is easily and cheaply remedied. Fact is, on 3 foot interconnects, unless you buy total garbage (and these exist in cheap and expensive goods), you will not be able to tell the difference. What happens in non-blind testing is that people hear what they want to hear and notice what they are told is great. Most people have a need to justify to themselves and others their expensive purchases and often lash out at others who do not hear the properties that only exist in their mind's eye. This is a religious high end audio belief system that relies on marketting BS, Group Think, and ludicrous Stereophile and Absolute Sound reviews that perpetuate the Authority Belief System( they don't say why it sounds better or even back that up with any measurements of any causation of the effect)---but you can notice lots of very expensive ad pages of numbingly high-priced cables and wires. But if buying expensive wire and cable makes you feel better and doesn't adversely effect your budget, knock yourself out. Afterall, how can you show your face to all those meetings of the high end without saying what ludicrously high-priced wonderful wire and cables you have? |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 652 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, Superb. That's just how it is. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 170 Registered: Feb-04 | In one electrical superstore here on the coast, if you want quick service, just stand in front of the high end cable rack! I was after a Toslink to Toslink and was looking at the el cheapo to reasonably priced side of the stand for about 10 minutes with no service in sight. I saw one that seemed okay for about $35 then moved to the other side. Was almost attacked. I said I was after the said cable and was instantly directed to a Monster version costing $170 and given a great spiel. I grabbed the $35 cable and compared. Saw no difference and took the $35 cable (can't recall brand) and handed it to the miffed salesman. I think the moral to the story is obvious. BTW - the $35 cable was just as pretty! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 656 Registered: Dec-03 | Great, My Rantz. "High end" optical cable is particularly insane. What goes in is pulses of light. All that matters is that they come out of the other end. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 416 Registered: Dec-03 | How come no one buys super expensive computer digital interconnects, but will buy posh digital interconnects? DVD players, AV receivers and AV preamps, and CD players are basically digital computers and have the same type boards--often identical. There is the myth in high end audio that the "1's" and "0's" are somehow different--that they carry sound waves or that one can alter the information. You can't. It either goes through the line or it doesn't. And you'll be the first to know if it doesn't on your computer or other AV device. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 122 Registered: Dec-03 | i thought we said we were not going to have another cable discussion. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 123 Registered: Dec-03 | everytime one of these things come up it never goes well. they should be banned! lol |
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Bronze Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 51 Registered: Dec-03 | There may be impedance and rf issues that can alter the timing of a digital signal through coax. Many cheap digital and video cables are not 75ohm. To me, a company (like Radio Shack, for example) that sells video and digital cables that are not 75ohm are worse than a company like MIT's marketing claims. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 421 Registered: Dec-03 | I would not be suprised if Radio Shack buys interconnects and wire from the same company that MIT buys from. It is just jacketted differently. Certainly, if MIT gives no measurement statement, no ABX testing, then there is zero reason to think it is any better than anything else. Why would you believe MIT marketting claims without any proof or science behind them? If I owned a wire company that had wire and cables with superior measurements and that I found through in-house double blind ABX testing were noticeably better than others, I would certainly send them to third party laboratories that do testing and have them measure and ABX test the wire against others. If it measures better and it sounds better, as verified by a double blind ABX test, I would shout it from the rooftops and take out ads showing this in all the trade magazines and steal the market share from numerous other wire companies. It would make me and all my retailers far wealthier. MIT, Cardas, Kimber, etc. are certainly rich enough to send wire to interested third parties to do these measurements and inexpensive double blind tests. Something must be preventing them from publishing the results, because I bet they have all done these tests in house against other wires and cables, unless they already know it is snake oil. What do you think the reason is, other than the fact that the results are at best inconclusive and most likely no better than most inexpensive wires? |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 87 Registered: Apr-04 | Gregory, One such as you can also eat your heart out. Now here's my story: A DAY IN THE LIFE OF THE AUDIO RETAILER Mr. Garcia, walks into my store and declares, " Hi Lorenzo, I was referred to you by Mr.Chua, I need a pair of loudspeakers for my system at home." Look I say why don't we go across the street to talk about it over a cup of coffee. During the snack I asked Rudy what his electronics were. He tells me he has an old Sansui receiver and a Rega planar 3 TT with a modest cartridge he also uses a first generation Marantz cd player ( This made me chuckle inside because I can recall how the transport made a filing cabinet sound upon loading a cd). I also asked him what his listening room parameters were he mentioned it was small and more or less around 10` x 15`. After the data was provided I gave him this proposal. Rudy I think I can help you but I'm gonna be needing a little help as well from you. He says, Sure you need me to put up a deposit or a consultant fee? No, Rudy I will be needing your ears! So this is what we will do, I'll be sending over a pair of speakers for you to try out in your home with no strings attached. How about it? Yeah thanks that's a good gesture he says and goes on by relating how tired he was of changing the suspension on his previous speakers drivers ( I think some of you may well know what type is being referred to here}. The following day the speakers were delivered hooked up to his system together with the regular demo cables and interconnects. For two days Rudy had a chance to play GOD AND CHOOSE HIS DESTINY. On the third day he calls me up. Lorenzo, I'm gonna take your speakers the music is wonderful my wife loves it too she likes the color alder finish fits with our home interior (hehe wives). Why don't you come here and have supper with us we can all listen to it together bring your mrs. or girlfriend too if you can. As our "better halves" were busy in the kitchen Rudy started to turn on the music on his Sansui which I knew had been hot and ready. Eager as ever Rudy begins to talk about how fine he indeed like the sound he was hearing. However I remained glued and QUIET focusing on the sound. He sort of noticed me so he kept still soon enough and engrossed himself in what he was hearing. Time went by fast before we realized it we finished the entire Tchaikovsky Concerto No.1 Van Cliburn on the piano and Kiril Kondrashin conducting. Rudy was ecstatic with what he just heard. I asked him " Well don't you think the performance was so good it deserves another listen? But this time why don't we hook things up with your previous interconnects and speaker wires. He quickly agreed so we set it up,just then the ladies called us in for dinner. It was a generous lobster dinner we all enjoyed for the next two hours including the chit chat and coffee. Soon Rudy and I were back in the listening room playing back the same recording. I was as usual my QUIET self. But throwing a glance at Rudy his face was as white as snow and I noticed he was listening intently too. However his occasional "BRAVO" was no where to be heard. Often I could see his face contort as he began to cringe in his seat! After the piece he said, Lorenzo I'm kinda new in this thing but what happened? That certainly wasn't Van Cliburn we heard earlier right? You must have placed a hex on the speaker wires and cables, but then they are so worn out I can't even make out it's brand anymore?? What are they I want em` and how much? I want my Van Cliburn BACK PLEASE!!!! Rudy, calm down I can't put a premium on them wires and cables for I'Ve been using them for so many years now for demo. But for your info they are first generation ones made by monster cables. This is what we will do. I'm gonna send you again without any obligation three sets of different speaker wires with matching interconnects one would be entry level, the other would be mid-affordables and third an exotic and highly priced one all from the same manufacturer. remember your evaluation and personal preferences are the main things to consider here. For another two days Rudy was left alone to decide his fate. And then on the third day he comes to the store. Lorenzo, I am returning the mid-affordable and the exotic wires and cables to you. However based on the comparison by way of actual listening tests you have suggested I truly am convinced the exotic one definitely sounds better,but but I can't afford it right now. Rudy, I said you were referred to me by a fine client who loved music more than anything else in his life. I'm gonna level with you, keep them three samples with you for another 30 days no obligations whatsoever after that we can talk about it. I saw the light in his face as he smiled on his way out with the three samples. Two weeks later Rudy was back. Lorenzo, I definitely feel the exotic ones came out better than the rest so my wife and I decided to take them instead of the other two alternatives I only wished the cheaper ones could SOUND THE SAME! that was the magic words I heard him say. This testimony is true with so many of our clients all over Asia. Listen and Believe is an Audiophile motto. if you can't hear a difference and dogmatically declare there is no such thing then that's your personal limitations. It is of no wonder you have remained in the jurassic era of audiophilia. However to those of us who do hear the BIG DIFFERENCE we can only say eat your hearts out boys! The story ends this way. the next week another guy comes into my store and declares. "Where is Lorenzo, Rudy sent me here I need an amplifier!. The cycle never ends. Call me what you may it will not affect my convictions certainly not coming from the likes of you G-Man and John A. The truth that Isaac Stern's ears are more attuned to music than mine when it comes to violin sonata's is a given fact. And to this fact I yield. |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 88 Registered: Apr-04 | I totally agree with Rick Barnes, speaker wires and interconnects should not be used or understood as tone controls in any system. They must be as neutral as possible in order to convey the correct sound to any loudspeakers. This then becomes the basis if your speakers is doing a good job as a transducer of sonic signals. But as in always your built in receptors between your brain will decide right? |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 89 Registered: Apr-04 | Kudo's to you Ben James, you are telling it the way it is. Keep posting man I'm learning like you |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 90 Registered: Apr-04 | KEGGLER, ROFLMO yeah who needs cable discussions eh? |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 659 Registered: Dec-03 | Ben, that is an excellent point about digital co-ax. You need the right cable for the right job, and that is a clear case where a cheap solution can be a bad one. That's a great story, lorenzo. Wish I could visit your store. Finding dealers who are willing to let you try things in the store is getting harder as time goes by. I thought home trials were a thing of the past. And they are the only sort where the customer can usually really listen and decide. I took home a sub about a year ago. After 14 days, during which there is a legal "money returned if not satisfied" obligation on all dealers here, I took it back, in perfect condition, in the box, and with the cable the dealer had supplied (he had lost the one in the box and only supplied an alternative when I showed him the packing list). Feeling some obligation, I tried to explain what the problem was with the sub. For my requirements, it had a very fundamental design limitation, it was not a subjective issue. The guy was not listening, and was not interested. He had no concern at all in a customer's satisfaction with the product, nor in learning anything about the product's problems. He knew he was legally obliged to lose a sale, and that is all he cared about. I've been back once, looking at TVs. He recognised me, and refused to speak to me. For every dealer like you, lorenzo, there are many who feel it is their right to pass unopened boxes, whose contents they do not understand or care about, over the counter in return for money, and any problems are between the customer and the manufacturer. And some of these guys have a retail monopoly on certain brands. And they will often try to burn you with cables, offering spurious pseudo-scientific gibberish as the reason why you should shell out. I imagine Gregory has been there, done that. If your store has a web site or something, lorenzo, please send it. I am not in "Asia" (a big place...) but would be interested in learning more. |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 96 Registered: Apr-04 | John A, Thank you for those comments. truth is more often than not audio retailers tend to behave as you have experienced. Which is the reason here in Manila we do not advertise much 95% of our customers are referrals in other words they come to us. A small percentage would represent walk in's. We believe in everyone's convictions no matter how slanted it may be. Our goal is to maintain that level of interest among the audiophile community here. We cater on a personal basis with one goal customer satisfaction and the address of their complaints as well. We strive to better ourselves by basing our recommendations on what a customer specifically needs. In our company's 30 year existence there has never been a sale made unless the customer puts his own seal of approval upon hearing the gear they intend to buy right in their very own homes. And yes technology has caught up with us and our website is currently in the works.We intend if allowed to post info as soon as it's operational. My personal email is lockaudio801@yahoo.com and everyone is welcome to give their views as they please. And John A in my 40 years in this hobby reading your contributions in this forum is like Cool water in the Sahara desert. And please accept my apologies for any remarks I have posted which has slighted and offended you. This is a small world we live in but if you should be in town here in Manila, lemme buy you a drink ok. Cheers! Lorenzo |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 662 Registered: Dec-03 | Lorenzo, OK! Cheers. What a pleasure to read. Your dealership deserves every success. You would not believe some of the cowboys I see. Well, perhaps you would. Yes, you caused offence, and not just to me, I think. I accept your apology, with thanks, and return mine, for any ill-judged remarks. It is clear we are coming from different directions. But that gives me even more pleasure in your comment about my posts, and I thank you. Audio is a world where all sorts of different people can meet and exchange views. Long may it be so. Let me also say this. A really good dealer is informed, opinionated, argumentative, cares passionately about the product, and values long-term customer satisfaction. These are rare as hens' teeth, and I was beginning to think they are extinct. It is completely clear that you score max points under all headings. All the best, John |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 99 Registered: Apr-04 | The next time an audio retailer offers you to upgrade or buy speaker cables, ask him one thing. Gee pal at that price if they are that good are you willing to lend it to me for a few days? If he refuses then give him a finger for me ok! |
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Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 100 Registered: Apr-04 | John A I recently purchased the DVD-A recording of Emmylou Harris Producer's Cut. The music was fantastic, also I tried playing them both on the Dolby 5.1 as well as the DTS 5.1 surround encoding. There was in my opinion a marked advantage for the better using the DTS encoding. Are these differences available for analytical comparison? Can you share your findings on this. Aside from marketing purposes do you think eliminating to my mind the unnessesary encodings like Dolby 2.0 stereo et al help put down the costs on DVD-A software to make it a more appreciated format? |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 663 Registered: Dec-03 | lorenzo, Re: 5.02. Dealers. Great advice. I'd do it if I could find another dealer here that wasn't the same. One great thing about your post is that it proves there still are real dealers in the world. Quality retailing is under some pressure from Best Buy and all that, and I've heard this particularly from folks in the US. But if you can make clear, as you will, that you offer knowledge, insight, and concern for quality, then let me tell you you will prosper and grow all the more. There is whole blo*dy army of guys like me out there who remember good service with gratitude, and will never forget where they got it. And another army of new guys who know meaningless hype when they read it or hear it, and want to try for themselves before they buy. E.g. I've probably bored everyone to death with my Rega Planar 3. You probably know, lorenzo, that Rega never advertised, just relied, as you do, on personal recommendation. It may not now be the best in the world, but at that price, at that time, it was the best turntable for miles. I know. I tried the then "state of the art". The other turntables, which you could buy anywhere, had all the advertising and brand postioning, all the mindless "features" fashionable at the time (and now forgotten), and didn't hold a candle to the Rega for sound quality. I owe that dealer big, and would go back if I still lived in the same place. Like you he still doesn't have a web site. I still recommend him to anyone who asks. E.g. one nice guy is planning an audio shopping trip to England, from Switzerland, and asked me for my opinion. Re: 05.18 Surround sound. I went through a steep learning curve on surround formats on this forum. My whole experience of surround sound is still not quite one year old. One thread is still running. What does "DVD-audio" mean here?. Admin has just moved that thread to the new category "DVD-Audio & SACD". This is good. "DVD-Audio" belongs under "Audio", and has got to get away from the home cinema/theatre bracket. Anyway, I started that thread with some stupid newbie misapprehensions, got some flames, and ended up learning from guys who could be bothered to explain what was going on. One was Gregory, posting then as "G-Man", and I thank him. There were others. To try to give a short answer, and I will try to expand and explain if anyone wants. Take look at the links (and see below) for what Dolby and DTS have to say for themselves about their formats . Dolby Digital means many things (you can find it on videotapes etc). AC-3 is the 5.1 format that helped kick-off the DVD-Video deal, I think in 1997. It is a compromise format aiming to give movie watchers acceptable stereo in addition to true 5.1. The 5.1 is probably built around the assumption that the listener/viewer has an all-in one system with speakers the size of tin cans, a low-power amp, and it therefore leans heavily on the active sub for everything else, from all channels. On many discs I have, if you give it large speakers all round then it seems to duplicate the bass intended for the LFE channel. DTS "Digital Theater Systems" is a competitor to Dolby. It started with audio and computer engineers concerned with getting good sound quality for movies in cinemas/movie theatres, and has an interesting history going back to the earliest experiments with digital sound encoding (there is a pdf file on their site - linked below). They got backing from Spielberg and the first DTS movie was "Jurassic Park". When DVD HT kicked in, they produced a format radically different from Dolby, using intrinsically higher-resolution encoding (96 kHz; 24 bit; PCM - same as DVD-A for 5.1) but they had to compress the files, to get them on a disc alongside Dolby AC-3. The claim is it is that the compression is "perceptually lossless" but it isn't - DVD-A proves THAT, too! But you've got to give it to those guys for trying to do something. In reality, DTS is a less audio-compromised format than DD: it is designed for large speakers for all 5 main channels, with LFE as a separate act. The price they pay for the average movie watcher is that it is 5.1 or nothing - stereo down-mix is impossible, and there is no 2.0. Now, I was knocked out by DTS. It was so clearly superior to Dolby that I could not understand why it was not common knowledge. It could be down to my decoders (in the receiver), but I doubt it. File sizes. A DD AC-3 file is about half the size of the file containing the same programme in DTS. Now the cost of physically burning and producing a DVD, whatever the format, is very small. What dictates formats available on DVD-Vs is largely marketing questions. For an average movie, the recording company has to choose how best to use the available space. Where there is a multi-lingual region, the distributor will want a movie dubbed into maybe 4 or 5 languages, so the supplier will stick with Dolby Digital. Examples: light romantic comedies; and especially children's movies, where subtitles are not an option, and parents, rightly, care about kids learning their own language. If you choose DTS, you get better sound, but it swallows up the available disc space. So DTS is only worth it to the company if it is likely that sound quality is going to be an issue for the listener/watcher, and if they think people are going to be happy with subtitles (taking almost no space) instead of dubbed soundtracks. Perfect example: feature-length "serious contender" movies e.g Gladiator etc. and many more. There is a notable example, par excellence, The Lord of the Rings, and not just because chunks of it are in Elvish. Each part of the trilogy was released in the cinema in December; then on DVD "theatrical release" (Dolby Digital only) on just one disc in about the following August; then as an "extended edition" (the full movie, without the cuts the director didn't want to make, and in DTS) on two discs (plus "the making of" etc on further discs) in November. The extended editions are so much better it is untrue. Some of the actors have said the extended edition DVDs will outlive all other versions, and the only ones worth considering if you want to know what Peter Jackson and his guys were really trying to do. If you look at the "Extra material" of the Fellowship, you can see how obsessed with sound quality and music they all were. Any "Audiophile" who doubts the seriousness of intent of some movie makers as regards sound quality should take a look at the "extended" Fellowship, for example, and then see the supplementary material by Jackson, the sound engineers, and especially the composer, Howard Shore. DVD-Audio. To my complete surprise, it leaves even DTS at the starting blocks. There is a genuinely lossless packing to use the disc space effectively, called MLP. - but even then, they use the entire disc for sound i.e. they don't have to "waste" space on video footage. It is a new era in sound reproduction in the home. I mean that. I won't write any more on DVD-Audio! Sure, its origins are in home cinema, but so what? Half of the industrial revolution and the transport we have today comes from steam locomotives and bicycles (the Wright Bros. were cycle dealers if I remember correctly). That's about it. Even DTS 5.1 is an big advance on CD sound in my opinion. DD 5.1 is an all-purpose format for movies. Don't knock it, it gives people pleasure. But DD it's not there if you are serious about sound quality. DD 2.0 on the disc is only there as a hangover from movies made with VHS in mind, I think. It doesn't take much disc space anyway, you might as well use the 5.1 down-mix. DD 2.0 will just go away. More links I have read up what Dolby and DTS each have to say about their two competing systems. I agree with you, and greatly prefer DTS sound. Dolby rubbishes DTS, but to me Dolby's arguments are unconvincing. Read, listen, and decide for yourself.... Dolby Evaluates DTS, Parts 1&2 (PDF; 99 KB) DTS Position on "Dolby Evaluates DTS" (Part 1) DTS Position on "Dolby Evaluates DTS" (Part 2) This DTS link is interesting and, to me, makes a lot of sense:- Brief History and Technical Overview |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 101 Registered: Apr-04 | Many thanks for the valuable info Now I have a point of reference to share when my customers asks. I like it when they ask(newbies) they open a pandora's box most of the time. Learning something new is all worth it though. Some dealers offer that money back promo which is really all BS. they simply use your cash to bridge finance their inventory return it to you without interest and maybe just maybe you might buy the gear out of obligation. These are the guys wearing the Darth Vader hats you can spot them a mile off. Your mention of the LOR is very appropriate for a DD the sound was quite impressive indeed. |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 102 Registered: Apr-04 | John A The Rega 3 TT with the RB250 Tonearm and a fine cartridge to booth would still be a very hard nut to beat even today. Well I fully agree on your appraisal of the Rega3`s value. It would have been a fitting tribute if Harry Pearson chose the Rega3 over the Linn Sondek LP12 on his top ten list of audio gear which made a mark in the industry eh? But then again we are not Harry hehe. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 666 Registered: Dec-03 | lorenzo, You are welcome. All the hard info (not so much there) is public, all the soft opinion is mine alone. The links are good. LOR is one clear example where DTS shines over DD, I think. The extended editions are worth it just for the sound quality, let alone the re-introduced essential story elements in the film. At the time I bought the Rega, the Linn Sondek LP12 had real status with people who seemed to know, but was an awful lot more expensive, quite out of my reach at that time. I heard one demo'd with a Quad system including the ESL speakers (forget precisely which - "63"?) and it was so vivid. There was a rumour the LP12 and the Planar 3 had the same main bearing, I never found out of that was true. Sorry I don't recognise the name "Harry Pearson" or know about his top 10. Don't go into denounce mode again! I've been asleep audiowise for many years, like Rip van Winkle. I don't claim otherwise. It is good to be back, though. I've got a load of work on until about the middle of next week, so won't be right on the ball here for a few days. It has been a pleasure exchanging views with you. Please tell me who this Pearson guy is, and maybe I can get on with other stuff that I need to do. And also sleep! |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 104 Registered: Apr-04 | John A Harry Pearson oh he's the founder of The Absolute Sound magazine just another audio nut like us no big deal hehe. Well hope to see you back in here soon. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 669 Registered: Dec-03 | lorenzo, Great, thanks. But he must be a "mover and a shaker" as they say. "Take nobody's word for it". Let your ears decide, in conjunction with your brain. That's another area on which we agree, unless I've got it all wrong. |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 105 Registered: Apr-04 | John A Aye! No dispute on what you just said. |
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