The importance of good speakers!
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1795 Registered: Mar-05 | A couple of weeks ago, I brought in my much-maligned vintage Sony ES carousel to a local audio shop and did a head to head with a couple of "audiophile" CD players as well as a Pioneer DVD player. Posted the results here, which basically revealed only subtle differences to my ears: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/154093.html Anyways because I decided to get rid of the POS ministereo I had in my bedroom, I decided to buy the Marantz 4300, mainly because of the CDPs I heard this one intrigued me the most and also because I found a really cheap refurbed model. Just came in today, rushed home, gulped down dinner and hooked it up...HOLY SHI-ZUH!!! In my living room, on my gear, the Marantz sounds about ten times better than it did in the shop, and CLEARLY much better than the Sony!!! I just sat there with my mouth open for about 10 minutes. Now here's the interesting thing: I use my NAD separates for music listening. The shop, on my request, tried to duplicate it by hooking it up to a NAD c372 integrated amp. I have Ascend 340s for mains; going by my description of them being "neutral speakers with a flat frequency response and very little coloration" they used some Monitor Audio floorstanders that cost almost 3 times what the Ascends did, around $1500 (I forget the exact model). I have el cheapo generic Phillips interconnects bought at Home Depot and cheap 11 gauge IXOS speaker cable bought from accessories4less.com, they had some very upscalish flat optic-cable-resembling speaker cable and some equally expensive looking specialized interconnects (I never bothered to ask since I have zero interest in such things). YET the Marantz still sounded indescribably better in my home than in their specialized listening room! Detail, bass, cadence, soundstaging---all of that was just SO MUCH BETTER!!! How can that be? I figure there are only 4 possible explanations for this phenomenon: 1. Power source: my vintage NAD separates are much better than the present day NAD c372? 2. Speakers: my humbly priced Ascend 340s destroy the $1500 Monitor Audio floorstanders? 3. My room accoustics are far far superior to the shop's? 4. My generic cables and interconnects destroy the shop's exotic cables and interconnects? I find #1 hard to believe; I can imagine that the NAD sound may be a little different today than 15 years ago but it shouldn't be NIGHT and DAY. #3 is unlikely since I have the mother of all accoustic nightmares of a room, 6000 cubic feet with 18 foot vaulted ceiling, slanted corner with marble fireplace, glass French doors on both sides and open space wrapping around on both sides into different areas with the speakers being positioned basically smack in the middle of the room. The shop had a dedicated listening room which had no glaring accoustic features that I could see; as a fairly upscale shop (they carry those funky looking Gallo speakers) I'd imagine that the room was probably accoustically treated in some way, it'd be silly of them not to do that. Find it very hard to imagine it was their room's fault. #4 would be very tempting fodder for provoking the cable mystics around here, but I'll hold myself back on that. : ) That leaves only #2 as the remaining explanation: it must be the SPEAKERS! In the shop I thought I liked the MAs because of their strong bass response, but now listening to the Marantz at home through my Ascends, it really does sound like the MAs paid for that in the middle and higher frequencies. With the Ascends I'd swear that a veil has been lifted or a dam has been broken (that analogy was probably prompted by too much New Orleans news watching today), everything comes through totally clear and clean. Mids are powerful and detailed without being harsh or bright, accoustic guitars shimmer and sparkle with authority, the infamous cymbal brushes of "Come Away With Me" actually sound like distinct brushes rather than one continuos blob of hiss...HALLELUJAH!!! I have never heard Norah Jones sound so good---and in the shop 90% of my ABing time was spent with her CD! Before, I considered her work to be sort of mellow kick-back music...tonight it felt almost like get-up-and-dance! The bass that the Marantz brought in was so dramatic that I actually preferred to turn off my subwoofer...first time that I can think of. Now the unfortunate thing is, I could see myself getting a little restless a month or two from now, thinking to myself "well geez if the Marantz can sound this good on my system, what about that NAD c542 or other more expensive CDPs?" Heh, my poor wife is going to have a fit! Anyways, I hereby renounce all my doubts about the importance of speakers and source material. Previously I had taken the position that power source was first, then speakers, and far behind, the CDP. Tonight was really an eye-opener on the importance of ALL the links in the chain: power source, speakers, AND music source. It does appear that music source is much less important if the power source and speakers are not up to snuff though. Which begs the question: if you had to sacrifice one of those 3 elements, which one should you give up in order to lose the least in overall SQ? Well I'll leave others to ponder that question while I go hug my Ascends again... WHO-EEEEEE!!! |
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nout Unregistered guest | I think room acoustics in your case make the difference. I've had similair experiences...my humble set at home consisting of a Marantz PM 7200, Marantz CD 5000 and B&W 201i speakers and cheap cables sounded a lot better than a Musical Fidelity (A3 series) set with Dynaudio 52 speakers in a special "tuned" audio room in a hif store: speakers where placed correctly, the cables looked very exotic, the room was cushioned to avoid hard sounds etc. It sounded horrible, a bass that boomed all the way, no midrange at all, only bass and highs. I couldn't help myself but had to laugh out loud looking at the shop's experts faces and manners, they thought it was heaven they'd created...those cables sure looked beautiful. It could be the amp and speakers as well, I dont think your Marantz cd player makes the difference...as you said the NAD C542 will probably sound equally good or better in your set. In my case switching amps (from an old Pioneer to the Marantz I now own) made the difference, not another source. Finally it all comes down to own preferences and taste ofcourse, it is not a fact that my set sounded better than the one in the hifi store, I just liked my ears better than theirs. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 41 Registered: Aug-05 | From my experience I wold put equal weight to speakers, amp, and source. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5398 Registered: May-04 | Ed - You left out the possibility that in your own home system you get to relax and listen. 90% of your audition was with one CD? That doesn't give the system much chance to open up the various ways it can sound better than your "familiar" option. Particularly when you are listening to an entirely different system in a different room. You end up judging that system and room and paying attention to the piece of equipment at hand becomes more difficult. Unless you had the opportunity to use the same system in the store over and over until you were comfortable with it, there are going to be numerous things you miss in an audition that come out clearly when you get into familiar surroundings where you can listen to just the music. It's a bit like taking a car out for a test driver. You can take corners, go out on the highway, slam the trunk and kick the tires. Once you buy the darn thing and begin to live with it, you notice lots of things you just cannot on a "test" drive; right down to the tiny metal flake in the paint you never noticed until the light hit it just right. I don't know whether you do or do not have a hifi hierarchy that you run through when you are judging a piece of equipment. I would suggest such a thing is very useful when buying new equipment. (Your wife may disagree since it your curent auiditioning process would keep you from buying new products.) As we discussed in another thread, switching components in and out is really just testing your hearing and not the quality of music the component reproduces. When you can relax and consider how the gear fits into your scheme of giving you what you want in music, you will hear things more easily than any A-B comparison in a store. That's why a home audition is very important before making a decision. Think of it as taking the puppy home for the weekend. And, never over estimate the inability of a store to present their product in its best light. Many stores can't for whatever reason and some just don't care to. Finally, it is a reproduction chain. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 24 Registered: Jul-05 | Number 1 and number 4 have the biggest impact is my guess, having been in your listening area a few times. Your NAD separates are very good and the amp is key in final result. Also, those flat interconnects you mentioned have, in general, been tested in speaker cable face offs, and despite their expense, are noted to be hugely problematic in simply moving signal from one place to another. I actually have that link somewhere. Your room is unlikely to be superior. Its somewaht of a nightmare, other than being really open ( not a bad thing). I have never heard the monitor audio speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 828 Registered: Sep-04 | Edster, Room acoustics would make a significant difference of course, but I think you've missed out on the most obvious explanation... Monitor Audio speakers are crap. Oh by the way, Monitor Audio speakers are crap...(blimey, did I say that OUT LOUD!) Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1369 Registered: Feb-04 | So at US$150 I should just buy that as my dedicated CD player and forget about the Rotel RCD-02, or NAD C521BEE or Denon 2910 refurb? It's that good? :-) |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1370 Registered: Feb-04 | The Marantz CC4300 has a MSRP of C$400 here, so it's nearly the (local) price as the Cambridge Audio Azur 540C or the NAD C521BEE (and more than the used Rotel RCD-02). Thus US$150 is a very good price but ww.accessories4less.com does not accept orders out of the US... Gotta cross it off my list... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 862 Registered: Jun-05 | I gree with Frank %100 any different room will make a huge diiference,your room is your ears not Tom,dick,and,Harrys,yours and yours only,it will always be the biggest factor in any audio approach and purchase.Audio purchase in the UK is the greatest experience in the world,they will let you take a whole system home for audition,and come back and forth and exchange componants,the real way we should be able to buy audio,it enables,you to learn every talent of each piece a gear,something that the US lacks,because all they want to do is to make aprofit off of you.Eddie me and Art,told you it would be a huge difference and thats why I told you to order the Onix cd player was to get it home listen to it,remember Eddie"If you buy you wont wanna bring it back"Thats a perfect example for all you new buyers we can tell you what would be a good purchase until we are blue in the face,but nothing makes a bigger difference than your ears and your home.Yes unfortately Frank MA is no longer the company they were 6 years ago they sold out,when you can make your top of the line speaker shed $8000 something is wrong,you can see it in their cabinets now at one time MA built cabinets for 125 different speaker companies in the UK,they were the most prominent speaker cabinet makers in Europe,but that has all changed now,the terrible things,that the A/V world has done to us.MA a former speaker superpower nothing more than a speaker with metal drivers that work good for H/T. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2235 Registered: Jan-05 | eddie eating crow again?? So what's new about that? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1801 Registered: Mar-05 | Sorry, I'm leaving in 30 minutes for a 5 day meditation retreat, so will continue this thread when I get back on Tuesday or Wednesday... Marc: so you think vintage NAD separates are that much better than a brand new c372 integrated? That's nice to hear, I sometimes wondered about what I'd be getting had I spent the extra $200 for the c372...it does have a remote, for one thing! lol Frank: well that was easy! : ) Jan: well I wrote that post after just 15 minutes of listening to the Marantz at home. When I was at the shop I was alone in the listening room for almost 2 hours, there was no sales pressure at all and the guy understood that I wasn't ready to buy that day. But the unconscious mind works in mysterious ways, and maybe familiar surroundings did have something to do with it...but I wouldn't expect such a DRAMATIC change though if it were all in my head. Peter: right now if I could find the c542 for not more than $100 over what I paid for the Marantz I'd probably consider it but the cheapest refurb c542 I could find online was $350 plus shipping, brand new is around $400-450. Can't say anything about the Denon, Rotel or Cambridge since I've never heard them. Quinn: well if there was one out of those 3 parts that you had to sacrifice which would it be? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5407 Registered: May-04 | Fifteen minutes isn't much either. Give the new player two weeks and then replace it with your old Sony. Then you can type out a reasoned response to the two players. |
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Anonymous | Paul your such a clown, you have had crow coming out of every orifice in your body on this forum for months now, but you are too stupid to see it though everybody else does. what did jesus say about the splinter in your neighbor's eye and the plank sticking out of your own? hahahaha do you have any idea what an embarassment you are to yourself? i guess not...ignorance is bliss isn't it. |
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patrickbateman Unregistered guest | Im interested in this talk of Monitor Audio being a crap product. Please tell me more before I pull the plug |
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TSH Unregistered guest | I recently purchased MA Silver 6 speakers at a great price cause they were being discontinued. I listened to a lot of stuff and liked them. Have them paired with NAD int amp and cdp. They were a big step up for me from my Paradigm Titans. Admittedly, the price break was a big factor. They were originally on the floor for about $1400 CDN and I walked out with them for $900 CDN. I did not hear anything else in that price range that had the detail. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 25 Registered: Jul-05 | On the room acoustics- I dedicated listening room in an audio shop is going to be better than Eddie's room- which is a minor acoustical nightmare. Since he got a better result in a less acoustically friendly room, the room is not the reason why things sounded better! Also, A bad pair of speakers isnt ever going to sound good in the best acoustic room. The only acoustically perfect room I have ever been in is in a place called "The Complex" in LA, where Fleetwood Mac Rumours and Eagles Hotel California were recorded. The instruments sound awesome in there as do the monitors. I know nothing about Monitor Audio Speakers at all. I have never heard a pair. Yes Eddie- I think your NAD separates, however old, are excellent. I felt they did justice to the YG acoustics demo CD I left you, along with those fine Ascend speakers you have. A good pairing!!! |
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anonymousII Unregistered guest | I have had a Monitor Audio Silver series setup for 2 1/2 years and they are far from "crap". I could not ask for a better speaker for my room and the sound I want. Anyone, Frank included who thinks they are crap need a hearing test very badly. That's just a very ridiculous thing to say. You might like others better but save the crap comments for real garbage like Bose and Cervin Vega. And, rush to the nearest audiologist. |
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New member Username: DarthPost Number: 10 Registered: Aug-05 | No, the Monitor Audio speakers are definitely not "crap". They are actually very decent. While enjoying this hobby so much, I have had the opportunity to listen and own various speakers through out a long and amazing journey and can say for sure that the Silver and Gold series are in fact very good. I am not going to say who needs hearing aid or who needs what, I can only state the facts. Besides, IMHO when you evaluate any speaker the power source plays the most important role in the chain. My two cents. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5413 Registered: May-04 | Hey, Paul, ol' buddy; how about instead of letting you highjack thread after thread with your comments and comebacks, we do this. We'll set up a P.I.S.S. (Paul's Idiotic Statements Score). Every time you say something idiotic, you'll get a ranking. You know, like that last comment - oh, man, that's definitely a "10" on a scale of 1 to 10. Every time you say something intelligent, we'll give you a score for that too. I haven't figured that scale out yet 'cause I figure there's no need. By the way, when was the last time you said anything that wasn't stupid and insulting? OK, here we go; we can all now just ignore Paul. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5414 Registered: May-04 | P.I.S.S. \2 {10} |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2249 Registered: Jan-05 | Give me a break. I cant help that you watch movies with 11lb lightweights serving 'front duty'. Dont blame me for your shortcomings. Im afraid to ask what equally petite sub joins those pint sized fronts. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5415 Registered: May-04 | P.I.S.S. 10 |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 388 Registered: Jul-04 | Eddie said: "With the Ascends I'd swear that a veil has been lifted or a dam has been broken (that analogy was probably prompted by too much New Orleans news watching today), everything comes through totally clear and clean." Edster - there are better speakers than your ascends available for less money. . . . . . The cbm-170s - you said so yourself! Sorry, I couldn't resist. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 44 Registered: Aug-05 | Except now he has got to try that again with the new source. Shall I take the 170s back off the wall for you Eddie? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 463 Registered: May-05 | Don, Welcome back ole boy, we've missed you. We heard that Paul had kidnapped you and was playing his HT at -8 until you admitted CVs rule and subs larger than refrigerators are the only audio option. You survived and we're glad. Yes, the CBM 170s do rock, now I just need to figure out how to get everything out of them. Suggestions Quinn? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 394 Registered: Jul-04 | CVs DO rule and subs larger than refrigerators ARE the only audio option! Can I go now Paul? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2273 Registered: Jan-05 | Dak, What did you get into your 170s? Did you accidently pour sand from the speakerstands into them and cant get it out?? HEH C'mon Don, I never said they were the only audio option. I was only referring to HT uses  |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 878 Registered: Jun-05 | Frank called the MAs crap,but it wasnt meant like CV crap,we both was just mearly saying they are clearly not as good as they used to be,if either of you guys havent heard or seen some from about 6 years back then neither one of you have anything to be whining about,because you probably dont know anything about the history of their company or their past products,so calm down knowones saying you have Jensons. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 395 Registered: Jul-04 | Just kidding Paul |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 837 Registered: Sep-04 | Tawaun, and those others who think MA speakers are not crap, We used to sell MA, but they never did it for me. They were OK in the usual non-musical sense, but they couldn't rock, they couldn't time and they were seriously deficient in the bandwidth stakes. Eventually we gave up trying to sell them since thye couldn't compete. We have heard the latest ranges and they remain crap. If anything, they've got worse. At least in the old days they were at best pleasantly inoffensive. Nowadays they're almost offensive. In my opinion, they're the Bose of the speaker world. In fact, I have more against them than Bose! At least with Bose you know you're buying a compromised product. At least listen to alternatives before buying Monitor Audio. If you still prefer them over other things in the same price range, then you have very different tastes to mine. Regards, Frank. |
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anonymousII Unregistered guest | Frank, After reading your last comment comparing MA's to Bose I will never take anything you say seriously again. If that comment is what you really believe I can only say you are a total idiot. |
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Bronze Member Username: DarthPost Number: 11 Registered: Aug-05 | Frank, I know it all comes down to different tastes and preferences; only for that I respect your opinion but your statement regarding MA is absurd. I am not here to defend any brand or to say which is the "best" speaker in the world but to compare BOSE to MA and furthermore to assert that MA is worse than BOSE is just ludicrous. I used to read your posts with some interest but after this I definitely do not think I could take you seriously. Oh My God! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1595 Registered: Feb-05 | Correct me if I'm wrong Frank. I believe that what Frank meant is that MA, unlike Bose, is a well respected speaker manufacturer. As such their under achievement is even the more salient. I think that most of us have products that we feel that way about. |
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Bronze Member Username: DarthPost Number: 12 Registered: Aug-05 | It may be Art but I would not use the word "crap" to grade MA. Driven with decent components they sound very good actually like most of well built speakers. It is just difficult for me to link MA with "crap" it just does not make sense at all. Yes, there are better speakers out there but let's keep it real, wouldn't you agree? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1598 Registered: Feb-05 | I didn't say I agree with Frank, I was just hoping to clarify his statement. I used to like MA speakers myself. Their Bronze series has won critical acclaim as budget wonders. The last time I heard them was with an AVR at a big box store last year. Not a good way to listen to any speaker. Anyway my point being that I don't always agree with Frank but I have come to respect his opinion. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 907 Registered: Jun-05 | To Tauaun and others,like I was leading the MA charge,I never called them crap I just mearly stated that they were not as good as they used to be and Frank im a former MA owner and I certainly dont feel the way you do.So Tawaun and Others are we stupid because we like MAs?Frank i dont care how compare them but putting them in the same sentence as Bose is one of the dumbest statements Ive heard a So called audiophile say.That might gain you a piece of Pauls P.I.S.S. meter you really dropped on mine after that,on the contrary to what you might think their are many speakers for $4k that I and others feel are vastly superior to your Mani 2s,but I will never classify the Mani 2s in the same sentence as Bose,Wow I must say im dissapointed. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 908 Registered: Jun-05 | I mispelled my own name, Wow! Frank thats not even as idiotic as your statement and me and Art were trying to give you the benafit of the doubt. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 476 Registered: May-05 | Paul, There's nothing in my 170s, sand or otherwise. I'm just trying to find a way to drive them for all they've got. So, I'm looking for any options, including trying another amp, if necessary to see what they'll do. Everyone else, I haven't heard the MAs so I don't know if they're crap, Bose in prettier packages or great speakers. However, I'm teachable and, generally, I find Frank not to be out in left field so let's reread Art's post and give Frank the benefit of a doubt. After all, T-Man, he spelled his own name right, right? LOL!! |
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Anonymous | no shortage of sand between Paul's ears though, heh...sand and space! |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 853 Registered: Sep-04 | Heh heh, I knew when I wrote it that the Bose sentence would cause a ruffling of feathers. Art was on the money. Monitor Audio get accolade after accolade, and yet all they produce is speakers which sound at best 'nice'. It really annoys me and my colleagues when we see this dross being sold to unsuspecting lambs. The HiFi trade is desperately trying to hang on to market share. It's trying to raise the awareness of joe bloggs to the fact that there is better than crap sound. Then joe goes and buys Monitor Audio and all the hard work is for nought. It's manufacturers like MA that are killing this industry by putting overpriced underachieving bags of rubbish on the high street. What gets me is how the heck they get the damned accolades with this rubbish??? Everyone I've ever talked to who came in asking about Bose either already half-suspected or already knew that it was a pretty compromised product. People are buying MA as if it was the bees knees. Then again, my wife and I were listening to an acquaintance's system the other day. This was a COPLAND 822 Cd player into a conrad-johnson Premier 17 preamp, conrad-johnson MV60SE power amp, Avalon Avatar speakers, all (except the power amp) through an Isotek MiniSub power supply cabled by Cardas and Transparent. The wife and I felt like it was watching paint dry. This system costs in the region of £24k! Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 854 Registered: Sep-04 | I guess the point of the above post is that different people have different priorities or different needs from their systems. I may think that MA is crap, but trust me when I say that my own colleagues don't think much of my Mani-2s!!! So go figure. |
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anonymousII Unregistered guest | Frank, Got a kick out of your last two posts. I fully understand as I have the same feelings when I am in my local shop and see people put down hard earned money for low and mid level Klipsch speakers. I dislike them as much as you the MA's. The Klipsch make my ears bleed as my dealer usually has paired them with either Denon or SonyES. Yeck! |
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Frank's Acquaintance Unregistered guest | Well you didn't tell me it was like watching paint dry Frank! |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 859 Registered: Sep-04 | Holy crap! Is it really you?! If so, don't forget that I said the system had lots of positive attributes. It's just that those attributes aren't as important to me as the ones that my system has. If not, well done for yanking my chain! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 909 Registered: Jun-05 | Like I said earlier Frank its many guys I know in the industry that dont care for the Mani 2s especially at that price level and then factor in how hard they are to drive.Just like you say youve been selling MA for 9 years I've been selling Totem for 3 years and had a good friend that had been selling them since the introduction of the original Model 1,so you're not the only one who knows his or her stuff.I know Totems from top to bottom as good as anyone in this country,ive been around MAs for about 10 years and Ive heard every thing they make,and I agree they arent as good as they used to be,but very far from crap,I can bring up a company from the UK that is crap and thats Mission and thats the only one I consider worthy of being crap. |
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