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Bronze Member Username: UrlacherPost Number: 66 Registered: Apr-04 | Hey I have a high current Onkyo receiver and it runs very very hot. You could fry an egg on it. Is this normal? I have plenty of clearance for it and it still runs hot. |
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Silver Member Username: TwebbzAnn Arbor, Michigan USA Post Number: 227 Registered: Apr-04 | What speakers are you running? How many Ohms are they. Is this a new receiver? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5073 Registered: May-04 | Check the display unit at the shop where you purchased this receiver. Find out if it runs hot also. This could be the way the amplifier was designed. If it is, that usually doesn't bode well for longevity. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 174 Registered: Apr-04 | Where do you keep you receiver? If you have it in a small entertainment stand, it will run hot! |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 175 Registered: Apr-04 | Where do you store your receiver? If you have it in a small entertainment stand or rack, it may run hot. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 298 Registered: Feb-05 | David: It should not run that hot. That kind of heat is rarely seen on all but the most powerful solid state and tube amps. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1942 Registered: Jan-05 | If you have plenty of ventilation, and it's still running 'very' hot, maybe the cooling fan inside isnt working. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5105 Registered: May-04 | Receivers have cooling fans? What on earth is the reason for that? And, if anyone answers crappy design, I'll know you're just joking. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 299 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes Jan many receivers on the market have cooling fans my own lowly HK AVR335 included. Large high current transistors get quite warm,although not as hot as tubes. Most of the time, particulary with the HK designs the fan does not run only coming on during very high volume listening levels for long periods,several hours or more. Most receivers especiallly lower and mid level models should never run very hot to the touch with adequate ventilation,meaning if you place your hand upon the cabinent for a few seconds and it is painfully hot then you should consult a repair shop. A receiver that runs this hot without going into protection will not last long. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 300 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes Jan that is correct. Many receivers on the market today have cooling fans, my lowly HK AVR335 included. Most of the time particularly with the HK designs the fan does not run, coming on only during high volume listening levels for extended periods. Large scale high current transistors get pretty warm, although not near as hot as tubes. It is thermostat controlled by a microprocessor. In a low to mid fi receiver with reasonable speaker loading,and adequate ventilation, it should never be painfully hot to the touch, if so consult a repair shop. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 301 Registered: Feb-05 | Ooops!, sorry for the nearly identical double post. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5121 Registered: May-04 | Maybe I shouldn't even mention to my high current HK Citation 12 power amplifier and my HK 730 reciever that the new guys got fans installed. After more than thirty years of service, they might feel jealous. Fans; huh? How about that? And they come on during the music? Hmmmmph? What d'ya' know? That can't be good when there's a quiet passage in the music. I think that's why my amplifiers don't have any fans. I think they thought more about the music when I bought my stuff. Thanks though for not just saying they use the fans to cover their butts for a crappy design. |
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Bronze Member Username: AlphabetCape TownSouth Africa Post Number: 36 Registered: Feb-05 | I have come across a number of receivers that have fans built in and yes Jan they do come on during music sometimes, but unless you have your ear very close to the unit, you cannot hear it. So often you see a post about a unit running hot, but I think Eric has hit the nail on the head by describing what should be considered "unhealthy" for any unit. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5127 Registered: May-04 | My point exactly! It is unhealthy for the amplifier to run an output stage so hot that it requires a fan for cooling. Heat and tubes are one thing, there is no heat sink on a tube. However, the inability, or lack of desire or downright cheapness, to design a solid state amplifier - and a receiver no less - that needs a fan for cooling is absurd! This seems to me an issue of running the outputs without enough heat sink capacity to adequately do the job. If the outputs were running in class A operation that would be one thing. But, they are not and I'm willing to bet the amplifier doesn't sound like a class A design. Yes, a fan will cool the unit; but why not design the piece of equipment correctly in the first place. This would appear to be a matter of cutting corners to achieve higher wattage numbers on paper against a lower cost. I have respect for HK and use the older amplifiers on a daily basis. I have a 10 year old HK AV receiver that I use as the main amplifier in my HT system; but it has no fans. From the time my AVR 80II was designed to provide 85 watts x 5 (tests at 122 watts x 5 and can output into a two Ohm load) to the time the system outgrew the number of inputs and had to be supplimented by a NAD T752 as the Dolby Digital inputs/processor, fans became the vogue. The NAD receiver is rated at, I believe, 120 watts per channel x 5 and it has a fan! The HK - rated at 85 watts - is a third larger than the NAD, about ten pounds heavier and does not require a fan to run only slightly warm to the touch. Hifi just keeps getting more cheaply designed and built and people just keep buying what they are fed. That's the problem. Not the fan itself. I agree with the idea there is something wrong with the intial poster's receiver. I would suggest one of two things. 1) If the unit is still in warranty, demand the amplifier be repaired to run at a safe operating temperature. If that is not possible, insist on an exchange for a properly designed unit. 2) If the unit is out of warranty, toss it through the front window of the shop where it was purchased and go buy something at a reputable dealer that is designed and built to operate properly. Eat you losses now. This amplifier isn't long for this Earth anyway. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1954 Registered: Jan-05 | Im surprised "Mr. Know-it-all" is completely in the dark on this subject. I think mine has a fan, but I've never ever heard it. Hmmmm......so if I've never heard it, does that mean I dont have one?? If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody...err, nevermind. C'mon Jan quit bragging. Not everyone is fortunate enough to still own and use 30 year old HiFi components like yourself. Hopefully,at least you've taken it upon yourself to replace your TV since then. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5132 Registered: May-04 | TV? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5133 Registered: May-04 | Yes, Paul, "Mr. Know it all" (I assume you are referring to me) knows about fans. I shall remove my tongue from the side of my cheek now. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5134 Registered: May-04 | If sarcasm is employed and no one gets the point ... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1956 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, From what I see, there is more fan usage in high end receivers/amps than you see in entry level receivers. Im not so sure about your.........."They're just compensating for a cheap design" theory. Personally, I think you've completely flipped your lid. I've been lucky and never had overheating problems with receivers. Surprisingly, my HDtuner is the warmest component in my rack. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1957 Registered: Jan-05 | I'll go out on a limb here, but I'll bet many of the High-end Yammis, Denons(z9,5803), sunfires and many other receivers/amps much further up the foodchain than my meager $1,000 receiver employ the use of fans. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5139 Registered: May-04 | And that means what, Paul? Higher cost does not necessarily imply higher quality. Most of the lower priced/lower powered HT receivers aren't in need of the same amount of heatsinking as a "high-end" HT receiver. The low end stuff will normally utilize output IC's which carry very little current and mininmal voltage compared to a pair (PNP/NPN) of output transistors. And certainly less than the multiples of transistor pairs required to get a 125 watt x 5 (or more) receiver. Without the current or voltage swinging through them, IC's do not have the same need for heat disipation and will still feel "less hot" than a discrete output stage receiver trying to score points for 5 more watts per channel than the competitor. That is, if the discrete output receiver is designed to run hotter and hotter until it finally requires a fan to try cooling the whole thing down. BTW, what is a "High-end" receiver any way? That would appear to be an oxymoron. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1966 Registered: Jan-05 | You're right...... An ancient 10watt hunk of tubes would be probably a lot better quality anyway. Now if only I could find an old TV filled with tubes I'd be set. Sorry, but most of that inferior crap has gone the way of the dinosaur for a reason. I guess I cant blame the old timers for not wanting to get rid of their old stuff though, and upgrading. |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 277 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, I'd probably consider B&K and Lexicon to be manufacturers of high-end receivers. Paul, I don't think you are qualified to judge what is inferior. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 125 Registered: Dec-04 | Please forgive me for being a bit thick, but isn't a receiver an amp with a tuner in it? Start the name calling at will. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1258 Registered: Feb-04 | A receiver is a tuner, pre-amp and amp combo. An HT receiver adds mulchannel to the mix (5.1, 6.1 or 7.1). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5151 Registered: May-04 | Paul, I can see your reading material goes no further than Big Box monthly and CV Fanatic. I can tell you there are no ads for single ended triode amplifiers running in the home theater magazines. Pick up a magazine where they talk about audio equipment and you will see tubes have hardly gone out of fashion. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5152 Registered: May-04 | Ben - I haven't heard the Lexicon in over a decade. Back then they didn't make a receiver. The last time I heard a BK receiver I wasn't too impressed and I was a huge fan of their early products. I heard it at Tweeters though; so who knows what it might really sound like. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1969 Registered: Jan-05 | Yea, I agree that there are a few 'tubie' cults that are still out there, but that doesnt change the fact that it's dinosaur technology discarded by all but the 'cult' few who continue to hang onto nostalgia. Heck, if the Star Trek(Trekkies)can hold onto the past this long, I dont see why the Tubies cant either. You do realize that the Tube phenomenon is nothing more than a small HiFi cult group hanging onto the past, dont you?? Im not saying anything is wrong with that because everybody has their own way of entertaining themselves and having fun. For one music fan, that might mean collecting 8-track tapes, and for another, it may mean collecting Tube amps or old reel-to-reel tape recorders. |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 279 Registered: Dec-03 | http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/lexicon-rv-8-receiver-8-2005-part-1.h tml |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1972 Registered: Jan-05 | Ben, Thanks for the link. That looks like a really awesome receiver. The biggest sin would be owning one of those incredible receivers, and then connecting 7 tiny polkRT25s for HT purposes while claiming to be an audiophile in the same breath. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 431 Registered: May-05 | Jan - A good design shouldn't need a fan? Are McIntosh ams of poor design? A couple of them (I don't know about current ones though) used them. One that sticks out is the MC 2300. I guess that was a Busch League low end amp. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5159 Registered: May-04 | Paul - You do know "audiophiles" are a small cult segment of the market don't you? And "videophiles" are an even smaller cult. And people who prefer Cerwin Vegas over any other speaker are ... well, let's just say, there aren't very many people that prefer Cerwin Vegas to anything. You seem to be having some trouble with the terms though. It is unlikely anyone would buy a $7,000 receiver to pair it with $250 speakers, I agree. But, it is likely that an "audiophile" might not give a flip about video and home theater. Equally, someone interested only in explosions and train wrecks wouldn't have any association with people who are interested in music and then call themself a videophile. At this point, Paul, I'm not certain whether I should recommend you drink some more KoolAid or go get some coffee to wake up. SP - It's been a long time since I have seen a MC2300, so I can't recall whether it had a fan or not. Whether it did or not, keep in mind it was a 125 lb. amplifier rated at 300 watts per channel that put out, as an average, close to 400 watts per channel in to 8 Ohms and I don't remember what into 4 Ohms. It was also intended for rack mount purposes. There was no McIntosh cabinet for the 2300. In a rack application, I can't imagine anyone not putting a fan on a 300 watt amplifier. If you were to stack 55 of them in a rack, as the Grateful Dead did on tour, you would most definitely want a fan or two in the stack somewhere. The rack mounted 2300 at 125 lbs is not a valid comparison to a twenty pound ht receiver with five channels running at 125 watts each. Not to me, at least. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1975 Registered: Jan-05 | Stu, They had fans too?? Wow.....Those Macintosh receivers must have been poorly designed!! hahahah You can bet somebody will soon make an excuse. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1976 Registered: Jan-05 | woops, I spoke too soon.... As Jan said, the Mac2300 doesnt count. I suppose neigher does Lexicon either.........or the..etc, etc, etc..... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1977 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, Your 'cult' response doesnt change the fact that Tubes have gone the way of the dinasaur for a reason much like 8-track tapes, reel-to-reels in the home, and many other things including B&W television. The 'typical' person does watch way too much television in the evenings, and I agree that my watching movies instead does make me a bit of a movie cult person. However, a lot of that has to do with capability because if others had a system as capable as mine....they'd probably watch more movies too. For example, I was never the movie buff that I am now before I had my current HT. Watching movies on a tiny TV with a weak sound system would completely ruin movies.....IMO. Heck, if that were the case, I'd probably watch more Seinfeld reruns too. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 302 Registered: Feb-05 | Guys, having a fan in a receiver is not because of a poor design. You have to consider that the average receiver contains a power supply,pre-amp,amplifier sections,processor circuitry for surround sound,and a tuner all in one box. With all this crammed into one box compromises are inevitable,and thus a fan is oft employed to compensate for a reduced sized heatsink. In a stand alone amplifier there is no need for a preamp or tuner or surround processing circuitry so a much larger heatsink can be employed and cooling is more efficient. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5164 Registered: May-04 | ER - If a "reduced size heatsink" and "poor design" are not synonymous, I don't know what would be. If you design an amplifer with X amount of heatsink priorities, then it should be the responsiblity of a good designer to provide that amount, or more, of heatsink area. Paul - Your continued feeble attempts to paint everything outside of your mediocre tv "system's" priorities as out of the mainstream are reaching levels that are only going to embarrass you still further should you continue this charade of superiority. A simple Google search would have shown anyone not the least bit interested in quality audio the McIntosh MC2300 is a stand alone power amplifier and it is not a receiver. I understand someone totally and vastly unfamiliar with the concepts of high end audio would not realize there are companies which make more than receivers and that a separate power amplifier is quite distinct in its design and purpose from a box crammed full of cheap IC's and purchased on a clearance sale. I also understand anyone who considers Best Buy to be a high end audio salon probably thinks McIntosh makes computers. But, Paul, really, this is getting to be ridiculously painful to watch. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1981 Registered: Jan-05 | You're still missing the point. 1.many receivers utilize a cooling fan(even moreso with the higher quality models). 2.Tubes are nothing more than an obsolete technology from a primative foregone era. BTW, Im not quite sure why you keep mentioning BB because my receiver did not come from there nor do they carry models in that class. You might want to remove your 'tube-tinted' glasses because you're obviously having trouble keeping up with the conversation. Im not sure how anyone with a tube powered mini-bookshelf system can be the authority on quality sound. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5169 Registered: May-04 | "Im not sure how anyone with a tube powered mini-bookshelf system can be the authority on quality sound." Your powers of categorization are as faulty as your understanding of audio. Do we need to continue this back and forth? Do you feel you must have the last word? |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 280 Registered: Dec-03 | I believe the RCA's on the back of most people's A/V receivers are a technology that's been around as long as tubes. Using Paul logic would equate to any component that has RCA jacks as being obsolete and inferior. Tubes vs. S/S vs. Digital is all about preference. There are no facts as to which sounds better. It's all on one's ears. The choice of a fan is like the choice of the amplification used...all up to the designer. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 434 Registered: May-05 | Jan - I agree there is no comparison between the Mac I mentioned and an AVR. I also agree with you regarding why fans were probably used in that design. Heat sinks on an amp of that size and power would have been very impractical. In some AVR's fans are probably more practical due to size. If some of these AVR's had proper heatsinks instead of fans, it would probably double the overall size of them. A lot of people won't buy (or their wives won't let them buy - that's for you Paul) an AVR that doesn't fit into a specific rack. In every design there are compromises. Sometimes it's more practical to use heat sinks, and sometimes it isn't. Just because a component uses a fan instead of a heatsink doen't mean it's junk. I was just trying to point out that their's an exception to every rule. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 303 Registered: Feb-05 | Exactly Stu, like I said there are much compromises that are made when designing an av receiver. My HK AVR does in fact employ a rather large heatsink taking up about 25% of the area inside the receiver. The fan will only run at very high volumes for extended periods. In 4 months of service I haven't seen it kick on yet, and believe me I have cranked it many times for hours at a time, not ear bleeding volume but very loud indeed. Four 8200uF caps do give off a decent amount of heat. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5185 Registered: May-04 | Gentlemen, I've stated my feelings concerning fans and heatsinks. I seriously doubt those attitudes will change. If a fan is used as a way to supplement a good design, I'm all for it. Heat is the number one enemy of electronics. But, fans have become the ubiquitous fashion to deal with cheap product design in all too many cases, in my opinion. That trend is not going to change. I shall just continue to hope my decades old equipment, running without the aid of built in fans, soldier on for a few more decades. I prefer to decide when a fan comes on and off. |
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New member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 7 Registered: Aug-05 | Wekkm as a general rule, receivers run much hotter than integrated amplifiers! Also, you wanna feel a hot receiver? Just feel my Kenwood KR-6600 after about 30 minutes of use! This thing puts out enough heat to lower the gas bill in the dead of winter. Ya know what though? It's never blown since I've had it, and I run it pretty rough. So I don't think longentivity is going to play a role, if that's a good receiver, made before the 90's lol. If it's vintage it should run like a champ for years to come with little problems other than maybe some sputtering, minute static, and maybe a little "pop" hear and there, forcing a capacitor or something small on the inside of the unit to be fixed. If it's today's push button/digital display crap, well, nothing can help you now! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5190 Registered: May-04 | Exhibit "A". |
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New member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 9 Registered: Aug-05 | WTH is a Wekkm? I think I meant WELL lol. What's Exhibit "A". |
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New member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 10 Registered: Aug-05 | "CV Fanatic" Hold on there mister, I've liked your arguments and all, but if CV stands for Cerwin Vega, don't cross that line, they make a heck of a product that pours out SQ/Power/Long Lives. Also, anything with push buttons and a digital display is pure evil...If Jan wants to own a McIntosh 240 Tube Amplifier, so be it, it's better than the receivers of today that for the most part can't handle anything below 8 ohms! My Kenwood allows current flow down to 3.2 OHMS! In today's world, other than with power amps, and car gear, that's unheard of. There's no versatility with today's crap. You plug in 5-7 speakers, place them generously around the room, and tuck the subwoofer under the coffee table, end of story. Imaging is done for you, the receiver can't play a full wattage per channel on EVERY channel without melting down, because of today's cheap parts. I don't care if you spenc $1000 on a receiver, it's just not thee same. If I go buy a Kenwood KR-9600, a 160WPC receiver from back in the day as you people seem to be calling it, I'm getting my 160WPC. And trust me, an honest 160WPC, is beastly. My 60WPC KR-6600, is beastly, it'll easily blow out any of today's name brand speakers with max power ratings of 150-200W! Know why? It's a quality piece of work. I don't know much about tubes, but I know most audio gear from tubes to the receivers that followed them from the 70's-80's was quality gear, with honest output, and high SQ. Lemme put it this way, I don't have A/C at my house, it's 95 degrees here in WV with humidity included, I've been playing my Kenwood ALL DAY, at fairly high levels, you wanna know the only thing that has happened that disappoints? A small bit of static in the left channel, because I have to have it looked at more in depth so that something that is probably very minute, is slightly loose is causing that problem, but it's hot as all get out, and it's never shut down! So I agree that fans are most likely ways to cover up poor design. The only types of audio output devices I can see having fans are power amps to be honest, because a well made power amp can put out dymanic power of 1600W+, therefore, to cool something that powerful down, yes, a fan would be necessary, but for a surround receiver that puts out supposed 1000W MAX, I don't think so! |
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Bronze Member Username: UrlacherPost Number: 67 Registered: Apr-04 | it is in a small stand but there is plenty of ventilation. |
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Bronze Member Username: UrlacherPost Number: 68 Registered: Apr-04 | this is a brand new receiver and I am running 8ohm speakers and its a 8 ohm receiver. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5196 Registered: May-04 | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:15 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check the display unit at the shop where you purchased this receiver. Find out if it runs hot also. This could be the way the amplifier was designed. If it is, that usually doesn't bode well for longevity. |
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Bronze Member Username: UrlacherPost Number: 70 Registered: Apr-04 | ok I exchanged the receiver for another one and this one runs hot also. Guess this is a common thing. Guess its just the way the model is. |
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Bronze Member Username: AlphabetCape TownSouth Africa Post Number: 37 Registered: Feb-05 | David, as Eric mentioned, there would be reason for concern if the unit becomes so hot that it is painful to touch. Some units do run warmer than others, but once again that is relative. What is hot to one person maybe considered as warm by another. |