Archive through August 04, 2005
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1394 Registered: Mar-05 | Well, due to previous social obligations I have not had as much time to listen to the Lings tonight as I would've liked---total of maybe 2 hours. Unplugging and replugging in banana plugs as I try to do a direct comparison is a pain in the butt, I am going to look into buying a speaker selector. Right now I am almost tempted to keep BOTH the Ascends and the Lings and use each for different types of music! (The wife doesn't know about this yet, HEH.) Here are my impressions, very preliminary right now: 1. Cabinets: wow, they really do look great and they smell good too...I likes! Excellent build quality, nice solid sound when rapped with knuckles. 2. SPL/room-filling ability: well there's no getting around the fact that it does make a huge difference that the Ascend 340s have 2 woofers instead of 1, 6.5" instead of 4.5" woofers, and 92db sensitivity vs. the Lings' 85 db sensitivity...to reach a "comfortably loud" level I had my NAD volume knob turned to 9 o'clock for the Ascends, but had to go to almost 11 o'clock for the Lings. HOWEVER (pay attention here, Paul!)---I have to say that when the volume knob was adjusted to achieve the same SPL for the Lings, they came very close to the larger 340s in providing an enveloping sound environment. This could be a credit to the NAD separates, though---not sure how the Lings would fare with a lesser power source. So what I found is that with the volume cranked up a little more, the Lings' 4.5" woofers were quite adequate even in my 6000 cubic foot listening space! 3. "Warmth"---well, rather than fall back on this infamously indefinable term, I would describe the principal difference is that the Lings are SLOWER than my Ascend 340s. If I'm not mistaken, the audiophile jargon is "attack and decay"---what I'm hearing is that for certain instruments (guitar and piano), the notes seem to *linger* (Tim, is this why you chose the name "Lings" for your speaker?) a good bit longer than they do on the Ascends before fading off into the next notes. To my ears, what this means is that guitar (a couple of lesser-known tracks from the Dire Straits' "Brothers in Arms") and classical solo piano (Bach's Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould performance) on the Lings have a wonderfully sweet, GOLDEN quality which I definitely prefer over the Ascends' crisp and neutral sound. Yeah, here I would have to say that the Lings *are* a much more "involving" speaker to listen to this type of music with...not as detailed as the Ascends but very very pleasing! 4. Imaging/Soundstage---there is an ongoing thread on this topic in which Jan challenges popular notions of I/M but since I haven't totally figured out what he's talking about yet, I'll put it in conventional terms: the Ascends do seem to throw a wider and deeper soundstage. I can pick out and locate different instruments much more readily and precisely on the Ascends than on the Lings. This may be a direct consequence of #2 however. I do know that when I listened to Dinah Washington's "I've Got You Under My Skin" her voice was definitely not as centered in between the Lings like they were with the Ascends. Also I find that I much prefer the sound of horns/brass on the Ascends than on the Lings. The Lings to my ears tend to take away too much of not only the detail but also the energy of horns...I don't know if "smearing" or "muddying" are too strong to describe it, but I certainly preferred Miles Davis on the Ascends by just as big a margin as I preferred guitar and piano on the Lings. 5. Bass---on Tim's website, part of the description of the Lings is, "A TRUE bookshelf speaker made especially for placement close to walls. People always ask if a subwoofer is playing when these are demonstrated." Well let me tell you, I have his Lings placed at least 3 feet from the wall (the right side speaker's back actually points to some space NEXT to the wall) and this wall is basically smack dab in the middle of a 6000 cubic foot listening space with 18 foot vaulted ceilings---AND THEY *STILL* DELIVERED SOME VERY IMPRESSIVE BASS!!! How in the hell he manages to do this with a mere 4.5" driver and such a small cabinet simply boggles my mind, but folks he ain't lying! Where the Lings lagged behind the 340s on the horns of Dave Brubeck's "Take Five", it absolutely slaughters the 340s on the drums of that song...wow, wow, wow. Of course as noted many times, the Ascends are basically designed to be used with a sub. 6. Vocal reproduction---this is one of the areas I hope to do a lot more listening of in the coming days. Tonight all I had to compare were Dire Straits, Dinah Washington, and a little Diana Krall. The Lings narrowly won with Dire Straits, got creamed with Dinah Washington, and tied on Diana Krall. Tomorrow I will be comparing Norah Jones, Annie Lennox, more rock and jazz music, some Spanish guitar and classical violin, heck maybe even a symphony or two. Now obviously the Ascend 170s would be a much fairer comparison with the Lings, so I'm waiting for Quinn to show up at my door with his 170s in the next few days. Right now though I am quite impressed with Tim's speakers and would definitely purchase them for a 2.0 bedroom system...the only caveat is that I think they require a good power source to compensate for the 85db and 4.5" driver. Earlier in the evening when I first unpacked the Lings I decided to compare them with my much-maligned Polk R20s on my bedroom's Sony POS minisystem. I was surprised to find that the difference was not nearly as dramatic as I had expected, that Sony sounds bad period. The NAD made the Lings sound like a very different speaker...I will have to drag the R20s up to the NAD sometime just for kicks. All of which confirms my post-NAD awakening that speakers may only be the SECOND most important part of a sound system, contrary to popular belief...well that's a whole other thread by itself of course. Anyways, I look forward to many more hours of listening before I send these off to Jan! All of these first impressions are fairly malleable, or at least I like to think of them as being so. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1397 Registered: Mar-05 | Maybe I'll try a shorter way of putting it: if music were a landscape, the Ascends are like looking at an Ansel Adams photograph of the landscape, while the Lings are like looking at a Cezanne painting of it. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4724 Registered: May-04 | Yeah, but if music were baby food; which would be the strained peas and carrots and which the pureed bananas? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1398 Registered: Mar-05 | Sorry, Jan...being blissfully offspring-free (and hellbent on keeping it that way), I'm not qualified to answer that question. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1384 Registered: Feb-05 | Good review so far Edster. I have been looking forward to it, and you have made it worth the wait. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 399 Registered: Dec-03 | It's nice to know the Lings managed to keep up, for the most part, with a more expensive, highly regarded and larger speaker. A single 4.5" vs. a dual 6.5" is a tough one. The sensitivity issue comes up often and it's simply that sensitivity was sacrificed for better bass response in a small package. The Lings are not intended for low power tube amps but for amps like the NAD that Edster is using. Full, room filling sound in a small box. You've done a good job communicating your impressions so far Edster. I'm curious to find out your thoughts are on the Lings performance when mated with a subwoofer if you have the opportunity. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 400 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm going to make a special offer to those participating in the Ring. If you would like to purchase a pair of Lings I will give you an additional $100 discount in exchange for listening to them and posting your opinions. This is the only place I'm making this offer. $299 per pair plus shipping. How's that? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 401 Registered: Dec-03 | A quick disclaimer: This offer is limited to the participants of the Ring of the Lings. Quantities are limited. Please don't ask for multiple sets at this price. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 465 Registered: Jun-05 | Edster very well done sounds like you are really up to snuff on things,very impressive review,looking foward to hearing more.Tim thats a outstanding deal Im sure some if not all of us will take you up on that offer. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 329 Registered: May-05 | Now Tim makes that offer. THanks, big guy that would have more than paid for shipping the Ascends back. LOL Kidding aside, Tim that may be worth me considering to use the Lings in a 2 channel environment downstairs but I'd be running my old Denon AVR receiver, which is only 85 wpc, probably closer to 60 in real life. Is that enough power, do you think? Great review thus far, Edster, I'm waithing for the continuing comparison and the addition of the 170s. THanks, Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1404 Registered: Mar-05 | sorry guys, nothing to report tonight---household chores, then watched "Matrix Revolutions" with the wife. Much better than the second "matrix" and almost as many unintended giggles as the first "matrix" but the soundtrack gave my system a nice workout. BTW, Quinn bless his heart must've took pity on me and has loaned me his Hsu STF-2 in addition to this Ascend 170s. I have the Hsu already hooked up and wow it sure was a drastic improvement over my pathetic JBL e150 sub. Tomorrow evening Marc Sherman will be present with his speakers up against the Ascends, by that time hopefull I'll have this cheap RadioShack speaker switch that I just bought today all set up and ready to go: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?MSCSProfile=745D84CBF04D14A48AA6FF9C89D722 C0BA68C1B04FE384678A5285FCD6E056B17AF21627FDABE316B90B3C038D68EBD6B7F9F3BD1712EA A9951ACB2590A05C6517EFE46941FEFDD1985D4EFD6321F5E70B4DE9B6C1D45512DCD9FB3DBCACB9 47597B263604AB5907E1490BE7E8C692C0884BAA7A3344CAFF650531F0C38B66E97479515C580E6F CD&cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=40-132# |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1405 Registered: Mar-05 | PS. Another observation regarding the Lings' lower sensitivity: earlier in the evening my wife was watching TV using the Lings in 2-channel mode with the Marantz as pre-amp and when I took over the remote from her while she went to get something from the kitchen, I noticed that I had to crank it to around -5db to understand dialogue comfortably, whereas with the 340s -15 is usually where I stop. To be honest all this is making a little curious to experiement with some of the dread Klipsch horns with their 97db sensitivity! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 330 Registered: May-05 | Edster, Great review thus far and I'm looking forward to hearing more of the comparison of the Lings and 170s and 340s and whatever else you can throw at em. I was intrigued that your experience somewhat parallels my own and I, too, was impressed by the bass thrown by Tim's little Lings, very impressive. A couple of points on review. Please let us know what amp or receiver you are using in the comparison because I believe you've got a couple and let us know what you're using for a source player. Also, it's nice to know when you're comparing with and without the sub as I felt like the 170s benefitted more from its addition. Good luck and keep up the reporting, this is really fun!!! Thanks again, Dave. |
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Barnacle Unregistered guest | If the speakers are that different in sensitivity you really need to level match to with-in 1.5dB with a sound meter or the difference in characteristics you hear could be a product of volume differences. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 309 Registered: Jul-04 | Nice review so far Edster I would get some Lings, but I already have Ascend 170s and Axiom M22s and Athena b1s - I don't think I need one more set. Maybe Edster will prove me wrong, though. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 107 Registered: Jul-05 | Ed: it isn't 97 dB on the K-horns. Its 104. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1087 Registered: Feb-04 | Ed: it isn't 97 dB on the K-horns. Its 104. Not sure he was talling about the KHorn. The RB-35 is at 96; the RB-25 is at 94. But yeah, with 104 dB sensitivity I watch movies at -23 dB or so on the volume dial. Reference level is at -17 dB on my h/k avr-325. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1406 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter's right, I was referring to the RB-25. If the K-horns have an additional 9db on them they must be truly scary stuff,lol! |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 112 Registered: Jul-05 | My mistake. In any event, it goes a long ways towards ensuring you don't overdrive your NAD setup. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1407 Registered: Mar-05 | Well, it's been a long night, Marc came over at 5:30 and we were comparing the 170s, Lings, his Soliloquys, and even a little bit of the 340s at the end before he had to leave for his band practice at 7pm. It was hard for me since we were listening to his CDs, none of which I was familiar with. The Soliloquys were handsome-looking speakers, a good 20-30% smaller than the 170s and Lings but heavier, with the density and weight of a brick---I could easily see throwing one at somebody and killing them! Some issues that came up: 1. "Bright/Detailed" vs. "Warm/Smooth" personal preferences. Marc definitely preferred the tremendous detail of his Solis which are sealed unlike the rear-ported Ascends & Lings. Personally I found them a bit shrill on a couple of recordings, but pleasant and interesting on others, especially at moderate volumes. We both agreed that the Ascends captured a lot more detail in the treble than the Lings. A lot of cymbals and high fast notes on accoustic guitars sounded muffled and shortened on the Lings. 2. Soundstage depth. Marc preferred the more forward sound of his Solis, closely followed by the 170s. He disliked the "recessed" soundstage of the Lings. I couldn't really decide which one I preferred in this respect---I did however feel that the Ascends were much more transparent than both the Lings and the Solis, to my ears music on the 170s seemed to spread out very widely and evenly, whereas the Solis were particularly localized, and the Lings somewhere in the middle. 3. "Good-" vs. "Boomy-" bass. Marc found the Lings overly boomy, I enjoyed their pronounced mid-bass. 4. Vocal reproduction, part 2. The Ascends to my ears clearly won out here. The Lings do better with male than female voices, which is probably the bass extension vs. mid/high-range detail issue. As I continued listening to just the 170s vs. the Lings after he left, I got to one of my favorite audition CDs, Suzanne Vega's "Nine Objects of Desire." There it struck me that the Lings DID sound boomy on the really low bass opening of "Caramel," while being very pleasant on the mid-bass opening of "Birthday." More disturbing was the garbling distortion that the Lings exhibited with deep bass when played at high volumes. Over the course of Marc's visit, using an SPL meter we had approximated that about 9 o'clock on my NAD's volume when listening to the Ascends was about equal to 10 o'clock for the Lings. But on Suzanne Vega's "Caramel," when I increased the volume to 10 o'clock the Lings started to resonate---whereas the Ascends handled 9 and even 10 o'clock without a hiccup. But how many listeners would actually enjoy such high volumes, especially in smaller rooms than mine, is an open question. Interesting thing is that with the 170s now set up (in between the Lings and the 340s) the Lings' rear ports are now pointed at the wrap around spaces on either side of my center wall...tomorrow I will experiment with putting them 1-2 feet directly in front of the wall! PS. I did finally get the $12.99 Radioshack speaker selector set up, it was kind of a pain but was worth it---much easier than leaping up and plugging/unplugging bananas all the time! Funny thing is, it really did seem to further debunk the mumbo jumbo about cables: I opened the switcher box just out of curiousity, discovered that inside was a bunch of tiny tiny (maybe 22-24 gauge) wiring...and here's the kicker: I did NOT hear one iota of difference in sound, lol. Well, more to come tomorrow. Need to get into male voices and other types of music. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1409 Registered: Mar-05 | Dakulish, No, I have not yet added the sub to the mix...manana! Interesting thing is that Marc thought the 170s provided plenty of bass, more than his Solis. Also I am using my NAD separates, I only use the Marantz receiver for DVDs. Am not sure if I will have time to do a HT comparison, I have to return the 170s by Wednesday. |
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Barnacle Unregistered guest | Any listening with a sub? I actually like club gatherings were I am not listening to music I know, as well as familiar pieces, and have a "sound" to in my mind. I feel it lets me hear how different speakers, etc, present the material instead of thinking it does not quite sound right from what I am used to. I think a combo of both new music and familiar pieces is a great way to audition multiple speakers at the same time, in the same room, with the same front end. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4768 Registered: May-04 | Ed - I'm in no hurry for the speakers and don't mind if you want to hold them for another few days. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 341 Registered: May-05 | Edster, Fantastic review and insights. It will be interesting to read your review as you have some time to experiment with the different speakers, speaker placement and addition of a sub. I am really lookikng forward to your continuing review and thoughts. I had to work with speaker wire as I prefer a bare connection over banana plugs so my switch over time was longer still and you always wonder if what you thought you remembered is what you actually heard but your review is confirming much of my experience. It was interesting that only in one song did I ever hear the Lings produce what i would have called a "muddy" midrange and a muffled base. When I added the 2200, I couldn't reproduce it and I never found the bass on the Lings "boomy" so I would be interested to know what type of music or song Mark was playing at the time. Tim will have a wealth of information at the end of this tour that he can use with his speaker construction, that's for sure. What an incredible benefit for tweaking and tuning the Lings to improve them further, and they're already pretty darn good. Keep the info. coming. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 409 Registered: Dec-03 | That's the best part of all this. The feedback I've gotten so far is great. How many designers get first hand feedback from actual consumers? If this motivates me to produce a better product it's worth the roller coaster ride. Thanks to everyone! |
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New member Username: QuinnPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-05 | Tim- Just got my computer back up and PMed you my contact info. I guess it is obvious I got my 170s to Eddie. Looking foward to my turn with the Lings. Quinn |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 410 Registered: Dec-03 | Got it, thanks. |
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New member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 7 Registered: Jul-05 | Howdy from Houston. I really appreciate Eddie letting me hop over and listen to the speakers. I was interested mainly in hearing the ascends. The music I brought over was indeed familiar to me. Bario Chino, Holly Cole, Bjork, Tierney Sutton were just a few of the choices familair to me on my "reference" system. I had never listened to music on the Soliloquy Sat 5s before and I was curious.( these are my HT surrounds). These are made for satellite home theater set ups with a sub ( or music with a sub) crossing over at 80HZ. This was evident on my BJORK selection where almost none of the low bass came through at all. Hints of it on the Ascend 170s and a bit more on the Lings. Eddie at the end on one song felt the Soliloquys sounded like the treble EQ needed to be turned down. It was an interesting experience because he and I pretty much were hearing and identifying the same thing but interpreting it differently. The Sols without a rear port ( sealed) cannot move air like a ported speaker. They are desgned that way. So what I hear is, frankly, some entry level high fidelity without the bottom. Eddie hears too much treble. The denisity of the cabinet means no resonance which may explain the expansive versus localized comment Eddie made. I will be setting up a vinyl only small system in a built in shortly and was really interested in how the Ascend 170s performed. The 340s are too big and need too much space beteen their port and the rear wall. So for me, the Sols plus a sub ( perhaps one of my UFW-10s) or the Ascend 170s alone might be a choice. Anyway, thanks for letting me horn in on this thread and Eddie thanks for your hospitality--well appreciated. Eddie's a nice guy and his roomie is not uncute as well. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1411 Registered: Mar-05 | > Eddie's a nice guy and his roomie is not uncute as well. Thanks Marc, it was great having you over and I'd love to sample more of your music collection as well as your other gear, particularly the UFW-10s. As for the "roomie"---well she's actually the wifey, God help me... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1412 Registered: Mar-05 | OK, put in another 2-3 hours today but switched over to the Marantz 5400 with the Hsu STF-2...whoa, what a difference! 1. The Lings sounded best to my ears on the Marantz with the high pass filter on (80 Hz setting) and the Hsu volume at about 9-10 o'clock. Went back to Suzanne Vega's "Caramel" and VOILA! No more garbling or distortion at high volumes. That HPF is a huge lifesaver for the Lings when cranked. 2. The Ascends sounded best with the HPF...and Hsu gain at about 2 o'clock. The Ascends lost a significant amount of fullness in the mids going from the NAD to the Marantz though. 3. On Source Direct mode (no filter, no sub) the Lings sounded much better on the Marantz than they did on the NAD...it really shows how a dramatic bass boost the NAD provides compared to the Marantz. For a speaker that already tilts towards bass extension, the NAD was way too much for the Lings. 4. The Ascends sounded their worst on the Marantz in Source Direct...thin and bright especially on fast accoustic guitars with male vocals (Gypsy Kings). 5. Both receivers were most comparable on the Marantz in 2-channel with HPF and sub. Today I definitely noticed more muffling of the mids and treble on the Lings at moderate levels, which lessened when I turned up the volume. The Ascends' phenomenal detail stayed constant at both moderate and high volume levels. Here are some quasi-educated guesses after today's listening: 2.1 setup with low/mid-level receiver and good sub: Ascend 3-1 2.0 setup with low/mid-level receiver, moderate levels: Lings 2-1 2.0 setup with NAD, high volumes: Ascend 2-1 2.0 setup with NAD, moderate volumes: tie---two different presentations with different compromises I haven't been able to hook up the Hsu to the NAD yet due to some wiring issues, but I'd imagine such a setup would tend to favor the Ascends at high volumes since the Lings are already boomy at high volumes on the NAD without a sub. The Hsu is certainly a huge improvement over my godawful JBL e150 though! Am eager to try out Marc's UFW-10 since it's supposed to be especially good for music. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 342 Registered: May-05 | Edster, You're doing a great job here and much appreciated especially when you let us know what components are being used. Are you still running the 170s when you say the Ascends or are you running your 340s? And, I'd be interested in your further comparison of the 170s and 340s since, as you know, I labored mightily before finally going with the 170s all around. What am I missing and what did I gain? Finally, I know you've probably told me before but what's your source for the DVDs and CDs? Thanks and keep it coming, this is great stuff. Dave |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1413 Registered: Mar-05 | Just an idea: I was thinking of getting a Panny sa-xr55 digital receiver for my bedroom system, this should go very well with the warmth of the Lings. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 343 Registered: May-05 | Also Mark, thanks for the additional review on the side by side and appreciate your thoughts, except for the "roomie" comment. It sounds like Ed's "roomie" has him already in balls and chain. Although, I did note Edster's earlier comment: "Sorry, Jan...being blissfully offspring-free (and hellbent on keeping it that way)," simply means that she just hasn't put the screws to him well enough yet and then, trust me, he'll be buying fewer speakers and more baby food. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1414 Registered: Mar-05 | yes and no, David. One of the primary reasons I took the plunge with her was because she also has zero reproductive ambitions, praises be unto Allah, Jesus, Jehovah and Buddha! Not easy to find these days I'm afraid. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1415 Registered: Mar-05 | yes David, it's all 170s I'm referring to. And my CDP is a Sony ES carousel. I'll try to do a 340s vs. 170s tonight if I have it in me. This stuff is kind of exhausting! That speaker switcher is a godsend...unfortunately switching is complicated by volume adjustments required due to the sensitivity differences between the Lings and 170s, and also subwoofer gain adjustments too! Sure wish I had 3 assistants who could take care of those 3 things every time so I wouldn't have to leave my listening position, for truly instant switching. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 347 Registered: May-05 | Ed, I've got three. I can honestly say that some of the absolute best days and worst days of my life involve the three kids and they're mostly grown. That's the praise to . . . part. SO, does that mean it's a zero sum game, I dunno. I guess it depends on the day. BUT I won't tell you two where to go from there, except possibly with new speakers and a universal DVD/CD player. LOL P.S. - so 170s or 340s, or are we keeping that part of our personal life secret, big guy? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 348 Registered: May-05 | Sorry about the P.S., we had crossing posts. Well, what the heck is your wife doing, put her to work. THEN, DUCK right after you ask her!!! |
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New member Username: QuinnPost Number: 2 Registered: Aug-05 | From my experiences you're experiencing the complete lack of coloration that the Ascend's have what you put in is what you get out of them. They add nothing to the signal they get. Likely why I climbed up to a Audio Refinement Complete front end with $600 speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 350 Registered: May-05 | Quinn, can you elaborate? "Likely why I climbed up to a Audio Refinement Complete front end with $600 speakers." Why would you pay $600 for the Ascends when they cost $358/pair online plus shipping. Or, do you mean you got two pairs, approximately $750 including shipping? Or, are you talking about some other speaker entirely that Edster has not even discussed? Sometimes, cryptic is too cryptic. |
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New member Username: CurtisPost Number: 1 Registered: May-04 | I think he means the CMT-340's which are $648 with stands! Great thread here! |
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New member Username: QuinnPost Number: 3 Registered: Aug-05 | Oops. Sorry. My HT is 170s L/R with 340CC, and 200 surrounds powered by a Marantz 7200. My 2 channel, to which I was referring, is 340s with an Audio Refinement Complete integrated(Alpha) and CDP. |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 2 Registered: May-04 | anybody in the L.A. area with Lings? |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 211 Registered: Apr-05 | Great info guys thanks Edster. Mark just out of curiosity where did you hear about Tierney Sutton? She is not what you would call mainstream. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 313 Registered: Jul-04 | Is this the legendary Curtis of Ascend list fame aka Curtis "metal tweeters" Chang on the Axiom list? Welcome |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 3 Registered: May-04 | hahahaha...yeah...that's me...but that was a LONG time ago. Thanks for the welcome Don. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1416 Registered: Mar-05 | OK, just got back home, probably no more listening tonight but am starting to formulate a theory about speakers based on what I've been hearing the last few days. Here goes---if looking at budget bookshelves (under say, $1000) a crude generalization is that you are going to have to choose between one of these two types: A. "Bright" and/or "forward" speakers >> lighter, faster and more rigid/sensitive woofers tend to bring out more detail in the upper-mids and especially highs? B. "Warm" and/or "laid-back" speakers >> slower but more elastic woofers tend to favor bass and lower-mids? The other variable here is woofer size---the 170s are 6.5" while the Lings are 4.5"---how does that affect the sound? What other factors am I missing here in trying to figure out WHY these two speakers sound very different? Since I know very little about speaker materials and design, I was hoping that some of you could enlighten me on the above. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1417 Registered: Mar-05 | Obviously the "ideal" budget bookshelf, if any such exists, would achieve the best possible balance between A & B? Probably wouldn't be "budget" anymore, I imagine! |
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New member Username: QuinnPost Number: 4 Registered: Aug-05 | Aerogel is used by Ascend, and others, because of it's light weight and stiffness allow for very fast transient response and minimal "ringing". I don't know enough about Adire's XBL technology to do anything but guess that the ability for the cone to travel that far for that much bass doesn't allow for quick recovery for the detail differences you guys heard. Didn't you say the details got much better on the Lings when you used an 80hz crossover and no longer sent the bass demands below that to them? As they say all speaker design is compromises. |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 4 Registered: May-04 | XBL2 is to linearize the motor strength over the excursion of the driver. By doing that, you effectively lower distortion due to differences in motor strength at different points of excursion. |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 5 Registered: May-04 | There are a lot of factors that go into designing a speaker. Two different speaker designers, different goals, different techniques, etc. All adds up to different speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 314 Registered: Jul-04 | Curtis It is funny - I first heard rave reviews of the Ascends on the Axiom site. And I was advised to buy more Axioms (surrounds) on the Ascend site to match my M22s. I came along to the Axiom site after all the "metal" comment reactions were played out, so I don't really know the heat of the conflict at the time. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 315 Registered: Jul-04 | Another side note: Anyone in the ring of the lings and the readers about things of lings interested in showing your face? I found it really interesting when I saw pictures of people on the Axiom site. I saw Curtis and his two? kids (I forget now for sure). If anyone is interested I could start another thread. Perhaps pictures of people standing next to the lings as they make their way around the country? Or by their other speakers if they didn't get in the ring? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1418 Registered: Mar-05 | er, Don...I only allow myself to be photographed for a sizable fee usually in the triple to quadruple digits (before decimal points). Even my local department of public safety had to pay me before I'd let them put my picture on my driver's license...that's how I paid for much of my system! |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 6 Registered: May-04 | Don....the "metallic" issue all happenned three years ago when I was comparing Ascends, Aperions, Axioms, and Rockets. I used the word "metallic" in describing the Axioms, and some people got upset. Amie restored order and actually called me to apologize for forum members' behavior. It has been all water under the bridge since. Yeah...I had myself and two kids in that Axiom thread. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 317 Registered: Jul-04 | Anyone got a picture of Edster? Or of what you think Edster looks like? How about Dakulis? I am a little sheepish about my pictures as well, but could probably find a good one or two. |
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New member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 8 Registered: Jul-05 | Stof- About Tierney Sutton- I consider her to be VERY mainstream- but Zebras are only Zebras if you don't see them frequently so to speak. I have been a musician for 30 years. I have recent CDs from Sevara Nazarkhan ( Uzbeckistan) Ishtar ( Albania) Lori McKenna ( England) Monte Montgomery ( Austin Texas!!!) Buena Vista Social Club ( Cuba)-- you get the picture. I watch what speaker reviewers use to review speakers and why. I watch the audiogon to die for music threads. I listen to Xm satellite radio ( like20 of their channels) and I have been playing in bands and studios for a long time with other folks into music as much as me. And most importantly-- I'd like to think I am open minded--especially about music! Edster- you asked about why speakers sound different. Well--hmm--beyond the quality and materials of the drivers- there is the internal wiring; and there are crossover frequncies and orders( first second third, fourth) with regards to when audio info is produced by which driver. Cabinet design is critical as well. In fact this affects the Lings relative to the ascends by my observation-even the way drivers are "packed" with regards to surrounds- which affects their excursion abilities- makes a difference. If we can agree that there is some midrange mud on the Lings relative to the Ascends for instance, and both produce midrange and bass from their mid-woofers-- you can see that boomy bass and midrange mud are related. My guess is the port and woofer are not optimally paired as far as construction and size on the Ling. The port width/woofer ratio may be too high for the Lings. This is an overly focused guess of a piece of what the result we heard was all about. Anyway- so much for the blah blah |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 318 Registered: Jul-04 | http://stevelaslo.xpreshost.com/people/Edster.jpg Nah - not edster Ok, I will quit before I offend anyone. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1419 Registered: Mar-05 | HEY THERE, Don! I'm gonna have to charge you for that one. Better yet, I'll just bill ecoustics for every time somebody clicks on the link, lol. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 353 Registered: May-05 | Don, Welcome back, I thought we'd lost you. And, I feel honored to be in the glow of greatness with the introduction of Mr. Chang. Quinn thanks for the explanation, now I know what you're talking about and where the $600 come from. I think we need to get Mark with Tim and maybe this "muddying" could get cleared up and we'd all be really happy. Now, I'll just wait in silence until Ed comes back with further light and knowledge or, at least, a picture. If he's not posing maybe he'll just add his "not uncute roomie." LOL |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 319 Registered: Jul-04 | David I was on vacation and following the drama on these lists on my blackberry, but I don't think it would work to try to post from the thing. |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 7 Registered: May-04 | "I feel honored to be in the glow of greatness with the introduction of Mr. Chang." oh brother...  |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 320 Registered: Jul-04 | "Oh brother" The great Curtis says as Edster, Barnacle, Don and David all bow down and exclaim "We're not worthy!" |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 418 Registered: Dec-03 | "....maybe this "muddying" could get cleared up and we'd all be really happy." I'm already working on it. I find it interesting that running the Lings on a Plinius 8100 at fairly high volumes didn't show this. I'm not critizing anybody's equipment, just that this may be an example of the importance of component matching. Regardless, I'm working on the problem and I thank you guys for bringing it to my attention. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 419 Registered: Dec-03 | I keep bringing up the Plinius but please don't think that means I believe everyone should have an expensive amp to drive budget speakers. |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 8 Registered: May-04 | Tim...I think the difference in amplification is important. Maybe you should get amplifier(s)/receiver(s) that a typical user would have that may be purchasing your speakers would have. That said, like Quinn, I have heard my Ascends with different amplification, and it does make a difference. It is subtle, but noticeable. I am currently trying a pair of NuForce amps (www.nuforce.com) and I am addicted.....unfortunately, they are more than I am willing to spend(that may change), so these will go back to their rightful owner and I will put my ATI back in the mix. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 355 Registered: May-05 | Tim, Geez, "honey, I'm home and I just bought a $2000 amp to go with my (5) surround sound speakers that I bought for $1000 BUT I got a really good deal on it, honest." Yeah, that will work. As I explained, I noticed the "muddying" in the initial listen and it seemed to be pretty much gone when I hooked up the Denon 2200 so I attributed it, mostly, to a very poor source. That said, I didn't push the Lings or Ascends with real power in 2 channel mode and I was running at 80 hz on my crossover for the sub in HT mode so I probably didn't examine either speaker under the same circumstances as Edster has reported. Everyone got that? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1800 Registered: Jan-05 | heh... Whenever I take a quick glance at this title, I think of the Ring2. It's going to be released in a few weeks on DVD too. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 321 Registered: Jul-04 | I wonder if my dainty system could play Ring 2? Actually my use is almost directly opposite of Paul's - I hardly ever watch movies in 5.1 HT, and when I do my TV is small and out of place so I lose a lot of the effect. The problem is my dainty living room - it is too small! |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 322 Registered: Jul-04 | T8 is already working on it - how is that for customer service? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 323 Registered: Jul-04 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-theater/135520.html Paul's living room is much nicer and his setup is much better than mine is for dvd watching - that is for sure. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1803 Registered: Jan-05 | Well, I watched "The Ring" part 1, and it's not the type of movie with big LFE effects so I doubt Ring2 will be either. As for my movie setup??....thanks, I love it and it gets plenty of good use. I bought "Bad Boys2" with Will Smith today, and will watch that tonight and probably another too |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 9 Registered: May-04 | If I remember, "The Ring" was not even in 5.1....or had hardly any surround sound at all. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 420 Registered: Dec-03 | Try NASCAR for IMAX. ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1804 Registered: Jan-05 | It was 5.1..... Nowdays, all new release movies worth a grain of salt are in 5.1. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 357 Registered: May-05 | Paul, I just checked out the picture, what are those CVs, maybe 2 feet tall and 18" wide, I thought you said they were BIG? I wouldn't be caught dead with those tiny, little things in my HT setup. Now, the SVS sub, that's another matter altogether. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 358 Registered: May-05 | Edster, We need another review, you're losing this thread and I'm been there before. I no longer have any control over the Ascend vs. Lings thread. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1806 Registered: Jan-05 | Dak, Keep in mind that those speakers are sitting next to a 65" Mitsu that stands about 5.5" tall to help you keep your proper perspective. Off the top of my head, I dont know their exact height measurements. They're a similar height compared to many of todays towers. ya know....around 40"ish tall, except they're about 19"square weighing in at nearly 100lbs each. See those teensy weensy dual midranges in those speakers????? Those are dual 6.5" drivers to help assist with perspective. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 831 Registered: Mar-05 | See that teensy weensy brain, thats what happens when you combine a monster SVS sub with CV "bass boxes". The bass shrinks it. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 832 Registered: Mar-05 | Paul, as much grief as we give you, you don't get personal and combative with your comebacks, I appreciate that. Your alright in my book, even though you don't like cheese and wine. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 14 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul's living room is much nicer and his setup is much better than mine is for dvd watching - that is for sure Sure, specially His Audio/Video Rack ...LOL. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1811 Registered: Jan-05 | "See that teensy weensy brain, thats what happens when you combine a monster SVS sub with CV "bass boxes". The bass shrinks it." ------------ OMG..... hahahahahahahahah I have to admit, that got me laughing. Thanks Shrinkage, anyone??? Sincerely, George Kastanza |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1812 Registered: Jan-05 | Joeseph, Nothing personal is ever taken. And Zorro, so you like my component rack, eh?? You want to buy it?? HEH |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 360 Registered: May-05 | Paul, I've got to agree with Joseph on this one, you do have a great sense of humor. AND, I knew that the CVs were fairly tall. I figured the TV base at about 18" to 24" and the speakers were well up the TV as is BUT I couldn't resist poking some fun at those huge puppies. I still think my Chessie could knock them over, though, especially with a running start and couple of dog bisquits attached to them. LOL |
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Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 15 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul, Sure I'll buy it! ...I offer $2.99 Including the CV's Heh |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1423 Registered: Mar-05 | Quickie tonight, too many things on my plate today... Went through one of my favorite CDs, Santana's "Supernatural" which was kind of a departure from most of the other music I'd been using. For those of you not familiar with this CD, it's very dynamic---the music swings wildly in tempo and complexity, lots of strong driving punchy rhythmns, torrential drumming...here, even when using the 80 Hz crossover on the Marantz and cranking the Hsu gain all the way to almost 3 o'clock, the 170s simply couldn't keep up. The Lings (with Hsu set at about 9 o'clock) only started to distort at about -5 RL (about 90-95 db) with kick-drums, below that they held up very well. Maybe if I set the crossover a little higher, 100 or 120 Hz, they might handle kick-drums better. The 170s could go louder (110db) without distortion and more detail but the Hsu couldn't keep up, so the music endeded up kind of weak and hollow-sounding. Maybe with a tube sub or a sealed sub the 170s might stand a better chance here. At moderately loud volumes (70-80db) the Lings were also way ahead...really amazing quick-yet-substantial mid-bass, warm guitar and male vocals. They made me want to get up and dance, or at least bob my head like a kid at a Metallica show. Tomorrow I hope to do more of the same music, also will switch back to the NAD to see how the 170s sound with the extra NAD bass boost. Right now I'd say that the Ascends are clearly better for slow-tempo music with lots of drawn out midrange notes and subtle highrange details, but for get-up-and-shake-yo-boody jams the Lings wipe the floor with them. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 324 Registered: Jul-04 | So, let me get this right The Hsu couldn't keep up? The Ascend are not made to carry that much bass, so that is understandable that they wouldn't do well on beat/dance music. But the Hsu STF-2? The STF-2 is not Hsu's best sub of course, but it is supposed to be one of the best for a budget system. So, on dance the Lings beat the Hsu and Ascends together? Wow. (I was thinking of getting a Hsu STF-2) |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 325 Registered: Jul-04 | Hey - it is 8am here in political-ville. Time for you all to wake up and get on line! No sleeping in today! |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 214 Registered: Apr-05 | Edster that's quite a claim about HSU not being able to keep up. Although 9:00 setting on the volume dial is rather low. with the setting at about 11:00 it literaly shakes my 20x25x10 living room. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1425 Registered: Mar-05 | What I meant was that the Hsu sub while certainly no slouch is still more adept at HT than at music. In HT you tend to get slow extremely deep rumbles and explosions, in music you are likely to get a succession of multiple and very fast bass notes that are not as low as in HT but they follow each other very rapidly...so for the sub to "keep up" with music it has to be able to reproduce those bass notes in equally rapid time WITH the speaker. The Hsu, having a much bigger and heavier woofer than the Ascend and esp. the Lings, couldn't do that. However since the Lings already produce a fair amount of mid-bass even with a 80Hz crossover (forcing me to set the Hsu gain knob at 9 o'c clock as opposed to at 2-3 o'clock with the Ascends) this lag-time was barely noticeable. Since my musical tastes run more towards music with less percussion and slower beats (jazz, classical, vocals), this wouldn't influence my buying decision much. A person who likes dance music, hard and fast music, might be better served with the Lings. Tonight I'll audition the soundtrack to one of my all-time favorite movies, "Trainspotting" which should again favor the Lings. Also will dig up some old Zepp and Metallica CDs. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1427 Registered: Mar-05 | Stof, well the fact that the Lings require only a 9 o'clock sub setting versus the Ascends requiring a 2-3 o'clock setting really shows just how much bass the Lings put out in comparison, even WITH the 80Hz crossover. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1428 Registered: Mar-05 | Also you have to figure in that my room is a cavernous 6000 cubic feet and the sub and speakers are floating against a center wall that's open at the top and has a kitchen behind it, so I think in order for me to have the kind of rumbling you describe I'd probably need a PAIR of STF-2s if not STF-3s. |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 215 Registered: Apr-05 | If you have it try the Pirates of the Caribbean. For music you may want to try the Dark Side of the Moon. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1429 Registered: Mar-05 | My conclusion is that for the Ascends, when playing this type of fast-beat music on an entry/mid level receiver like the Marantz 5400, would need a REALLY good music sub like Art's Era sub (which like the Rocket UFW-10 is sealed if I'm not mistaken) to provide the kind of fast bass response that the Lings produce even with a slower HT sub. This might be offset by use of a power source with more inherent bass response like the NAD though. I'm still working on connecting the Hsu to the NAD but the NAD doesn't have any crossover settings so the Lings will probably require the sub to be set at like 7 o'clock or 6:30, lol. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 327 Registered: Jul-04 | Ah - Trainspotting - the true test of clarity of any speaker. If you can understand what those blokes are saying in their Scottish brogues - that will be a good test! |
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New member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 10 Registered: May-04 | Great stuff! I have had an STF-2 setup in a 5400 cubic foot room, it worked great for music. I don't recall trying dance music, but I did play some pretty bass heavy stuff. This is in my Parents' home with CMT-340's. Does the Marantz have a distance setting for the sub? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 847 Registered: Mar-05 | Hey Ed, have you tried both speakers on the NAD without a sub. Maybe with the bass eq switched to on(if yours has that) and see how they fair? |
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New member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 9 Registered: Jul-05 | Eddie- There is a Houston HT group meet on August 13th at a very well constructed home based HT. If you need further info--let me know! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 368 Registered: May-05 | Edster, Interesting. I have not broken out any of my old hard rock albums to play with the Ascends and M & K sub. I'll have to do that and see if I hear a problem. (Now, my MK has two 12" subs, one floor directed and one outward directed so it's gone a fair amount of push.) This is fun but, by my calculation, after the Lings have circled the globe, I'll be like 97 years old and deaf before all the reviews are in. LOL |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 11 Registered: May-04 | LOL!! |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 12 Registered: May-04 | I love reading about new stuff. I know what Ascends sound like, I know what Axioms sound like, and I know what Rockets sound like. So reading about them all the time gets boring. The best part is when I have listen to stuff in common with other folks, and we have similar opinions.....so then their opinions on other stuff that I haven't heard are more interesting to me. |
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