Denon DVD-1920 universal player for US$350 MSRP?
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1196 Registered: Feb-04 | Hey guys, Still wondering if I'll get into SACD/DVD-A or perhaps buy a standalone CD player (NAD bee). Does the SACD medium and format outclass even a good redbook (but affordable) CD player? Or does the SACD player still need to be very good? Specifically, Would the cheap Pioneer DV-578A playing SACDs beat the NAD playing redbook? Or does one need to step up to the new Denon DVD-1920 universal player for US$350 MSRP? It has Burr-Brown 24-bit, 192-kHz Audio DACs - PCM-1756. I don't want to overspend on the video part of a universal player since I have a non-HD 52" RPTV anyway (non progressive). |
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Anonymous | I still use a standalone Marantz player for my CD's hooked up with rca analog cables, I did not like the sound with the digital coax or optical hook up. I like music in 2 channel stereo with a sub for fill in. I have a Pioneer DV-588a for HT and am very happy with the unit for SACD/DVD-A use. However the DV-588a is hooked up with an optical cable to the receiver, and I don't like how it sounds. But the 6 rca cables out for SACD/DVD-A use, I do like even in 2 channel. The one problem is bass management, my Marantz receiver allows me to boost the 7.1 imput for bass so I don't loose out. But it may sound a little thin on your unit if you dont have this feature. You may have to boost the output for bass. Sometimes this can make it sound bloated. Other reports I have read said Pioneer is using the Burr Brown DAC's. These seem to be prefered by many. I dont think the Denon will offer a significantly better sound unless it has better bass management. Have you had a chance to listen to SACD/DVD-A? I find the format clean with an open high end, but some of the mix in surround can be a little off sounding. Enough of my rambling! I like my DV-588A, it was a little over a $100 and I dont think a Denon 1920 will sound much better (I think it has same DAC's). And yes I'm a standalone CD player kind of guy. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1202 Registered: Feb-04 | Wow, a useful from from anonymous! ;-) Thanks! I wonder about Pioneer using the Burr Brown DACs. You'd think they'd say so on their web page. The DV-588 and DV-578 look to have very similar features and have the same MSRP. I wonder what's up with that? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2190 Registered: Aug-04 | Peter, The bigger the power supply, better components and dac's go a long way to better performance for the hi-res formats imho and I'm sure you'll agree. I have a Denon DVD-2900 hooked to a Marantz SR-7300 with B&W 602 S3's, LCR and Richter sub. DVD-A's and SACD's sound truly wonderful playing well engineered/mixed recordings. CD playback is no slouch either. I recently purchased (because of sale price) a back-up machine - a Pioneer 676-A and while the hi-res playback is okay, it does not perform nearly as well as the Denon. Also I doubt very much whether the Pioneer has Burr Brown (Texas Instruments) DAC's. If you are going to take the hi-res plunge I recommend you spend as much as possible with the Denon DVD-2910 being the starting point considering sound quality. In the past year I have purchased about 90 hi-res titles and 2 redbook cd's. I cannot recommend the hi-res formats enough providing the equipment lets the quality shine through. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1206 Registered: Feb-04 | The Denon DVD-2910 goes for US$500 on ebay. Ouch! What are the main sonic differences when using hi-res formats between the Denon 2910 and the Pioneer 676-A ? Does the Pioneer, playing hi-res, outperform a standalone CD player or the Denon DVD-2900 playing redbook CDs? Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2191 Registered: Aug-04 | A good quality stand alone CD player will, in most cases, be better than the 2900 though I believe the 3910 (and Marantz DV-9500) has high-end cd player quality performance. Art Kyle states his NAD (540?) beats the 2910 on CD performance. The Pioneer is not all that bad with redbook cd and the Denon beats it hands down - so does my Marantz CC-4300 (which is about on par with the Denon). As far as comparing the cheap Pioneer to Denon 2900, the differences begin with the bass management of the 2900 and lack thereof with the Pioneer. Sonics - the Denon is more open with a fuller/richer sound and better defined imaging across the channels. But to be fair, I have only listened to a couple of tracks of the Gaucho SACD on the Pioneer, so my comparison can only be taken with that in mind. We now use the Pioneer for DVD movies to save wearing out the Denon (we do listen to a lot of music)- though I think it could be driven hard for years! I guess it really comes down to how much you like the hi-res recordings and what the sound has to offer. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1209 Registered: Feb-04 | I guess it really comes down to how much you like the hi-res recordings and what the sound has to offer. The thing is that I know that yet. :-( I'd need a friend with gear I could borrow, but have none with such gear. I've only ever heard DSOTM in 5.1 SACD on a cheap Pioneer. It sounded incredible... |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2192 Registered: Aug-04 | "I've only ever heard DSOTM in 5.1 SACD on a cheap Pioneer. It sounded incredible..." And there's so much more that sounds even better. Truly! Suggestion - get the cheaper Pioneer or Denon. If you become a hi-res fan then upgrade later. Acousticsounds.com is a good source for recordings. BTW - the new DualDisc format is not great with either the Denon or the Pioneer - the "CD" side won't play, the hi-res DVD-A (if included) works fine on both. Good Luck. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1474 Registered: Feb-05 | Peter you beat to starting this thread. I heard this player at Bradford's the other day. That is for the 20 minutes they had one in the store before it sold. They can't keep it in stock. Both the 1920 and the 2910 are selling like crazy down here. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1475 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh and sorry I did not answer your question probably because I think you know how I feel. My Denon DVD2910 does everything well and some things very well. My NAD C542 out performs it handily for redbook cd's so I advocate having a dedicated CD player unless you can afford one of the very fine universals. Ayre and Linn make great universals that have exceptional redbook cd performance, but they cost thousands of dollares. So I say get a DVD1920 and a dedicated CD player. Don't shoot me Peter, that's just my 2 cents.:-) |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1210 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks guys! :-) |
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New member Username: CjtalbotPost Number: 2 Registered: Oct-04 | I'm running the Pioneer 588 into my Marantz 8500 and although it sounds fantastic for the cost, I'm looking at picking up a slightly used Denon 2900 to help bring up the SACD and DVD-A quality. I also have an Outlaw ICBM in between the player and the Marantz, and that helps a ton with bass managment (obviously..) but it still doesn't sounds as well as it could I think. Back about 3 weeks ago I had the opportunity to use a Marantz 6500 Universal Player for a few days and it blew the pants off of the Pioneer in terms of acoustic quality on SACD and DVD-A... Video quality is a push for both units...but I'm only a normal old TV kind of guy...no HD for me yet. If it was me (and my plan actuall is to..) I'd pick up a used 2900 on agon for like $450 or whatever. |
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Anonymous | Hey it's me again, "Anonymous". I have just been too lazy to sign up! I have seen many others who post "Anonymous" give this site a bad rep but I'm not one of those! If you are still checking out a Denon 1920, the web site shows it having a different Burr-brown DAC than the 1910 (possible change for better?) I wanted to mention I also breifly had a Marantz DV6400 before my Pioneer 588 and yes it too was better sounding than the Pioneer! But I went with the 588 for video (no layer change) Marantz uses Crystal DAC's instead of Burr-brown. I'm waiting for the new Marantz DV6600 to come out to replace the Pioneer. But at a little over $100 the Pioneer really does a decent job. I do agree that bass management with the high rez format needs help, maybe I should get one of the ICBM's. Your interest in the 1920, as your primary unit for CD's is it budget or space? I think you would do better with the dedicated NAD CD player and the Denon 1920 for high rez only. I've got to sign up and stop this "Anonymous" thing! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1499 Registered: Feb-05 | I have both the Marantz DV6400 and the Denon DVD2910, no comparison the Denon beats the Marantz in every way. |
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New member Username: IpsofactoNew Delhi, Delhi India Post Number: 7 Registered: Jan-05 | I have basic question. I am buying a Marantz DV6500. Now most of the SACD disks available in the US -at least in the classical music area - are presently releases from from Mercury and RCA Living Stereo days and are 2-layered (CD compatible) and recorded originally in 2-and 3-channel(Mercury) formats. Is it posible for me to connect the stereo analog RCA outputs of the Marantz to my McIntosh pre-amp (pure amplifier) with SACD mode selected - OR - do I have to go through my Onkyo AV receiver's decoding circuitry and set up for 2-channel stereo sound? I am primarily interested in 2-channel SACD. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzAustralia Post Number: 2197 Registered: Aug-04 | Yes to your first question. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1522 Registered: Feb-05 | I had my SACD player hooked directly to my pre amp for 2 channel for quite awhile and actually prefer it. I will be switching it back ASAP. SACD was originally a 2 channel format. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzAustralia Post Number: 2198 Registered: Aug-04 | To each their own, Art! Actually, after hearing good surround hi-rez, the two channel versions just don't quite do it for me. And recorded music was originally in mono.  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1524 Registered: Feb-05 | "SACD was originally a 2 channel format." "And recorded music was originally in mono." I'm sure the second statement has something to do with the first, I'm just not sure what. I'm sure the difference in our experience is equipment related. My 2 channel system is better than my multichannel system. Also most of the SACD's that I have are RCA "Living Stereo" or Mercury "Living Presence" discs which are 2 or 3 channel anyway. It has in my opinion been successfully argued that even though more than 2 tracks were often recorded for those discs the original intent was that they be 2 channel. Lastly it is a real pain to go through all you have to with my system to listen to multichannel SACD. Which includes going into the Denon menu and turning off the HDMI feature. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1239 Registered: Feb-04 | So if an inexpensive DAC can't produce better analog audio from 24bits/192kHz than a more expensive DAC can from a much more difficult 16bits/44.1 kHz, what is it going to take to get good cheap digital sound? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1526 Registered: Feb-05 | Cheap is relative. I think that we already have it. If your asking when will a DVD player be able to compete with a CD player for redbook playback, it will be when manufacturers use seperate lasers in the same player in something other than the most expensive players. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1241 Registered: Feb-04 | Hmmm. What is the difference between the lasers, and which is the CD one optimal for CDs? And why don't CD players read SACDs? ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1527 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry I'm not more social this evening but I have quite the headache. sid40_gci514667%2C00.html,http://searchmobilecomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinitio n/0,,sid40_gci514667,00.html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1528 Registered: Feb-05 | Apparently that link doesn't work even though I just pulled it directly from the site. Oh well. sid40_gci514667%2C00.html,http://searchmobilecomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinitio n/0,,sid40_gci514667,00.html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1529 Registered: Feb-05 | Ain't gonna happen tonight. Just google "cd dvd definition" and pull up the link that says "fast guide to cd/dvd at whatis.com. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1242 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks... The larger number of data pits on a DVD is accomplished by shortening the wavelength of the laser used to create the pits. The wavelength was reduced from 780nm (nanometers), infrared light, for the CD, to 635nm to 650nm, red light, for the DVD. Unless I missed it, I fail to see why the better resolution DVD laser is not as good as a CD laser for CDs. Is it not reading off the bits correctly? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1530 Registered: Feb-05 | Look at the difference between the lasers used to read the data. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1244 Registered: Feb-04 | Art, I'm not trying to be confrontational here... Really. The DVD laser has smaller wavelength to resolve the higher density used on DVDs. It can resolve CD pits because they are bigger. It is reading off the same bits, so why would a CD laser sound any different than a DVD laser if the same bitstream of coming from them? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1535 Registered: Feb-05 | Why should one audio cable sound different than another. Because they are different. It's that simple. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1266 Registered: Feb-04 | Art, Have I walked into bad territory here? Audio cables might sound different (I've never been demonstrated this) but they carry an analog signal. This is different. The task is reading off bits from a CD. If the same bits are read, I don't see how it makes a difference. On your side of the argument, I found this on the web: From the Manufacturer: The Pioneer DV-343 DVD player includes a twin-wave laser pickup equipped with a 650-nanometer laser diode for playing DVDs and 780-nanometer diode for playing CDs, Video-CDs, CD-Rs, and CD-RWs. The player automatically detects which type of disc is loaded and activates the appropriate diode to provide the optimal laser wavelength for playback. This design provides the best possible performance, regardless of format. My lowly DV-333 also has this twin laser. So maybe I shouldn't shop for a standalone CD player because I already have one! LOL! I could see how the tracking logic and control would be different for both CDs and DVDs, and how it simply might be easier (cheaper) for a manufacturer to use a CD laser to read CDs instead of figuring different control using the DVD laser (which is more precise). But if one suceeds in reading off the CD bits using a DVD laser, then the bits are there and are the same. IMHO. It's hard to convince a scientist that something magical is occurring. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1538 Registered: Feb-05 | Remember Peter I don't do the tech thing I don't feel that I have to because my ears tell me all that I need to know about audio. When I need technical info I go to my friends Jim and Steve at Northwest Audio Labs and they fill me in. What makes it great is that they don't always agree but they are always informative. I don't remember word for word for the purposes of regurgitation what they have told me, but I do know that they both have confirmed on numerous occasions what my ears tell me. DVD and universal players don't do redbook as well the other formats. Why, has something to do with the lasers. "My lowly DV-333 also has this twin laser. So maybe I shouldn't shop for a standalone CD player because I already have one! LOL!" Regardless of the part, not all parts are created equal. Whether it be lasers, transports or whatever. "It's hard to convince a scientist that something magical is occurring" As Jim always says "my most difficult customers are the OSU scientists and HP engineers because they don't trust their ears." |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1270 Registered: Feb-04 | It's not that I don't trust my ears, I've never heard the demo. When I got my receiver last year, I tried comparing the analog output of my DVD player (on CDs) to the digital connection to my h/k receiver, figuring that the h/k had better DACs. I never could tell a difference and neither could an audio enthousiast friend of mine. But I don't know whether a separate CD player would make a difference or not. |
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Silver Member Username: Arnold_layneMadridSpain Post Number: 420 Registered: Jun-04 | According to my experience cables does a difference, but only for hi-rez audio. (Please let me know if you need hints on how to get hold of material for this.) Handling digital signals is a little bit more complicated than it seems. One key issue is to avoid jitter, i.e. variations in bitstream speed. As far as I know, the old Pioneer DV-563/565 had both a good disc drive mechanism and an efficient buffer, and thus a fairly low jitter level. But I'm afraid I do not know if this prevailed in the replacement models 575/578 and the new 585. Yes, Pioneer usually employs BB in their low-end multiformat players. But Burr-Brown DACs is a broad product line, there are many different chips. Some handles both DSD and PCM, but not all. TI website provides detailed and interesting product info, but unfortunately not on discontinued stuff. Cheers AL |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1539 Registered: Feb-05 | "Regardless of the part, not all parts are created equal. Whether it be lasers, transports or whatever." "It's hard to convince a scientist that something magical is occurring" Scientist or not I'm sure you would agree that although a Porsche and a Ford Escort both have four wheels that there are performance differences. That is all I'm saying when I say that all parts are not created equal. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1273 Registered: Feb-04 | Art, the question is rather whether reading bits off a CD with a DVD or CD laser compares to: - driving a Porsche and a Ford Escort at 100 mph. or - correctly reading the bits of a word file using a $400 PC or a $3000 PC. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1279 Registered: Feb-04 | I went into one of our two audio stores and the man suggested the Yamaha DVD-S1500 for C$600. It's a universal DVD player that: - uses 192KHz/24-bit DACs for all channels. - an audio direct mode can be selected to ensure that no interference from the video circuity will affect the sound. Has independent digital and analog power circuits. - CD upsampling raises the CD sampling rate, for a smoother sound. It enables CD playback to approach the quality of DVD-Audio. Once CD upsampling is selected, it is automatically engaged whenever a CD is played. (I don't know what this CD upsampling really does) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1548 Registered: Feb-05 | If you believe that Yamaha's performance meets your expectations then I would consider it. I'd bet money to marbles that the Denon DVD2910 for about the same money would out do it. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1285 Registered: Feb-04 | The Denon DVD-2910 is nearly twice the price (C$1000 vs C$600). Perhaps the Denon DVD-1920 would be priced similarly. |
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Silver Member Username: Arnold_layneMadridSpain Post Number: 422 Registered: Jun-04 | Upsampling is a technique for filtrering out unwanted artifacts. It can improve the CD sound, but of course not restore info that got lost when converting analogue sound to CD audio. Cheers AL |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1348 Registered: Feb-04 | Is it the same as oversampling (that has existed for years)? |
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Anonymous | As far as current model DVD players go, doesn't the whole debate end in January, when HD dvd comes out? Get whatever's cheap to last til then! |
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New member Username: ZibawalPost Number: 4 Registered: May-05 | Does any one know if US Denon 1920 does Pal to Ntsc? and Can be made Region Free? How about Pioneer 588as? |
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Silver Member Username: Arnold_layneMadridSpain Post Number: 423 Registered: Jun-04 | Upsampling and Oversampling are similiar techniques, here's some (contradicting) definitions of and differences between the two: http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/upandover.htm http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/upsamplingvsoversampling1.php Cheers AL |
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Been200mph Unregistered guest | I am so far quite happy with my Denon 1920. I wanted to step up to a unit that can do SACD on a budget, and it has done the job very well IMO. I had a 1910, and once I heard they were coming out with the new 1920 I wished I had waited...needless to say the 1910 is up for sale now. I use a 2105 receiver and Klipsch Reference speakers and a Klipsch Sub-12 for my main system. Denon did quite well at the price point they have the 1920 at. |
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New member Username: SamarthZurichSwitzerland Post Number: 1 Registered: Oct-05 | Hi guys, I am planning to buy Denon DVD 1920 universal player...but I need good CD playback quality..so also thinking to buy either Yamaha CDX 596 or Denon DCD 685 cd player... Does anyone know if any of these CD player will be really that different than Denon 1920? I have Yamaha RX-V550 receiver with Yamaha NS515F speakers and Yamaha YST-SW515 sub. |
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