Worth the extra money?
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Anonymous | my buddy and i have a garage what we use to work on our trucks, and music is a must, we had a off the shelf $100 little two speaker system in there, it was a piece to begin with, and to add insult to injury, we blew the speakers, so we need new ones. We are going to do it right this time with a full 5.1 surround, i get deals on infinity so we are most likely going to use them. To make our situation a little more difficult we dont have alot of room, so the speakers need to be hung on the wall, so we can only use bookshelf speakers. We thought of the Infinity primus bookself series, they come in three different versions, the 140, 150, and 160. The price range is a large margin, so i am wondering if the 140's will be sufficient, or if the 160's are worth the extra $$. |
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Silver Member Username: Virus5877West Lafayette, Indiana USA Post Number: 174 Registered: Apr-05 | the 140's are fine if you plan on using a decent sub, say the ps10 or ps12 from the infinity line. the other nice thing about the 140's is that they are wall-mountable so you won't have to worry about space. ...one other thing: why are you building a 5.1 surround system for music? I would think that a pure music, 2.1 system would not only sound better, but would cost less and take up less space...just a thought |
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New member Username: Speedemon57Post Number: 2 Registered: Aug-05 | the reason we are thinking of a full surround is because the garage is pretty huge, it can accomodate 2-3 trucks quite well. and 2 just wont be enough for the levels we like it at |
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T2T Unregistered guest | Why not look for some used Infinity speakers from eBay? The RS-2 or 2000.2 has a 6.5" woofer and .5" tweeter. These were made a few years back and usually go for less than $50 a pair. I paid $26 + shipping for my 2000.2 speakers a few weeks back. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2006 Registered: Jan-05 | Anders, If you want to 'rock' your garage, you'll be doing yourself a disservice by buying little bookshelf speakers. 5.1 wont help your cause one bit. All you'll end up with are five weak speakers. Two 'rocking' speakers will blow away any 5.1 bookshelf system anyway. What's your budget?? Buy something like this, and you'll be able to play music at ear bleeding levels to your hearts content. http://cgi.ebay.com/CERWIN-VEGA-D-9-15-SPEAKERS-ALL-ORIGINAL_W0QQitemZ5799079542 QQcategoryZ50597QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 33 Registered: Aug-05 | Paul are you aware that there are many bookshelf speakers that exceed THX standards. Finding a bookshelf speaker that can exceed 95-100dB before distortion sets in isn't that hard these days. I hate to have to agree with Paul that the Infinity 140's with a 4" cone that needs to be crossed over to a sub at 100hz and can only handle 100watts isn't going to last long in the OP's situation. Paul is forgetting that he added the .1 of an SVS to fill out his CV's bottom end for his HT. So much for full range speakers blowing away a system with a good sub. But it pains me again to be on Paul's side and question 5.1 like Cyrus did for a music system unless you are listen to multichannel music. I'd put all the money on two speakers and a sub. If all you want to spend is ~$100 the 160s are worth it over the 140s for your use. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1600 Registered: Mar-05 | Anders, what kind of electronics do you have running the speakers? Are you looking for a new receiver/amp as well or just speakers? Also, what kinds of music do you listen to? |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 240 Registered: Mar-04 | yes... if you're only doing music, and want to rock... get a pair of full range speakers instead. minimonitors are great at bang for the buck sound (i love my NHT superzeros) and for imaging, but if you're going to wall mount... there goes your imaging. minimonitors are also known for not being the most DYNAMIC (rocking) speakers available. if you're just doing music and want to rock at party levels... get "party speakers" (full range) and try to properly position them (away from the back wall at LEAST a couple feet) so you get better imaging. some floorstanders with either a pair of 6 1/2" woofers or an 8" woofer would rock alot more than minimonitors which are more for imaging freaks which you would be undoing anyways on bookshelves. a 10" or 12" woofer would give you even more of a gut massage. and wouldn't need to be subbed at all. if you still want to do bookshelfs and a sub for the convenience... get 6 1/2" two ways (NOT rear ported) instead. i agree... two great channels are much better than 4 mediocre ones for music. 4 channel is for VIDEO. if you were going to put a big screen in there... then 4 channels makes sense, for music, 4 channels sucks. it destroys the imaging. that's why many hi-fi fanatics have SEPERATE 2 channel music and video surround systems. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 241 Registered: Mar-04 | besides... concentrating on just 2 mains would give you twice the budget for higher sound quality. (higher priced range infinitys with better drivers and cabinets) |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 246 Registered: Mar-04 | here... check this stereophile review for the infinity primus 360 http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/605infinity/ which gets compared to the smaller units you're considering. the review even mentions the very same dynamics things i brought up. little speakers image... big speakers rock. go to the floorstanding editorial reviews here at ecoustics... and you might find even more infinity models reviewed or second opinions on the 360. on page 1, there's a review for the kappa 600. |
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New member Username: Speedemon57Post Number: 3 Registered: Aug-05 | the reason we were looking into bookshelves is because space is very limited in the garage, so we figured that the bookshelves would be good for the high, as i own a pair of 150's, and the better tower verions, and i think they sound very good, and we were going to pair that with a 12" 500 watt sub to cover the low end we were lacking. The reason i decided the 140s and not the better versions is because i can get 4 primus 140's and a center (unsure of the name, but it has 2 5 1/2 woofers and a tweeter), for $130 through my employee discount, the other option was to but the better ones individually at 50-100 bucks a pop, but that also is better than the 200-300 it typically is |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 892 Registered: May-05 |  Anders Go with the bookshelf models all the way, I would place three-screen matching bookshelf's at the front and three for each side wall and four for the back wall, with EQ for each and every one, and once that's all EQ'ed with the sub bass unit in place this should sound awesome..... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2007 Registered: Jan-05 | Quinn, Do you really believe all the specs put on paper? I suppose you believe everything people tell you too?? Put a pair of tiny halfpints in a room larger than a closet, and they'll struggle to fill the room with sound and a similarly rated 'big' speaker will blow it over every time. That's a fact......I dont care what their 'alleged' SPL rating is for the halfpint. The bottom line is that halfpints dont measure up during practical application. Maybe Jan would like to comment on this because I've done comparisons and teeny speakers can never....ever keep up. Maybe I'll start a new thread for this discussion. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2008 Registered: Jan-05 | the reason we were looking into bookshelves is because space is very limited in the garage ---------------- Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said you were trying to fill a 'large' garage with sound. You'll be fighting a losing battle if you try to accomplish this with small bookshelf speakers. If you want 'big' sound, you wont get it going that route. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 593 Registered: Oct-04 | I agree with Paul, the Cerwin Vegas are perfect in this application and don't require a lot of power to sound their best. Crawling around under cars and hoods fidelity, clarity and detail are terms with no application in this situation, get some hard rocking speakers like those vintage D-9s and you will have plenty of sound off a 2 channel system and you won't need a sub or the extra expense of a subwoofer. Check out this 2 channel receiver that will fit your application perfectly. http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/product_detail.asp?urlMaterialNumber=HK %203380-Z&status= |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1605 Registered: Mar-05 | Anders, All you need is 2 half-decent bookshelves with 8 ohm impedance and above 90 db sensitivity, hooked up to a QUALITY AMP and preferably a QUALITY SUB, with the sub and speakers properly positioned. A 2-3 car garage is not exactly an auditorium, so no need for K-horns or (God help you) Cerwin Vegas. And some crappy $300-400 Sony or Onkyo AVR from Best Buy probably ain't gonna do it very well. With a little smart shopping you can easily accomplish all this with a 2.0 or 2.1 setup for under $1000. With a 2.0 system I'd get something like JBL e90s or Athena AS-F2s which should be $400-500/pair and skip the sub. A 2.1 system would entail maybe $400 for the sub and $150-200 for the bookshelves. Pair either of those with a quality 2-channel amp like a NAD c372 or Marantz PM7200 and you're good to go. |
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New member Username: Speedemon57Post Number: 4 Registered: Aug-05 | we are trying to fill a large garage with sound, but with it being a garage, theres no room for a big set of towers, all the tables and equipment fill the walls, so we have to have something that is able to be hung from the walls, we are getting bookshelves either way, i just want to know if getting more expensive speakers will be worth it if the low tones will just go through a $500 sub anyway? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2010 Registered: Jan-05 | Actually, I agree, and disagree with Kano. I agree that the CVs would be a good application, but disagree with the rest. The CVs need a lot of power and a quality amp to sound good, but not a lot to play really loud. Any cheapo amp will be enough to blast your eardrums, but they need clean power to perform their best. That's where you guys are all way off base. If you ask anybody who has CV experience, they'll tell you the same. So if your 'buddy' in college had a pair, and was driving them with a $2 50watt NAD, that will explain why they sounded terrible. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2011 Registered: Jan-05 | I disagree with Edster..... Little 90spl bookshelf speakers dont measure up to the 'real thing'. If you buy bookshelf speakers, what you'll get is bookshelf sound. Based on your previous statement, bookshelf sound isnt what you're looking for. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1608 Registered: Mar-05 | Anders, combined with a $500 sub and assuming that your receiver (what is it, btw?) has a high pass filter, yeah $150/pair bookshelves would do fine. What's the $500 sub though? If it's a $500 sub from a place like Best Buy or Circuit City you might be very disappointed. I'd look into the $400 SVS PB10 or Hsu STF-2 instead. My pathetic little JBL e150 retails for $400 at Best Buy and either of those would eat it for lunch without breaking a single bead of sweat. |
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kalen Unregistered guest | Paul you need to ask THX labs how those bookshelf speakers are passing their testing to become THX certified. THX certified products have to pass THX labs testing. So, please explain how this is manufacturers inflated numbers. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2017 Registered: Jan-05 | Anyone willing to pay the price gets in the club....... All marketing hype, and nothing more. And I thought you were smarter than that. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2018 Registered: Jan-05 | You didnt answer my question in the other thread. You you really think that a small paperweight with a 95 sensitivity can create as much SPL in a large room compared to an equally 95 rated behemoth?? Notta chance..... |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 910 Registered: May-05 | What's this then Paul's gone Psycho, watch out guys he's going to put us in his club?  "Its only a thread!" |
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Kalen Unregistered guest | "You you really think that a small paperweight with a 95 sensitivity can create as much SPL in a large room compared to an equally 95 rated behemoth??" How you stated the question on the other thread is 95dB on one speaker the same as 95dB on another speaker. To which the answer is yes as a deciBel is a loudness measurement unit. Now over here you asking about sensitivy which is usually expressed as how many dBs does one watt at one meter generate. So, if both speakers generate to same volume per watt you want to know how they sound? |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 916 Registered: May-05 | Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't two loudspeakers with the same sensitivity one rated at 95db with adding on the second one = 98db? And so on.... It's been awhile though, I'm pretty sure of it. Well the cat is out of the bag now, Paul knows this now.... Why don't you buy a SPL db meter please.....  |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 252 Registered: Mar-04 | there's more to sound than just dBs. even if two speakers are rated at the same efficiency at a given frequency... the larger cone will move more air. someone hand paul a prozac huh. there's no need to start attacking people. you'll have a hard time making a point if no one wants to listen to you. if bookshelf speakers are a necessity... then try to get some with larger woofers eg. 6 1/2" to 8". small speakers CAN play loudly, but they can't move enough air to convey WEIGHT. my tiny 4 1/2" ACOUSTIC SUSPENSION (read inefficient) NHT super zeros can play more than loud enough in my approximately 10" X 20" livingroom (not a closet) with just 55wpc. of course they need a sub. they play loud, but they just don't make large instruments seem large. i guess 1 cubic foot at 95dB isn't the same thing as a dozen cubic feet's worth of air being moved at the same volume. even without a subwoofer, 6 1/2" B&W speakers sound larger (more dynamic?) than my zeros WITH a subwoofer. get the biggest bookshelves you can possibly fit in your space for the the most volume, or take a look at epos els-3s ($330 pr.) for sound quality as they beat out similarly priced polks and infinitys for SQ. if you don't mind spending more money on amplification... look into magnepans which are flat and can easily be tucked away and positioned when needed as they're light. they kick much butt in dynamics as they have HUGE diaphragms that move alot of air and do it lightning quick. you could get MMGs for $500 a pair, but you NEED to get an amp that can safely handle 4 ohms like NADs. maggies will play super loud without losing any clarity if you feed them enough juice. if you just marked the floor where they sound best once you get them properly positioned, you could put them back in place with one hand when needed. are you looking for speakers that stay on the walls so you can listen to tunes while you work on cars or are you looking for speakers to listen to when the cars are out of the garage? if it's the former... you could always get the cheap maggies that are designed for wall mounting as surrounds (that don't have tweeter panels though and only go up to 18,000Hz i believe) and bolt them to your cieling totally out of the way. a single pair across the center of the garage would radiate half their sound towards the front and the other half towards the back. they'd DEFINATELY move more air in the midrange than any minimonitor... heck even most full size speakers. note... maggies have low efficiency... but they move alot of air. moving more air makes sounds seem more "solid". heck... if you REALLY wanted to get creative... you could build huge full range speakers into the cieling (if you have exposed beams) DIY style on the cheap.put one close to each corner for added bass re-enforcement, and you won't need a sub or to use bookshelves. you could use as high quality or cheap as you chose drivers. you could even double line your cabinets for even more solid sound than most production units. it's just an idea. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2028 Registered: Jan-05 | It was my mistake starting this topic in the wrong thread. For that, Im sorry... Please take your comments to the correct thread for comment. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2035 Registered: Jan-05 | Kano, In attempt to put this on topic, I thought I would add that the D-9s are 4ohm speakers with a 101db sensitivity. That will probably help explain why they'll easily play loud, but need plenty of juice to make them sound their best and be driven well. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 595 Registered: Oct-04 | When I stated they don't require a lot of power I meant in terms of 500W a side. As you run them hooked up to the Yamaha 2500, the Harman Kardon receiver I suggested would be more than enough at 80W a side since it prob puts out more power than your Yamaha. heh |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2037 Registered: Jan-05 | Since he's talking about 2channel stereo for his garage and you've brought it up. The Yammi was bench tested by audioholics at 135rms in 2 channels and I hardly think a itty bitty 80rms HK could do the same. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1278 Registered: Feb-04 | The Yammi was bench tested by audioholics at 135rms in 2 channels and I hardly think a itty bitty 80rms HK could do the same. My h/k avr-325 is rated at only 65W (0.07% distorsion) per channel in stereo mode. It was tested to output 90.4W at 0.1% distorsion and 107.2W at 1% distorsion into 8 ohms. So a higher model should do more and mine is already only 1 dB from yours. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2040 Registered: Jan-05 | Gaining the extra dB isnt why one buys a better and more powerful amp. As I have already said, a cheap entry level amp will drive the CVs nearly as loud, and that is not the point. The point was that the extra power is needed to drive them well to make them sound their best. C'mon peter, you already knew that!! |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 596 Registered: Oct-04 | And my response was that the Yammi you use to drive your CVs has an equivalent amount of power to a Harman Kardon rated at about half the power. It's not like the CVs need 200 watts or more, your Yamaha is hardly in another class compard to HK, and that 2 channel HK is hardly an entry level amp. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2041 Registered: Jan-05 | A small underpowered 80watt amp couldnt push the 4ohm CVs in 2 channel stereo very well. I've tried it in the past with several receivers 'back in the day'. One of them was even a crappy 45wpc NAD..LOL Yea, a HK like that can make them play loud, but it's not enough receiver to make them perform as they're capable of performing. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 933 Registered: May-05 | Quote Quinn, Do you really believe all the specs put on paper? I suppose you believe everything people tell you too?? Put a pair of tiny halfpints in a room larger than a closet, and they'll struggle to fill the room with sound and a similarly rated 'big' speaker will blow it over every time. That's a fact......I dont care what their 'alleged' SPL rating is for the halfpint. The bottom line is that halfpints dont measure up during practical application. Maybe Jan would like to comment on this because I've done comparisons and teeny speakers can never....ever keep up. Maybe I'll start a new thread for this discussion. _________________________________________________ I've been running what you call half-pints for 16 years now Paul, you really need to try and understand what I can do with mine and what you can do with yours, in time your centre channel might blow, maybe?  What is that, Tsunami snake Tsunami snake WOO! |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 597 Registered: Oct-04 | "Yea, a HK like that can make them play loud, but it's not enough receiver to make them perform as they're capable of performing." Have you even tried an HK with the CVs? While the 3380 at 80W puts out just as much power as your Yamaha the 3480 at 120W x 2 will just blow it to smithereens! http://www.harmankardon.com/product_detail.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=E NG&cat=REC&prod=HK%203480&sType=C Heh |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 598 Registered: Oct-04 | "When two channels are all you need, make it two ultrahigh-bandwidth, high-current channels from the company that invented the stereo receiver." |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 977 Registered: May-05 | The Harman international web site very interesting, there was one HK that I wanted around 16 years ago and that was the AVP1A THX processor, damn was that a nice piece of AV... Oh well, if saw one today going cheaply I'll snap it up...  |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 117 Registered: Apr-05 | The more I read here, the more I find it obvious Paul has never heard any of the very good monitor/bookshelf speakers available. Some of them are VERY good. FRIGHTENINGLY good, in fact. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2296 Registered: Jan-05 | I've auditioned plenty of speakers, some of which were $8,000 per pair. I agree that some bookshelf speakers can sound nice, so long that you dont mind small sound. Ya know, great for background jazz music, cheese & wine music, but not for HT. |
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