What's the best Auditioning Methodology?
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1512 Registered: Mar-05 | Well, just spent almost two hours this afternoon listening to 4 different CDPs at a local audio shop...see my report in the CD Players section entitled "Edster's under-$500 CDP Shootout." Something that came up which I keep thinking about...the shop guy recommended a different technique on auditioning than mine, which I tried for about 10 minutes before going back to mine. My technique: isolate and analyze. I choose particular passages of individual songs (usually 10-20 seconds) and play them over and over again on the different CDPs in quick succession at fairly high volumes (80db or so) and listen closely...often these are passages with sudden reversals, crescendos, etc. His technique: globally listen. He recommended listening to several songs on one CDP to sort of "get the feel" fo it and arrive at whatever emotional state the musical presentation brings out, then listen to those songs again on a different CDP, again going with your gut reaction to the music. Supposedly your unconscious mind knows the difference, and you just have to give it a chance to do its work by stepping away from too much conscious analysis, kind of like how sometimes you go to bed thinking about some problem and when you wake up in the morning you have a Eureka moment as the answer pops up out of nowhere. Very Zen-like, really, which I should like since I have been doing Zen meditation for the last couple of years---but to me it allows in far too many variables and also my knowledge that humans have an aural memory of about 3 seconds doesn't inspire much confidence in this technique. Also ironic, because in my own personal life and philsophical orientation, I have very much of a mystical perspective but with audio I tend to lean the other direction. Anyways, I'd be curious to see HOW you guys audition audio gear especially when trying to choose between different makes/models of the same component type. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 640 Registered: Jun-05 | 1st of all with all your own music and that you are the most familiar with.2nd try and listen by yourself because some salesman like to talk or change to the next track,or even worse change speakers and Amps,but manly so you can get in your zone.3rd try different brand of amps and speakers once you feel you have gotten the sonic signiture in your head.4th dont be biased you are not married to any of the equipment or taking it home from the bar,only when you have complete synergy do you get those kind of thoughts in your head.5th dont listen for loud passages as closely as low passages {microdynamics}Fowardness of the player can be covered up on first listens of loud passages because you are not familiar with the players Characteristics.Remember soft passages are like your best friends it takes years to find out all your dislikes about them.{although not a good thing for friends but it is with audio find out what it doesent do great later and focus on what it does good right now,because lets face if we are not facing thousands there are deffinetly compramises,completely the opposite of what you want out of your friends} |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1515 Registered: Mar-05 | thanks Tawaun those are very interesting tips...I never would've thought to pay close attention to soft passages! On the other hand I was often listening to the first minute of each song because they only had a universal remote for the Marantz available on the floor, which didn't have a skip-within-song function, so I think I probably took in quite a few soft opening passages. Yeah that Norah Jones CD is one I know very well, I drove my wife nuts playing it 10 times a day for the first 2 weeks after I bought it, lol. The amp and speakers were chosen to as closely match my home setup as possible. I actually quite enjoyed the MAs, they were very dyanmic, both punchy and detailed though just a tad sharp sometimes, sharper than I'm used to from my Ascends. I was too lazy to bring in my 340s today, my bad. Aaron was actually very easy to be with, just as he was when I came in to ABX the Onkyo 601 against his Marantz 5400 almost a year ago (ended up buying the Marantz a week later). He gave me lots of space, popping in and out of the listening room about every fifteen minutes or so to see if I had any questions, not pushy or manipulative at all. Really a great salesperson. He had to leave about 15 minutes before they closed in order to pick up his car from the service shop but arranged for me to stay almost 30 minutes after closing time. Man, how time flies when auditioning gear! I couldn't believe it was over so fast, I could've sat there for another couple of hours easily. Can you go into more detail about "sonic signature?" I think I kinda know what you mean, but am curious to hear more about this concept. About how long would you estimate it takes for most people to arrive at this "sonic signature" when listening to each CDP? 15 minutes? 30 minutes? An hour? More? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 410 Registered: May-05 | Ed - I think everyone has different ways that work for them. Everyone more or less hears the same way and same things, but they mentally process it differently, which is why different people hear different charecteristics. Find a way that works best for you. Once my bank account recovers from the last few months - vacation, new bed, wife's birthday, graduations, etc - I'm looking for a new CD player. Here's what I was planning on doing - Burn two identicle cd's of my favorite (and best sound quality) songs. About 15-17 songs. Listen to one cd player for about 15-20 minutes, then another for the same length of time. After this, put one cd in each player, hit play at the same time (assuming they have very similar load and start times), and switch back and forth between them as needed. The place I was looking to go has the same equipment I own now, so there are very few variables that aren't accounted for. I figure with both going at the same time (only one being heard), and the volume setting constant on the amp, I can eliminate the 'aurial memory' 3 or 4 second window. This way, I don't have to spend time ejecting a cd, re-starting it in another one, and try to cue as closely as possible to where I left off. As long as it's timed right, there should be no realistic delay between one and another. Now that I'm thinking about it, I could start one about 5 sec after the other to get an instant replay effect. Just my thoughts. I figured I'd share that one and see what others had to say about it. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 178 Registered: Mar-04 | definately, as mentioned, don't let some pushy salesperson tell you what you should be hearing. whenever i audition, i bring 4-5 discs with me. WHATEVER you listen to should be music that you know inside and out. then, you'll more easily hear differences. i bring discs with demo tracks for: imaging... the tide is high by blondie is a really good track for imaging, but any well recorded acoustical music with alot of performers should be good. i especially like rykodisc samplers as their variety covers alot of demo disc basics vocals... well recorded vocals are a must. even better, a demo track of male and another of female vocals. if any equipment sounds like crap with vocals, it'll never sound good bass... good clear bass is something worthy of testing. something acoustic like the many "kodo drumming" discs would be good for dynamics while something electronic, reggae or hip hop etc. would be good for testing the ultimate bass extension. don't just use bass tones though. acoustic bass sounds will much better inform you about speed and distortion. treble... while it's a heavily electronic disc, i ALWAYS bring solex vs. the hitmeister when auditioning as it has tracks that cover virtually every base (imaging, vocals, bass and treble) it has super deep bass, nice female vocals, and one track that has so much treble extension, that i've only ever heard the metallic percussion clearly on b&w speakers. when you listen to equipment, use material that you're familiar with. use YOUR ears. some salesmen will try to lead you astray, but at reputable shops... they'll stay out of your hair unless you have a question. really, before you look for equipment, train your ears to find what YOUR priorities are in music. you'll find that there are MANY rabid camps in audio as everyone has their own preferences. maybe your priorities are weight and dynamics... that usually means big speakers and/or horn speakers. if you're an imaging freak... you'll probably prefer small speakers and subwoofers. if you like gut massages... you'll prefer ported woofers if you prefer fast punchy bass... you'll like sealed woofers better. if you want total midrange clarity, speed and seamless vocals, you might be a magnepan freak and not know it yet. before you go looking at equipment, train your ears to find exactly what YOU like. if your tastes are the total opposite of a particular reviewer, then their recommendations are meaningless. once you train your ears, you can zoom in on the sound you're after. for a long time, i was a diehard acoustic suspension (sealed) minimonitor freak as i liked the freedom from distortion, imaging, and speed, but after hearing how well magnepans are able to play music (especially vocals) without ANY typical speaker box resonances, i've quit being an imaging freak and am now a tone freak. electrostats and planars aren't known for deep bass, but what they do put out is totally distortion free and lightning fast. train your ears first... THEN shop around as an informed consumer. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 411 Registered: May-05 | Great post budgetminded. I was thinking the same thing about the music selections - not the same exact songs, but different tracks that have these qualities. I didn't want my post to be too long. What I really liked is what you said about what speakers to look for for different qualities. I thought that way, but haven't seen it put into those words before. Thanks!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4999 Registered: May-04 | I would warn against any rapid changes in equipment. The old saw about switch boxes disguising differences in equipment can be taken to be true in certain instances. Some more so than others. However, the real problem in switching back and forth quickly is the manner in which this must be done. Particularly with components other than speakers, it is difficult to set the equipment up so that levels are absolutely guaranteed to be exactly even. The problem is made more difficult by the very thing you often are looking for, the dynamics of the music. It was long ago established that when comparing two music signals side by side with rapid switching, any change in level will cause the louder level to be chosen as superior whether it would be in long term listening or not. This has been established to 0.05dB with constant signal. Playing music makes this level change even more dicey. You will pick the louder signal as better and when the next switch brings a louder level from the other player, ... you will be screwed. If your aural memory is only a few seconds, which is pretty much true, I would agree with the method your salesperson suggested. You can't remember long enough to make valid comparisons anyway. Go for the overall emotion and impact of the music you hear. If you are picking based on rapid switching, you are simply comparing the two players abilities at that instant and not the music they reproduce. As the author of "Do you listen" I am opposed to comparing two pieces of equipment to one another. Your comparison should be to the live event. Listening to a piece of music for the qualities it shares with performance is more valuable than listening for which player has the better "imaging", "focus" or "warmth". Of course, never compare more than two pieces of equipment at one time. "A" against "B" and make your decision. Take that winner and compare to "C" and so on. Any other method is sure to get you confused about what you've just heard from "A", "B" or "C". Sonic signature? I would suggest you first have an idea of what is important to you in reproducing the live event in your home. I can only suggest this is developed by hearing the live event first. I was always amazed at the number of clients who never listened to live music. Once you have a "file folder" of categories that you feel make music come alive in your room, take some examples of music that displays those qualities well. I tend to ignore bass extension and bass quantity along with the same on the treble end. I listen for various things with one or two recordings being specifically chosen for this or that. In some cases I can make my decision about the desireability of a component in about 20 seconds to a minute. If a component can't do this or that as well as the next product, I have no interest in proceeding to find what else it can do. This is establishing a hierarchy of what qualities do I desire in the music I hear in my home. Over years of selling I have established what I prefer and what I am willing to throw away to get there. The bottom line for me is if you are comparing against real music, you can walk into a shop without music or equipment you know and make valuable judgements regarding what does what. Assuming of course the salesperson asks what sort of music you listen to. One of the most infuriating experiences for me is to walk into a shop to audition and the salesperson uses music they like to hear. I don't listen to metal and I cannot judge from the sound it produces. Other than that, if you are comparing to the qualities you hear in live music, you will be fine. I would refer you to "Do you listen" but with over 700 posts the points to be made have come few and far between. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1215 Registered: Feb-04 | t was long ago established that when comparing two music signals side by side with rapid switching, any change in level will cause the louder level to be chosen as superior whether it would be in long term listening or not. I agree with that! This has been established to 0.05dB You mean it has to be the same within 0.05 dB? I'll disagree with that! I was under the impression that 1 dB was about the minimum detectable change. Do you recall a reference for the 0.05 dB citation? I would think that level-matching this closely is nearly impossible to accomplish... |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 412 Registered: May-05 | Jan - This may be a stupid question, maybe not. When I was referring to the instant A/B'ing, I was referring to CD players only. I should have stated that, but it slipped my mind. Different speakers have different effeciencies, volume postion on knobs on amps mean very little next to each other. My question is will there be an audible spl difference between cdp's of revatively equal quality? If they are running through the same amp without changing the volume, would their be a difference, and if so what would cause that? Would it be output impedence or voltage? For example - NAD C320BEE integrated amp, volume at 9:00; NAD C542 cdp; NAD C521BEE cpd; store selector switch. If the same music were playing through the two cdp's at as close to the same time as possible, would one be louder than the other? I'm not asking you about those specific models, but generally speaking. If which ever spec was the same, they they should be as close as possible to each other right? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 413 Registered: May-05 | Sorry - I forgot to mention that I was aware that the louder one almost always gets chosen. That was why I said on the same amp at the same volume level. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 169 Registered: Jul-05 | Peter: Check the audio critic, top 10 audio lies under the ABX testing section. Although they state 0.1dB matching, its close enough. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 408 Registered: May-05 | Great thread guys. T-Man, the second part of your post may be the most inspirational, most poetic, quite simply and beautifully stated technique I've read for awhile. I almost want to take that equipment home and sleep with it, although my wife would surely object. OUTSTANDING Budget (I was going to call you "BM" but somehow that simply didn't play right here), excellent observations, great insights, especially on importance of knowing your music and selecting music that brings out different qualities. Well said. Jan, as always, great knowledge BUT you've got no time for this today, the answer to the question, "Do you listen?" today, is "yes" as often as I can to the Lings and all comers, then I report brilliantly (OK, we'd even settle for "well" about all that I heard and observed in the comparisons. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1216 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks DA! It doesn't really say that anything was established, just that this defines ABX testing. Guess I'd have to look up ABX to find out if that threshold was ever established. Well, you can't level-match that well with a Radio Shack SPL meter! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5001 Registered: May-04 | Sorry, I was caught in a Jethro moment of double naughts. I meant to post 0.5dB. All those nothings begin to look alike after a certain amount of medication. The numbers will vary depending on the surce you use. I think for the most part you have you ignore some of the strict numbers since the variance at different frequencies is not addressed in these hard and fast guidelines. We are more sensitive to changes in small areas around the midrange than at the frequency extremes. There is also some compelling evidence to indicate the "Q" of the signal affects the amount of change we can perceive. This becomes an issue of blind ABX testing that cannot be fully resolved between the competing camps. On the side of the "audiophile", the idea that accurate levels cannot be assessed with a fluctuating signal such as music is relevant. The ABX test becomes a matter of testing the listener and not the equipment. http://www.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/technology/whitepapers/inf-rooms_2.pdf# search='floyd%20toole%20loudspeakers%20and%20rooms' |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1217 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Jan. I can buy 0.5 dB as a rough guide. :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5002 Registered: May-04 | Stu - Remember the number you see on the specification sheet is a target that has allowances for average manufacture built in. If you take two similar units and put them on a test bench, you might find enough variation from unit to unit to make a direct comparison invalid when we are discussing 0.5dB, or less, tolerances. The likelyhood two disimilar units will display exactly the same amount of output voltage and impedance would increase the problems of accurate level matching. Is this a cause for concern? I can't tell you that. I think, if you are doing rapid switching, yes. The variances between inpu tand output impedances can obviously affect the perceived resolution of detail, frequency response, dynamics and so on. If what you are after is a technical measurement of these issues, then rapid switching can confirm dissimilarities but cannot confirm the cause of these variations without further examination. If what you are seeking is the essence of the music, you can make decisions as long as the unit under scrutiny is the only variable. Do not add another cable or equipment change to the mix. Again, compare "A" to the reference of live music and then "A"'s version of music to "B"'s rendition of the same music only; then move on. Adding a cable change after you've made a decision on "A" could have affected the decision. You'll have plenty of opportunity to tweak the final pick after you get it home. If you are buying from a reputable dealer, you will almost always have the opportunity to make exchanges if you find the top pick doesn't suit your system at home. This is just hifi. Don't make it a big deal. Everything constitues some compromise. Take it home and, somewhat like Tawaun's example, make it like your neighbor. You will get used to its little idiosyncracies or else you will move on (or wait for them to die) if they prove totally intolerable. Regarding the "sonic signature"; since I would prefer each component to be as close to nuetral as possible, I would suggest the signature be yours and not the equipment's. Make your heirarchy and establish what you desire. Then find the unit that deviates from nuetral in the direction you wish. As I briefly discussed in "Do you listen", putting together a "warm" CD player with a "bright" amplifier will usually result in poor sound overall. Placing a BandAid on a situation is unlikely to be the best long term solution. Find that target you define as "music" and get all components within the closest range to that bullseye target as your budget will allow. Build on the strengths of the system and do not patch the weaknesses. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 415 Registered: May-05 | Thanks Jan. I wasn't thinking about tolerance and how much identicle models can fluctuate within a given tolerance. Put that way, it seems resonable that two identicle cdp's (2 NAD 542's for example) can probably sound different using my method posted above due to spl level inconsistancies. This will make my decision so much easier when it comes time to buy!!! Just kidding. But don't worry, I won't drive everyone crazy like Timothy did (and is due for again). It's all about having fun and not taking this stuff too seriously... |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 185 Registered: Mar-04 | yes... people will tend to prefer what ever sounds louder regardless of quality. that's probably why virtually NO-ONE makes acoustic suspension speakers anymore even though they have speed and clarity that ported speakers can't match. a GREAT recommendation that i read somewhere is before you even listen to a speaker, knock on it's cabinet to see how well it's damped. the best speakers will *click* while the worse ones will sound like the boxes they are. that's surely one of the resons that my tiny super zeros are less fatiguing than my missions which have cheap 1/2" MDF cabinets that echo like crazy when rapped. ANOTHER great test of any equipment is the OPPOSITE of how loud it plays... turn the volume down as low as possible to see how well the equiments resolves low level details. inferior equipment will be hard to hear at low volumes. if you were really serious about AB comparisons of speakers, you should bring a $40 radio shack VU meter along with you and a test tone track and level match the volume between 2 speakers using 2 amps that sound as much alike as possible or at least set the volume of the second speaker to match the first BEFORE you play music on it which makes direct A/B comparisons tougher. the best deal is to find a shop that lets you "try before you buy". NOTHING beats an in home demo as your room surely isn't the same size or shape as the shop where you audition. that's one of the other reasons i like sub/sat systems. having a seperate subwoofer lets you more precisely tune your bass to your room and avoid the booming you get from full range speakers too large for your room. music should be fun, but when you plunk down $$$ on equipment that sounds like crap to your ears in your home... it is serious. my $250 mission m71s make decent PC speakers though. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 104 Registered: Apr-05 | Budget Minded..you said "a GREAT recommendation that i read somewhere is before you even listen to a speaker, knock on it's cabinet to see how well it's damped. the best speakers will *click* while the worse ones will sound like the boxes they are. that's surely one of the resons that my tiny super zeros are less fatiguing than my missions which have cheap 1/2" MDF cabinets that echo like crazy when rapped" While thats true, the only SURE way to hear what the cabinet is adding to the sound is with a stethescope. Try it sometime. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5143 Registered: May-04 | I'd like to see the salesperson's expression when you ask to listen to some speakers with a stethoscope hanging around your neck. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5144 Registered: May-04 | Ya'know, guys, it is the music we're supposed to to be trying to get to. Rapping on cabinets till your knuckles are bruised and holding a stethoscope to the binding post cups is a bit too much. Why not just put on some music and listen to that instead. That's how you're going to listen at home. That's what speakers are for. If you can't hear it from across the room, it doesn't really matter if one cabinet goes "tick" and the other goes "tock"! Listen to the music!!! Are you going to be knocking on your speakers each time you want to listen to some tunes? What exactly does it mean if you do hear something through the stethoscope? Until you're paying Wilson Watt prices, I would think most speakers would show something wrong under those conditions. The question is not what do you hear under circumstances unlike how you use the equipment. The idea is to get a speaker you can enjoy from across the room. Just play some music and pay attention to how you respond to the performance. If there's something wrong with the speaker, you'll know it. If you buy the speakers and then find out they go "tock", you should have listened to some more music. Before you went shopping for speakers, you should have listened to some more music. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 105 Registered: Apr-05 | "What exactly does it mean if you do hear something through the stethoscope?" Jan, it's kinda like a grading tool for speaker design engineer's. If they did their jobs properly, you should hear very little thru the stethoscope. Always good to see who did and who didn't do their job right, no? |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 221 Registered: Mar-04 | well... if you wanted to REALLY technical with that whole stethescope thing... make sure that you also bring a VU meter to make sure that you're listening to cabinet resonances at the same volume levels. the knocking on the cabinet thing isn't about winding up and kung fu punching speakers! LOL you can pretty well tell when a speaker is inert or when it has a huge resonance with an unscientific gentle knock. if a light rap induces a wooden sound... then you know. i could POUND on my zeros and they'd still make less noise thann my missions with just tapping. they're THAT boxy. why would a manufacturer make a resonant cabinet? because it's CHEAPER and cabinets are the most expensive part of nearly every speaker... except maybe plastic shelf system speakers. resonances aren't something that you can hear clearly when music is playing, but they affect alot of things including imaging. it's possible that someone might find some resonance induced euphonics that they actually LIKE. otherwise... why would anyone listen to hideous sounding sluggish resonant 15" ported speakers? why? why? why? LOL i just like the rapping trick because it's so easy to do and so revealing. it IMMEDIATELY eliminates inferior cabinets before you have to isolate that trait through listening. i'm POSITIVE that's why i can't seriously listen to those cereal box missions for any length of time without becoming fatigued. point number two... NEVER TAKE ANY REVIEW AS GOSPEL!!!! LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5162 Registered: May-04 | This seems to be another one of those discussions headed for forum hell. If you want to find out what the cabinet and the drivers are doing in unison, which is what you want to know, bring in testing equipment to do a waterfall plot of the entire equation!!! You are not redesigning the speakers, you are choosing which ones to listen through. So what if the cabinet has a signature? If the resonance is high Q and quickly damped, that's no big deal and is to be expected to some extent in all speakers irregardless of the price. Where that signature falls in the frequency range is far more important than whether a signature exists. Honestly, if you can't decide a speaker is poorly made by looking at it, then maybe you do need some outside assistance. I see no further point in this discussion. If someone wants to carry in any sort of testing equipment they want, that's their choice. If you want to rap on cabinets or take the blood pressure of a speaker, that's your business. To me it seems the equivalent of slamming the doors on a car lot to find which car you want to buy. Decide by using the product the way you will actually use it; not by devising some scheme to show up defects which may or may not influence your decision while actually using the product. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 236 Registered: Mar-04 | j vigne... i'd expect someone as knowledgable as you to come up with a better analogy than the car door. if you said "rev the engine" i'd accept the analogy more as the motor affects performance... the car door doesn't. speaker cabinets DO contribute to sound. knocking on a cabinet isoltates that one aspect of performance. yes... SOME people might prefer a cabinet with a resonant signature the same way they do the resonant signature of ported speakers *vomit* or the tone control effect of tube amplification. personally i despise colorations to the point where i prefer a dry/clinical sound. cabinet resonances (or port resonances) are totally unacceptable to me. that's probably why i've become a born again box free magnepan fan. DEATH TO RESONANCES! LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5188 Registered: May-04 | The tube remark was low! I prefer not to sink to that level, sir. It is not a matter of "preferring" a boxed speaker with a cabinet resonance any more than it is a matter of preferring a planar speaker with panel resonances. That both exist, and exist in even the most costly products, is a fact of life in audio. If you set something in motion, it will resonate. To my knowledge, no one has found a way around that bit of physics. You should realize that what I am stating is that different sorts of (the inevitable) cabinet resonances are less intrusive than a cabinet that rings like a cathedral bell. I'm not sure at this point whether you are being intentionally dull; or if you have just taken offense that I disagreed with you and are now willing to state the most ludicrous examples to bolster your less than well thought out remarks. Personally, I despise dry and clinical. And, I can't imagine anyone referring to a Magnepan product as such. None the less, I would rather have "musical" in my listening room. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1540 Registered: Feb-05 | Box free or nay Magnepan could hardly be described as dry or clinical. And speaking of colorations I hardly know of a speaker that sounds less like the real thing. They put music into the listening room in a way that allows most Maggie lovers to forgive their tonal inaccuracies. I used to own Maggies (last year in fact) and enjoy them very much but I would not own them again unless I could afford at least the 3.6's. The true ribbon gives back what the QR takes away. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 970 Registered: Mar-05 | ROCK! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2003 Registered: Jan-05 | I see that joe figured out how to do a new trick!! hahah |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5193 Registered: May-04 | I see you, Paul, are relying on the same tired old tricks. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 109 Registered: Apr-05 | "If you set something in motion, it will resonate. To my knowledge, no one has found a way around that bit of physics" Ummmmmmm.......no..........BUT.......what you CAN do is shift those resonances out of the audable bandwith. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/starsound/caravelle.html |
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New member Username: SnarlOntario Canada Post Number: 2 Registered: Jun-05 | Rule #1) Never Audition Speakers when your hammered  |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 238 Registered: Mar-04 | i wasn't saying maggies are dry or clinical. to my ears they are exceedingly uncolored. if they have panel resonances... i sure didn't hear them. as light as maggies are... i could believe that they do have them, but my experience was that they were the first "unboxlike" sounding speakers i've heard. i found planar sound to be the most realistic i've ever heard. to me they sounded very flat with the exception of a slightly polite (but effortless) treble and rolled off (but lightning fast) in the bass region. i actually like bass rolloff. i'd love to have just a single maggy as my sub instead of my 12". i no longer worship acoustic suspension minimonitors needless to say. to me, planars are another step higher in the freedom from resonances. i'll STILL always despise ported speakers though. LOL planars sound so coherent and flat (except in bass and treble extension) i was wowed. i'm not trolling j. vigne. i just vigorously disagree with your dismissal of box resonances. if B&W did acoustic suspension... i might like them better for their matrix bracing, and bet i'd like arials with their 1 1/2" thick cabinets. boy, am i so much more happy with my DIY sub's sound quality now that i've lined the interior with 3/4" MDF because the original 1/2" MDF (MCM claimed 3/4", but that's only front and back) sounded hideous. bye-bye boombox bass. now if i could only get an 8" driver to speed things up a little. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5199 Registered: May-04 | Your post and that of Paul B. just indicate the tradeoffs that are going to be made out of necessity to; 1) the laws of physics, and 2) the budget that is alloted to each product. I didn't come here to bash or praise any products. I got here from a simple question regarding how to audition hifi equipment. We all pick different gear because we all have different ears and most of us even have a brain. (No inference is being made to anyone in the present company. There are, however, some who post on this forum who seem to have left their mental powers elsewhere.) As the linked review indicates, we can do many things with resonance to mitigate its effects on the sound. But we cannot not have resonance if we set something in motion. How any one of us deals with resonances when choosing their system is a personal matter. We have at least one person on this forum that apparently thinks letting the cabinet resonate as loudly as possible with exceptional sustain is a wonderful thing. His position is any speaker that tries to eliminate or dampen that resonance is nonmusical. He is entitled to his opinion. (Thankfully I will never have to listen to his system.) I really don't think this needs to turn into a discussion of the benefits and disadvantages of various speaker designs. Each represents a different set of tradeoffs. If what you prefer works for you for five to ten years, I think that's great. If you chase down resonance this year and then flat frequency response six months later and then go after soundstaging ... Then I feel you should rethink your priorities. The point of having a music system in your home is to bring music into your home. That has been my only significant point in this discussion. It is not about comparing one speaker (or DVD, amplifier, etc.) to another on an instantaneous switch or listening for things that have little to do with the music. Listen to the music and let it have its effect on you. Then compare that to another piece of equipment under the same circumstances. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 111 Registered: Apr-05 | Budgetminded, you said "planars sound so coherent and flat (except in bass and treble extension) i was wowed" What your hearing there has less to do with resonances and more to do with the lack of induced phase shift. Is it possible to get a dynamic driver system to have that planer or stat like sound? Absolutely. BUT.....again....it's a coherancy thing. Only a first order crossover will get you there. Why? because 1st order is the only crossover that sums to a piece of wire in vector space. 2nd order unit's have to have at least one driver wired out of phase, thus creating 180 degree's of phase shift. 4th order units are better in that they don't have drivers out of phase but they have 360 degree's of phase shift, or a full cycle looking at it on a scope. The drivers all start at the same time but stop one full cycle apart. If you want the coherant sound of a planer/stat type speaker with better bass and treble, look into 1st order. Having said that, not all 1st order designs are equal. You want to find one that uses minimal crossover parts as every component in the signal path alters the signal to a degree. This means the speaker will need to use the very best drivers, perfectly linear and with little crossover compensation required. Obviously these type speakers are very hard to come by, but believe me, they are out there. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5275 Registered: May-04 | P.B. - Please read this: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/reviews/156699.html The speaker uses a 1st order network, but in a very unique design. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 261 Registered: Mar-04 | well i listened to $20,000 time aligned B&W speakers that still sounded like speakers. they had great treble extension, excellent imaging and deep bass, but they jusy didn't have the "get out my way" speed that much cheaper planars did. of course... i'm TOTALLY espousing a bias. i'll be the first to admit it. boomy resonant ported speakers were the first thing in audio i learned to despise and tiny (back when they still did acoustic suspension) infinity 2 ways were THE speakers that turned me on to hi-fi despite having heard decent full range demos before. to MY EARS nothing beats speed and freedom from resonance (but imaging is very nice) i'm STRUGGLING with a boombox that i just bought that has a disgusting sympathetic vibration resonance that only occurs with a couple of specific bass notes that is driving me nuts. i ONLY want to hear the sound of drivers... never any resonances. i'm sure that my tastes are deeply rooted in my utter contempt for ported speakers and their resonance distortions. "dry" sound might not be exciting... but it is accurate. let NOTHING come between the sound and my ears! LOL i'd love to make ported speakers illegal. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5284 Registered: May-04 | "i ONLY want to hear the sound of drivers... never any resonances." I hate to keep pointing out you are hearing resonances. You are just hearing resonances you've never heard before. And, if I may be so bold, when you get to the point of just wanting to hear the music, you will have made another leap up the audio plateau. It's tough being an audio mountain goat. |
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