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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1930 Registered: Aug-04 | "How can switching preset stations on the TUNER affect the AMP left channel...?" Stop listening to the socialist broadcasts LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1168 Registered: Dec-03 | Very good Rantz, very good. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3955 Registered: May-04 | If the problem never occurs when the tuner is plugged into the Sony, the problem has to be in the PrimaLuna. The best guess I can make is a bad contact that reacts to a small shift in voltage. At the price range of the amp I am going to assume it is a purely mechanical switch. If the contacts of the switch are not making good contact, the result is much like a dirty contact. A diode effect is created where signal is not passed until the contact is restored. This is quite strange and not a common occurence, but it wouldn't appear to be much else if the signal can be restored by "jiggling" the switch contacts. It may be a bad switch, it may be nothing more than a dirty switch. It could possibly be a cold solder joint at the connection to the switch itself acting as the diode. But if a bit of voltage change will cause the problem and a clean contact will restore it, in a mechanical switch I can't think of any other reason for this to happen. If the switch is purely electrical and only controlled by the position of the switch, then the problem would be in that circuit. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3183 Registered: Dec-03 | That's really good, Jan. I was thinking vaguely in that direction, but you are streets ahead, as usual. I have not encountered this sort of problem before, and will take it up with the dealer. The signal is perfect, and stable, after jiggling the control, just once. Also it is "all or none"- there is no intermediate position with any sort of degraded sound. I think our friends MR and Rick are getting political, again... I will take a closer look at the switch when I take the unit apart. BTW there is none of this "voids the warranty", "no customer-serviceable parts inside" nonsense, in fact there are directions about how to get in there to replace a fuse etc. should the need arise. I understand the phono card accessory even requires soldering in. Good. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3983 Registered: May-04 | Rick - Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about fans. There is no truly quiet fan that I know of. The best option I've found is to run a 220-240 volt fan off of 110-120 volts. This knocks the speed down to half and the noise with it. Since it only requires a bit of air circulation to make a noticeable difference this is usually the best solution. You will do best having the air drawn across the tubes by placing the intake side of the fan at the top of the tubes and exhaust the heat away from the tubes. It is far less efficient to use the exhaust side against the tubes. I put an inline switch on my fans and turn them off when I am listening to anything where the small amount of noise might intrude. I deal with a local outlet of a company called Graingers for products like this. They may not have stores in your exact area, but they have 17 locations in New York. Start there and see if they can help further. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/start.shtml With the proliferation of computer fans on the market, I don't see why you can't take an exhaust fan designed for a computer and run it off a wall wart type transformer to knock the volatge down to what you need. Probably any computer shop with a DIY department can help you there. Kegger may also have some resources in this area. http://www.1coolpc.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3990 Registered: May-04 | Has anyone heard from Kegger? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1957 Registered: Aug-04 | I was just thinking the same thing - I hope he hasn't electrocuted himself! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2477 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry guy's just a quick one right now to let everyone know I'm alive! THANKS! Were experiencing power outages here lately. I don't want to plug much in it's been going on for 5 days now! And I've been trying to fix some things around here since I could use the money and have all the time in the world. "Won't get into that last bit right now" But I've got plenty o time! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1959 Registered: Aug-04 | Oh no - not bad news I hope Kegger. Get back when you can. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1170 Registered: Dec-03 | Oh no Kegman! A temporary situation I hope....... |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1171 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thanks for the info. I'll let you know what I do. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3196 Registered: Dec-03 | I now have the new PLPL2. I am quite sure the old one got better during the two weeks I had it. If the dealer uses it for demos, they gained something from my home trial... I shall evaluate the new one. Plus the mains cable and the white gloves. I will also look for the map of Italy. I did not have time to ask about power cables. Will do this at another time. There seems to be a growing number of tube-output CD players. For example, there is a Jolida JD-100 reviewed in July "HiFi News". |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1966 Registered: Aug-04 | Congratulations John, I hope you have many years of musical pleasure with the PLPL2 and we'll look forward to a 'glowing' report. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 625 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, Good to hear you're still around. John A., Sorry for the late reply. I've experienced no crosstalk problem or channel dropping out with the PL, but then again I don't have a tuner hooked up to it. The PL has been foolproof for even this fool thus far. Hope yours delivers an equal measure of satisfaction. All the best. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3197 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks MR. Thanks also, 2c. They said in the shop that they really only ever hook up one input, so would not have heard crosstalk between input channels. As I said, it is a glitch I can live with. Before I took it back, I had the inputs: CD; Tuner; Aux 1 for TV; Aux 2 for Airport Express Base Station. My dear old FM tuner works well, but picks up RF from both of the Auxiliary sources, and also some noise from the CD player. This is not an amp issue. It could be the antenna I am using. Absence of interference will be one of the advantages of digital radio, I expect. It is always sobering to visit that dealer. They had Acoustic Research 200 monoblocks on display, apart from every McIntosh I have ever heard of and many exotic brands I have only ever seen pictures of, in magazines. The AR are 200 W tube power amps, making the PL look puny. Mrs A came with me and was incredulous that people have so much money to spend on "absurdly ugly" equipment... (She still questions my sanity over the PL, but my word does it sound better than the Sony ES, to which I reverted, briefly, while the PL was in transit - what a contrast) |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3209 Registered: Dec-03 | I have opened the box and installed the new PrimaLuna PL2. After some days back with Sony ES, I can be completely sure that all amps do not sound the same (Gregory?). And it is not subtle. "...But some are more equal than others" does not apply. And the PL wins, hands down. No question. Huge improvement. No glitches so far. I have not checked for channel crosstalk yet, but the stereo is stable on Tuner input. I am also now the proud owner of a pair of white gloves. However, no manual. Nor map of Italy. Also; it came with a serious-looking power cable with a continental European plug, requiring use of an adapter here, where we have superior, square-pin plugs with fuses, though the same basic supply (~230V at 50 Hz). The box appeared to be unopened, and also contained three spare internal fuses. Nice. The amp itself has different tubes/valves: they now have "PrimaLuna KT88" etc. etched, or maybe printed, on the glass, and look somewhat different. I should have made note of the previous ones. They are definitely different. Also wrapped differently, each having its own sheath of foam, on delivery. No manual means someone, somewhere, might just use the amp with the foam wraps still in place. That would be serious. Speaking of valves, there is manic review of "EAT" ("European Audio Team" - 'strewth) KT88s in July HiFi News. Made in Czech Republic. £288 per matched pair.... Wonder of these are those? That's about it. Fabulous amp. Wonderful sound. Recommended. I'll chase the dealer about the manual, an essential item. Thanks again, friends. Count me in. I must repeat that I have not compared the PL2 with any solid state amp of similar price, so cannot be completely sure, from my own experience, that this is a tube phenomenon. But I'd wager it is, and can honestly report the sound is blo*dy marvellous, for whatever reason. Who'd have thought it....? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2479 Registered: Dec-03 | Good stuff John welcome to the family! Rantz where's yours? And Larry how bout you? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1980 Registered: Aug-04 | Kegger No, I won't be joining the 'Tube" family I'm afraid, in my solid state life's just to darn good to risk going downhill. [grin] Hope things are okay for you Kegger???? John, You probably feel like I do at present: the B&W's are run in and the collusion between them, the DVD-2900 and the SR-7300 has created sound so sublime it's almost surreal. If I change anything, it may be the Sr-7300 for the SR-8500 but it would have to rain money for that occurrence. Enjoy! I thought Larry would be back by now - hope everything is okay in his camp. Larry - talk to us! Rick - are you lost in Orlando. Should we send out the air-boats or something? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1176 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, I'm still in New York. The Barnes family has been crazy busy the past few weeks. The house is about to go on the market. We will be residents of Orlando in the very near future. Do you think I'll be hot in that Goofy suit this time of year? Thanks Rantz! John, Welcome to the club, and many hours of sublime listening. Cheers! Kegger, Is everything OK? Stay well everyone................back to you soon. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4060 Registered: May-04 | Rick - You get to play Goofy or be Goofy? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1177 Registered: Dec-03 | According to my youngest daughter, both. LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4065 Registered: May-04 | Better that than Scrooge McDuck! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 415 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan have you seen the new tube surround amp from akai?? if so what do you think? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 416 Registered: Mar-05 | I read about it in my ht magazine and have not heard anything since, here's a link to the articlehttp://news.designtechnica.com/featured_article16_page6.html |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4067 Registered: May-04 | "One of the most unique audio products introduced at CES was AKAI's new AVR8500 ($899) and AVR8510 ($1,199) 7-Channel Vacuum Tube Audio/Video Receivers. Using its patented "Blue Tube Thermionic" design, it brings the "warm" sound of tube technology down to realistic price levels. Both receivers use 7 Dual Triode Vacuum tubes (one for each amplifier). Except for the included amplification and a universal remote on the 8510, both models include identical features. Model AVR8500 is rated at 100-watts x 7, and model AVR8510 is rated at 125-watts x 7. Besides including all current surround sound modes from both DTS and Dolby, both models also include HDMI switching capability." *************************** "7 Dual Triode Vacuum tubes (one for each amplifier)" means a small signal triode such as a 12AX7 or 6DJ8 placed in the signal path somewhere. Hopefully. Many years ago Luxman had two integrated amplifiers in the mass market that boasted tubes in the circuit. Luxman was well known in the high end for their earlier tube amplifiers which had been designed by Tim deParravinci. Since Lux had decided the modern consumer didn't want to deal with tube aging or reliability problems they placed the tubes outside of the signal path. The front panel of the amplifier had a small window where you could see the tubes glowing, but they did nothing more than that. For the price and features projected these are bipolar transistor amplifiers that are more than likely full of IC's. So without hearing them, I don't think too much of this game Akai is choosing to play. This might be good news to anyone who remembers Akai as a state of the art tube based open reel tape deck. But it would appear to be trading on a name and reputation where most buyers in the HT market probably have no memories to fuel. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 417 Registered: Mar-05 | So in your opinion the tubes are really on the signal side if at all and not on the power side? Considering there are 100-125 watts of power for each tube, there must be something fishy going on huh? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2480 Registered: Dec-03 | I agree JAN completly but reserve some hope for the unit and people who may be interested. I'm wondering/hoping if maybe the preamp section is using like a 12at7 or 6922 per channel then if it had preamp outs you'd have a 7.1 prepro that was tube in it's amplification and you could externally amplify if it had preamp outs like most units nowadays do, that would be cool and something I'd be very interested in! I'm trying to find out more about it. Having tubes in the preamp and solid state in the amp section is not all that bad considering what else you could do with the right inputs and outputs! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2481 Registered: Dec-03 | Joseph what Jan is saying is that the tubes might just be there for looks and not really doing anything or they could be in the preamp section which would be GOOD! Then there using solid state in the main amp section to get the 100-125 watts. IT's not that uncommon for an amp to have tube in the preamp section and solid state in the amp section. You still get tubes in the signal path but get more power and and less heat by using solid state in the amp section. I prefer tubes in all sections but I see how if this product is designed right that they may have a nice comprimise. An all tube amp output is very very hot and you would not want to enclose that in a reciever case that would be the reason for the small signal tubes being used inside and solid state for final amplication. There are many hibrid amps and some integrated amps that use tubes in the first stage of amplification and solid state in the final but this would be the first surround reciever that I have heard of if that's the case. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 419 Registered: Mar-05 | be nice if this thing has some quality, love to get my hands on a tube surround amp for under a grand. Especially if it's warm AND powerful. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2482 Registered: Dec-03 | Joseph Agree 100% with that statement! Could be the start of a new era? Let's hope! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4068 Registered: May-04 | I can only imagine what a seven channel (125 watt per) tube power amplifier would weigh with seven very large output transformers. The shipping costs from anywhere to your door would be the cost of these receivers. And the heat ... WOOODOGGIES!!! We'll have to wait to see more information, but I'm guessing the tubes do little to nothing to the signal. There will still be s.s. rectification and all the signal processing will be done by chip technology. OK, here I go taking a deep breath. ihopekeggerfindssomethingoutsoonican'tdothisforlong. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2483 Registered: Dec-03 | At the moment Jan I don't find much info, you better start breathing! We may need yu farther darn the road there pal! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1982 Registered: Aug-04 | Better call 911! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4072 Registered: May-04 | OHMYGOD!!!!! That's much better. Things were beginning to spin. wheeze ..... rattle .... wheeze ..... rattle OK, I wait patiently with baited breadth. (Shall we all go there again?) |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3211 Registered: Dec-03 | It probably safer just to sit on the edge of your seat, Jan. I suppose one could get a tube 5.1 pre-amp (Copland, for example, make one) and then three tube stereo power amps. Or six monoblocks. It would get expensive. Also one should check one's fire insurance. Let me go into "buy what I did" mode and suggest a PrimaLuna integrated stereo tube amp or an equivalent from another maker is a better way to spend a grand - even for movies. Dialogue is crystal clear. With good speakers there are surprisingly good surround effects on movies, even when the actual source is only two speakers, in front of you. If you really want to pin-point the exact position of a circling helicopter at any time, then go for 5.1 or more. But the general impression is all most sane people require. And there are other things about movies, like can you hear the words, and does it move you? Anyway, joseph, you could just get three stereo amps, as long as you have all the processing you need in the DVD player. Unlike Jan, I am not against surround, but it is a small bonus for what it costs. Much better to get decent stereo, in most cases. That is my view, now. BTW dealer massively helpful with missing PrimaLuna owner manual, not to mention apologetic. His problem was the distributor shipped the manuals, previously, separately from the units, and the serial numbers did not correspond. He was assured they had fixed that, and the corrrect manual would now be in the box, which he probably guessed, correctly, I would now prefer "as is". I assume they print manuals in different languages for different European markets. I shall write and point out my manual is in US English. One can so easily tell the difference with a valve/tube amp.... ("Vacuum tube" still seems a silly name, to, me, suggesting "Hoovers", or the thing a dentist uses to remove saliva from your mouth). Dealer also provided, free, a replacement power cord with UK plug, fitted with 5A fuse. I will change it to 3A. Dealer also keen to know if channel breakthrough still there in new model. Will try it, and let him know. And you! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1983 Registered: Aug-04 | "But the general impression is all most sane people require." I'll make an appointment tomorow John. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1179 Registered: Dec-03 | There is only one known cure, guarded by a select group. LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3212 Registered: Dec-03 | Book me in too, please, MR. BTW five tube monoblocks would be enough. Unless one wants tube power in the sub, too. I will still wager 4.0 is good. When we have some more room and time I will try it. If it works, two stereo tube amps (or four monoblocks) would be enough for all-tube surround sound. Please call the sanity inspector, someone. He has lots to do on this thread. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2484 Registered: Dec-03 | Joseph Listening to the ramblings of the insain here will make you go crazy! LOL! If this unit or something simular turns out to be a decent unit using tubes in the preamp section if you wanted a good setup for stereo out of it you just run a tube amp or a pair of mono blocks on the front channels using the preamp outs. Then you'd have a tube preamp with tube amp output running your main speakers. Speaking from experience with an all tube amp 7.1 surround "except sub"! It sounds really nice but I believe it is overkill and that all 4 of your rear speakers don't need nor do you really hear a difference being tube powered, tubes in the preamp section would be just fine. Not to mention the space they take up and the HEAT created! If I got a unit like one of these were talking about and it truly did what we hope I would run it this way. Use the internal amps on all the surround spkr's and run my tube amps on the left right and center channels outputs for all 3 accross the front running high quality tube amps. You could use the internal amps to maybe do the biamp thing with solidstate adding some extra bass and or use the center channel solid state output to run a sub on your center channel. If your planning on using this for movies then for me 7.1 is awsome when setup the right way and utilizing the correct gear. The extra rear channels give you the ability to use a pair of speakers just behind the listening area and to the side then you run a pair of rears behind you which gives you the full effect of what the surround can offer. Also I can't stress this enough your center channel speaker needs to match your front speakers as close as possable and be of good size (at least 6.5" drivers) to be able to carry a large portion of the frequecy spectrum adaquitly plus provide some bass. Wimpy center channels don't cut it anymore, there is to much dynamics in the digital surround domain these days not to mention what sacd/dvd-audio provide. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1984 Registered: Aug-04 | "Also I can't stress this enough your center channel speaker needs to match your front speakers as close as possable and be of good size (at least 6.5" drivers) to be able to carry a large portion of the frequecy spectrum adaquitly plus provide some bass. Wimpy center channels don't cut it anymore, there is to much dynamics in the digital surround domain these days not to mention what sacd/dvd-audio provide." Kegger's so right on about this point. Also imho, unless one has all speakers with a huge frequency range (down to the low 30hz's) then a good sub is also important - not only for movies but for music - especially the hi-res formats. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1180 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm getting dizzy............. I think I'm going to pass out............................... |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1986 Registered: Aug-04 | Rick No one here is going to give you mouth to mouth - so forget it! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4081 Registered: May-04 | Oh, Lord! I smell surround sound. Who did that? EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1987 Registered: Aug-04 | Jan, If you smell surround sound then I suggest your breathing problem stems from blocked ears. Also, if you find reading is becoming more difficult, try opening your mouth a little wider. I told you the radiation from your tube amp will affect your metabolism! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1181 Registered: Dec-03 | Forgive them Jan, for they know not what they do......... You have spoken the gospel according to 2 channel and tubes, but no-INFIDELS! Are we going to drag all this over here too? Jan help me. I just don't have the strength........ |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1988 Registered: Aug-04 | My apologies |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1182 Registered: Dec-03 | Accepted......LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4089 Registered: May-04 | Awwww, Man, light some matches or something! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3214 Registered: Dec-03 | I can report total absence of breakthrough of different channel inputs on the replacement Prologue Two, but a worrying breakthrough of topics between threads. Not sure what to do about that. BTW "Pathos" has a "Cinema X" five-channel integrated, but the power stages are solid state. http://www.ukd.co.uk/ Is there any true 5-channel tube amp? Does one have to renounce 5.1 if one prefers tubes? Or vice versa? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3221 Registered: Dec-03 | I said I would report back. The Prologue Two has no input channel breathrough whatever, and no channel loss of any sort on any input. While registering, by e-mail, I mentioned a couple of problems with the unit I had demo'd at home. One of the manual signatories at DUROB AUDIO BV mailed back immediately, in person, to ask what these were, and saying they were surprised, they take every effort with reliability etc. So I told him, and suggested there was a fault with the input selector. He agreed, and mailed the whole correspondence to the UK distributor and the dealer, so they will get the demo unit back, to check and repair. Not bad, these days! This is yet another factor about buying through a dealer. Someone who knows you, the customer, takes responsibility for glitches (mains cable, manual etc.) The dealer, too, seemed concerned about the breakthrough, and I'll bet he verfies this in the shop; also checks other units. If I'd bought direct, as with some other "entry level" tube amps, I would have had to pay all the delivery charges, and never known if the replacement would have the same fault. How many times would you pay to return the unit before deciding it was inherent in the design, or not worth pursuing? Anyway, the replacement Prologue Two is faultless as far as I can ascertain. Still recommended. Warmly. Glowingly. It is one really hot amp. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4109 Registered: May-04 | Does Mrs. A give her recommendation also? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1992 Registered: Aug-04 | Or does she think, as a bed warmer, it's a bit bulky? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4114 Registered: May-04 | Not relevant; she probably thinks that of John. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1188 Registered: Dec-03 | LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3223 Registered: Dec-03 | Oh yes, naturally. She is still unconvinced about the amp, however. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1192 Registered: Dec-03 | Very good John! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 627 Registered: Feb-04 | Maybe not the most objective source, but interesting news reported from the U.S. distributor of Primaluna attesting to its reliability (6/9/05 news): http://www.upscaleaudio.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3225 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Two Cents. My dealer said they have been selling Prologues One and Two and had no problems at all. They seemed concerned. That is a recommendation. The unit I have now seems totally OK. And the sound continues to impress me, whatever the source. Here is a puzzle. Over the years I have got used to the idea that my amp gain control setting will be lower for CD than tuner. I just assumed the CD players I have owned had a higher output. In the last system, I was using the same input straight into the Sony power amp, and routinely had the amp at, say, 1 o'clock for tuner input to give the same sort of volume I got from CD with the amp volume at 11.30. Now, the PrimaLuna manual says there is no functional difference between the four inputs, but I find I get roughly the same volume from the same volume control setting on CD and tuner. Can anyone explain this? Has anyone else experienced this? This is quite apart from everything sounding a whole lot better. Am I hearing more detail from CD and not having to rack the volume up to compensate? But, if so, why only CD? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4141 Registered: May-04 | John - It would appear your CD player has decided it needn't try as hard with the tubes as it felt it must with the Sony. I'm certain the CD player feels a sense of relief in seeing the tubes and has relaxed a bit. No? It is difficult to determine what dB difference there is between the inputs on the Sony based strictly on the position of the volume control. Since any linear taper pot will have a varying amount of gain relative to its position what may be 3dB difference between 9 and 11 O'Clock (AM, of course) isn't necessarily 3dB between 11 and 1. The answer probably could be found by examining the input and output voltages, impedances and sensitivities of the sources against the pre amp sections of both integrated amps. While the PrimaLuna claims similarity on all inputs, the Sony may have added additonal gains stages, or simply amounts, to one or more inputs. To begin to determine which, if any, of these possibilities might be the case, you would have to hook the Sony back up and swap inputs between tuner and CD. If the answer is in the impedance match between amplifiers and source, even this is unlikely to prove conclusive. Just for your information, I find when I am faced with such imponderables another Chivas is of great assistance. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3228 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Jan. With the Sony, I was using the same input - the switch was via an RCA switch box which I took apart, and that is all it is; a switch in a box. Now, I can understand the CD player feeling a sense of relief at supplying a signal to a better amp, but I cannot understand why the tuner should not feel the same way. It is a wise and discerning old tuner. Family took me out for walk along the river, and dinner. Father's day here; what a nice idea. May try a small scotch, and perhaps the solution will come. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1194 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, I just wanted to drop in quickly say hello. Jan-Being the constant tweaker that I am, I tried turning my speakers on their sides (horizontal). I used the same short stands, and cone for tilt back. The result in a word? WOW! The imaging was much for defined and the soundstage widened considerably. I placed them tweeters in. I'll try reversing them and post the results. Are you still using your LS3/5a's in this placement? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4194 Registered: May-04 | Yes and no. In the back room they didn't do as well on the floor. I'll try again once I get the final floor treatments in place. Right now they are on their side with the tweeters to the outside and about 36" to the tweeter height. As I said when we first began this experiment I can only guess that the X-over has some lobing that isn't as happy when placed close to the floor and upright. The horizontal position seems to change everything in terms of soundstaging and solidity of the space. The largest and most annoying problem I had with the 3/5a's in the upright position and on the floor was every now and then a male vocal would hit a note that seemed to dive down towards the floor and then back up when he moved to the next note. It became almost as if I was listening to music during a rasslin' match and the vocalist was getting body slammed to the canvas every now and again. As much as I like rasslin' it became too annoying. (Well, used to like rasslin' - when it was real.) Play with the toe in when you move the speakers. In the front room the 3/5a's got toed in rather severely. In the back room they are straight ahead. Have you done any specific type of speaker set up or just what sounds good to your ears? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2013 Registered: Aug-04 | And Rick, when your new career in Orlando begins your speaker set-up may need tweaking again - depending on whether you will be Mickey or Goofy. Both have vastly different ear configurations. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1195 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, I kept the slightly toed in position I used when they were upright. No other changes to the speaker positioning. They are 7' apart, 3' forward of the back wall, and approx. 4' from the side walls. I sit 9' away from the speakers. Rantz, LOL! I told you guys-Goofy! I'm too tall to play Mickey. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4199 Registered: May-04 | Indubidoubly! I thought we had determined Rick is permanently Goofy. Sir Goof - Read this: http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1196 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thanks for the link. That's pretty much the way I have always set up my speakers. There may be a problem in Tubeville! I fired up the Jolida this morning and the power on LED is out. The amp works fine. I hate to send it out to replace a LED, but a tube amp is something I don't want to start poking around inside with. Any suggestions? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4201 Registered: May-04 | The best suggestion I have is to call the dealer. An LED is not a big deal in terms of replacement; you won't be in the vicinty of any of the power supply caps that have the high voltages. Unless you think you'd drop the pliers, the screwdriver and the soldering iron into the amp, you can manage the job yourelf. Probably, if the dealer does their own service, you can schedule an appointment to bring the amp in and listen to some music while they replace the LED. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1197 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, What do you know about Sophia Electric? If you get a chance go to: www.sophiaelectric.com check out the model "Baby" and give me your thoughts/impressions. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3251 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick; Unplug from power supply and leave it for half an hour to cool down and for caps to discharge. Examine the case for screw-heads, usually cross-point. Get in there. Look around. Common sense and caution are enough. The manual may have something to say. An LED may be easy to locate and replace. If not, at least you now know the score. Re-assemble by reversing procedure for disassembly. It is therapeutic, I promise! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4228 Registered: May-04 | Rick - I don't know anything about S.E.T. other than the little bit I've read - which, by the way, is about 1/20th of what is supplied on their web page. I dd read all the verbiage on the web site. "Amamzing", "clean, tight bass, endearing midrange and impressively extended highs", "the Sophia's bass was quick and well-controlled", "Music was very clean, detailed, and fast paced", and "very solid imagine and quite good soundscape ability." The problem with that is you could find dozens of reviews which say basically the same thing about dozens of amplifiers. Obviously 10 watts is a step down from the amount of power you now use. At this point you are the best judge of what will happen when you move down in power. The amp does appear to get a bit bright when pushed. If anything, the reviews seem to indicate the most apparent result of building to a budget is the amp shows its limitations when pushed hard. I don't have a problem with that; most budget amps have similar reactions. It does, however, make me a bit more interested in the company's EL34 based amp for a few dollars more. As the reviews all point out, particularly the TNT review, it is system matching that makes budget equipment work. Only you can tell whether the amp will work with what you already own. (I was very suprised to read the amp did well with Magnepans.) Whether it will be too forward or not forward enough. Whether the soundstage is wider or deeper or more "palpable" than the Jolida, I can't say from what I read. Construction seems to be very good for the money; though once again you can find that said about many budget amps. The factory upgrades can take this out of the realm of a budget product though. Why don't we turn this around and you tell me what you're thinking. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1200 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, I'm at the point where I know what the strengths and weaknesses of the Jolida are. The major thing it does not do well is reproduce the human voice. At just looking at the specs, the Jolida has a S/N ratio of 70dB, the Baby is 95dB. The Baby also is pure class A. While I have my doubts as to driving the 3/5's, I'm thinking about pairing the Baby with an Omega speaker. There I would be looking at a speaker with a 95-96dB rating @ 8 Ohms. I think what I'm trying to do is work my way down in power, all the way to an SET. Only then can I really make up my mind as to what I really want in a tube amp. I don't know why but I have this thing against tube amps with lots of power. I feel they lose their lushness for lack of a better word. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4233 Registered: May-04 | The problem with S/N specs is they can look very different depending on how you weight them. I don't know which weighting system either manufacturer uses. Are you hearing too much noise from the Jolida or suspect you might with a more efficient speaker? Power is a relative thing. It's only really important when you don't have enough. (Yes, John, I know exactly how that sounds.) A lush, on the other hand ... is also a relative thing all too often; an uncle or a grandmom who likes those Negronis a little too much. If you are thinking SET, why not just do SET and not mess with anything along the way. Though I wouldn't expect the Joilda and the Sophia to sound the same, you have an idea what push-pull EL84's sound like. If you feel the Jolida lacks in the middle, I would discuss this with the shop where you made the purchase. I can only assume they would have a suggestion of a few caps that could be changed to make the amp sound more as you would like. You've also swapped tubes; have you traded midrange for some other area as you did this? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1201 Registered: Dec-03 | It's only important when you don't have enough...... To hear you say that made my day, but that's a whole other subject. I have no problem with the midrange on the Jolida. With the NOS tubes and the Spendors, I have a midrange that is like pure cane sugar. What is does with any tube combo is roll off the highs, and doesn't do vocals well, male or female. With the Sophia I think I'll keep the silky mids with a more forward and precise vocal presentation. I could send the Jolida back to Response Audio for some mods, but I have an opportunity to buy a "Baby" for the price of the mods. I also want to hear either amp with the Omega's. I think I'll order them with Alnico magnets. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4235 Registered: May-04 | Sounds good. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3257 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, It seems to me that Sophia "Baby" amp is made for "horn", single-driver, high-efficiency speakers. 10 W per channel for 95-96 dB speakers is surely not enough. For 112 dB speakers, yes. It is all very interesting. Good luck! "The major thing it does not do well is reproduce the human voice. " That is a serious charge! About that LED.... Wish I could pop over and take a look! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2020 Registered: Aug-04 | John, I'm sure you can still find LED lights in England - they're not that interesting really. Much the same as watching a barn plank warp. LOL! Rick, So the Jolida ain't so jolly with human voices - sell it to a rapper. LOL (again). |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1202 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks All! John, I've decided the LED is a non issue. I like the amp better without it. Now I have only the glow of the tubes. On the issue of power. Keep in mind, this is 10 watts of "tube" power. Most listen to music at some where around 85dB SPL. A speaker with 95-96dB rating would need no more than 2-4 watts in a medium room to be at very LOUD listening levels. The speakers I'm considering are a single driver-no crossover design. I'll keep you all posted. As far as the Jolida not doing vocals well. I'm sure most could live with the amp and it not be an issue. I'ts just my insanity kicking in again.................LOL! Just when you think your system is perfectly fine, it's time to move on. That's why they call this a hobby. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2021 Registered: Aug-04 | Yes Rick - when I heard a cd being played with a tube amp and a pair of small bookshelf speakers at a reasonable volume level last week, I commented to the audio shop owner about the power. I guessed about 30 watts rms and he said, "How about 3 watts?" I didn't occur to me until I was driving away to ask about the speaker's sensitivity. Duh! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4238 Registered: May-04 | Why Omegas? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1204 Registered: Dec-03 | On an endorsement from Bill Baker @ Response Audio. The reviews have been great also. I have never been big fan of Klipsch, and am not ready for the Lamm monoblock SET's or the Avantegarde horns just yet. Is there something I should audition that you like in the 95+dB range? Rantz, 6 months ago I didn't really understand when Jan said it's the first watt that counts. Now I can appreciate listening to music @90dB using less than 1 watt of pure class A power. Ah! the pure sweet sound.................. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3259 Registered: Dec-03 | Cool. I appreciate all these fine points, Rick. But, just occasionally, I like to be blown out of my chair, and with zero distortion. Yes, who needs an LED? I am enjoying the glow of KT88s. They have a sort of blue halo... BTW this is a great thread! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4240 Registered: May-04 | The Omegas have caught on with the 2 watt crowd. They use Fostex drivers which can be had over the counter and are used in many diy and other companies' products. I haven't sat down and done any calculations but the last time I looked I was a bit amazed at what some of the complete speaker package manufacturers are charging considering, with no X-over, they are basically just mounting one full range driver in an enclosure. I'm not seeing a cost to price ratio that makes sense to me yet. I'll look again. Have you investigated any speakers using the Lowther drivers? Same basic idea; a full range driver with no X-over. The Lowthers have been around for years and, from everything I know, are regarded as the better quality product vs. the Fostex. However, both seem to get high marks overall. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4242 Registered: May-04 | Rick - Have you seen these from Nelson Pass? http://www.passdiy.com/ As you can see in the picture, he uses the horns with these subs: http://www.passdiy.com/projects/el-pipe-o-1.htm You might want to hold off on these until after you move. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4243 Registered: May-04 | Sorry, forgot to mention that's a Lowther driver he's using in the horns. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1205 Registered: Dec-03 | Don't tease me.... I want them NOW!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1206 Registered: Dec-03 | My wife just looked over my shoulder, saw the photo and just passed out........ Where the hell did I put the smelling salts? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3262 Registered: Dec-03 | Over here there is always Beauhorn http://www.beauhorn.com This is great, Jan and Rick; I laughed at loud at Rick's post, Mrs A came to see, and now thinks the Quads are reasonable. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2024 Registered: Aug-04 | The photo of those horns only goes to show what we all suspected. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1207 Registered: Dec-03 | What's that Rantz? That size really does matter? How sad for us! LOL!!! Am I the only one seeing a trend here? Why is it the smaller your amp gets on power, the bigger your speakers have to be? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2025 Registered: Aug-04 | "What's that Rantz? That size really does matter?" No Rick - that we are just plain nuts! LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1209 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thanks a lot. I couldn't find smelling salts. I had to use ammonia. She came around and said thank your friend in Texas, because I'm going to have to look for a bigger home now. So the bottom line is your photo just cost me an extra $100,000. John, Looks like I just helped you big time with the WAF. Please feel free to mail a check. Looks like I will need it! LOL!! Rantz, Yes we are! LOL!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4245 Registered: May-04 | Rick - It's only money. As long as Mrs. B. is happy and you have your hifi, what's the problem? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1210 Registered: Dec-03 | No problem at all my friend. Thanks for getting to the heart of the matter. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1211 Registered: Dec-03 | KEGGER.............WHERE ARE YOU???????? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3263 Registered: Dec-03 | And SM.... |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2486 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm not getting emails from this sight lately and have been trying to figure other things out around here these days, so I just haven't been around. Miss you guy's -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------- I have to agree with Jan on this! "The Omegas have caught on with the 2 watt crowd. They use Fostex drivers which can be had over the counter and are used in many diy and other companies' products. I haven't sat down and done any calculations but the last time I looked I was a bit amazed at what some of the complete speaker package manufacturers are charging considering, with no X-over, they are basically just mounting one full range driver in an enclosure. I'm not seeing a cost to price ratio that makes sense to me yet. I'll look again." ------------------------------------------------------ For what's put into these things I don't see where the cost comes from. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Yu all know I'm running 8 watts of SET 300B tube power and just lately I found a pair of DCM time frame 600's at a garage sale very cheap. There only 92DB effeciency. But I still only need to turn it up about 1/3 of the way to get quite loud to where it seems they need no more power. So I would say that a 95DB speaker that is easy to drive "uncomplicated xover" would be driven by about 8 watts of glorious set power with no problem! But I still like solid state watts added for the real low bass to be provided by the sub, that I believe the lower powered tube amps and there speakers that they power lack in this area. For me the only area where low power tube amps and some high power tubes really do not shine is the real driving bass notes, the bass that is there sounds great but it just doesn't kick or slam the way high powered solid state does. FOR ME! But I love the richness in the music that a good tube amp provides and SET just seems to provide more of it. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1212 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, I have been doing a lot of reading on the Lowthers. From your experience would you choose them over Fostex's? As far as the cost to price ratio goes for complete packages it's about the same as the Omega's. Too bad I'm not a DIY guy. As far as the S.E.T. Baby, it's on the way. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4269 Registered: May-04 | Rick - I have not heard a Fostex driver or an Omega speaker. The Omegas get very good write ups and the Fostex drivers seem to accepted as the speaker of choice if you're not going the Lowther route. As with all things third world, the production costs seem to make the Fostex the cost consideration winner. The last time I heard a Lowther driver was in a shop that handled Bozaks and Studer open reels. I have no idea what the current line of Lowthers sounds like. Their drivers are a bit more expensive from what I see. But they also appear to be the gold standard of single driver designs. I see this as somewhat the same as Russian vs. Chinese tubes. Buying by the country isn't a guaranty of good sound as there are plenty of Oriental selections that sound good. But there's lots to be said for doing something a long time. As to the diy, it is very difficult to see the cost to price ratio for single driver speakers. It is reasonably easy to get a cabinet shop to build your enclosures from a plan off the internet. That only leaves you to put the drivers and connectors in place. Just a thought. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2042 Registered: Aug-04 | http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/dk-design-vs1-integrated-amp-6-2005.h tml You guys might be interested in this review about a tube/solid state integrated from the DK Design Group. Impressive amp and interesting review. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1216 Registered: Dec-03 | Wow! 1000 posts...... I never thought this thread would generate this much interest. Kudos to all who post here, with special thanks to Jan and Kegger, for their input and wisdom, in helping us find our way in the world of tube/valve amplification. Cheers! |