C$500 or less CD players
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1300 Registered: Feb-04 | Looking for a good sounding CD player under C$500. The contenders are: NAD C521BEE (C$450) http://www.nadelectronics.com/cd_players/C521BEE_framset.htm Cambridge Audio Azur 540C (C$490) http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=15&Title=Azur+540C Other suggestions? The question is which sounds best? And do they sound substantially better than a cheap DVD player playing CDs such as an inexpensive universal player that can switch off video circuitry: Yamaha DVD-S657 (C$250) http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/products/ht/dvds657.html Yamaha DVD-S1500 (C$600) http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/DVD_CD/DVDS1500.htm or even one that doesn't switch off video circuits: Pioneer DV-588A-S for C$150 |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1553 Registered: Feb-05 | Hi Peter, I did some research at Stereotypes in Portland (an NAD and Cambridge dealer) today. The NAD and Cambridge have about equal sond quality. The NAD is a little warmer and more musical and the Cambridge a bit more detailed and clinical. Again it really matters what your preferences are and what equipment will be used with it. Teri and I both agreed that with your speakers and receiver the NAD would most likely be your best bet. It's a bit more forgiving of poor recordings and would likely groove nicely with your Klipsch speakers. If you are looking to spend a just a bit more the Cambridge Audio Azur 540D gives outstanding DVD-A, DVD, and CD performance. It is the first DVD player that I have heard that is comparable to the NAD C542 for redbook playback. In my opinion it still comes up a bit shy, but not much. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1304 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Art! Feels like having a personnal shopper! The interesting thing is that the Azur 540D appears to be the same price as the Azur 540C in Canada (C$490). So If I get as good or better CD playback, plus DVD and DVD-A, then that seems a good deal! I still couldn't use SACD but I could investigate high-res with DVD-A and that has an appeal to it. (See http://audioshop.on.ca/cambridgedigital.htm for Canadian prices) For comparison a NAD C542 is C$700! It does do HDCD and I have a few Holly Cole CDs that are HDCD. She's a great jazz vocalist; check her out at http://www.hollycole.com/multimedia.html The only downside is I think I get NAD cheaper than Cambridge Audio. The store that sells NAD is about to move and have a big sale, and my credit card has a bonus points system that I can cash in at that store too. I'll have some thinking to do! Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1307 Registered: Feb-04 | About the 540D DVD player from: http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/cambridge_audio_azur_540d.htm The Azur 540D was also a surprisingly capable CD player. Most budget DVD players sound somewhat lean, and those whose sounds do have some weight and body often obscure bass and end up sounding thick or muddy. But the 540D carried the clear sound and tight bass it had produced from movie soundtracks over to its CD sound. Jennifer Warnes' The Hunter [CD, Attic ACD 1344], which can sound boomy on some systems, sounded fast and responsive with the 540D. Although the Cambridge didn't totally plumb the depths, the bass on "Rock You Gently" and "Way Down Deep" was rich and full without sounding bloated. The more sedate "Lights of Lousianne" was sweet and ethereal, but the strings still had a great deal of presence and weight. That's good! The receiver needs a little more technical background since he says: The audio processing includes support for DVD-Audio and built-in decoding for Dolby Digital, but not DTS. DTS signals can still be passed via the digital output for external decoding by a receiver or processor, but the Azur 540D will not provide any signal from its analog outputs from DTS discs. and later: The final dogfight from the remastered DTS soundtrack of Top Gun was full of the roar of jet engines, but the 540D was also able to deftly reproduce the somewhat cheesy-sounding background music as well. At certain points in this scene, the synthesizer riffs in the rear channels were amazingly clear. And it's the receiver doing the decoding... This doesn't in any way compromise the rest of the review. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1252 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi Art & Peter, I own and have used an Azur 540D in my home theater system for over a year. In that time it has performed flawlessly. I think at it's price point it is a true bargain in todays market. It's CD performance is as good as any $500 player out there, but cannot match the performance of a dedicated high end CD player, such as the CAL I use in my music only system. Anyone looking at DVD players should give the Cambridge 540D an audition. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1313 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Rick. Do you mean that it sounds as good as a dedicated CD player costing $500? Or any $500 DVD player? If the former, then I like that! I don't want to spend $1000 on one now... |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1253 Registered: Dec-03 | Peter, Sorry for the confusion. For a combo player I think it does CD very well. It will hang with most $500 and under dedicated players. However I have always felt that a dedicated CD player will outperform a combo player of the same price. If music is most important(redbook CD), then I would consider the 640C. Very nice at $500. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1335 Registered: Feb-04 | Okay. I really need to listen to a CD player in-house. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1256 Registered: Dec-03 | Well said. Have fun! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1352 Registered: Feb-04 | I have a lead on a used Rotel RCD-02 (for about the price of a new NAD C521BEE). Comments on that? I'd have to buy it without any home testing... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 824 Registered: Jun-05 | The RCD-o2 is a much better cd player than the 521,I would check out the Onix xcd88 it is essentially a music hall cd25 for half of the price thru www.av123.com to my ears it is better than the the RCD-02 and the 542 and it is the most upgradeble out of all those CD players,its ton of upgrades for them and its going for $299 and it is $600 thru music hall,it is actually a Shandling,the best deal you can get in a cd player and then later on you have the luxury of making it rival some really highend players with all the Cap upgrades they have for it. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1353 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Tawaun, The Onix looks interesting. I'd have to order it into Canada and pay duties, brokerage fees and 15% tax. Still worth it compared to a US$390 slightly used Rotel RCD-02 ? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1768 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter you can get a B-stock xcd-88 for $250 from them, that should help offset all the duties etc. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1355 Registered: Feb-04 | Is that an endorsement Edster? :-) The B-stock listed on their web site has a defect: "NOTE! This player does not sit perfectly flat (the chassis is torqued slightly)." So... between the new Onix and the used Rotal RCD-02? Who votes Rotel? :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1770 Registered: Mar-05 | no, it's an invitation for you to be an ecoustics guinea pig, like I will soon be with the Panny xr55! : ) I am plenty happy with the SQ I'll be getting with the Marantz cc4300 that's arriving tomorrow, $142 shipped. Didn't read the defect description though...geez, that's kinda scary. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 843 Registered: Jun-05 | Peter Onix has the new one to for $50 bucks more and yes I would rather have it than the Rotel a little warmer sounding and better slam in the bass. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1356 Registered: Feb-04 | To cover all the bases, there's a (2003) Pioneer Elite DV-45A universal player for US$250 on audiogon. Recommended? Google turns up this favorable review: http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/pioneer_elite_dv45a.htm I'll admit that buying the used Rotel is less risky than the Onix (no tax, no shipping, no shipping damage, no UPS brokerage fees). |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 847 Registered: Jun-05 | You mean cheaper Peter,look shipping is shipping,its always a risk,but since all of your choices are mailorders then,go for the best sound and thats the xcd 88. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1357 Registered: Feb-04 | My choices so far, none of which I have heard... Cambridge Audio Azur 540C (CD) C$490 Cambridge Audio Azur 540D (DVD, CD) C$490 NAD C521BEE (CD) C$450 NAD C542 (CD, HDCD) C$700 Onix xcd-88 (CD, HDCD) US$300 + shipping + brokerage Rotel RCD-02 (CD, HDCD) $390 used (no taxes!) Pioneer Elite DV-45A (DVD, CD, SACD, DVDA) C$325 used (no taxes!) |
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Anonnn Unregistered guest | mr tawun what makes you such an expert on what the best sound is??? why not say "in my opinion" you are not the expert here and what makes you qualified? is there an industry that revolves around your huge ego? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 849 Registered: Jun-05 | Look silly little Anon impersonator,we are not on here playing games if wanna play go play your X-box! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 850 Registered: Jun-05 | Peter its hard to beleive the xcd-88 is cheaper than every one of those units in Canada Woah! that makes it a inceadible bargain! |
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Anonni Unregistered guest | did i bruise yo ego? you did not anwer the question. what makes you such a friggin'expert on what the best sound is? don't avoid it by throwing a tantrum. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 854 Registered: Jun-05 | Because apparently im not like Paul im not gonna critisize any thing I havent heard.Every product that I comment on I have heard and most of it I have heard very extensively,so am a expert yes thats my job,do I know every single componant no knowone does,thats thousands and thousands of gear to listen to if I could hear everything I would and I will listen to as much as I can,have I listened to a lot of it yes,90% of what is brought up on this board I have heard it,so does that answer your question? |
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Anonnnn Unregistered guest | is zat how yo lure little boys to your loft? by pretending to be something yur not lol |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1358 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Tawaun. What I meant is that there's risk of damage shipping from the US using UPS, and returning a defective unit back to the US is still expensive because of custom issues. The Rotel is sold used by a friend of a friend in Quebec City (200 miles away). That's too far to borrow and try for an evening, but I could pick it up durting my next visit there and not worry about shipping it. With shipping, taxes and brokerage feees, the US$299 Onix could easily turn out to be C$530, so it's more expensive than the Rotel and the NAD C521BEE, and comparable to the Cambridge Audio Auzur 540C (or D). I might be able to get a NAD on sale soon from the local store (no shipping), or perhaps a store demo at a discount, since the store that carries them will be moving soon. Plus, that store has a no-interest 36-month payment plan. Wish I could audition these things. I have two audiophile neighbours. One says he barely tells the difference between his C$1200 Denon CD player and his DVD player playing CDs (don't know the models), and the other says I might get better sound than my inexpensive DVD player if I spent C$800 on a CD player. He's not even sure about that. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1776 Registered: Mar-05 | > the other says I might get better sound than my inexpensive DVD player if I spent C$800 on a CD player. Peter I'll bet he has a Sony DVD player. Good to hear about your two neighbors though, I was starting to think that there was something wrong with my hearing! : ) |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1359 Registered: Feb-04 | Good to hear about your two neighbors though, I was starting to think that there was something wrong with my hearing! : ) Meaning that you also don't detect much differences between units? I don't know... You'd think my old C$300 DVD player might be as good as today's Pioneer US$100 unit, which you quickly eliminated! If I had to judge from your shootout, I would have thought that any CD player from my list would be hard to differentiate from eachother but likely much better than what I have now. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1780 Registered: Mar-05 | Sony supposedly is the best sounding mass market CD and DVD maker, some people add Phillips to that list too. I wouldn't say that ANY cheap DVD player will sound similar...that Pioneer certainly had a much harsher sound, and my $65 Panasonic DVD player doesn't do music too well either. What I'd wager though is that a $120 Sony CD player (not the ES line like mine) probably is not real far behind from an "audiophile" CD player up to $500...subtle rather than dramatic differences. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1360 Registered: Feb-04 | I am plenty happy with the SQ I'll be getting with the Marantz cc4300 that's arriving tomorrow, $142 shipped. Art's old unit? How about the Marantz DV-6500 universal player? I hear it's C$700 here: - 192 kHz/24-bit audio D/A converters - Audio EX mode (video off) - Bass Management for both SACD and DVD-A |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1782 Registered: Mar-05 | no I got it from accessories4less.com don't know anything about the 6500, it seems a bit unnecessary for my needs since have no desire to start buying DVD-A/SACDs with their outrageous prices and crappy selection |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1361 Registered: Feb-04 | If I'm reconsidering universal players, there's the Denon 1920 which has similar features than the Marantz DV-6500: Pure Direct Mode lets you turn off the video circuits and front-panel display for improved audio clarity from all your music. Burr-Brown DSD-1608, 24 bit, 192 kHz Audio DACs with discrete decoding of PCM and DSD audio signals. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1571 Registered: Feb-05 | I have the DV6400 (same as the DV6500) in my media storage room with my little 20 inch Toshiba TV. It used to be my main universal player until I bought the Denon DVD2910. The Denon trumps it in every way. The Marantz is a case of too little technology for too much money. If you were to find one at a really good price it might be worth it but I'd bet money to marbles that the new Denon DVD1920 would out perform it. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1362 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Art! Any comments about the rest of the thread? For instance, the used Rotel RCD-02 for C$390 ? |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1264 Registered: May-05 | Peter, When reading this from the top is was thinking "Denon" which model, well your guess is as good as mine. But seeing I only use the two DVD players for CD leistering like the Pioneer DV-525 and the Sony DVP-S336 which sound fine, though a dedicated CD will be more choice. Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1363 Registered: Feb-04 | Hmmm. So add the Denon 2910 to the list as well... A refurb from www.ecost.com would cost me: Subtotal: C$515.91 Shipping: C$16.14 Handling: C$22.16 GST / HST: C$36.11 Total Price: C$590.32 (Equivalent to a local purchase of C$515 + taxes.) It's about the same price as the Cambridge Audio Azur 540C (or D) and a tad more than a NAD C521BEE. Probably less than a Denon 1920 purchased locally (unknown price). How old is the Denon 2910? Is it worth considering? It is listed at a MSRP of C$1170. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1265 Registered: May-05 | Peter, Well I do like the "Yamaha" DVD-S1500 and the layout of the back that was sexy looking. Ashley  |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1364 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Andy, The S1500 was disqualified in another thread: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/156454.html --- It's a toss-up for me now between a universal DVD player such as the Denon 2910 or 1920 (which would you get?), or a dedicated CD player such as the used Rotel or perhaps the Onix. I wonder if the difference with these standalone CD players would be worth it. In another forum, I'm told that there isn't much difference between all DVD and CD players for redbook before I get to CD players such as Cary, CEC, Copland, Classé CDP100. I really don't know what to do... |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | Peter, If you can afford the Denon 2910 (released end 2003) then it's a no brainer with decent CD playback, superb SACD and DVD-A as well as various future proof video and digital outputs. Some of the VERY good stand alone Cd players might be slightly better for redbook, but for a very good all rounder I wouldn't go past it for the money. Does it come with warranty? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1365 Registered: Feb-04 | I don't know about the warranty. I presume so, but buying it from the US would complicate matters a lot anyway. http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=176661 They state "call us" for availability, so they likely don't have any this minute. But I could check in once in a while if I decided that's what I want. |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | Sorry Peter, the 2910 is the current 2005 model but was released around Sept last year (I think). I was getting confused with the 2200 being the previous years model without some of the latest goodies. Good luck with your ultimate decision. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1366 Registered: Feb-04 | Hmmm. That makes it even more appealing then. I'm very confused. On another forum, the audiophiles are suggesting that I should be looking at used C$1000 players instead of C$500 players. They say the difference is substantial. I just don't think I'm there yet. I won't hear what they hear and then they rightly say I need to spend $5000 on amplification to make it work. |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | It's easy to get swayed by high quality, but unfortunately most of us need to live within our means. I am somewhat hypocritical in this regard because I could not really afford the equipment we have purchased. But we have not gone overboard either. With much of the hi-fi gear to choose from you can spend an awful lot for only small increments of improved sound quality. If the sound of your component lets you enjoy the music then you should have accomplished what you set out for. If you want to listen to the system then that's another story and can be a truly expensive one. My Denon DVD-2900 (RRP here $1999AU) is only a very small margin ahead of our Marantz CC-4300 (RRP $549) for redbook playback (I thought it was the other way around until I realised I had made a set-up error). Unless doing a critical listening test one would be hard pressed to notice the difference. Of course there will always be is much better stuff out there, but at what cost and what time and energy to fine THE ONE? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1367 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Rantz. Makes sense... The most bang for the buck in terms of redbook playback is to buy the used Rotel. The Denon 2910 refurb would be riskier (what if it's broken when it gets here from the US? what if the sound is only marginally better than what I have now?) but more rewarding for SACD playback; I could finally listen to Diana Krall in full high-res! The easiest for cash outlay is to go with NAD at my local store (36 month no interest plan). Decisions, decisions. :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1799 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter, in case you're curious how the Marantz 4300 turned out: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/158402.html |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1371 Registered: Feb-04 | After, repeating here what I wrote there so nothing gets lost: -- So at US$150 I should just buy that as my dedicated CD player and forget about the Rotel RCD-02, or NAD C521BEE or Denon 2910 refurb? It's that good? --- The Marantz CC4300 has a MSRP of C$400 here, so it's nearly the (local) price as the Cambridge Audio Azur 540C or the NAD C521BEE (and more than the used Rotel RCD-02). Thus US$150 is a very good price but ww.accessories4less.com does not accept orders out of the US... Gotta cross it off my list... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 867 Registered: Jun-05 | Peter the Onix is comparable to the 542,and azure 640 its in a differant higher class than the azure 540 and 521bee,so if these 2 units cost that in Canada than the Onix is a striking bargain. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1373 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks. I was told that the Nad 542 is bright? Also, Would you put the Rotel RCD-02 in the same league as the NAD 542 and Onix? Lastly, how much redbook CD playback quality would I give up going with the Denon DVD-2910 universal instead? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1375 Registered: Feb-04 | I know I change my mind everyday, but right now I'm leaning towards the Cambridge Audio Azur 540D DVD-A player for C$489 (about the same price as in the US). I'd try to deal the 15% taxes away. I could use it as a DVD player, moving the old DVD player to the living room. I could buy all my favorite Diana Krall CDs again as DVD-A. According to Art, Rick Barnes and someone on another forum, it's a good performer. Art said it's nearly as good as the more expensive (C$700) NAD C542 CD player. That should mean skipping on the used Rotel RCD-02 for C$390 and spending a little more. While the Rotel has good reviews, I feel I could get equivalent redbook CD from the CA 540D and get a decent DVD-A player at the same time. The alternative, for the same cost, is buying both the Rotel CD player and the C$150 Pioneer universal player as a DVD player. But then I would be compromising on DVD-A playback. I'll admit that the Onix has me wondering, as lots of people on another forum says there is a world of difference once you get over the C$1000 mark and into the multi-thousand dollar player. By that account, the Onix is a clone of a C$1000 player so might play at that level! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1376 Registered: Feb-04 | I found a used Arcam DV-88P for C$600. I'm told it's a better CD and DVD player than the Cambridge Audio 540D (which is no surprise considering it costs more used than the CA does new). Any opinions? This is actually a tad more expensive than a new Onix or a new CA 540D. Would the Arcam play redbook CDs better than the CA 540D would play DVD-A? (Considering I can start stacking up on DVD-A...) |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | http://www.homecinemachoice.com/reviews/hccreviews/DVDPlayers/Arcam/ArcamDV88Plu s.php |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1377 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks. It's mostly a video review. All it says that Redbook playback is: Last but definitely not least, it was also pleasing to discover that the promised sound quality improvement in CD mode is no idle boast. The DV88 Plus really does sound even more subtle and refined than its predecessor, with solid punch and bold dynamics when the occasion demands. It is a very obvious step up from the regular DV88, and is lodged well into the territory of the specialist CD player, though not yet quite up to the standards of Arcam's own CD92 or FMJ CD23. I suppose that's encouraging... |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 472 Registered: Apr-04 | Peter, www.audiocentre.com is a store in Ottawa and Montreal that quoted me a price of 600$ for a NAD C542. If you buy from the Ottawa store, you only pay one tax. Maybe this will help. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 871 Registered: Jun-05 | No Peter neither the Nad or the onix are bright,both are pleasantly warm,with the Onix being more a little more lively,and detailed with better top end extension,with a better soundstage and more focused imaging,although soundstage size is close. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1378 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks guys! The Arcam is no longer for sale. The owner decided to keep it but strongly recommends it even for redbook CD. Thanks for the price info Danman! Just knowing that makes I can work my local store down to that price! Thanks for the opinion Tawaun. It's reassuring. Guess I may have to decide between the used Rotel RCD-02, the NAD C542 CD player, or the Cambridge Audio Azur DVD-A player (which Art liked nearly as much as his Nad C542 for redbook CD). |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 890 Registered: Jun-05 | That Yammie is real thin. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1320 Registered: May-05 | Tawaun "The Secrets of Home Theatre and High Fidelity" http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/main.html Also as moderators so it will be in order unlike what you and I and a few others as well, it's got a whole lot more of the same as hear with a difference, there's no one insulting you at every corner, which you have experienced countless times, also the video interviews are very interesting. Ashley |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 894 Registered: Jun-05 | Ill have to check that out Andy. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1380 Registered: Feb-04 | I wrote: Guess I may have to decide between the used Rotel RCD-02, the NAD C542 CD player, or the Cambridge Audio Azur DVD-A player (which Art liked nearly as much as his Nad C542 for redbook CD). The used Rotel is still available, and there's the possibility of a NAD C541i for C$400 too now. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1600 Registered: Feb-05 | Both are very good. Depends on which sound you like. Rotels are more forward and can sound a bit harsh to some folks. I enjoyed my RCD971 a great deal but my wife had to leave the room because the high end bothered her. The NAD is more laid back, very pleasant. The bass is not as in your face with the NAD as it is with Rotel. Rotel's are also a bit more detailed where the NAD sounds more natural. In this price range there are compromises that must be made. It's up to you which you can live with. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1384 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Art. Any great reason to spring the extra bucks for the C542 vs the C541i? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1386 Registered: Feb-04 | Speaking of the Rotel RCD971, there's a used one for C$550. Guess it's a more expensive unit than the RCD-02, but the RCD-02 is still made and the RCD-971 is not. Should I read anything into that? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1603 Registered: Feb-05 | The C542 has a few goodies in it that the C541i does not. I don't remember what they are at the moment but when I bought the C542 I researched it. The goodies = better bass and more refined high end. http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2004/nad_542.shtml I loved my RCD971 and even had it modified by Jim Ott at Northwest Audio Labs (which made a good CD player into a very good one). I would not buy a used RCD971 as their transport has about a 5-7 yrs life at max and is fairly costly to replace. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1387 Registered: Feb-04 | Okay, thanks. The Rotel RCD-02 belongs to a friend of a friend. My friend the intermediary says it has very little usage. He'll act as my ears and will go to his friend's place to hear it versus a regular DVD player, and he'll report back. It's not the same as me listening to it on my gear, but if I hate it I can always sell at little loss. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1401 Registered: Feb-04 | Hi guys... saga continues. A more expensive unit was suggested as a bargain: the C.E.C. CD3300 http://www.cec-web.co.jp/products/player/cd3300_e.html Here's a review light on content: http://www.hometheaterspot.com/html/reviews/techreview.php?rev=31 If I google for "Burr-Brown PCM1738" I also find models such as: shanling SCD-T200C UK Ayre CX-7 CD player ($3000) Esoteric's DV-50 ($5500) Interesting! The CEC 3300 sells for about US$1000 in Europe but about US$550 in the US and C$790 here. I'd be looking at over C$900 after taxes, so it's a little pricy. The dealer can also get new units of the older Arcam CD-72 for C$625 (+ taxes) and has a used Arcam Alpha 7 for C$350. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 504 Registered: Apr-04 | Hard decision eh Peter? There is so much stuff out there it makes your head spin! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1402 Registered: Feb-04 | LOL! That's right! Most of my problem comes from the fact that I've never experienced differences due to a different player. That and the fact that I've already overspent this year. So I'd feel better spending less on the used Rotel, but getting a C$790 unit would be okay on a 24-month payment plan! :-) Unfortunately, that dealer doesn't offer that... That CEC CD3300 might cure upgradis for a few years on the source front! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1616 Registered: Feb-05 | Beware Peter! Who's the reviewer? Do you know and trust his work? I would be wary. Then again I don't like the Shanling or Music Hall players. They sound lifeless and have considerable QC issues. In the budget price range NAD and Rotel have the market cornered. If you want to spend more I'm sure we can make other recommendations. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1403 Registered: Feb-04 | There are very thorough reviews in the French hifi mags so I guess they are more well known in Europe. CEC made their name in hifi turntables and have been making CD players since the early 80's. The CEC CD-3300 is their first 'budget' HiFi CD player. Their popular model is several times the price. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1620 Registered: Feb-05 | Might be worth a try if you can swing it. That is without someone (who will remain nameless) swinging something at you. Personally I would still be wary, then again I don't read french. Also be aware that the French have different tastes in hifi than North Americans do. You know, now that I think about it I really like Triangle speakers and Cairn components. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1404 Registered: Feb-04 | Yeah, I still don't know. I hate this buying in the dark. But I'll tell I much appreciate your time and comments! :-) |
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Edster922-via-peter Unregistered guest | Edster wrote this in https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/160325.html for the CD/DVD player you might want to look into is the Toshiba 3980, BestBuy has it for $60. Here's why: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Cod e=Tosh_3960&Category_Code=MODS I'm thinking of buying one just to hear it myself, BB sells plenty of Bose and can afford to give me a refund. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1407 Registered: Feb-04 | The above is interesting, since I got the same recommendation from someone on the Klipsch forum, ecept that no mods were mentionned. The person said: If you're able to give something unconventional an open-minded try, the Toshiba is a good suggestion. An even cheaper and equally outstanding player is the Toshiba 3960/3980 DVD player. 3980's are currently available at your local big box retailer for $59.00. I have three and am listening to one right now. You have to be pretty secure with yourself to try this- it won't impress your friends. But the sound is unbelievable. I'd love to see some folks squirm after a DBT between this and their favorite high bucks unit. Anyhow, if you don't like it, just pack it back up and return it, nothing lost. If you do try one, be sure to use three isolation blocks under it, and a couple of heavy books atop it for vibration damping. $1.00 skin pumice stones from your nearby QVC or Wal-Mart work well for the isolation blocks. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1835 Registered: Mar-05 | hmm, $1.oo skin pumice stones! I'll have to check that out. I may pass on the Toshiba unless I have a REALLY slow week, since I just played some music on my cheap Panasonic DVD player hooked up to the xr55 on a digital coax and it sounds about the same as the Marantz, since no outboard DACs are involved. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1628 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh Eddie you have slipped down the slope. Keep listening you will here the difference. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1408 Registered: Feb-04 | Hey Art, any comment about the $60 Toshiba? :-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1629 Registered: Feb-05 | I've owned Toshiba DVD players because they have always represented good value. But they aren't even close to good gear in sound quality. They represent good value and that's it. For cd's they are awful. Sony's inexpensive SACD player sounds very good for SACD but awful for cd's. Who knows why manufacturers don't produce inexpensive cd players that sound good. As far as Eddie's statement I don't know what to say. When I first heard digital sound I was struck by how smooth it was but it didn't take long to figure out that it wasn't musical. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1410 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Art, But I think that the rave around certain rare models of cheap DVD players sounding good does not extrapolate to the entire brand. Some in a while, you'll see forums discovering a cheap unit that sounds well above its price for some reason. This seems to be the case for this Toshiba. Doesn't mean any other model they manufacture has the same magic. So no opinion about this specific model? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1630 Registered: Feb-05 | My opinion is about Toshiba Peter. It has been the preferred brand for home installers who's clients insist on budget gear. Trust me there is no magic in that model. I fell sucker to that once with a Sony model (highly regarded by some reputable hifi rags) got it home and guess what..it was same junk as the rest of their budget stuff. Most recently there was a Panasonic that everyone raved about. Same thing it was average fare from them. We all want to believe that there is a free lunch...there ain't. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1880 Registered: Mar-05 | I have to amend my comments on the Panny DVD player somewhat. Today I ABed the $60 Panny against the Marantz cdp both on coax and did find that I preferred the Marantz, then I hooked up the Marantz to the Panny receiver on an analog connection and found that I did prefer that over the digital connection. Source material was a 20 second passage of a Norah Jones song with a vocal cresendo. Not by any huge earthshaking margin mind you, but still a difference nonetheless...well, unless it was my subconscious mind telling me to make up for upsetting Art with all my foaming at the mouth about the Panny receiver on the other thread! (just kidding Art, I know you weren't REALLY upset, LOL.) There was definitely a bigger difference with the Marantz CDP hooked up the NAD vs. the Sony ES cdp hooked up to the NAD, though. When Marc comes over here I'll have him blind test me on the issue of Panny DVD vs. Marantz CDP and digital vs. analog connection though, just out of curiousity. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1637 Registered: Feb-05 | Keep listening Edster it appears that you are beginning to come around. I'm sorry to hear that you are falling for that blind test propaganda. I hope you have been following the Stereophile articles on the subject of late. If you were an experienced listener it would make a difference. Keep listening. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1882 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, the reason blind testing appeals to me is because I know just how powerfully autosuggestion, preconceptions and biases can shape our mental interpretations and sensory perceptions. Those things all work together in one's unconscious and are extremely difficult to go beyond usually. Plus I'm a skeptic by nature, drives the wife crazy. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1411 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Edster, But I'm confused... You preferred the Marantz CD player over the Panny DVD player, using digital connections into a digital amplifier. Which did you prefer over analog connections? That's still on the digital amplifier, right? (Doesn't tell me whether to buy the cheap Toshiba DVD player or not! ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1885 Registered: Mar-05 | haven't tried analog on the Panny dvd yet, thanks for reminding me. Surely there must be a Best Buy in your neck of the woods? They have a very nice return (a.k.a. home audition) policy. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1643 Registered: Feb-05 | Like I said read up on blind testing Eddie. You'd be amazed. It ain't like it seems. I do understand your point but don't forget that music isn't just sound it's all of those things you described. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1434 Registered: Feb-04 | There's a used Sony DVP-NS999ES for C$500. It's a DVD/SACD player. Can it compete ? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1801 Registered: Feb-05 | No. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1804 Registered: Feb-05 | Superb DVD player...pretty good SACD player....average cd player. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1435 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Art. I have yet to audition my neighbour's Rotel, and someone who lives 60 miles away wants to come audition my speakers and he will bring an Arcam CD player along when he does. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2293 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter, look at the new Toshiba thread. Might want to take advantage of Best Buy's return policy and A/B that against any audiophile CDP you decide to get...I'd be curious to hear your findings. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1809 Registered: Feb-05 | Let me know how you like the Arcam Peter. Eddie, I love ya man but not everybody wants to buy and return equipment. It's quite the pain to go and buy and hookup and return and buy and hookup do it over and over again. Some folks like to do their research in advance. It doesn't guarantee satisfaction but it doesn't hurt. Not that your way is wrong or bad it just doesn't work for me and some other folks. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2298 Registered: Mar-05 | No problem Art, different strokes for different folks. I guess the buy-and-return method is the most foolproof way I have found, and the legwork doesn't bother me at least not for tiny lightweight stuff like a disk player. Also Art I confess to being a sucker for the underdog/dark-horse/giant-killer narrative, in no small way due to my relatively limited cashflow available for this evil hobby of ours. : ) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1823 Registered: Feb-05 | Unfortunately I wind up doing the buy and return too often. Not because I want to but because if I ain't satisfied I take the item back. Every now and again I should take something back but I don't and then I regret it, the NAD T763 would be an example. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2304 Registered: Mar-05 | So what will you do with the T763? Is it past the return period? will you Audiogon it? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1826 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it. The retail store owner will be back from her island vacation next week and I will call to see what can be done, perhaps a store credit or something. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1437 Registered: Feb-04 | I borrowed my neighbour's Rotel RCD-990 (MSRP of $1500 in 1997) last night and compared it to my Pioneer DV-333 DVD player ($250 in 2000). First I tried a Holly Cole CD that I happen to have twice. Being a jazz trio, the music isn't too complex that I couldn't really tell the difference switching between the two (both using analog outputs). Then I put on Diana Krall's "Don't know enough about you" from Love Scenes. In the first minute of the track, the piano has soft passages that are much lower in volume than vocals or bass. On the DVD player, the vocals and bass have pinpoint imaging but the piano is a bit fuzzy on the right, and I can't make out all the subtleties and the weight of the piano notes when played softly. This improved a lot with the Rotel. The imaging of the piano was more precise and I could hear some detail and attack of the notes, even when very soft compared to bass and vocals. The Rotel did not sound different in the sound, timbre or imaging of the main instruments and vocals, but pulled out the weaker instruments out of a fog and placed them on the stage. So I might be getting the used RCD-02 after this experience. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2398 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter if you still have the Rotel at home I'd be very curious to hear how it compares to that Toshiba 3980, if you can squeeze in a quick run to a big-box store to pick one up... |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1438 Registered: Feb-04 | Can't Edster. I haven't seen it locally. I live 200 miles away from the nearest large city (which would be Quebec City, not considered large by US standards). |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2410 Registered: Mar-05 | ok, I'll have to be the guinea pig again, sometime. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1909 Registered: Feb-05 | I may have an NAD C542 for sale. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2505 Registered: Mar-05 | heh, Art can you offer a 30 day return period? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1439 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Art, but on the same day you posted that I was driving to Quebec City where I picked up the Rotel RCD-02. Cross-border shipping of used electronics is rarely a good deal anyway! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1933 Registered: Feb-05 | Congrats Peter I know you will enjoy that player. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1441 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Art! :-) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 598 Registered: May-05 | Peter, Thanks for the excellent thread and information from the rest of the guys. I've been following along, skulking in the shadows of course, and reading about your various choices and the ups and downs of the various models. Like you, I finally decided to pull the trigger on a used model and picked up an Arcam Diva CD-92 that I think will work brilliantly with my 2 channel set-up. Enjoy and I hope to do the same when, and if, this system ever gets put together. Thanks, Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2560 Registered: Mar-05 | Dak, AB with the Toshiba, AB with the Toshiba!!! : ) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 599 Registered: May-05 | Ed, I would be happy to AB with the Toshiba if I can find the Toshiba locally. However, the Arcam Diva CD-92 was an $1800 player when new plus it plays HDCDs and I'm not sure we're talking about the same ball park. But for you, I'll try anything, well now we know that isn't true, don't we (think Panny). LOL |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | Dakulis, Peter and Art Congrats all on your new toys. They all sound like excellent bits of kit. Hope you all have hours of fun getting into the music. S'truth, it took a couple of you long enough to choose (you know which two). Like a couple of old woman at the discount bin you were. Phew! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 603 Registered: May-05 | Hey Rantz, welcome back, we missed you. Now, who you calling an old lady? Oh, you meant Art and Peter. LOL |
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Rantz Unregistered guest |  Oh and Dak, I've been around - in one form or another :-) |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1442 Registered: Feb-04 | Hi Rantz! Yeah, I know. Takes me forever sometimes. Then I get it done and it's on to the next thing. I can't believe I got back into audio-video less than two years ago after a long time away. I didn't have a 5.1 receiver back then and bought the h/k avr-325 in february 2004, and moved an extra pair of speakers from the living room to act as surrounds. Then the following august, even though I had promised to wait until Christmas to buy anything else, I bought the Hsu STF-3 sub. A few months later, in November 2004, I found a single used Klipsch Heresy to act as my center speaker to match my Klipsch La Scala mains. I had been using the TV speakers fed from the center pre-out until then. Skip forward to around May 2005, I got a pair of Klipschorns and moved the La Scala's to surround duty. This summer I updated the caps on my Klipschorn crossovers. Now I just bought the Rotel RCD-02 CD player. What's next? Probably all-new design crossovers fo the Klipschorns and I'll swap out their now updated crossovers to the La Scala. Interesting hobby isn't it? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1950 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Rantz. It's good to see you still with us. Your valuable comments are always a welcome read. And let me tell you, it sho 'nuff took dem fellas a long time to choose. But that's alright looks like they made some good choices. Enjoy gentlemen. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2564 Registered: Mar-05 | David, > I would be happy to AB with the Toshiba if I can find the Toshiba locally. What??? There's no Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, Sears, or Walmart in your town? I remember you like to say you live in an audio desert but come ON now, surely you jest! > However, the Arcam Diva CD-92 was an $1800 player when new plus it plays HDCDs and I'm not sure we're talking about the same ball park. heh, well that's just it...what *if* you found the Toshiba to be CLOSE to the same ballpark? I mean, wouldn't that be the damndest thing? On the other hand if the Arcam crushes the Toshiba into fine dust you have my full blessing to roll on the floor and laugh your @ss off at me until Christmas 2015! LOL |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | Guys - it sure is an interesting hobby - or is that obsession? Anyway, it is always gratifying to be pleased with the latest purchase. My next one (audio) will be a long time coming - if the better half has her way. She wants to travel, but I haven't found one tour that has top audio component shops on the agenda :-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1951 Registered: Feb-05 | Eddie there ain't no free lunch...give it up..lol! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 605 Registered: May-05 | Eddie, What's this Best Buy and Circuit City places you keep talking about? LOL Yeah, my kids worked at BB this last summer, I'm just pulling your chain. On this one, I'll actually give it a go for you after I get the system put together, because I don't have to try and get to the back of the dang equipment through the stinkin' entertainment center. So, I'll give ya an A/B and report later. BUT, I'm with Art on this one, I'm thinkin' the Toshiba will be stinkin'. LOL Although I saw on Audiogon where you can buy the Toshiba, spend about $300-$400 on "mods" and it's the best CDP under $4000. Now, I believe those guys, don't you? LOL Rantz, are you going to help us with Eddie here, he's on a Panny/Toshiba mission and he already hooked me up with the Ascends. I think he's trying to push me into a 3rd system, to be named the EDSTERMEISTER. Panny/Toshiba/Ascends for 2 channel, maybe? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1952 Registered: Feb-05 | Scary! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 607 Registered: May-05 | You're telling me. Now, that's a sound that only a mother could love. FrankenMumm Edster, gotta love it. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2572 Registered: Mar-05 | actually David, what you saw on Audiogon is probably the same thing as this: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Cod e=Tosh_3960&Category_Code=MODS&Product_Count=19 See, and here's what they say about it: "Talk about a sleeper! This unit retails for $129, and can be found on-line or at Best Buy for around $69. The unit stock sounds as good as any $300-600 I've heard." OF COURSE if it's posted on the Internet, it HAS to be true...in fact there's a couple of legal statutes governing the strict publishing of only empirically verifiable facts in cyberspace, which I'm sure that you are well aware of! In all seriousness though David, if you could AB the Toshiba against your Arcam, and also against your Denon, I'd just be curious to hear how big the differences are. (Or, LOL, not.) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 611 Registered: May-05 | Ed, I will give it a shot with the Arcam. I'm not certain I want to attack the Denon, which is buried in the HT center but I may be able to do a sorta A/B and run the Ascend fronts off the Arcam and try it that way. No promises on that one, though. I'm still thinkin' the Toshiba is stinkin'. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2579 Registered: Mar-05 | David, hey that's what credit cards and return policies are for! God bless America---you can't do this buy-try-and-return stuff in most places in the world... Anyways, check out this thread, especially the last post by username Dozer who went from a Denon 4806 to an all-digital Rotel 1077: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=591368&page=1&p p=30 (collapse the double "p"---it was censored) On the same thread, there is another Denon 3802 owner who tried out the Panny and preferred it too. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1964 Registered: Feb-05 | Yeah Eddie and that Rotel (power amp only) appears to be a steal at $2500 (rolls his eyes). For that money you can get a 7x200 watt Sherbourn and rock the nation. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2585 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, Heh, I never said the Rotel was a STEAL...that would be the Panny! I just wanted to show that the SQ of digital amps are not by definition inferior to analog, by any stretch of the imagination. David seems to have accepted the steadily eroding conventional wisdom that analog sounds "better" so I thought it would be educational for him to see other owners of high end Denons also going digital, whether it's the Panny or the Rotel. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2590 Registered: Mar-05 | David, btw you might want to specifically read posts #53, 56, and 57 from that link I posted. (Nice thing about avsforum is how they number each post in each thread for easy reference.) http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...t=591368&page=3 |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1970 Registered: Feb-05 | ipod or $5000 high end server, Panny or $2500 Rotel digital amp. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there is a difference. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2591 Registered: Mar-05 | Of course there's a difference, the question = is there a $2250 difference or a $250 difference? It's all subjective of course, and until one's ears get to decide (ideally in a blind AB listen of your own soure material), the rubber has yet to meet the road no matter how much speculation we do. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1974 Registered: Feb-05 | I don't think so. The blind test is a test of a person's ability discern sound not the equipment one is listening to. Have you read the Stereophile issues where they deal with blind testing. Even if you disagree it wouldn't hurt to educate yourself on the subject. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2594 Registered: Mar-05 | Actually I have read that Stereophile review, you and/or Jan have posted it almost as many times as I've posted about the Panny. (just kidding of course, LOL) If I remember correctly, the author states that even though he failed the blind testing, after a few months of listening to unit A that his blind testing indicated sounded just like unit B, he went back to unit B and voila, found some sort of missing "magic" that is simply too profound and mystical to be described in words or measured by any sort of listening tests. More troublesome (at least to me) is the implication that you should just stick to whatever makes you FEEL good rather than what demonstrably IS good...a sort of audio solipsism, which if applied to other arenas would justify an image-based marketing approach (which we already have too much of) instead of a concrete reality/quality-based approach. For instance if using super unleaded gasoline in my Honda Civic makes me "feel" that it transforms the 120hp engine into a Ferrari, when any engineer will tell you that it makes not one iota of difference, I should still p e e away the extra 20 cents a gallon anyways just to indulge my personal delusions. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1976 Registered: Feb-05 | It's not a Stereophile review it is a series of editorials. "More troublesome (at least to me) is the implication that you should just stick to whatever makes you FEEL good rather than what demonstrably IS good" What is demonstrably, and to whom? I can easily tell the difference in cables without knowing to what I'm listening and when they have been changed. I don't know the brand right away but I know that I am hearing something very different. I just demonstrated that the other day at Stereotypes. Yet many, and at least you at one time you stated that that is not possible. I don't have "golden ears" but I do have well trained ears. Reality based testing IMO is for folks who don't have confidence in their listening skills, I don't suffer that. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2599 Registered: Mar-05 | Hmm! Were you TOLD that there was a different cable being used? And what was it different FROM, a cable that was used earlier during your visit, or a cable that you remembered from your previous visit? I would've liked to see that. You know Art if you truly can discern different cables I think there are people or organizations who have offered cash prizes for cable identifying in blind testing. Read that during one of these interminable cable-debate threads. Heck, you could take your winnings and buy even BETTER cables! : ) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1981 Registered: Feb-05 | We were using the cables that I always use at home which were custom made by Jim Ott at NWAL, also Analysis Plus, Tara Labs, and Kimber. Like I said I never knew which brand I was listening to (except Jim's which I listen to all of the time) but I always knew when there was a change and to which piece of gear, even though I could not see which one (or more)she was changing. I was also consistent which ones I liked best with which equipment. As far as the cable debates I don't engage in them except only to say once that I can hear the differences. I could never convince someone who doesn't hear the differences or who is convinced by science that the differences don't exist that they really do, so why bother. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2603 Registered: Mar-05 | Well it is not beyond the realm of possibility that you are an owner a pair of those much fabled "golden ears" whether by genetics or training, Art! : ) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 626 Registered: May-05 | OK Art, Having looked at Analysis-Plus and some of these other cable/speaker wire manufacturers, I'm going to need a 2nd mortgage if I move in that direction. Heck, it's about `1/2 way to a Studio 40, v3. So, do they, IYHO, improve the sound that much? Or, should I stick with off the shelf stuff from Radio Shack, BB, CC or the like? |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | Dak, I know you're asking Art this question, but in my little experience with cables let say that I noticed a small improvement in SQ changing from 12g Monster to the 2nd cheapest Kimber twisted speaker cable. The cable for the LC&R speakers set me back $160 Au and the previous Monster cable had been a gift and was fairly old. Was the benefit worth the money - not really - not for me - for someone with an over-abundance of the green stuff maybe. Interconnects - I had been using our version of your radio shack stuff for my 5.1 connections and changed to a very cheap but reasonable quality brand (all the necessary blab including silver solder etc) and noticed a tiny sq improvement. So I agree with Art that cables & wires can make a difference but paying a fortune for high end cables is subjective with your bank account/sound benefits ratio. Being a lawyer I guess you're loaded so give it a shot - kidding. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 655 Registered: Feb-04 | Dak, See if there is a local audio dealer that will let you borrow some demo cables (or has a generous return policy) and listen for yourself whether there's a difference. I would at least demo expensive cables before laying out the cash. Personally I agree with Rantz. I don't hear a significant difference in sound quality among cables. In fact, I'm not sure the differences I notice aren't attributable to psychological factors. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2013 Registered: Feb-05 | Buy good cables Dave it's worth it. I wouldn't play my gear with Radio Shack interconnects. Remember though that there is very little correlation between how much you spend on cables and how good they are. The $100 Analysis Plus cable was more neutral that my custom cables but they were lifeless and I couldn't use them. It isn't until you get to their $400 cable that it has the life of my $45 custom cables and the neutrality to go with it. It's really a crap shoot. I like Kimber, Analysis Plus (mid range), AudioQuest (mid range) and some others that I can't think of right now. AudioQuest puts a lot of money into advertising so they are a bit spendy but they stand by their product like no one else. I bought their $150 HDMI cable and it failed, they apologized emphatically and sent me their $350 one at no extra cost. BTW it's fantastic. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2638 Registered: Mar-05 | David, ahem, for the cost of upgrading your cables you could easily pay someone to drive you in comfort to that Paradigm shop, carry your Ascend 170s in and out for the AB listening, and drive you back. Then you may well find that the SQ difference between the Studio 20s and the Ascend 170s is too minute to justify forking out big bucks for them, and you can use *that* savings to buy yourself the Panasonic sa-xr55 secretly and enjoy the hell out of it without breathing a word to Art and Jan over here. LOL! |
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Anonymous | Art, or anyone else who cares to answer: I have read the Stereophile papers on ABX testing. I can understand that switching back and forth from component to component for a couple minutes and that being it wouldn't be a particularly good test. However, it would be possible and plausible to set up a different type of test which was more long term and did more effectively duplicate how people actually use their equipment. Beyond the pages of Stereophile, I have also read psychology textbooks which make state double blind testing is the only way to assure that there are no biases which influence one's decision. Given that you are a social worker, with I presume at least some training in psychology, what are your thoughts on these items. Disclaimer: I don't claim that there is or is not a difference among cables, amplifiers, etc. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2016 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm not doing therapy, I'm doing welfare work. In other words my work is not theoretical, it's where the rubber meets the road. I'm not an engineer, I'm an audio enthusiast. I couldn't care less what anyone says about double blind testing or anything else for that matter, I know what I hear and what my preferences are and that is all that matters. No one will be doing my listening for me so it is up to me to decide my beliefs around this hobby and my beliefs are based on experience. Same with my work. I studied theory in several discplines, but in front line social work theory means nothing practice and experience means everything. Have you ever heard me ask for anyone's opinion about audio equipment before buying. There is a reason for that. I would have to know more about the folks here than I do before I would ask opinions. I do ask a couple of my long term audiophile friends here at home their opinions because I have a long established relationship with them and understand their biases. |
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Anonymous | Sigh... Enjoy Art. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2019 Registered: Feb-05 | I hope you enjoy the hobby as much as I do. |
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Java Jive Unregistered guest | To: Rick, Peter, or anyone who now owns a 540D, what does the text in bold mean (below). I don't quite understand it. "The audio processing includes support for DVD-Audio and built-in decoding for Dolby Digital, but not DTS. "DTS signals can still be passed via the digital output for external decoding by a receiver or processor, but the Azur 540D will not provide any signal from its analog outputs from DTS discs..." (Quoted from http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/cambridge_audio_azur_540d.htm) |
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Java Jive Unregistered guest | Addendum: Does that mean that the 540D will not process DTS-encoded DVD's? Therefore, it's your receiver that should do it? Sorry, but I just don't get it. So far, all the reviews I've read on the internet, except HT Sound.com, don't mention anything regarding 540D's native DTS processing. thanks JJ |
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Rantz Unregistered guest | Yes, that is what it means if the above comment is true. It will pass a digital DTS signal to the receiver. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 633 Registered: May-05 | Sorry guys, I was getting ready for depositions and out of town taking them so no time to check in. Rantz, if I was loaded, would I have bought Ascend speakers? (Yeah I might have because they're fantastic at their price point. But, I really, really liked the sound of Art's Studio 60s and I could have gone with a 2.1 channel set-up (yeah no center I'm afraid without spending another $500 or so) and then I'd be waiting to buy Studio 40 rears - maybe. Maybe not.) They sounded great to my ears but I never got the chance to hear them next to the Ascend 170s with and without a sub even though I suspect I'd still like the Studio 60s better. Now, because they're more expensive or because I like the sound better, I'm not quite so willing as Art to discount psychology in buying decisions. New 2006 Miata or Toyota Camry, you can get them for about the same price but an awful lot of factors go into the buying situation, including your stage in life and what other things you need to cover with the available dollars. Always a trade-off. (ART, yeah I know it's not exactly a fair analogy but you get the idea.) Now Art, where do I get your $45 custom cables and why would I need to pay any more if they sound as good as something costing 3 times the amount. (BTW - that's the same price range as Rantz's Monster cables, maybe less. So Art, share already. OR, do I have to travel to the audio Eden of Portland to find these cables? LOL Ed, what makes you think I haven't already bought the Panny, snuck it into my house, listened to it, love it and sold my Denon on eBay. Now, you'll never know, will ya? LOL |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2059 Registered: Feb-05 | My friend Jim Ott who owns Northwest Audio Labs in Corvallis makes custom interconnects. BTW I have Studio 40's and 20's. Couldn't see paying the extra $400 for more cabinet with 60's. Who says I dismiss psychology in buying decisions? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2708 Registered: Mar-05 | > Ed, what makes you think I haven't already bought the Panny, snuck it into my house, listened to it, love it and sold my Denon on eBay. 'Cause if you did, you'd be jumping up and down barking at the moon and uncontrollably gushing at just how unbelievably DIVINE your whole system suddenly sounds with this little $230 marvel...further annoying Art, LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2061 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh no it won't annoy me. I know that the folks who dig the Panny are just looking for a different sound than I am (a bad one...lol). :-) |
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